jts-khorat Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 For the second time - I am SURE that the guy wasn't a sexual predator. Do you really think I'd be asking if I should smile if I thought he were?? You and some PC obsessed and unPC obsessed people are going off on some weird tangent. I don't know about the West's perverted thinking and DONT care. Do you touch strangers kids? I bet you don't. Why not? I would not touch other peoples children without being uncomfortable about it (and I relied a story about this just a few posts earlier in this thread); but I am not Thai and I also do not feel this inhibition when together with my girlfriend and in the village as everybody does so and people should know me by now at least from seeing. I would not touch the children of complete strangers in a supermarket, but this is my upbringing; however you asked if this would be abnormal behavior if done by Thais and even though people like Heng and Guesthouse think it does not happen, I have seen it thousands of times. I still must say that I really do not understand your question if you did not think this was a sexual or weird encounter; instead it is a daily occurrence here in Thailand, I bet even in Khon Kaen (however rural or urban it might be nowadays). I had my son living with me here on Phuket and it happened frequently that people would want to hold him as he was small; now that he is 10 and comes here on holiday it still often happens that people would ruffle his hair; agreed those are mostly women but I cannot see anything malicious in it. To Guesthouse: so I assumed wrongly, but where? You do not live in a middle-class and urban situation in Thailand but still do not see people cuddling young children, even those from strangers. Pray, tell me, if it is not middle-class and in the city, where in Thailand do you live and why is it that you see nothing of what I see? To Heng: I would understand your argument about personal space; I am sure displeasure of people who you do not know trying to communicate with your children will be brought forward in a civilized and articulate manner. Which is ok and everybody will understand; however that lots of other posters here advise on immediate violence, even hitting the man without warning or stomping on him seems mad and criminal behavior -- certainly not proportionate force and certainly the worst possible example one can give his own children in their upbringing. Your argument that you would not want your children be touched for hygienic reasons is however just laughable; I am sure you meant it as a joke. Or do your children wear face masks against air pollution and hand-shoes so that they do not need to touch door handles or other surfaces that might have been touched by strangers? I thought not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Theres a difference in touching prepuberty girls and those that are post puberty! Its thai culture they are touchy people. Every time i go to a certain bar the wait staff touches me hoping to get a tip, little do they know i dont like them touching me and will avoid them if at all possible. So were extrapolate what goes on a Thai bar to what is acceptable behavior towards other people's children. --- JTS - we've raised our children in a small moo barn, in which we were one of only two families not 100% Thai (The other was Indian) - by no means a wealthy middle class environment. Why do I not see what you see? -..... erm I'm not you! May I ask. Have you raised your own children in Thailand? --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barky Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I most certainly don't get upset.I live in Thailand, where -thank god- common human interaction is still allowed. That said, no situation is alike, and while I appreciate some kinds words meant in a kind way, there are also people that I prefer to keep my daughter away from. And they're not necessarily all Thai either. Tend to agree Winnie. It would depend on the relationship first. If no relation or family friend my reaction would be different to a woman than a man. And different on how and where the contact was made and even if the offender was clean or dirty. In summary, in some cases I would just ignore it some cases I would show my disapproval from mild to angry. It would be an on-the-spot judgement call.It might even depend on my mood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 In my family, we really don't like strangers to touch our little members also. Embarrassed about the size? Sorry, couldn't help myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) Interesting Heng - thanks. I wonder if my irritation is to do with my false pride, paranaoia, or other defects? If I were a nobody in society, living in a village, then I'd have an easier time accepting it. Strangely, it's usually when I'm with my daughter/s alone. No stranger would dare touch them when my wife was there - I must start shaving and showering daily. As a father who have been stalked through stores by Thai woman when I have walked with my son on my arm...I think in many cases they are just overly curious and partly obsessed with the whole luk krung angle. But it is kinda odd having to speed up to lose a trailing group of women when walking through MBK... Edited April 25, 2009 by TAWP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted April 25, 2009 Author Share Posted April 25, 2009 The cleanliness thing is not an isue for me. So it's not hygiene. And earlier in the thread you said it wasn't sexual. I'm sorry but it's not clear to me exactly what your issue is. Could you expand? Not saying this is true in his case, but it might be something like how some anti-gay, anti-semitic, etc. folks are really gay or Jewish themselves. It's a form of self hate or persecution. Neer has stated in the previous post that the issue is 'foreign' hands so it's possible that we have our answer right there. Not that there's anything wrong with that. We all have our preferences. Sorry, I must have mislead you - the issue is not "foreign". Anyone of my own race/nationality I'd feel the same, well not exactly due to the cultural differences. The issue is "stranger", not "foreign", although a "foreign stranger" is worse. Maybe I AM a foreigner and a stranger I'm not Jewish or Gay, although If I did join a religion it might well be Judaism and If I weren't straight, I wouldn't mind being gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts-khorat Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 So were extrapolate what goes on a Thai bar to what is acceptable behavior towards other people's children.--- JTS - we've raised our children in a small moo barn, in which we were one of only two families not 100% Thai (The other was Indian) - by no means a wealthy middle class environment. Why do I not see what you see? -..... erm I'm not you! May I ask. Have you raised your own children in Thailand? --- As written here, in the same post you answered: I had my son living with me here on Phuket and it happened frequently that people would want to hold him as he was small; now that he is 10 and comes here on holiday it still often happens that people would ruffle his hair; agreed those are mostly women but I cannot see anything malicious in it. My son stayed with me until he was three, but he still comes since then every year in his entire school holidays. That he gets more attention as half foreigner than 'normal' Thai children might get I see as a bonus. That he does not grow up with the intense angst and paranoia of touch as part of human communication as in the west (I certainly grew up in such an environment and it did me no good) I see as another bonus of his childhood experiences here. It is however obvious to him that there is a very clear line if such things would happen if I am not in viewing distance or at least in close vicinity as long as he has no repertoire to protect himself effectively without my help -- 2which he will have to do within a few very short years, time is passing by so fast! There are crazy people out there as your own story with the woman in the supermarket shows. I accept this risk as I think it better my son has a healthy attitude to human closeness and open communication. So far, completely normal people are in the (very) large majority out there so he should be fine; and the situation as described by the OP was absolutely mundane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordWill Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 this is one of those issues where you can learn alot about people from their response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_boo Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 First, I'm a bit anti-social and enjoy living out in the sticks. That still (!) doesn't preclude the fact that my daughter, who just turned one in February, from having people wanting to pet her head, touch her arm, and hold her (only the ladies). However, some type of genetic information that was passed on from me (definitely not her mum) causes her to make funny faces at those unknown people attempting to 'play' with her. I.E., she attempts to express her displeasure--and I've never seen it ignored to the point where she's had to cry to get her meaning across. On the one hand I can understand the appreciation of beauty. The wife's friends kept bothering us as to when we were going to make a luk krueng cause they were sure it was going to be beautiful. I guess the daughter is cute enough even if she has a pear shaped head, but it does get annoying to constantly be the centre of attention. I usually let it slide, or go out and play checkers/drink with the local guys if it starts getting to me. The worst part is visiting some distant realtive or somebody and them telling the wife that the daughter is so cute that the female commentator wants to make one with me! The good thing is that the daughter is never alone; if the wife doesn't have her the mother in law does. In fact it's often hard for me to get quality time with the daughter just from having to pry her away from those two women. On the point of social heirachy; I'm not sure where we stand. We're obviously much better off than most of our neighbours, but technically it's 'new money'. The wife is a simple farm girl, but being married to someone with the purchasing power that I have, does that elevate her to the standing of say the local chemist? I don't know, and frankly don't care. I have yet to see any indication of problems from any of the locals as far as jai damm, so I don't give two rat shits about their social standings. If someone who goes around as a day labourer wants to compliment my daughter, why should his/her access/means to compliment be any different than what's available to the pii yai? As my final point, I attended a funeral for an in-law. There was the usualy gambling and what not. One of the ladies I was playing cards with (bad idea...she's a real shark) had a daughter that was what a foreigner looking on the outside would consider overly friendly. The little munchkin was sitting on my lap (and now that I think about it I would have put it beyond a con where she was telegraphing my cards to her mum!) and just being friendly. Am I a kiddie fiddler? hel_l no. Was I uncomfortable with the situation, even with her mother sitting right there? hel_l yes. All those last paragraphs were a build up to this point; I don't go around touching other people's kids (mostly because I do NOT think all kids are cute), and am annoyed when it happens to my daughter. However, nothing is ever said and I mostly just steam to myself. I don't get upset because I'm a hygiene freak or see Gary Glitter in everyone, but simply because it gets old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave9988 Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 But also like most parents you get a second sense when something's wrong - I knew without asking something was wrong by the look of the face of one of the shop assistants - I ran around the counter to find a Thai woman with a pair of scissors cutting a chunk out of our daughter's hair - I went F@cking berserk - took the scissors off her and cut a chunk of hair off her head that left her half bald. Wow. Every post I read from yours, I can't imagine this happening. I can't imagine any person doing this in Thailand. And I am not saying you were wrong, although you probably were, but, wow, I have never seen anything like this before anywhere and especially not in Thailand. My mouth is on the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave9988 Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I don't want to open this can of worms, but its pretty clear to me that young girls, and I am talking 7 year olds, are more sexualized in Asia than they are in the West. Most Westerners are turned off by children wearing makeup and playing adult and child beauty pageants. its been lambasted in several mainstream movies. In Thailand, its clearly more accepted. I dont know how many 10 year old Thai girls I have seen on those music shows in a mini skirt, cut off tank top and fake eye lashes. Now, I have no idea if Thai men are a much of pedophiles, and I am not saying that, its just an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 The worst part is visiting some distant realtive or somebody and them telling the wife that the daughter is so cute that the female commentator wants to make one with me! Women wanting to have sex with you is the worst part? OK. Please do tell us the best part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave9988 Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 And some of you are really living in another Thailand than I am. Go to Emporium or a higher class shopping mall and see much "touching of children" is going on --> None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibar Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I have 2 young girls also, both look krungs, 2 and 4. People often like to pick them up and want to hold them, but if they are complete strangers i dont let them, unless we know them through someone. I would feel exactly the same as you if anyone starting touching them, i know culturally here its much more acceptable, to touch strangers kids, but who knows what impression its giving your daughter. the key i think is to educate her to know where to draw the line and tell the guy its not acceptable. I know my girl runs a mile when anyone tries to hold or touch her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_boo Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) The worst part is visiting some distant realtive or somebody and them telling the wife that the daughter is so cute that the female commentator wants to make one with me! Women wanting to have sex with you is the worst part? OK. Please do tell us the best part! Yes it is the worst part. Rather than the fantasy tart in a mini-skirt nurse get up, it's the old wizened ones whos remaining teeth are rather nut stained. Just the thought of their 'meat curtains' looking like week old over-fried bacon is enough to make my turtle climb waaay back up in his shell; further than it does when the air temperature back home was below -10..... Best part; waiting for one of the aforementioned *hotties* to propose the same deal with me. And some of you are really living in another Thailand than I am. Go to Emporium or a higher class shopping mall and see much "touching of children" is going on --> None Yep. And glad I don't have to worry about going to Emporium and trying to feel hi-so! **edit** Clearing up some ambiguity with my post..... Edited April 25, 2009 by dave_boo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts-khorat Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 And some of you are really living in another Thailand than I am. Go to Emporium or a higher class shopping mall and see much "touching of children" is going on --> None. Pretty much brings one of my previous posts to the point: move around in Thailand in an urban environment and pretty nothing of original Thai culture and thought might be left and the place starts to resemble more and more any other boring city the world over. This is not in every instance a bad thing, but the Thais with their endless try to 'save face' would have a natural inclination towards the manic political correctness prevalent in the west. It seems they have been successfully infected by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) To Heng:I would understand your argument about personal space; I am sure displeasure of people who you do not know trying to communicate with your children will be brought forward in a civilized and articulate manner. Which is ok and everybody will understand; however that lots of other posters here advise on immediate violence, even hitting the man without warning or stomping on him seems mad and criminal behavior -- certainly not proportionate force and certainly the worst possible example one can give his own children in their upbringing. Your argument that you would not want your children be touched for hygienic reasons is however just laughable; I am sure you meant it as a joke. Or do your children wear face masks against air pollution and hand-shoes so that they do not need to touch door handles or other surfaces that might have been touched by strangers? I thought not. Yeah, I think those advocating immediate violence probably have other issues more serious than folks patting their kids on the head. Nothing laughable about skin diseases, it's super common and more visible if you work in any field related to it. I'm not at our pharmacies everyday, but like I said, it's a very common seller products wise. One of the biggest fear folks have is transmitting their own skin based STD's to their kids. All regular looking folks of all nationalities and all ages, not sweaty-tank-topped sex tourists. Skin to skin has a much higher transmission rate than the traditional door handle/paper currency/etc. to skin. That's why the various health agencies of the world are so big on the most basic of practicies: hand washing.... because most people don't do it and it does spread disease. Edited April 25, 2009 by Heng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 The cleanliness thing is not an isue for me. So it's not hygiene. And earlier in the thread you said it wasn't sexual. I'm sorry but it's not clear to me exactly what your issue is. Could you expand? Not saying this is true in his case, but it might be something like how some anti-gay, anti-semitic, etc. folks are really gay or Jewish themselves. It's a form of self hate or persecution. Neer has stated in the previous post that the issue is 'foreign' hands so it's possible that we have our answer right there. Not that there's anything wrong with that. We all have our preferences. Sorry, I must have mislead you - the issue is not "foreign". Anyone of my own race/nationality I'd feel the same, well not exactly due to the cultural differences. The issue is "stranger", not "foreign", although a "foreign stranger" is worse. Maybe I AM a foreigner and a stranger I'm not Jewish or Gay, although If I did join a religion it might well be Judaism and If I weren't straight, I wouldn't mind being gay. Thanks for the clarification on all points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 And some of you are really living in another Thailand than I am. Go to Emporium or a higher class shopping mall and see much "touching of children" is going on --> None. Pretty much brings one of my previous posts to the point: move around in Thailand in an urban environment and pretty nothing of original Thai culture and thought might be left and the place starts to resemble more and more any other boring city the world over. This is not in every instance a bad thing, but the Thais with their endless try to 'save face' would have a natural inclination towards the manic political correctness prevalent in the west. It seems they have been successfully infected by now. It's not western PC IMO. It's local hierarchical deference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I've discussed this issue with a handful of Thais this afternoon - Definitely rural types, and certainly not middle class - asked what would there response be if a stranger touched, pinched or tickled their child their response was 'why would a stranger do that?' when pressed with 'for the sake of argument suppose a stranger did' their response was again 'why would a stranger do such a thing?' I didn't bother asking if they would do such a thing - it was quite clear that there is a solid line when it comes to interaction with strangers. I don't expect that to surprise anyone - Thai cultural norms make personal interaction with strangers rather difficult as it is. To suggest that Thais go around touching the children of Thais they do not know is at odds with Thai cultural behaviors on a number of levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Touching other people's children or rather the arguments against allowing strangers to touch other people's children has absolutely nothing to do with Political Correctness. But I do accept that for some, Political Correctness is a handy scapegoat for a bunch of their own life's frustrations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bino Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 the key i think is to educate her to know where to draw the line and tell the guy its not acceptable. I know my girl runs a mile when anyone tries to hold or touch her. Good answer- the one that has been on my mind while reading all the pages of this thread. Educating the child to react to unwelcome / unwanted advances will solve the problem, and help her in the future when she is 14 or 21 and you can't be with her to be the protector 24-7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qualtrough Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 And some of you are really living in another Thailand than I am. Go to Emporium or a higher class shopping mall and see much "touching of children" is going on --> None. You are joking, right? The clientele of the Emporium is representative of what percentage of Thailand? Maybe 5%, if that. Any conclusions drawn from behavior observed at 'high-class' shopping malls would only be applicable to a very small percentage of Thais with a strong exposure to Western habits and mores. If you were joking my apologies, too subtle for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 The worst part is visiting some distant realtive or somebody and them telling the wife that the daughter is so cute that the female commentator wants to make one with me! Women wanting to have sex with you is the worst part? OK. Please do tell us the best part! Yes it is the worst part. Rather than the fantasy tart in a mini-skirt nurse get up, it's the old wizened ones whos remaining teeth are rather nut stained. Just the thought of their 'meat curtains' looking like week old over-fried bacon is enough to make my turtle climb waaay back up in his shell; further than it does when the air temperature back home was below -10..... Next time can you just say that the women in question are not attractive rather than painting quite such a graphic picture please!? On a serious note, of all the posts from parents who don't particularly like their child to be touched, your reasoning has made the most sense to me. That being simply that it gets old to have people fussing around and in your face everywhere you go with your child. Completely understand that. For all the parents that are fretting about intentions of the adult or whether they might be carrying a few germs or not, i think your protective instincts are understandable but in my opinion are extreme and unnecessary. Wrapping kids in too much cotton wool is never a good thing. But at the end of the day, we all make our own judgments when it comes to our own kids and don't like being told how to raise them, so you can only comment on what you do/would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave9988 Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) And some of you are really living in another Thailand than I am. Go to Emporium or a higher class shopping mall and see much "touching of children" is going on --> None. Pretty much brings one of my previous posts to the point: move around in Thailand in an urban environment and pretty nothing of original Thai culture and thought might be left and the place starts to resemble more and more any other boring city the world over. This is not in every instance a bad thing, but the Thais with their endless try to 'save face' would have a natural inclination towards the manic political correctness prevalent in the west. It seems they have been successfully infected by now. Its could be PC thing. It could also be an awareness of bacteria or a general heightened sense of manners. "Marketplace behavior", and thats copyrighted by the way all you blogers/Jonathon Head, is more likely to contain a more freewheeling life outlook in regards to social interaction. Is the "real Thailand" purchasing meat that sits out in the sun covered in flies? Surely, we must find a middle ground. Edited April 25, 2009 by dave9988 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 And some of you are really living in another Thailand than I am. Go to Emporium or a higher class shopping mall and see much "touching of children" is going on --> None. For the record, not even there is one 'safe' (if one now try to avoid this). Coupled with the fact that my son didn't mind strangers picking him up (atleast women), but in some cases encouraged it if he 'liked them' (stretched arms out to be lift over, say hi and then 10second later back to daddys arm again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAWP Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Oh, and for the record, the only woman to approach us that actually kissed my son multiple times on the cheeks was a western young girl on an long-distance flight. Just an FYI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorin Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Do your shopping in Villa and Tops instead of Tesco/BigC/Carfour and no one will touch your children there(my guess). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technocracy Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Completely agree with Guesthouse. It really does my head in that total strangers think they can just 'pinch cheeks' or worse want to 'um' . . . when we visit the Morning Market Mall here in Vientiane fair enough we are known and we know quite a few people in the shops and these will make a bit of fuss over our son whose 14 months old. However total strangers - no. I make it completely clear to them they are not welcomed touch or holding my son. Also he doesn't like it either he always pull his hand away from people if they try to hold it and if people want to hold him he'll put up a fight and cry. He's happy walking and exploring while holding mum or dads hand. An example the other day at a phone shop my wife took her phone for repair and he was happily sitting in his pushchair chewing on his dummy (pacifier for you yanks) as he's teething his bigger teeth at the moment. As we were trying the phone a women from the shop decided to wheel his push chair over to the counter and took his dummy of him . . . didn't say nothing to me or my wife just thought she take him to entertain her! So I casually strolled over snatched the dummy out of her hand giving to my son and moved him back to be with us. Just because he's 'luuk sort' it doesn't mean he's a toy for people to entertain them. More than anything the reason he doesn't like people holding him etc is because everytime they do they decide to walk off taking him away from his mum and dad and has learnt this. I've lost my temper on several occasions with people doing this and remind them he isn't there baby and neither is he a toy. Nothing to do with Political Correctness - I have NEVER and I repeat NEVER seen a Lao person do similar things to other Lao peoples babies. My wife certainly doesn't and neither do any of her family those people trying to make out this is just 'normal and acceptable behaviour' are not living in the really world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidoriApple Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 In my family, we really don't like strangers to touch our little members also. Embarrassed about the size? Sorry, couldn't help myself... ..eeiiii.. What do you mean? Sorry, I don't get it. Are you ON or OFF topic? Heyyyyyyy...... better not do the hijacking... Well..as many considerations, 'size' is pretty perfect, I got no any complaints..lol Many addict to this "size"..haha..Sorry, couldn't help myself..(also) Btw, TAWP, are you my SpicyMan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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