SurfRider Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 "Sure. I am talking about opening a brokerage account not a bank account" Thanks! -- That's VERY VALUABLE INFORMATION! I have two brokerage accounts with ET and they gave me a VISA Debit Card, but I've never used it because I also have an ET checking account debit card. You've just opened a whole new world of possibility for those who choose to seek it ( of course there will still always be those who will continue to justify the usury fee and enjoy paying it . . . ) [ TiT ] . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfRider Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 "Yesterday I withdrew 10,500 baht at GSB. My account was debited $309.28. So that is an exchange rate of 33.949. On top of that, I received a reimbursement of $4.28, which I assume is the Visa transaction fee." Not to be critical, but something doesn't sound right about the numbers you reported. If you used your card in a GSB ATM there should not have been any Thai Usury Fee applied, since GSB is fee-free. If they debited 309.28 and credited 4.28, the net debit was $305, which gave you an effective exchange rate of 34.43 Baht / US$ The current rate is around 34.05 to 34.14, so you either hit the jackpot or BOI credited you for a fee that they never charged. Could you re-check the numbers and let us know if you accidentally discovered a gold mine? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimpy Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 It is not a Thai Usury Fee. It is a Visa Usury Fee. Any time you use your Visa branded card overseas, Visa charges a fee. According to this transaction, it appears to be about 1.4%. Bank of Internet refunds those fees. This is from my statement. You do the math. The amount was 10,500 baht. "Yesterday I withdrew 10,500 baht at GSB. My account was debited $309.28. So that is an exchange rate of 33.949. On top of that, I received a reimbursement of $4.28, which I assume is the Visa transaction fee."Not to be critical, but something doesn't sound right about the numbers you reported. If you used your card in a GSB ATM there should not have been any Thai Usury Fee applied, since GSB is fee-free. If they debited 309.28 and credited 4.28, the net debit was $305, which gave you an effective exchange rate of 34.43 Baht / US$ The current rate is around 34.05 to 34.14, so you either hit the jackpot or BOI credited you for a fee that they never charged. Could you re-check the numbers and let us know if you accidentally discovered a gold mine? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimpy Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Here are a couple of 10,000 baht transactions from last month. One from Bank of Ayudhya (done as an experiment) to see if my bank would refund the 150 baht fee. The other is from GSB. I received a refund of the Visa international transaction fee on both, but was not refunded the Bank of Ayudhya 150 baht fee which they hid in the exchange rate (I suppose). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfRider Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 "Visa charges a fee. According to this transaction, it appears to be about 1.4%. Bank of Internet refunds those fees." Sorry, since the dollar amount was about the same as the Thai ATM fee, I assumed that was what they were refunding. I guess it's not clear what the NET DEBIT was -- was the 309.28 amount BEFORE or AFTER the $4.28 credit was applied? If $305 was the Net Debit, you got the best deal available on the planet! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimpy Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 On a bank statement you have a column of debits and a column of credits. They are independent of each other. So the net debit was $305.00 for 10,500 baht. "Visa charges a fee. According to this transaction, it appears to be about 1.4%. Bank of Internet refunds those fees."Sorry, since the dollar amount was about the same as the Thai ATM fee, I assumed that was what they were refunding. I guess it's not clear what the NET DEBIT was -- was the 309.28 amount BEFORE or AFTER the $4.28 credit was applied? If $305 was the Net Debit, you got the best deal available on the planet! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfRider Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 "the net debit was $305.00 for 10,500 baht." Thanks, so be it! -- It looks like you've discovered the Internet gold mine. It will be interesting to see JFC and others comments on this transaction and how BOI can afford to give an exchange rate that is considerably above the going rate. Exclusive of the $8 monthly refund limit, this appears to beat both E-Trade and Schwab. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockneyrebel Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Here are a couple of 10,000 baht transactions from last month. One from Bank of Ayudhya (done as an experiment) to see if my bank would refund the 150 baht fee. The other is from GSB. I received a refund of the Visa international transaction fee on both, but was not refunded the Bank of Ayudhya 150 baht fee which they hid in the exchange rate (I suppose). as far as i know Bank of Ayudhya is now the only one that doe's not charge the fee , it never has done for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimpy Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) Here are a couple of 10,000 baht transactions from last month. One from Bank of Ayudhya (done as an experiment) to see if my bank would refund the 150 baht fee. The other is from GSB. I received a refund of the Visa international transaction fee on both, but was not refunded the Bank of Ayudhya 150 baht fee which they hid in the exchange rate (I suppose). as far as i know Bank of Ayudhya is now the only one that doe's not charge the fee , it never has done for me They charged me. It was listed on the ATM receipt. Just look at the difference in the amount debited on those two transactions. Edited July 2, 2009 by wimpy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockneyrebel Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Here are a couple of 10,000 baht transactions from last month. One from Bank of Ayudhya (done as an experiment) to see if my bank would refund the 150 baht fee. The other is from GSB. I received a refund of the Visa international transaction fee on both, but was not refunded the Bank of Ayudhya 150 baht fee which they hid in the exchange rate (I suppose). as far as i know Bank of Ayudhya is now the only one that doe's not charge the fee , it never has done for me They charged me. It was listed on the ATM receipt. Just look at the difference in the amount debited on those two transactions. got 10 k out 3 hours ago no fee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimpy Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 got 10 k out 3 hours ago no fee I would be interested to know what type of card you used, and what exchange rate you received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I always enjoy it when members suddenly pop in with off-the-cuff, and totally erroneous, comments.... CockneyRebel, it may be as far as you know... But as far as everyone else here in concerned... In Thailand, Government Savings Bank (Visa cards only), AEON and United Overseas Bank (UOB) remain fee-free ATMs... (That means no 150 baht withdrawal charge). There continue to be conflicting reports regarding Bank of Ayudhya ATMs. Some TV members have shown and documented getting charged the ATM fee. Others insist they're remaining fee-free. In Ayudhya's case, it may be a case of them taking time to gradually convert over all the ATMs to their new fee system. as far as i know Bank of Ayudhya is now the only one that doe's not charge the fee , it never has done for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vagabond48 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 There continue to be conflicting reports regarding Bank of Ayudhya ATMs. Some TV members have shown and documented getting charged the ATM fee. Others insist they're remaining fee-free. In Ayudhya's case, it may be a case of them taking time to gradually convert over all the ATMs to their new fee system. I realize this is Thailand but why would there be any need to convert ATMs. I would think any fee change would be software driven managed at the server level not the local machine level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm not sure exactly what's going on with Wimpy's Bank of Internet withdrawals as listed above.... But I have a couple of assumptions... --Regarding the 10,000 baht double withdrawal, one from GSB and one from Ayudhya in early June, I believe you were correct in guessing that, at least in terms of the way it got reported back to your home bank, Ayudhya was hiding a 150 baht fee or the equivalent of it into your exchange rate. On June 3, you got a 34.06 rate at GSB (10K baht for $293.57). The X-Rates average IER for that day was 34.045, so that's a good deal and makes sense. The next day on June 4, you got a 33.45 rate from Ayudhya (10K baht for $298.97) (leaving aside for the moment, on both cases, the separate fee refunds listed). If we were to increase your withdrawal amount to 10,150 (10K plus a 150 baht fee), the effective exchange rate would have been 33.949, almost the same as the GSB rate from the day before. The X-Rates average IER for June 4 was 34.15. --Regarding the $3.97 fee refund for the Ayudhya withdrawal and the $3.57 fee refund for the Government Savings Bank withdrawal, I don't believe those are Thai bank ATM fees. In part, because, we all know GSB wasn't then, and isn't now, charging any ATM fees for foreign cards. The listed fee amounts seem to work out to different percentages, 1.327% in the Ayudhya withdrawal and 1.216% for the GSB withdrawal, if I did my math correctly. So I'm assuming most of those amounts are the 1% fee that VISA tacks on foreign transactions, then Bank of Internet is refunding back to you under their reimbursement policy. But what I can't figure out is where/how those fees got assessed in the first place. As ST said, if you were to add those fee amounts into your original withdrawal amounts, the resulting exchange rates would be way over the market rates for those days. So that makes so sense. I'm assuming, then, BofI is showing you what they saved you by BofI covering the VISA fee instead of them being deducted from your funds, and thus giving you pretty much the full exchange rate on your withdrawals. Wimpy, those two refund amounts almost together amount to Bank of Internet's $8 month reimbursement limit. I'm curious to know, did you have any other Thailand ATM withdrawals during the remainder of June using that account, and what if anything happened with those withdrawals in terms of getting or not getting fee refunds. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimpy Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Wimpy, those two refund amounts almost together amount to Bank of Internet's $8 month reimbursement limit. I'm curious to know, did you have any other Thailand ATM withdrawals during the remainder of June using that account, and what if anything happened with those withdrawals in terms of getting or not getting fee refunds. Thanks... Yes. I got one more atm service charge reversal of $0.46, bringing it to a total of $8.00 in reversals in the month of June. Subsequent atm withdrawals received no atm fee reversals during June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samui04 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 1,145 postings, more than 42,000 hits because of an ATM fee which is peanuts in comparison what losses people incurred due to the financial crisis (and their lack of action) and much more important peanuts in comparison what losses people could avoid and in fact GAIN due to the financial crisis. 1500 and counting.... i use ATM two times a month, max amount becouse in Italy we paid ATM use since when we are born (and becouse hotel do not like VIsa) so i'm down 300b per month (a pizza without beer....). how much is a taxi in Samui? now i will ask hotel to take Visa, but i'm sure the surcharge and the robbery from Visa exchange rate will take me back to the ATM machine....apart Tesco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I would think that also, Vagabond. But I recall here earlier in this thread, another TV member saying he had talked with the manager of his local Ayudhya brand, and the manager reportedly telling him the reason some ATMs were charging fees and some weren't was that it was taking the bank time to convert all of their systems to the new fee. Why that is (if it is true), I certainly can't explain. Otherwise, I can't account at all for the continuing, conflicting reports of some Ayudhya users saying they're getting charged the 150 baht fee, and others continuing to report they're making ATM withdrawals at Ayudhya fee-free.... There continue to be conflicting reports regarding Bank of Ayudhya ATMs. I realize this is Thailand but why would there be any need to convert ATMs. I would think any fee change would be software driven managed at the server level not the local machine level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfRider Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Since it has been indicated here that anyone can open an E-Trade *BROKERAGE* account regardless of where you live on the planet -- and get an ET VISA Debit Card with it-- below is a suggestion for anyone who wants to take advantage of ET's premium currency exchange rates and ATM fee refund policy. ( which, as everyone should know by now, can be avoided in Siam by using fee-free ATMs ) ET appears to indicate that a Brokerage Account can be opened for as little as US$1000 -- ( This needs more research since they have many options for different types of accounts ) For those who don't want to park money in an account that pays very little interest, they could use the funds to buy Stock in very solid US companies who won't be going out of business or be in danger of being affected in any serious way by the fluctuations in the US economy. Below are three examples of companies that are currently paying dividends on a regular basis in the 5% to 6% range -- there are many other such companies -- some paying even higher yields. American Electric Power - Dividend Yield 5.76% Duke Energy Corp. - Dividend Yield 6.62% Verizon Communications - Dividend Yield 6.07% Funds can be transferred into and out of an ET Brokerage Account on-line and can be withdrawn via the ATM Debit Card at any time. I won't go into any more detail at this point. Some people will see the opportunity and others won't. ( Yes, I realize that the NAAMs of the world and other nay-sayers will attack this suggestion, so go for it! ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaimai Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Chaimai..you reported doing the original withdrawal on June 23, and reported the final rate here on July 2.But what date did the actual transaction post on, in your online banking... that would help narrow the appropriate exchange rate comparison period... I'm guessing it didn't take your bank until July 2 to process the transaction. thanks.... Kasikorn 20,000 over the counter today with Nationwide VISA debit card. No charge and 'blocked' rate 55.42. Will check tomorrow for ACTUAL rate. Update now transaction has reached England....... No fee from Nationwide (0.84%) and the rate was concluded at 55.755. A remarkable way to by-pass ALL the charging systems AND create more work for the banks !!!!! Per bank statement:- 30 Jun 2009Cash Kbank.#384 Prakhon Chai BURIRAM. 20,000.00THB at 55.755.£358.71 To confirm:- No fee taken by Kasikorn. No fee taken by Nationwide/VISA (I cannot accept that they would 'hide it' in the rate - even the usurous 150 Baht shows separately) It DID take a week to process this transaction - it was paper VISA withdrawal slip. The initial rate allocated on 23 June was 55.42 and the 'actual' rate when debited on 30 June was 55.755. IF Nationwide/VISA applied the 0.84% charge (= 168 Baht) through the exchange rate then they would have had to work off a headline rate of 56.22 for the day i.e. 20,168 @ 56.22 = GBP 358.71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 On June 3, you got a 34.06 rate at GSB (10K baht for $293.57). The X-Rates average IER for that day was 34.045, so that's a good deal and makes sense.....I'm assuming, then, BofI is showing you what they saved you by BofI covering the VISA fee instead of them being deducted from your funds, and thus giving you pretty much the full exchange rate on your withdrawals. Good analysis, JC. Looks like a "non-add" column. But (scratch, scratch), did we conclude anything on what those "ATM service charge reversal" numbers represent? It makes more sense, to me at least, that they do represent all network/issuing bank fees that otherwise would have been charged. That it comes out to about 1.3% doesn't surprise me, as that's what USAA charges me (or at least used to, before I started ACH transfers), while still mumbling they only charged the 1% Cirrus foreign transaction fee. They never could explain why my spreadsheet said I was being charged 1.3%. And, of course, another reason why it doesn't look like an owner's ATM fee is, as JC points out, GSB ain't charging no ATM fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimGant Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) The initial rate allocated on 23 June was 55.42 and the 'actual' rate when debited on 30 June was 55.755. IF Nationwide/VISA applied the 0.84% charge (= 168 Baht) through the exchange rate then they would have had to work off a headline rate of 56.22 for the day i.e. 20,168 @ 56.22 = GBP 358.71 The X-Rate.com rate for June 30th was 56.496.... Maybe you paid more than .84%? Edited July 2, 2009 by JimGant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Chaimai, Jim... Here's the actual X-Rates comparison rates for the pound, for the relevant period of days... 2009-06-23 June 23, Tuesday 55.6855 THB 2009-06-24 June 24, Wednesday 56.3852 THB 2009-06-25 June 25, Thursday 55.527 THB 2009-06-26 June 26, Friday 56.1829 THB 2009-06-29 June 29, Monday 56.3789 THB 2009-06-30 June 30, Tuesday 56.4956 THB It seems hard to figure, from the details below, that this turned out to be a particularly favorable over-the-counter transaction, compared to what a no-fee ATM would have been for the same period of days... BTW, the pound does seem to be continuing to bounce around quite a bit in terms of valuations vs. the baht. It would be nice if some American soul out there would do some over-the-counter withdrawals, since the day-to-day rates for the dollar seem to be much more constant. It DID take a week to process this transaction - it was paper VISA withdrawal slip.The initial rate allocated on 23 June was 55.42 and the 'actual' rate when debited on 30 June was 55.755. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMMCB Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The extra ATM fee "virus" is unfortunately spreading. I just found the following, hidden in the small print at the bottom of an HSBC Singapore webpage (which was advertising its debit card offering): "With effect from 1 July 2009, an administrative fee of 1.5% of the foreign currency transaction amount will be debited from your account when a transaction in foreign currency is made on your debit or ATM card." This is on top of its 8 SGD charge for using a non-HSBC ATM machine abroad. That will make the total 'fee' for my regular 30,000 THB withdrawal via UOB ATMs in Thailand over 600 baht. Looks like I need a new bank. CMMCB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaimai Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The extra ATM fee "virus" is unfortunately spreading. I just found the following, hidden in the small print at the bottom of an HSBC Singapore webpage (which was advertising its debit card offering):"With effect from 1 July 2009, an administrative fee of 1.5% of the foreign currency transaction amount will be debited from your account when a transaction in foreign currency is made on your debit or ATM card." This is on top of its 8 SGD charge for using a non-HSBC ATM machine abroad. That will make the total 'fee' for my regular 30,000 THB withdrawal via UOB ATMs in Thailand over 600 baht. Looks like I need a new bank. CMMCB ......... and their rates are usually cr4p on overseas transactions. Best bank in the world though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaimai Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Chaimai, Jim... Here's the actual X-Rates comparison rates for the pound, for the relevant period of days...2009-06-23 June 23, Tuesday 55.6855 THB 2009-06-24 June 24, Wednesday 56.3852 THB 2009-06-25 June 25, Thursday 55.527 THB 2009-06-26 June 26, Friday 56.1829 THB 2009-06-29 June 29, Monday 56.3789 THB 2009-06-30 June 30, Tuesday 56.4956 THB It seems hard to figure, from the details below, that this turned out to be a particularly favorable over-the-counter transaction, compared to what a no-fee ATM would have been for the same period of days... BTW, the pound does seem to be continuing to bounce around quite a bit in terms of valuations vs. the baht. It would be nice if some American soul out there would do some over-the-counter withdrawals, since the day-to-day rates for the dollar seem to be much more constant. It DID take a week to process this transaction - it was paper VISA withdrawal slip.The initial rate allocated on 23 June was 55.42 and the 'actual' rate when debited on 30 June was 55.755. Jim, jfc - interesting. Any charge at the UK end would not be more than 0.84% and my instincts tell me that Nationwide would be upfront in showing their fees. What I think happened is that at the end of this rather archaic transaction VISA/Nationwide applied their 'rate for the day' when the transaction reached the UK. Additionally, I cannot make fee-free ATM withdrawals in Prakhon Chai so the counter withdrawal is usually more attractive - although I do seen to lose control of the exchange rate. Overall, I am fairly satisfied that an over the counter withdrawal is not disadvantageous. It also means that I can get 105,000 Baht switched from Sterling in one day, on my 3 main bank cards, by a combination of ATM and counter useage. I also agree that would be useful to see some over the counter US$ withdrawals for comparison. All this is not life-changing stuff (as I think we all realise) but I am interested to understand how the systems work and IF it is cost-effective to adjust my banking habits I can at least make an informed decision. I worked in banking for 31 years and have learned more about international card transactions in the few months than I did in those 31 years Edited July 3, 2009 by Chaimai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 There's no (fee-free) UOB branch local for you??? They're pretty much all over the country.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Ngo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 UOB - ATM and Branch locations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifemagic Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Used UOB in Night Market Chiang Mai three days ago, no charge (checked my ac online today). Concerning, to go back a bit, the 0.84% free from Nationwide UK. I read about it here first, then found a specific page about the new charge on the nationwide website, though I can't find it now, but the wording there made me understand the new charge was for purchases overseas... not withdrawels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaimai Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) There's no (fee-free) UOB branch local for you??? They're pretty much all over the country.... Surin, 66 km away . AEON 44 km away at Buri Ram. It is alright for you townies but this is the boonies Edited July 3, 2009 by Chaimai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaimai Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Used UOB in Night Market Chiang Mai three days ago, no charge (checked my ac online today).Concerning, to go back a bit, the 0.84% free from Nationwide UK. I read about it here first, then found a specific page about the new charge on the nationwide website, though I can't find it now, but the wording there made me understand the new charge was for purchases overseas... not withdrawels. Try this:- Questions & Answers Will I be charged the Visa fee for withdrawing cash from a cash machine?Select the country you are visiting from the list below, if it is listed as "no fee charged" you will not be charged. Otherwise you will be charged the fee. Please remember if you use your credit card to withdraw cash you will be charged a cash advance fee.link is here:- http://nationwide.co.uk/current_account/fo...ransactions.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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