April 13, 2009, The Black Songkran

[h90]

They didn't had the flash suppressor installed on the pics I saw.

So they could use a smaller device (just a screw with a hole to increase pressure).

It would need someone who knows what Thailand uses...any Thai here who was at the army?

[h90]

So what we are saying is that anyone stating they are only firing blanks or these paper bullets, are doing one of two things.

Talking about something of which they have no knowledge.

Or...............

Lying.

Correct?

Why you think so?

[Ta22]

been a long while since i hold a M16 , back in my training days , and range run , Blank Round that had been used , have a Black . plastic like Tips .

if i recall correctly . if the type of bullet had been used , you can easily find tons of the twisted plastic like shell . on the ground .

what is strange is that - after saying so much about no live round been fire into the protestor .

this morning when i was watching the news ..

i saw the army pushing a Pink taxi away .. with tons of bullet hole on the taxi .

and the bullet hole is kinda like from thwa army direction .. if tehre are firing into the air ..where did those bullet hole come from .. and if those bullet hole is all from the protestor ..

i think if you just go arrest the red proestor and you will have answer how JFK is killed -- magic bullet don't come cheap i guess

Edited April 13, 2009 by Ta22

[BigSnake]

Not Black Songkran, a Red, blood Red Songkran. to say lot of blood shed in the LAND OF SMILES this Day. come on red shirts, yellow shirts, blue shirts, army, government snap out of it, should be in the Kindgom and you all are acting like SPOIL kids that can't get what they want. OUT

Edited April 13, 2009 by BigSnake

[Ta22]

This remind me of the movie . " GANGs OF NEW YORK "

whahhaah i think the PM and Taksin should come one on one on the street and everyone can bet - and whom ever win . the war end ..

why is it every war is fight by the blind and fooled while the real player sit well protected in their castle .

--

[ozzydom]

As none of the firearms (M16s) are fitted with BFA's (blank firing adaptors) that are required to fire and cycle blank ammo I have to conclude that live rounds are being used.

Anyone even mildly familiar with assault weapon technology could only come to the same conclusion.

And yet no reports of any fatalities? Either they are great shots, or really bad shots? Or there is something else going on, that is perhaps beyond our ability to explain?

There have been reports of injuries due to gunshot wounds though.

The red-shirts are claiming there have been fatalities although no proof yet.

But back to my original point and that is blank rounds cannot cycle in an M16 without a BFA, and that's a fact. Not enough pressure to chamber the following round you see.

I accept your explanation, as I have no knowledge of those things. My question is, why are no media (international CNN, BBC, AJ) or local, reporting any fatalies? Almost every image today has been broadcast live on local tv.

They must be piss poor shots considering reports of thousands of rounds being fired and the only reported gunshot wounds are four soldiers shot by red shirts.

[xminator]

The Nation reports 24 seriously injured, so even if no dead its just pure luck, not skill.

[gbt71fa]

As none of the firearms (M16s) are fitted with BFA's (blank firing adaptors) that are required to fire and cycle blank ammo I have to conclude that live rounds are being used.

Anyone even mildly familiar with assault weapon technology could only come to the same conclusion.

Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.. I agree 100% ..Good post Ober..

Live rounds

M16 without BFA adaptor

M16 without BFA adaptor

M16 with BFA adaptor

Wouldn't it be kind of stupid for the military to have blank adaptors fitted to their rifles? It takes several seconds to unwind the BFA from the barrel and would kind of scream out "Look at us, we're idiots!!!"

[MJo]

Here is spent rounds and holes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCU4M

This is where the previous statement came from; http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/

and here http://thaireporter.blog.co.uk/2009/04/13/...-crowd-5935754/

The link in broken for youtube vid. But i know what you are talking about. I have those same bullet hole stickers in my truck

[mrparanoid]

Wouldn't it be kind of stupid for the military to have blank adaptors fitted to their rifles? It takes several seconds to unwind the BFA from the barrel and would kind of scream out "Look at us, we're idiots!!!"

Look at the pictures.. No adaptors. No blank rounds. He is loading the magazine with live rounds. I never said they should or shouldn't have bfa's fitted. I just uploaded the pictures to show they do NOT have any bfa adaptors and they ARE using live rounds. That's all.

[on-on]

This should all be fairly easy to determine by interviewing local residents over the next couple of days. If that many soldiers charged forward firing live ammunition into the area there will be severe damage to the surrounding structures and, almost surely, at least some incidental casualties - if only pets and car tires and what not. If you can't find any evidence of bullets hitting stuff then nothing of substance exited the muzzle. I have no opinion on what did or did not happen, but I'm a firm believer in empirical evidence and by this time during the most explosive yellow shirt protests we had video and many pictures of a guy with his leg blown off and other things. hel_l, drive by Klong Toey market and there's a giant picture up of the guy the Pinkertons shot there last week. As of right now we have some pictures of people in bad shape, no doubt, but there's no way the people running PR for the red shirts would miss a chance to show off obvious bullet wound photos. Absolutely no way. The fact that nothing demonstrative has emerged is not exculpatory of the military, but it does tend to cast doubt on claims of tons of live ammo having been used.

[debcmai]

The claims of the spokesperson at 4:45pm was the bullets they are using a called practice rounds with paper wads. Checking with a film industry armourer he said they are correct, they make the same noise as fired bullets, and they have a lot of 'dust' which is evident in all footage I have seen so far. But he also said the 'blanks' used in Thailand simply do not work and cannot be used in film work. So you can also bet the 'media' black out, such that it is - will continue as to truth. Right now they claimed there is only one protester who is in critical condition and the rest have been treated and released. Believe it or not...

PS - I also saw full ammo loads going into issued M16's

We saw that, too. Reds are claiming some of them have been killed. Govt. denies completely. Anyone know anything about this? So hard to watch tv now....bad reception all day.

[h90]

As none of the firearms (M16s) are fitted with BFA's (blank firing adaptors) that are required to fire and cycle blank ammo I have to conclude that live rounds are being used.

Anyone even mildly familiar with assault weapon technology could only come to the same conclusion.

Finally someone who knows what he is talking about.. I agree 100% ..Good post Ober..

Live rounds

M16 without BFA adaptor

M16 without BFA adaptor

M16 with BFA adaptor

Wouldn't it be kind of stupid for the military to have blank adaptors fitted to their rifles? It takes several seconds to unwind the BFA from the barrel and would kind of scream out "Look at us, we're idiots!!!"

yes that's a good argument, as well you have two different ammunition in your pocket and I don't know what happens if you shoot the real one with the adaptor fitted.

[tropo]

Correct - No yellow gas canisters attached to any of the rifles I saw firing. No gas no reload - certainly not firing blanks. So how do we explain firing levelled at the crowd - no question it was not in the air? And no casualties? The mystery deepens...

The best way that I can explain it is that you're wrong and they ARE shooting blanks. That's a far more logical conclusion than some self proclaimed gun experts making conclusions from photos.

[Journalist]

Seems to be B&S ranting on and on, to an audience of about three. Editorialising indignantly and never wittily, undeviating from his usual idee fixe, and reproducing every article written about Thailand without the courtesy of a link to justify the piracy.

So, no, I think i'll read Thai Visa instead.

[JetsetBkk]

Seconded.

[cougar52]

Updated: [April 13, 2009 ] :: 14:28:59 [view 684]

BANGKOK - RED SHIRT LEADERS CLAIM COVER UP BY THAI MEDIA

Here are the latest developments from the crisis in Bangkok today, 13th April 2009:

07.30 am: The protester’s leader addressed the Thai military from the government house, asking all them to join the red shirt instead of being ordered by the government which is under the control of the previous coup makers.

07.35 am: Another leader, Jatuporn was informed by Dr. Apiwan, Vice President of the National Assembly that the Peu Thai party’s MPs would be examining the government’s actions and then join the protesters.

07.36 am: Jatuporn announced to all Thai people that Apisit and Suthep were now the criminals. He also asked General Anupong Paojinda for the return of the dead bodies of the victims for their funerals.

09.10 am: Dr. Choochai Kunathai, the director of the Veterans Hospital gave an interview to TPBS TV. Channel. He said the hospital had received 32 injured victims. Their injuries had been varied. Some had been beaten with hard object and had sustained serious wounds. Others suffered from gunshot wounds. Army and police officers had sustained only minor injuries; none had bullet wounds.

Meanwhile the Ramatibbordee Hospital revealed that had received 24 injured, all with minor injuries, and only required an operation. Some of the victims had sustained gunshot wounds, all of whom were protesters.

09.20 am: Miss Sukanda Sinkajit, a reporter from TPBS reported that the local reporters received complaints by the protesters that they were not reporting the truth. 09.30 am: The protesters requested a vast supply of drinking water.

10.00 am: A high ranking police official, Pol.Lt.Gen. Chat Kuladilok warned the army they had been tricked into killing people by being told they were protecting the monarchy. He said the fact is they were being used by high ranking generals [the group belonging to the King’s advisor, Prem Tinnasulanon]. Pol.Lt.Gen. Chat also requested all the doctors, nurses and reporters, to speak the truth and not cover up for anybody.

10.08 am: Rescue foundation staff joined the protesters on stage and said they had collected dead bodies and delivered them to the Rajvithi Hospital. Other bodies were taken away by GMC trucks belonging to the army.

10.10 am: The Nation Channel aired its first report about the doctor who demanded the government report the truth.

10.30 am: Mr. Niran Gulathanun, an academic for democracy revealed that the Network of Academics recommended three solutions to the crisis: 1. The government has to stop using violence to suppress the protesters. 2. The government leaders should listen to the ever increasing voices of the people and dissolve the parliament. 3. They rejected outright any attempted coup.

11.25 am: Weng Tohjirakan, a protester’s leader announced the deadline to the government to withdraw the troop within 3 hours otherwise the people from all around Thailand would fight back and Apisit will have to take responsibility.

11.30 am: Jatuporn announced on the stage, that according to inside information the government’s latest meeting with the army had come to 6 conclusions:

1. The officials were not able to close down the D-Station [the democracy TV. Station], which had been forced off air several times over the last 48 hours.

2. The Red taxi and motorbike supporters were an added complication in the suppression of the protesters.

3. Officials cannot control the Red Shirt supporters up country.

4. Apisit, Suthep and all the army and the police commanders should remain in the army camp.

5. They will attempt to block food and drink supplies to the protesters.

6. They will order the media owners to a meeting and make them present the news the way the government wants.

may

News Type : Political

Story : PDN STAFF

Photo :

Translater : Sirithanon

This is very interesting and I find it enlightening in view of what is put in the Nation and BP. PDN is the Pattaya Daily News

[cmsally]

Local radio is reporting over 300 dead and 2000 injured. Rather a stark contrast to govt. reports.

[mrparanoid]

Correct - No yellow gas canisters attached to any of the rifles I saw firing. No gas no reload - certainly not firing blanks. So how do we explain firing levelled at the crowd - no question it was not in the air? And no casualties? The mystery deepens...

The best way that I can explain it is that you're wrong and they ARE shooting blanks. That's a far more logical conclusion than some self proclaimed gun experts making conclusions from photos.

Yes.. You are the only expert here of course.. And all us other posters are retards.

The M16 is not a gun you can fully automatic fire blanks from or any other "harmless" bullet unless you attach some kind of very visible adaptor. There is also loads of pictures on the net showing soldiers re-filling their clips with live rounds.

Quote

The M-16 is a 5.56mm weapon, which is too small a caliber for an effective

non-penetrating round. If you fire a 5.56mm projectile slowly enough that

it won't punch holes through people, it won't have enough energy to do

much of anything at all. It would be the functional equivilant of a

BB gun.

"Rubber bullet" rounds for the M-16 and similar weapons are steel spheres

half an inch or so in diameter coated with a thin layer of rubber or plastic.

They are loaded, singly and from the muzzle, into a cylindrical tube attached

to the barrel of the weapon, and launched by firing a blank cartridge from

the rifle. Hence the device seen in the photographs.

Not as effective as a dedicated rubber-bullet-firing weapon would be, but it

has the distinct advantage of allowing you to fire regular bullets if the

crowd you are controlling turns out to be more violent than you expected.

--

*John Schilling

*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP

*Chief Scientist & General Partner

*White Elephant Research, LLC End quote

And of course SKYNEWS is not to be trusted either right?

Most live rounds were fired into the air or into the few buses that were driven towards the soldiers, but some of it were fired into crowds. Give it a day or two for pictures to surface on the net.

I'm not commenting on wether it is wrong or right to use live rounds, only that live rounds ARE being used.

Edited April 13, 2009 by mrparanoid

[lannarebirth]

Local radio is reporting over 300 dead and 2000 injured. Rather a stark contrast to govt. reports.

Thank you for that report Sally. That's certainly a startling claim in light of other reports we're reading. Did the radio report detail where this carnage took place, and by whom, and what has become of the bodies/injured?

[Oberkommando]

The best way that I can explain it is that you're wrong and they ARE shooting blanks. That's a far more logical conclusion than some self proclaimed gun experts making conclusions from photos.

Translation: I refuse to believe the factual evidence presented so I will stick my head in the sand and remain ignorant instead.

[cclub75]

Yeah, I am not an expert either, but firing live rounds point blank into the crowds would result in a body count that one cannot easily hide from the media or the people. There would also be property damage from the rounds that are being sprayed around randomly or missing their target. I guess it's wait and see and hope it is not happening.

It's funny that nobody ask the question : what would be the point to send soldiers with... blank bullets ?

What could they achieve as far as crowd control is concerned ? Why the Red would roll back ?

It's absurd.

[cmsally]

Local radio is reporting over 300 dead and 2000 injured. Rather a stark contrast to govt. reports.

Thank you for that report Sally. That's certainly a startling claim in light of other reports we're reading. Did the radio report detail where this carnage took place, and by whom, and what has become of the bodies/injured?

Afraid not, but will keep listening. Interestingly I was listening with a couple of Thai people who were veterans of the riots back in the '70's and when my eyes got bigger at the mention of the number reported dead; they read my mind and said "you really don't need us to explain about dead bodies in past crackdowns do you, they are still unaccounted for".

You need to remember that older Thais see this in a very different light to the clean cut image the govt is trying to display.

[wasabi]

It is horrible if protesters are dying but what can be expected when they attack the prime minister set public property on fire and kill average civilians? I noticed Thaksin was trying to divert attention to the fact 'bare handed' protesters were being slaughtered. When these guys are wielding various weapons and are acting chaotically and threatening us all. If you play with fire you have to be prepared to get burnt. No I am not advocating death only what do they expect the government to just sit down and take it?

Edited April 13, 2009 by wasabi

[on-on]

Interestingly I was listening with a couple of Thai people who were veterans of the riots back in the '70's and when my eyes got bigger at the mention of the number reported dead; they read my mind and said "you really don't need us to explain about dead bodies in past crackdowns do you, they are still unaccounted for".

You need to remember that older Thais see this in a very different light to the clean cut image the govt is trying to display.

True, but older Thais didn't have benefit of an entire nation of cameraphones and the internet. Putting aside all political predilections, massacres involving tons of people in heavily populated urban areas simply do not go unreported anymore because someone always sends out images and video almost instantaneously. We've had tons of video today of all kinds of things and more may still come out, but it's been almost 12 hours since the incident that sparked all of this debate in the first place and we've seen nighttime pictures of people holding bullets and holes in cars, but no indication regarding the event that precipitated all this discussion that there is any evidence of dead people, shot up windows and cars, scored walls and pavement. I'm following the Pantip.com threads as well, where that stuff usually pops up first, and there's nothing like that from Victory Monument area.

It may still come out, but as I mentioned before when the PAD guys got put down by the cops there were pictures and video online within a very short period of time showing the guy with his leg shot off and many other severe injuries which were consistent with the descriptions of the violence that preceded them. In this case we're told to believe that those hundreds of Thai soldiers that stormed Victory Monument unloaded live rounds into the area willy nilly but that they either fired into the air and magically hit nothing anywhere or that all evidence has been immediately covered up by the government. Either of these things could be roughly true (the firing into the air and hitting nothing anywhere being somewhat incredibly unlikely, of course) and certainly governments lie, but both seem ever more unlikely as time goes on.

[sbk]

Local radio is reporting over 300 dead and 2000 injured. Rather a stark contrast to govt. reports.

Which station?

[Freddie_fly]

Interestingly I was listening with a couple of Thai people who were veterans of the riots back in the '70's and when my eyes got bigger at the mention of the number reported dead; they read my mind and said "you really don't need us to explain about dead bodies in past crackdowns do you, they are still unaccounted for".

You need to remember that older Thais see this in a very different light to the clean cut image the govt is trying to display.

True, but older Thais didn't have benefit of an entire nation of cameraphones and the internet. Putting aside all political predilections, massacres involving tons of people in heavily populated urban areas simply do not go unreported anymore because someone always sends out images and video almost instantaneously. We've had tons of video today of all kinds of things and more may still come out, but it's been almost 12 hours since the incident that sparked all of this debate in the first place and we've seen nighttime pictures of people holding bullets and holes in cars, but no indication regarding the event that precipitated all this discussion that there is any evidence of dead people, shot up windows and cars, scored walls and pavement. I'm following the Pantip.com threads as well, where that stuff usually pops up first, and there's nothing like that from Victory Monument area.

It may still come out, but as I mentioned before when the PAD guys got put down by the cops there were pictures and video online within a very short period of time showing the guy with his leg shot off and many other severe injuries which were consistent with the descriptions of the violence that preceded them. In this case we're told to believe that those hundreds of Thai soldiers that stormed Victory Monument unloaded live rounds into the area willy nilly but that they either fired into the air and magically hit nothing anywhere or that all evidence has been immediately covered up by the government. Either of these things could be roughly true (the firing into the air and hitting nothing anywhere being somewhat incredibly unlikely, of course) and certainly governments lie, but both seem ever more unlikely as time goes on.

I was here during the 1981 "young Turks" Coup and the 1991 NPKC coup, and unfortunately again for the anti-Taksin coup. I dont remember the death toll in 1992 that effectively prompted intervention from above, but it was in the hundreds with many not accounted for. But believe me there is a difference between troops with automatic weapons firing into the air as opposed to firing into the crowd, if you look at the videos from today you can see that if a solid line of troops had fired directly into the crowd there would have been many deaths and a lot of property damage, the M16 rifle is a very high velocity weapon that can cause death from shock trauma even when the bullet strieks a non vital region. There are many posts around saying there are hundreds of dead, but apart from a poor resident telling the reds to go home, so far not one independantly verified death from a soldiers weapon.

regards

Freddie

edit: just googled it and official death toll was 52 from Black May, hundreds unaccounted for even today

Edited April 13, 2009 by Freddie_fly

[on-on]

I was here during the 1981 "young Turks" Coup and the 1991 NPKC coup, and unfortunately again for the anti-Taksin coup. I dont remember the death toll in 1992 that effectively prompted intervention from above, but it was in the hundreds with many not accounted for. But believe me there is a difference between troops with automatic weapons firing into the air as opposed to firing into the crowd, if you look at the videos from today you can see that if a solid line of troops had fired directly into the crowd there would have been many deaths and a lot of property damage, the M16 rifle is a very high velocity weapon that can cause death from shock trauma even when the bullet strieks a non vital region. There are many posts around saying there are hundreds of dead, but apart from a poor resident telling the reds to go home, so far not one independantly verified death from a soldiers weapon.

Yes, this is essentially my point if you read my posts. The problem, of course, is that the absence of evidence doesn't conclusively prove a negative, so you're always stuck with persistent doubt among participants in such a heated debate. If the local business owners and residents don't come out in the aftermath of all this showing off the bullet holes in their windows and cars in the area we've been discussing it's going to be rough to believe that a bunch of rifles were fired at all.

Edited April 13, 2009 by on-on

[kittiwat1]

The red shirts and Thaksin managed to create millions of enemies in the past few days. Their hope of gaining symphathy and popularity is greatly diminished.

[mrparanoid]

If the local business owners and residents don't come out in the aftermath of all this showing off the bullet holes in their windows and cars in the area we've been discussing it's going to be rough to believe that a bunch of rifles were fired at all.

Well.. apart from the fact that several of the most reliable news channels like CNN, BBC, and SKYNEWS are reporting that live rounds have been fired - mostly in the air (Do you really expect people to climb skyscrapers to look for bullet holes so you can believe live ammunition have been used?) - these very same channels have all shown clips of soldiers in groups of up to 30 emptying their magazines in the air to scare off the red shirts when they were becoming aggressive. There is a video on CNN showing several soldiers emtpying their magazine into an empty oncoming bus and you can clearly see windows beeing blown out from the shooting. SKYNEWS has a video showing a couple of soldiers firing single shots in the direction of red shirts. NOT firing off thousands of shots. But a couple of shots.. How can you expect to see shot up vehicles and bullet ridden buildings from a few shots? One of the soldiers fires a handgun as well..

The soldiers seem to respond to the situation very well using as little force as possible, but there seems to be no doubt whatsoever that they ARE using live rounds and not blanks.

Edited April 13, 2009 by mrparanoid