Forged Sick Note

[MHM]

I am the owner of a small business, 6 full time staff - work permit, 1 year visa set up. A member of staff has sent in a sick note in which the Dr has given her 3 days sick leave 16th -18th. Someone has changed 18 to 28 and so extended the leave by a further 10 days. I have been to the hospital and have a photocopy of the original which as I suspected should be for 3 days. Staff gossip suggests she will return to work tomorrow -if she does what should my course of action be? I feel like giving her 10 days unpaid leave (given the current business climate I'm overstaffed and would welcome saving a bit of cash). I want to send a very clear message the other staff that this is unacceptable behaviour.

If she takes the 13 days - do I have grounds for dismissal?

Another question - I'm looking into the possibility of job sharing and have 2 full time staff share 1 job (each working 3 day weeks)

Legal implications?

Problems?

Thoughts?

[Aachen]

I want to send a very clear message the other staff that this is unacceptable behaviour.

If she takes the 13 days - do I have grounds for dismissal?

Be a kind person. Say "Good Bye"... And: Why do you ask this?

Edited April 18, 2009 by Aachen

[MHM]

I ask because there are guidelines for instant dismissal with out severance pay and I want to be sure that I act within Thai law.

If she does come tomorrow she will certainly receive a written warning which could later be used for grounds for dismissal - I'd have to check how many formal warnings are needed to fire someone without severance.

[TheWalkingMan]

I ask because there are guidelines for instant dismissal with out severance pay and I want to be sure that I act within Thai law.

If she does come tomorrow she will certainly receive a written warning which could later be used for grounds for dismissal - I'd have to check how many formal warnings are needed to fire someone without severance.

Don't you have a lawyer to chat with?

[lopburi3]

I am having a problem following this - she had a sick leave slip for what were in fact holidays. The 18 looks like the 28 but you expect her at work on the 20th (which I assume would be next workday after the holiday period or after her unaltered slip). If indeed she does not appear on Monday and tries to use the other days I would agree - but if not it might just be a misunderstanding. Or did you talk with her? Often a written 1 will appear to be a 2

especially if a doctor wrote it .

[GuestHouse]

I think this is a good example why a bonus system is a good idea - Act up or loose your bonus - She'd soon get the message if she was the only member of staff that didn't get a bonus.

[MHM]

The staff work all public holidays. This is agreed and understood when they are employed.

I don't have a lawyer but thought this would be a good first court of call.

The changes on the sick note are nothing to do with the Dr. She changed it. The forgery is clear and verified by the original I photocopied today at the hospital that issued it. In short - she thinks I'm a thick farang and can full a fast one....

Please read court as port - sorry!

Edited April 18, 2009 by MHM

[AlexLah]

In order to demonstrate legal cause, the applicable statute states that the employer must establish that the employee exhibited any one of six types of behavior toward the company.

These types of behavior can be summarized as follows.

The employee

1) performs duties dishonestly or intentionally commits a criminal act against the employer;

2) intentionally causes employer to suffer losses;

3) performs act of gross negligence which causes employer to suffer severe losses;

4) violates employer's work rules or regulations or orders which are legal and fair after the employer has already given a written warning, except in serious situations in which case the employer is not required to give written warning;

5) neglects duties for 3 consecutive work days without reasonable cause, whether or not there is a holiday intervening in such period; or

6) has been imprisoned by final judgement except for offenses arising out of negligent acts or for petty offenses.

If the employer can establish that any one of the above types of behavior is present the employer is not required to pay severance to the employee to be terminated.

Employers who intend to withhold payment of severance in this situation should have clear documentation on file demonstrating that any one of the above 6 types of behavior is present.

Edited April 18, 2009 by AlexLah

[gregb]

5) neglects duties for 3 consecutive work days without reasonable cause, whether or not there is a holiday intervening in such period; or

It is quite clear from your explanation the employee did not have reasonable cause to be absent for those days since the note was forged.

Therefore, show this employee the door if they come back. You do have to pay them for the work they did however, even if you are terminating them for cause.

[cocopops]

I am the owner of a small business, 6 full time staff - work permit, 1 year visa set up. A member of staff has sent in a sick note in which the Dr has given her 3 days sick leave 16th -18th. Someone has changed 18 to 28 and so extended the leave by a further 10 days. I have been to the hospital and have a photocopy of the original which as I suspected should be for 3 days. Staff gossip suggests she will return to work tomorrow -if she does what should my course of action be? I feel like giving her 10 days unpaid leave (given the current business climate I'm overstaffed and would welcome saving a bit of cash).

If she comes back tomorrow then surely it was just a misunderstanding. Methinks if you then penalize her it would be you who were in the wrong morally and legally speaking. I can't see how you possibly could, but I hope you get caught if you go through with it.

On the other hand, if she really does try to cheat the 10 extra days, then that is the same as pinching money from the till. You really have no choice in that case.

[wasabi]

Fire her. In this economic client you will have a wide array of talent to replace her. Why give a stinking cheat a second chance? How could a forged note be a misunderstanding? This reminds me of the other thread where a Farang was asking what to tell his friend who's to be bride's family somehow lost his sinsot of 100K and wanted a new one. You let this person walk all over you and you get what you deserve.

Edited April 18, 2009 by wasabi

[Ijustwannateach]

I would say that you need to demonstrate to your staff that you are no fool. If you really like her enough to risk keeping her after this idiotic action, then I would give her the choice of the door or 10 days unpaid leave. Otherwise keep all the documentation and fire her.

I can understand someone taking a 'mental health' day, or official sick days for real illnesses- but 10 extra days is taking the piss!

[KHUNDAN]

I am the Deputy Managing Director of an International company here in Thailand that has over 1000 employee's both external and internal.

I am telling you FROM EXPERIENCE do not let an employee get away with bending the rules!

If you allow ANY employee to get away with bending the rules then you cannot punish another slacker in the future as this will be held against you in Thai Labor Court. "You let Jane do it, so why not John?"

Post your company rules, but before posting have them looked over by the Labor Dept to ensure they are fair and not against any labor law in place and then hole the employee's accountable at all cost! This has to be done every year!

I have let good people (I thought) go because they violated the rules and I did not want to have to fight in the future for trying to get rid of dead weight for the same reasons.

Sometimes we try and conduct business with a heart and feel sorry but if you are weak in this area you will end up losing in the end.

Sorry if I seem negative but I want to ensure you have the FACTS and dont listen to these posters that only chat and post via internet all day and night. I LIVE and WORK here in Thailand.

You can stop by my office anytime to talk or email me for anything I can do to help you or your business. Our website is Visit My Website

Hope this helps even though I know there will be a lot of flamers coming out after this...

Dan

[BygonKeaw]

I am the owner of a small business, 6 full time staff - work permit, 1 year visa set up. A member of staff has sent in a sick note in which the Dr has given her 3 days sick leave 16th -18th. Someone has changed 18 to 28 and so extended the leave by a further 10 days. I have been to the hospital and have a photocopy of the original which as I suspected should be for 3 days. Staff gossip suggests she will return to work tomorrow -if she does what should my course of action be? I feel like giving her 10 days unpaid leave (given the current business climate I'm overstaffed and would welcome saving a bit of cash). I want to send a very clear message the other staff that this is unacceptable behaviour.

If she takes the 13 days - do I have grounds for dismissal?

Another question - I'm looking into the possibility of job sharing and have 2 full time staff share 1 job (each working 3 day weeks)

Legal implications?

Problems?

Thoughts?

so your business isnt doing to well?? no need to take it out on others!

[kmj]

The current status of your business shouldn’t come into the equation, this is a clear case of misconduct (forging a sick note), make the message clear that you are running a business and show her the road, maybe she will learn something before starting her new employment.

[GuestHouse]

So, erm...... Did she show up today?

----

I'm thinking I'd go for the serious loss of face route - put the evidence in front of her (with everyone else around) and ask her to explain herself.

My betting is she'd do a runner on you.

Either way, as others have noted you cannot let her get away with this or you'll be opening the door to all manner of misbehavior.

One thing Thais understand is 'The Boss is in charge' - if you do not take charge they will spot the weakness and you'll find yourself six months down the road having to ask permission from your staff to be allowed to go for a p1ss.

[MHM]

Thanks for all your replies and yes Guesthouse she did show up.

I asked for an explanation which she couldn’t give - she actually asked me if I had changed it! She then suggested her 4 year old who came with a relative to deliver the sick note was the culprit. She categorically denied it was her. We went round in circles for a while and then she asked if she could take the rest of the month off as unpaid leave. Seemed like a face saving move on her behalf. I agreed saying any further behaviour of this kind would result in instant dismissal. I will give her a written warning if she comes on 1st.

A special thanks to Dan.

[chiangmaibruce]

A footnote: No-one has mentioned the possibility that the original 3 day note itself was paid for. I understand that it is not uncommon, but maybe the doctor/nurse involved wouldn't agree to signing off on a 13 day absence

[GuestHouse]

I will give her a written warning if she comes on 1st.

I would give her the written warning now and get her to sign a copy.

1. You would be covering your bases
   
2. Receiving a written warning would most likely add to the reasons why she shouldn't come back at the end of the month.
   

You've caught her out and she's now lying through her teeth - ask yourself do you really want to keep her on?

Give her reasons to leave of her own accord.

But cover your bases - write the letter.

.

[hhgz]

"I ask because there are guidelines for instant dismissal with out severance pay and I want to be sure that I act within Thai law."

Why not fire her with the appropriate severance pay? If she'll cheat you out of 10 days pay, why would you even consider keeping her around? What is wrong with you?

[MHM]

This is my last post on this thread.

I do believe that she was sick. She came back to work in line with the original sick note. (3 days) I know she's lying but I can't see that I've got grounds to fire her given the guidelines for instant dismissal.

I don't want to pay 180 days severance pay.

Overall her work performance has been more than satisfactory. I'll be keeping a close eye on her and she will have a written warning which can be used against her if there are problems in the future.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

[Naam]

Why not fire her with the appropriate severance pay? If she'll cheat you out of 10 days pay, why would you even consider keeping her around? What is wrong with you?

perhaps because she has big boobs?

[onnut]

dont be soft, let them know who is boss!

you have to be pre-emtive with them on most things, so then they are not suprised when you <deleted> em. once you have dished out a few bollockings things will get better for you as your staff will be more in line. be very fair and treat them all the same. I am suprised that there are no books written about how to manage Thais in the work place, it would be a best seller here.

[chiangmaibruce]

I am suprised that there are no books written about how to manage Thais in the work place, it would be a best seller here.

There are a few, one of the better known ones is:

“Working with the Thais – A Guide to Managing in Thailand”, Henry Holmes & Suchada Tangtongtavy, Bangkok Books, 1995

[onnut]

I am suprised that there are no books written about how to manage Thais in the work place, it would be a best seller here.

There are a few, one of the better known ones is:

"Working with the Thais – A Guide to Managing in Thailand", Henry Holmes & Suchada Tangtongtavy, Bangkok Books, 1995

thank you, I will go and buy a copy this week. I have managed Thais for 5 years and still run into dramas.

[Scott]

Best of luck. I would make sure she requests the rest of the month off in writing. I would then respond to her request with a mention of the altered document and upon her return this will be discussed and decision made as to the outcome. Whether or not you can or want to go through the problems of possibly dismissing her, she needs to be put in her place and everyone needs to know that as a dishonest person, she will face reprecussions.

[BigSnake]

Confront her with the note, and the fact that you having seen the oringal sick note, than dock the pay, with a strong warning that next time she will be fired, no matter the PM declare 16 thru 18 holidays, is note an issue here a document was forged is the issue, I as an employer would I really want a person that would do such a thing in my company in a responsible position,>answer>I think NOT. To be fairy by all means listen to her story and let the BURDEN of proof fall on her shoulders, maybe she had over helpful friend in the loops, even at this she should have known what was going own, in addition if possible I would inquiry direct to the Doctor.

[chiangmaibruce]

thank you, I will go and buy a copy this week. I have managed Thais for 5 years and still run into dramas.

No problem. This guy also knows his stuff:

Kriengsak Niratpattanasai

"Bridging the Gap – Managing the Cross-Cultural Workplace in Thailand" (Asia Books, 2008)

His web site is at www.thaicoach.com and he has a regular column in the Bangkok Post entitled "Bridging the Gap".

[torrenova]

Fire her. In this economic client you will have a wide array of talent to replace her. Why give a stinking cheat a second chance? How could a forged note be a misunderstanding? This reminds me of the other thread where a Farang was asking what to tell his friend who's to be bride's family somehow lost his sinsot of 100K and wanted a new one. You let this person walk all over you and you get what you deserve.

Could not agree more. Fire her ass. She has been caught out attempting to commit fraud.

[IMA_FARANG]

I am the owner of a small business, 6 full time staff - work permit, 1 year visa set up. A member of staff has sent in a sick note in which the Dr has given her 3 days sick leave 16th -18th. Someone has changed 18 to 28 and so extended the leave by a further 10 days. I have been to the hospital and have a photocopy of the original which as I suspected should be for 3 days. Staff gossip suggests she will return to work tomorrow -if she does what should my course of action be? I feel like giving her 10 days unpaid leave (given the current business climate I'm overstaffed and would welcome saving a bit of cash). I want to send a very clear message the other staff that this is unacceptable behaviour.

If she takes the 13 days - do I have grounds for dismissal?

Another question - I'm looking into the possibility of job sharing and have 2 full time staff share 1 job (each working 3 day weeks)

Legal implications?

Problems?

Thoughts?

I would think what your course of action is depends on the legal requirements of notification. I don't know what the Thai work law is, but sometimes in other countries an employee can not be fired unless they have a formal written notice of warning first.

I do not know if such a rule applies inThailand, but before you take any action to fire her, I would be sure of your rights in the matter.

I would:

1. Call her into your office, or some private spot, and tell her you are aware of the fact that she lied about being sick. Confront her with the evidence you have. Give her a stern verbal warning.

2. Warn her that you will be giving her a written notice of warning which will be placed on file.

3. Warn her that any further attempt to take off sick time without justification will mean her termination.

4. Do not confront her in front of the others as that will make her lose "face" with the other staff.

Be very sure of your legal position before you take any drastic action. Otherwise it could backfire on you.

In regard to the "job sharing"...is it possible that this woman could be one of the employess picked for the "job sharing"?

It might upset her enough to make her quit...which from your point of view wouldn't be a big problem, would it.