Teaching Contract Labor Stuff

[mkj]

Working at a reputable school, but am becoming increasingly annoyed at the policies that govern our labor "rights."

According to our contracts we get 5 personal/sick days a year, that's it. In addition to that, if we are late by 1 second 3 times in the course of that year, the school first starts taking our sick days away. If all 5 of our sick days have been used THEN the school deducts a full day's pay from our paychecks. And there's no limit to this. So, for example, if you were absent four times in the first term and late by 1 minute 9 times the second term, the school WILL take two day's pay just like that.

Now I've been subjected to this for some time, but this past year it got out of control with me and in the course of this year the school took 16000 baht from me just for being a little late. Never missed a class mind, just couldn't push the dam_n button on time.

Now the new year is starting, I'm looking at this contract and wondering, IS THIS EVEN LEGAL?

Your input would be greatly appreciated friends. I've tried to do some reading/research on this but I can't find anything this specific. Let me know what you think/what you recommend.

Cheers

mkj

[thaicbr]

"but am becoming increasingly annoyed at the policies that govern our labor "rights

Happened to me last year at my school, no wages lost just serious earache. now I'm not late......... I learnt from my mistakes. How annoyed do you think your boss is that you constantly break the clearly stated rules. Thai teachers are at school before the due time, so why aren't the Falang teachers. simple, we are lazy or we are rule breakers or we think we are better than the Thai teachers this is possibly what the Thais think.

Allan

[unforgiven]

Working at a reputable school, but am becoming increasingly annoyed at the policies that govern our labor "rights."

According to our contracts we get 5 personal/sick days a year, that's it. In addition to that, if we are late by 1 second 3 times in the course of that year, the school first starts taking our sick days away. If all 5 of our sick days have been used THEN the school deducts a full day's pay from our paychecks. And there's no limit to this. So, for example, if you were absent four times in the first term and late by 1 minute 9 times the second term, the school WILL take two day's pay just like that.

Now I've been subjected to this for some time, but this past year it got out of control with me and in the course of this year the school took 16000 baht from me just for being a little late. Never missed a class mind, just couldn't push the dam_n button on time.

Now the new year is starting, I'm looking at this contract and wondering, IS THIS EVEN LEGAL?

Your input would be greatly appreciated friends. I've tried to do some reading/research on this but I can't find anything this specific. Let me know what you think/what you recommend.

Cheers

mkj

It's a third world country,don't be late or find another school with a f emale headmaster you can bang!

[PeaceBlondie]

I doubt the contracts and their applications are legal, but I am no labour expert. I have never had problems getting to work on time. Thai teachers are sometimes late, in my experience. It appears excessively draconian.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

You can put whatever you want in a contract. Insurance companies always put unlawful exclusions in insurance policies. Only if the offending term of the contract is enforced by a party, and then challenged in court, will the Labor Code come into play. A contract term in violation of the Labor Code is void.

It does not appear that making a penalty deduction for tardiness violates any part of the Labor Code. In fact, the school could point to Section 76(4) of the Labor Protection Act of 1998 1998 Labor Protection Act.pdf as advance authorization of the deduction pursuant to your teacher contract. Moreover, the Labor Code does not specify the minimum number of days of annual sick/personal leave which must be offered by an employer. It does require 13 paid days of holiday leave, and 6 days of vacation leave after completing 1 year of employment.

[Loaded]

I believe a school is allowed to have a code of conduct with its own punishments (fines etc.) but labour law will out trump this if it contravenes labour law. However, as ZBB said, it's up to the teacher to challenge.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

I believe a school is allowed to have a code of conduct with its own punishments (fines etc.) but labour law will out trump this if it contravenes labour law.

Correct. That would be pursuant to the Labour Relations Act of 1975, Sections 10-11. Labour Relations Act of 1975 However, I suspect few schools have ever fully complied with this law. I know that my school incorporates its code of conduct into each contract rather than formally issuing the agreement, which can trigger union organizing (if the school has more than 20 foreign teachers, as mine does).

[markg]

Working at a reputable school,

Now I've been subjected to this for some time, but this past year it got out of control with me and in the course of this year the school took 16000 baht from me just for being a little late. Never missed a class mind, just couldn't push the dam_n button on time.

Now the new year is starting, I'm looking at this contract and wondering, IS THIS EVEN LEGAL?

Let me know what you think/what you recommend.

So you work at a reputable school, sign a contract which has clauses for loss of pay for being late etc - lose 16k baht cos you're late etc and you want to know what we think?

I think that if you can stomach being late and losing 16k baht, how often would you be late if there wasn't a financial disincentive? Possibly a lot more often.

How far do schools have to go for staff to come in on time? Sheesh. Would you still be late, for example, if you lost the whole months salary? Doubtful eh. So you can be on time for your work if you really have to be, cant you. Yes, we all know that there are times in a year when the train breaks down, or the road is flooded, or a lorry has crashed, or there is a royal visit etc, but these are extra-ordinary events and a decent school (reputable?) would take that into consideration.

If you're supposed to be at school for 7.45 then why not aim at getting there at 7.30 instead which gives you a bit of a buffer for heavy traffic etc.

Sorry mate, being a couple of minutes late, frequently, is just unacceptable, and i dont think the school are being draconian.

Are they renewing your contract this year by the way? Our school wouldnt.

Y'know buddy, the trick to getting along in life can often be flying under the radar and keeping your nose clean. Being a couple of minutes late and being fined 16k baht would make me feel professionally embarrassed.

I wouldnt bleat on here that i was hard done by. I'd kinda look inwardly for the solution.

[BruceMangosteen]

Any rule which isn't enforced across the board seems wrong. Anyone have experiences which exclude certain foreigners from a standard set of rules such as being tardy and number of days absent/sick? In such instances, would that be considered by the labor court or is it on a case by case basis and how others in the same situation and contract agreement are treated not applicable or considered? What I mean, is that if you cut one teachers wages for being tardy, do you, a school/employer have to cut all who are late? Thank You.

Edited April 11, 2009 by BruceMangosteen

[Loaded]

Any rule which isn't enforced across the board seems wrong. Anyone have experiences which exclude certain foreigners from a standard set of rules such as being tardy and number of days absent/sick? In such instances, would that be considered by the labor court or is it on a case by case basis and how others in the same situation and contract agreement are treated not applicable or considered? What I mean, is that if you cut one teachers wages for being tardy, do you, a school/employer have to cut all who are late? Thank You.

Post #6

[Scott]

Deductions are routinely made in Western countries for employees who are late--either the time comes off of your holiday time or you get a pay deduction. Most places aren't as pedantic as yours is, but can be done. I haven't heard of people getting deducted an entire days pay if they were in fact there--that seems quite challengeable.

We had a horrible problem with people being late for a number of years--and it kept getting worse, down to the point where teachers were walking into their first period class 1/2 hour late--and they were supposed to be at school about an hour before school began! The admin began fining them 50 baht for every 15 minutes late. It got manageable quite quickly after that!

It's hard to run a school when you have no idea whose actually at work and who isn't.

[BruceMangosteen]

I believe a school is allowed to have a code of conduct with its own punishments (fines etc.) but labour law will out trump this if it contravenes labour law. However, as ZBB said, it's up to the teacher to challenge.

I must have asked wrong as this doesn't answer the question and concern. Let me put it in easier terms. If one teacher is allowed to be late despite being under the same code of conduct as another teacher who is fined wages(deductions) for being late, at the same school, same contract, what recourse would he/she have? Or what do you suggest he/she do about it other than "quit and find another school"? This is a real life example, not fantasy.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

I believe a school is allowed to have a code of conduct with its own punishments (fines etc.) but labour law will out trump this if it contravenes labour law. However, as ZBB said, it's up to the teacher to challenge.

I must have asked wrong as this doesn't answer the question and concern. Let me put it in easier terms. If one teacher is allowed to be late despite being under the same code of conduct as another teacher who is fined wages(deductions) for being late, at the same school, same contract, what recourse would he/she have? Or what do you suggest he/she do about it other than "quit and find another school"? This is a real life example, not fantasy.

Other than quit and find a new job, you could file petition with the Labour Council. See sections 123-125 of the Labour Protection Act.

http://www.aseanhrmech.org/downloads/thail...Act_of_1998.pdf

[Ijustwannateach]

My understanding of the 'rules/contract' vs. 'labour law' situation above is as other posters have put it.

Regarding BMS's latest tangent:

I believe you may have a case if an individual teacher is discriminated against; however, proving such discrimination in court might be very difficult. And if you are the one challenging the school, it really wouldn't help your future there- so you may as well 'quit and find another school' while you're at it. My interpretation of the 'rules' situation at Thai schools is that they are so wide-ranging, so vague, and with evaluations so unclear and undocumented- that really the one rule you need is "FIT IN OR GO ELSEWHERE." What may make it more confusing for the outsider (foreigner or new teacher) is that 'fitting in' isn't necessarily a matter of consistency from teacher to teacher. You may have to find or make your own 'place.'

You may find that there are other reasons than the one stated (lateness) for the penalised teacher having been penalised- people here are not always direct, especially when it could involve a loss of face- that could just be the easiest, least conflict-ridden way to tell the teacher, face-to-face, that there are serious problems. And, whether it happens through labour deductions or otherwise, you may find that the 'unpenalised' late teacher actually does suffer some consequences- or has to make some other contribution as a result. Consistency is what we expect as foreign professionals, but it is not the only way to make things work.

[Martian]

markg is spot on.

If you can't get to work on time, then don't sign a contract with penalties about such. After all, it your responsibility (or lack thereof) that is bringing the clauses into play. Seems to me you are the one in control of the situation but fail to be responsible and are looking for some kind of justification for your irresponsibility.

Ain't getting any sympathy from me. Irresponsible people make the world what it is today instead of the good place it could be.

Grow up!

Regards

[Bahookie]

5 sick days a year is quite standard. Should know if you need more than that and shouldn't sign the contract accordingly.

Staff of a large International organisation in Bangkok get 6 days a year and most people think that is good going.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

My school gave 15 sick days through last year. We then had a teacher take all the days, for a variety of excuses (one with a doctor's certificate), and was discovered to be home-tutoring students during his disability. Needless to say, he was terminated. Our school now gives 5 days of sick leave, although the school will almost always pay for up to 30 days for an extended disability (the maximum allowed by the Labor Protection Act). When I broke my leg in a motorbike accident last year, the school paid me during my 1 month disability and did the same for another teacher who suffered a stroke.

[toptuan]

markg is spot on.

If you can't get to work on time, then don't sign a contract with penalties about such. After all, it your responsibility (or lack thereof) that is bringing the clauses into play. Seems to me you are the one in control of the situation but fail to be responsible and are looking for some kind of justification for your irresponsibility.

Ain't getting any sympathy from me. Irresponsible people make the world what it is today instead of the good place it could be.

Grow up!

Regards

Hear hear! Taught seven years here with multiple (up to 6) classes to get to each day. Never late. You're just setting up a straw man to deflect attention from your own irresponsibility. Act like a responsible teacher here and your troubles here will be kept to a minimum.

[Scott]

Unless you have someone in an Administrative position to back you up, it could be hard to prove your case. People sometimes just plain lie about being deducted, or how much their raise was. You might just be way out there with hearsay evidence.

[Martian]

My contract for this coming school year provides for 15 sick days. Any one period of sickness that is 5 days or more requires a doctor's paper. This, of course, is to discourage those who would take advantage of the policy and take an extra week's vacation. Pretty fair IMHO. Obviously such policies have come about due to the irresponsible and not due to the responsible but the responsible pay all the same.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Martian

[Phatcharanan]

Working at a reputable school, but am becoming increasingly annoyed at the policies that govern our labor "rights."

According to our contracts we get 5 personal/sick days a year, that's it. In addition to that, if we are late by 1 second 3 times in the course of that year, the school first starts taking our sick days away. If all 5 of our sick days have been used THEN the school deducts a full day's pay from our paychecks. And there's no limit to this. So, for example, if you were absent four times in the first term and late by 1 minute 9 times the second term, the school WILL take two day's pay just like that.

Now I've been subjected to this for some time, but this past year it got out of control with me and in the course of this year the school took 16000 baht from me just for being a little late. Never missed a class mind, just couldn't push the dam_n button on time.

Now the new year is starting, I'm looking at this contract and wondering, IS THIS EVEN LEGAL?

Your input would be greatly appreciated friends. I've tried to do some reading/research on this but I can't find anything this specific. Let me know what you think/what you recommend.

Cheers

mkj

You're just irresponsible and quite obviously in the wrong job. It's probably a reputable school partly because it does have policies and sticks to them.

Get a job cleaning shoes or something if you want to be late often.

[mkj]

Wow. That was all really interesting. I kinda forgot about this.

I still stand my ground that taking a days wages over a few seconds of time is extreme and unreasonable.

I liken it to...beating a child repeatedly for not tying his shoe. From a business perspect, I fail to see how extreme punishments benefit the employer or the employee in the long run.

I believe a school, more than a business, should be a place of reason and anything it does should promote reason and have good reasons behind it, if not wisdom. Regardless of what country you're in.

I do not think it is Right for schools to opportunistically make money off their teachers--just because they can, nor do I think the answer to this scenario is to "suck it up," be "grateful" or "don't challenge the power-crazed management, blame yourself," even if I am just "snot-nosed brat" who won't accept responsibility.

I realise some of you didn't invest yourself in this topic wholeheartedly because it's based on an issue that is frivolous to you personally. But imagine if we were talking about being ten seconds late (3 times in 1 year) coming back from a smoke break, a lunch break, a bank break, and you got docked a day's pay because of that? Would you simply blame yourself, or would you not feel that was, oh I hate to use such a simple word, but "wrong." Not to mention fishy. Or are you saying that we as employees should bow down and jump through WHATEVER Hoops the school sets up for us?

I know a teacher who in the course of a year was a few seconds late a couple of times and then, completely by accident, clocked out one second early one day and was docked a day's pay because of it. Now to me, again, that seems completely unreasonable. I do not agree with that, nor will I ever. This is what you call "making policies and sticking to it" as if it were the mark of a good school. Whereas I think making policies that aren't sound or effective and not leaving room for them to be questioned or challenged is the mark of a good communist nation.

Now I realise I come from a land where making teachers use a time clock would be insulting, so perhaps my feelings on this issue are amplified by other principles. You all seem to use this word "late" like you REALLY strongly believe in it, like five seconds in the same as an hour! Like you would Love to mark me late if you had a millisecond on me! I don't understand that at all. But then again, I realise that this idea of "Lateness" in this setting, in which one, two, three, five minutes "late," effects NOT A SINGLE THING is a completely arbitrary construction, enforced adamantly only because it can be done easily. At the click of a button. I say that because not a single other system in this school is enforced like this one. And that fact that they are making so much money off of it is what pisses me off.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

But imagine if we were talking about being ten seconds late (3 times in 1 year) coming back from a smoke break, a lunch break, a bank break, and you got docked a day's pay because of that? Would you simply blame yourself, or would you not feel that was, oh I hate to use such a simple word, but "wrong." Not to mention fishy. Or are you saying that we as employees should bow down and jump through WHATEVER Hoops the school sets up for us?

I know a teacher who in the course of a year was a few seconds late a couple of times and then, completely by accident, clocked out one second early one day and was docked a day's pay because of it. Now to me, again, that seems completely unreasonable. I do not agree with that, nor will I ever. This is what you call "making policies and sticking to it" as if it were the mark of a good school. Whereas I think making policies that aren't sound or effective and not leaving room for them to be questioned or challenged is the mark of a good communist nation.

Now I realise I come from a land where making teachers use a time clock would be insulting, so perhaps my feelings on this issue are amplified by other principles. You all seem to use this word "late" like you REALLY strongly believe in it, like five seconds in the same as an hour! Like you would Love to mark me late if you had a millisecond on me! I don't understand that at all. But then again, I realise that this idea of "Lateness" in this setting, in which one, two, three, five minutes "late," effects NOT A SINGLE THING is a completely arbitrary construction, enforced adamantly only because it can be done easily. At the click of a button. I say that because not a single other system in this school is enforced like this one. And that fact that they are making so much money off of it is what pisses me off.

10 seconds, 5 second, 1 second late. Get real! If any school ran that closely to a clock, it could not be located in Thailand. If you don't like the school, find a new one. It's not that difficult. Lots of schools to choose from.

[dsprtliving]

hmmmm....easy solution to your problem if you want to sign a new contract for the next academic year. Simple...don't be late! As a previous poster suggested, get there 15 minutes earlier and your problem is solved. On a personal note, I don't do so well in the mornings and so i purposely set my alarm clock about 10 minutes fast so it gives me a bit of elbow room to get from point "a" to point "b" in the morning. Also, for teachers at many schools it is standard to get 5 sick days per year as we get more holiday time over all than almost all professions.

Edited April 15, 2009 by dsprtliving

[Martian]

Wow. That was all really interesting. I kinda forgot about this.

I still stand my ground that taking a days wages over a few seconds of time is extreme and unreasonable.

I liken it to...beating a child repeatedly for not tying his shoe. From a business perspect, I fail to see how extreme punishments benefit the employer or the employee in the long run.

I believe a school, more than a business, should be a place of reason and anything it does should promote reason and have good reasons behind it, if not wisdom. Regardless of what country you're in.

I do not think it is Right for schools to opportunistically make money off their teachers--just because they can, nor do I think the answer to this scenario is to "suck it up," be "grateful" or "don't challenge the power-crazed management, blame yourself," even if I am just "snot-nosed brat" who won't accept responsibility.

I realise some of you didn't invest yourself in this topic wholeheartedly because it's based on an issue that is frivolous to you personally. But imagine if we were talking about being ten seconds late (3 times in 1 year) coming back from a smoke break, a lunch break, a bank break, and you got docked a day's pay because of that? Would you simply blame yourself, or would you not feel that was, oh I hate to use such a simple word, but "wrong." Not to mention fishy. Or are you saying that we as employees should bow down and jump through WHATEVER Hoops the school sets up for us?

I know a teacher who in the course of a year was a few seconds late a couple of times and then, completely by accident, clocked out one second early one day and was docked a day's pay because of it. Now to me, again, that seems completely unreasonable. I do not agree with that, nor will I ever. This is what you call "making policies and sticking to it" as if it were the mark of a good school. Whereas I think making policies that aren't sound or effective and not leaving room for them to be questioned or challenged is the mark of a good communist nation.

Now I realise I come from a land where making teachers use a time clock would be insulting, so perhaps my feelings on this issue are amplified by other principles. You all seem to use this word "late" like you REALLY strongly believe in it, like five seconds in the same as an hour! Like you would Love to mark me late if you had a millisecond on me! I don't understand that at all. But then again, I realise that this idea of "Lateness" in this setting, in which one, two, three, five minutes "late," effects NOT A SINGLE THING is a completely arbitrary construction, enforced adamantly only because it can be done easily. At the click of a button. I say that because not a single other system in this school is enforced like this one. And that fact that they are making so much money off of it is what pisses me off.

Interesting....that so many people don't look at being a few minutes late as innocent as you want it to be?????? Late is late, that is the point and the concept that you cannot come to grips with and thus will never correct. You just don't get it!

I once had an employee who took advantage of my attendance rules which had generous allowances for "things that happen" but he used those "allowances" for intentional decisions not to come to work and one day.....he had a flat tire and was late to work. This put him in violation of the attendance rules and he was fired. Of course his response was....because I had a flat tire? I said no because you were irresponsible before and and used up all your "allowances" on intentional things. I then told him that he fired himself, it was my job to let him know when he did it.

Same-Same as you.

Regards,

Martian

Edited April 19, 2009 by Martian

[culicine]

Following school rules should never be a problem for professional teachers. Read the contract first. Then if you don;t agree, try to negotiate something better. If you can't then you can walk.

I wouldn't make an issue of schools skirting labour laws. The law also tells you they only need to pay you about 160 baht a day and can make you work 6 days a week if they like. So you can have your 30 days sick leave a year AND your 160 baht a day??

[Ijustwannateach]

We appear to have gone off-track here; the original topic is about school rules and contracts, but the real interest seems to be how strictly people should worry about being exactly, precisely, on-time.

Some employees will always be able to make things work (i.e., get the necessary work done at the time it is supposed to be done without inconveniencing anyone) whether they come in on the dot of the clock or not. Some employees will always want to be the 'potty police' and pride themselves on consistent morning promptness, even if they are absolutely hideous and dysfunctional employees during the working day. A good manager will recognise which situation is more in need of attention and correction, and also decide where promptness fits into a whole spectrum of employee qualities.

Naturally, if an employee is absent or late for real duties (classes) then there's a problem. However, I would judge that being exactly on time is not necessarily intrinsically important if actual student contact/meetings/classes/scheduled duties do not start at that time. In fact, a good manager may get more work out of certain employees by allowing a relaxed atmosphere (outside the bounds of duties) and treating his employees as salaried professionals rather than hourly wage slaves. I know that if I were treated as being 'on the clock' I would certainly refuse to do any work at all outside scheduled hours.

But that's just my opinion!

[BruceMangosteen]

We appear to have gone off-track here; the original topic is about school rules and contracts, but the real interest seems to be how strictly people should worry about being exactly, precisely, on-time.

Some employees will always be able to make things work (i.e., get the necessary work done at the time it is supposed to be done without inconveniencing anyone) whether they come in on the dot of the clock or not. Some employees will always want to be the 'potty police' and pride themselves on consistent morning promptness, even if they are absolutely hideous and dysfunctional employees during the working day. A good manager will recognise which situation is more in need of attention and correction, and also decide where promptness fits into a whole spectrum of employee qualities.

Naturally, if an employee is absent or late for real duties (classes) then there's a problem. However, I would judge that being exactly on time is not necessarily intrinsically important if actual student contact/meetings/classes/scheduled duties do not start at that time. In fact, a good manager may get more work out of certain employees by allowing a relaxed atmosphere (outside the bounds of duties) and treating his employees as salaried professionals rather than hourly wage slaves. I know that if I were treated as being 'on the clock' I would certainly refuse to do any work at all outside scheduled hours.

But that's just my opinion!

In management, the rules have to apply to everyone. To allow one teacher to be lax while at the same time threaten other teachers with pay cuts for being late will only IMHO snowball in to lack of caring about the students and the school, calling in sick when not, etc..

[beano2274]

To the OP

Do you work for a private or government school?

I worked at a Private Kindergarten, all teachers had to sign in every morning and out every night. One old hag used to sit next to the book and at a specific time would draw a read line under the last name in the book, if your name appeared under the red line you were late, pay was not deducted for the first infringement however, if more than a certain number of times you were spoken to by the Head.

I work downtown and live in Nonthaburi, I drive to work, through the heavy traffic, I know what time I have to be there, so I make sure I leave in plenty of time to get there, I am always early, sometimes even 30 or 40 minutes early, but if you like your Job and want to keep it, you have to be early.

It's just like my friend, he thinks he is gods gift to teaching and the school won't fire him cause he is so good, but he has been late many times, each day he is late wages minus 1000baht, a couple of months ago he lost 10,000 baht.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, BM, if I was talking about what you were, you would be right. I was talking about putting promptness in a basket of qualities for rating teachers, evaluations, etc. You were talking about unfair and inconsistent treatment along one spectrum. Do try to keep up.

But we are terribly off-topic here. If no one has anything else to say about contracts, I think we will be closing this thread soon.