Tiling On Top Of Tiles (floor)

[ukfool]

Hi, Have you ever laid on top of shiny tiles ? I hear it can be done as long as they're either sanded a little or have unibond or something like it painted on top 1st ?

Too much work lifting them as large open plan living room, impatient missus, and trying to cut out (my) time & (my) labour, lol.

[bojo]

I've seen two techniques done by locals. Scurfing the surface with a grinding disk, putting slices across and into the old tile and a thin skim of concrete on top and if there is enough room, Thai's I've met swear by a minimum of 5cm concrete on top of old tiles.

regards Bojo

[sometime]

Hi, Have you ever laid on top of shiny tiles ? I hear it can be done as long as they're either sanded a little or have unibond or something like it painted on top 1st ?

Too much work lifting them as large open plan living room, impatient missus, and trying to cut out (my) time & (my) labour, lol.

If you use a good quality ready mix tile adhesive? (not cement). and use a notched trowel with a10mm groove you should have no problem.With the modern adhesives you can even tile directly onto timber floors

No need to sand the floor, you will have to cut a slice out of the bottom of any architrave to allow the tile to slide under, nothing looks worse than badly cut joints filled with grout.

You will also need a good quality flat bed tile cutter, or you could use an angle grinder with a diamond disc, not as good as a tile cutter and very dusty, but needed for any cutouts

[trogers]

I would not allow my contractor to lay new tiles in this manner. Problem is not on quality of adhesive, but on how you are to terminate a 3/4 inch higher floor level at the doorway to the floor of another room.

If I am to spend money to lay new tiles, I will get it done the proper way. Hack off the old tiles plus an inch of the old screed and then lay on the new tiles to flush with floors of adjoining areas.

[ukfool]

Too much work lifting them as large open plan living room, impatient missus, and trying to cut out (my) time & (my) labour, lol.

[weescotsguy66]

Keep to the UK way of doing the job right. Lift the tiles and sand down the floor and lay a self leveling film then do your tiles.

Tell the missus that if is expensive to do rework.

[lopburi3]

You supervise (from the veranda) and have someone else do the removal (they are quickly chipped out) - it will be done in no time and cost very little. Unless you are experienced I would also have them do the new tile. But if a pattern you may have to actively supervise.

[ignis]

Easy way is to use a thin film of Silicon direct onto the old tiles.. No need to sand the old tiles first.

This will not be cheap, but is easy and can be done a bit at a time so can carry on living in the room. + no mess + nothing to mix.

Word of warning you MUST cover the whole tile, if you just use the silicon in a tube with a gun and put it on in blobs or strips there will be a pocket of air so easy for the new tile to crack, nothing worse then sitting down and the tile cracks under you.. also as you lay them do not forget to put some on the edges then no grout is needed..

So if you put the silicon down in strips put the new tile on top and move the tile back and forth so it is totally covered underneath.

[mdechgan]

I wouldn't do it unless the concrete was really thick. Its best to have the old tiles removed. I had my old tiles removed and it was in the installation price. Tiles are really easy to chip out. A chisel, hammer, amybe some concrete nails and remove them one at a time. Shouldn't take longer have to sand the old tiles.

[Sel]

If you use a good quality ready mix tile adhesive? (not cement). and use a notched trowel with a10mm groove you should have no problem.With the modern adhesives you can even tile directly onto timber floors

I did it this way in a shopfront that was used as a business. 50 to 100 people a day walking on it 16hrs a day, not one tile lifted, loosened or moved near 5 yrs now. However my original floor was that smoth type of poured imitation granite?, like concrete poured between brass edges. I used the premium tile concrete powder (US import green bag 250B covers like 20m2 or so) bought at homepro. I didn't scruff or grove the floor. My old school help insisted that it wouldn't last saying that I needed like 5cm of concrete between the new and old floor (3m3 of mixed concrete in total) I had to laugh. Make sure you use some quality grout and do it well. I didn't have the problem of doorways.

[katabeachbum]

I had all the floor-tiles removed in a 160sqm/3 bed/2 bath house, and installed granite all over. In 4 days. No hassle. Took like 3 hours to remove the tiles, and half of them where not even broke. Cheaper than using expensive glues on top of existing tiles.

[excaliber]

I would not allow my contractor to lay new tiles in this manner. Problem is not on quality of adhesive, but on how you are to terminate a 3/4 inch higher floor level at the doorway to the floor of another room.

If I am to spend money to lay new tiles, I will get it done the proper way. Hack off the old tiles plus an inch of the old screed and then lay on the new tiles to flush with floors of adjoining areas.

to properly finish off the doorway threshold or existing floor, a nicely sanded strip of hardwood beveled on one side is an alternative if installing new tiles over the existing ones. There are cement based thinset adhesives available at most good building supply stores for applying the new tile with a notched trowel (as already mentioned). Also, you can use the same mastic used for applying wood floors to existing tile/concrete.

[splitlid]

^ are you serious?

can you post some pics showing where you have sucessfully done this and made it look good, and not a bodge job.

[Crossy]

I've removed the response to the above request for piccies of a job done in the way suggested, it truly does sound a bodge-able job if not done with great care. Adding more than half an inch or so to the floor level does sound like a recipe for disaster

I too would be interested in seeing exactly how it looks, what about doors?

Let's play nicely chaps

[splitlid]

thank you crossy, i think youd have to take the doors off and chop off 3/4 inch from the bottom just to open it.imagine how that would look from the outside.

[excaliber]

Your question, Splitlid, was rhetoric, unless you think the information I posted is bogus. and now we're into name calling ?

Look, I'm making another attempt to help inexperienced people who genuinely ask for help, but for some reason, for that past several years, there's always someone like you who takes the fun out of trying to help others. You don't have to believe the process works, that's your choice. If you ask any professional tile setter from the west you may not feel bullied again. To you and any others who don't want or reject my advice, ignore it and move on, you know what they say, "ignorance is bliss".

[Crossy]

Your question, Splitlid, was rhetoric, unless you think the information I posted is bogus.

Look, I'm making another attempt to help inexperienced people who genuinely ask for help, but for some reason, for that past several years, there's always someone like you who takes the fun out of trying to help others. You don't have to believe the process works, that's your choice. If you ask any professional tile setter from the west you may not feel bullied again. To you and any others who don't want or reject my advice, ignore it and move on, you know what they say, "ignorance is bliss".

Replying as me (not as a mod) I am interested in exactly how this works, what's the maximum thickness that can be reasonably added to an existing floor without causing issues?

In my mind I have images of someone adding 1/4" of adhesive followed by 3/8" tiles thus adding 5/8" to the floor level (more if using granite tiles), issues with skirting (base boards) and doors. It's rapidly looking like removing the existing finish would be wiser at least in many circumstances.

[excaliber]

exactly crossy, thoe ONLY way of doing a proper job of it is to remove the existing tiles and start again.

that's because you have little imagination and experience. The BIG door issue is resolved by increasing the thickness of the threshold and yes, trimming the bottom of the door. You can buy cheap aluminum ones with rubber seals or use a nice wooden one depending on your design....and of course the baseboards need to be moved up for a clean job....but you're right, Just because someone has a lifetime of experience (40 years) in construction, doesn't mean they know everything.....I'm still learning. ...I've used this process in many projects: Industrial, Commercial, Residential.....both in the states and here. When you see the finished product/room, you can't see any faults or "disaster". I guess some improvements don't travel well. I was doing this process 25 years ago with complete success.....In addition, I know this because this is my job, livelihood, etc., whatever you want to call it....but I don't claim to know-it-all....Phew, I though it was difficult trying to get thai workers to understand the processs.....you guys are a tough lot !!! I will soon be making videos of how-to cover up existing floors with tile, wood, stained concrete, acid etching, etc.....

[Crossy]

that's because you have little imagination and experience. The BIG door issue is resolved by increasing the thickness of the threshold and yes, trimming the bottom of the door. You can buy cheap aluminum ones with rubber seals or use a nice wooden one depending on your design....and of course the baseboards need to be moved up for a clean job....but you're right, Just because someone has a lifetime of experience (40 years) in construction, doesn't mean they know everything.....I'm still learning. ...I've used this process in many projects: Industrial, Commercial, Residential.....both in the states and here. When you see the finished product/room, you can't see any faults or "disaster". I guess some improvements don't travel well. I was doing this process 25 years ago with complete success.....In addition, I know this because this is my job, livelihood, etc., whatever you want to call it....but I don't claim to know-it-all....Phew, I though it was difficult trying to get thai workers to understand the processs.....you guys are a tough lot !!! I will soon be making videos of how-to cover up existing floors with tile, wood, stained concrete, acid etching, etc.....

Thanks for the clarification Excaliber.

In your opinion, is all the additional work with doors, baseboards and thresholds worth the time/effort saved on the flooring itself. There must be a break-even point where removing the old becomes more economical.

[splitlid]

so what about when UKfool goes into another room in his house (presuming he has some) does he step from the raised floor down into that room?

[excaliber]

that's because you have little imagination and experience. The BIG door issue is resolved by increasing the thickness of the threshold and yes, trimming the bottom of the door. You can buy cheap aluminum ones with rubber seals or use a nice wooden one depending on your design....and of course the baseboards need to be moved up for a clean job....but you're right, Just because someone has a lifetime of experience (40 years) in construction, doesn't mean they know everything.....I'm still learning. ...I've used this process in many projects: Industrial, Commercial, Residential.....both in the states and here. When you see the finished product/room, you can't see any faults or "disaster". I guess some improvements don't travel well. I was doing this process 25 years ago with complete success.....In addition, I know this because this is my job, livelihood, etc., whatever you want to call it....but I don't claim to know-it-all....Phew, I though it was difficult trying to get thai workers to understand the processs.....you guys are a tough lot !!! I will soon be making videos of how-to cover up existing floors with tile, wood, stained concrete, acid etching, etc.....

Thanks for the clarification Excaliber.

In your opinion, is all the additional work with doors, baseboards and thresholds worth the time/effort saved on the flooring itself. There must be a break-even point where removing the old becomes more economical.

ok. I thought you were more experienced with construction, concrete, etc.

The process I described is done in many parts of the world. Personally, I've done it in the U.S., Singapore, Hong Kong & Thailand without any problems.

and since you deleted my posts, I have deleted the process and instructions before posting this. As I was "spelling-it-out", my wife asked me what I was doing. I told her I was trying to convince some people that the process of laying tile, wood, etc., over existing tile worked. She's seen it done many times so she knows it works, then she said, why are you wasting your time....that's when I deleted the process/instructions, etc.....after many years, I still am of the belief that this forum doesn't want/ accept professional help., i.e., if it hasn't been done by an expat with little or no experience then it's not possible or acceptable.

Edited June 29, 2009 by excaliber

[excaliber]

so what about when UKfool goes into another room in his house (presuming he has some) does he step from the raised floor down into that room?

With your 3D capabilities, you should be able to produce a simple floor, thresholds, step-downs/ups, baseboard, etc... I see you're perfectly fine with preparing 3D renderings for people, for free...that's a great service you provide, and Crossy with his free government house plans.

Unfortunately I like to get paid for 'my work'. Whether it's spending time advising, preparing house designs, plans, etc., if possible.

I've made an attempt, once again to share my experience & knowledge on this forum and once again, kicked in the teeth, ....meaning....."your way would never work", what about this and what about that".....come on guys, no imagination or is your agenda bleeding people for knowledge to get you some extra points or bonus if you're a paid moderator....I could spend more time on this forum if people were more receptive and less defensive or smug.

I see a lot of mis-information given on this forum without rejection or ridicule... I guess some of us have been here too long. ......as I suggested; do a google search for: "how to install new tile over existing tile" or whatever.

[splitlid]

i have asked you serious questions and you get so upset and dont want to explain to us.

all you do is keep abusing me.

very sad really.

[excaliber]

i have asked you serious questions and you get so upset and dont want to explain to us.

all you do is keep abusing me.

very sad really.

Serious questions? upset? abusing you? ...I just receive a pm from another forum member, his words,

"Good job I agree with you, I always wonder why I bother to post helpful info here".

Senior Member

Joined: 2004

Maybe the people who run this forum should make an attempt to make it more 'user/giver friendly'.

and what happened to the original poster? I was trying to answer HIS questions, not respond to your sniveling.....

Edited June 29, 2009 by excaliber

[TheMysteriousMrTesla]

Noob that I am, I too sometimes wonder about the responses to professional advice, I have none to give (I'm an ex-wireless operator) so I'm always on the receiving end

That said, I would have reservations about adding a layer over existing tile unless it was demonstrably sound. Perhaps where excaliber went wrong was to respond to the flame. Maybe he would have been better with the calm rational approach to the 'what about' and 'what if' responses, after all he is a professional and should make professional descisions based on his wide experience.

Anyway, my 2c worth, I'll get my coat.

EDIT AFAIK the forum mods are unpaid, so there is no ulterior motive in their actions.

Edited June 29, 2009 by TheMysteriousMrTesla

[excaliber]

Noob that I am, I too sometimes wonder about the responses to professional advice, I have none to give (I'm an ex-wireless operator) so I'm always on the receiving end

That said, I would have reservations about adding a layer over existing tile unless it was demonstrably sound. Perhaps where excaliber went wrong was to respond to the flame. Maybe he would have been better with the calm rational approach to the 'what about' and 'what if' responses, after all he is a professional and should make professional descisions based on his wide experience.

Anyway, my 2c worth, I'll get my coat.

EDIT AFAIK the forum mods are unpaid, so there is no ulterior motive in their actions.

You're absolutely right, Noob....As a professional, I "should have responded with clear and precise instructions, photos, details, etc., as a professional, being paid would....but the expectations of some of the members on this forum are a joke......ask some of the members that have been here 20 years how they sorted things out....there's was no thaivisa forum or easy access so one had to be creative, adventurous, etc. These days, people get on the internet and want everything for free....example: Wanna & Wannaboon......he wants detailed foundations & structural drawings "for free or as cheap as possible". Over the years I've seen many freeloaders....they want to build a decent house but don't want to pay for the "instructions", plans, etc....sure, things are supposed to be cheaper over here and most things are, although, a decent architect, builder, interior designer, furniture maker, etc., will cost you money. Why try to deceive and manipulate people into giving you the benefit of their experience for free? Here, if you want cheap, you get cheap. you want quality, you have to pay for it.

Once in a while if you're attentive, someone will post some really good information although this forum isn't the last resort for information.

[Tomissan]

Excaliber

Once in a while if you're attentive, someone will post some really good information although this forum isn't the last resort for information.

I tend to agree with you on many of your issues.

I posted something along time ago, "Sinsod, read this first" , and after nearly 15,000 readers, not one response/reply/thanks/ok/sounds good, etc. this forum doesn't seem to have a backbone nor support for people who've been here a long time and/or people who do have knowledge and experience.....I for one appreciate your experience and postings and hope you continue to share it with the less experienced, less knowledgeables and unfortunates.

[lopburi3]

What is done in another country - where the labor cost dictates that it be done that way - is not always the only way; or the best way. It costs very little here to remove/prepare for new tile installation. I firmly believe that is how it should be done for a professional appearance; in Thailand.

[excaliber]

What is done in another country - where the labor cost dictates that it be done that way - is not always the only way; or the best way. It costs very little here to remove/prepare for new tile installation. I firmly believe that is how it should be done for a professional appearance; in Thailand.

You have a point, although consider these things:

1. The time (labor) it take to tile over existing tiles/wood takes much less time than the "traditional way. The tools required are nothing more than a notched trowel, cleaning rags, etc.

2. "professional appearance", if done the way you support, all the tile and thin bed of concrete must first be removed. Lots of noise, dust, debris and 'where to dump everything? In addition, the "traditional way", rough concrete bed then a thin layer of concrete leveled with strings attached from wall to wall. The new tiles are basically laid on top of the fresh concrete without any type of adhesive and more times than not, air gaps/empty space occurs from poor concrete fill. Ok. so now you have a thin bed of concrete (weak) and tiles laid on top of the fresh bed. How professional an appearance do you want. sure, this will look good for maybe a month or so but down the road, the grout cracks (grout is another subject of discussion) due to lose tiles.

Your post/reply doesn't hold water for several reasons. I can tile over an existing floor in a fraction of the time it takes to do it your recommended way. In addition, I can guarantee the integrity; providing you have a sound floor to begin with. If the existing floor has lose tiles, tear em out and fill will thinset (poon tokay) to the level of the surrounding tiles. It's also best to offset the new tiles so the new grout line isn't on top of the old one (for strength & longevity). At the wall, if you don't want to remove any existing baseboard, just leave a small space (1/8"-1/4") and fill with silicone to allow for expansion/movement to avoid tile cracking from outside pressure......then add a length of 1/4 round to cover the gap....if your grout joints are more than butted then you'll probably want to add sand to the grout mix as well and a water-proofing agent/sealer. all available at either homepro or Global House or suppliers.

The way I've described is much easier, faster and cheaper when you consider all the cement, sand, labor to remove and re-do. yes, the thinset adhesive is a bit more expensive, about 120 baht/20 kg, notched trowel/60 baht.......

It's been several days since I posted a "better way" without any positive response/reply so I will leave it with the "do-it-yourselfer's", as this forum is appropriately named, to do the way Lopburi3 recommends and when your tiles start cracking, poping up, etc., you can call your tile man back and re-do it again.

and for TheMysteriousMrTesla, who said "where Excaliber went wrong"....read my lips..........it's my opinion/recommendations based on my experience only and I guess maybe I should apologize to you for not delivering it the way you think best, but I won't.........if you can improve on the techniques I've suggested then maybe you have a voice.....but to tell me how to word my posts is ludicrous, immature & self-righteous..........is this a 'public relations' forum post or how to do something related to tile?

A forum for do-it-yourselfer's is just that, Do it yourself and trust information from other inexperienced people...you can't go wrong.

Edited July 2, 2009 by excaliber

[splitlid]

thank you for your explaination,

you way does work definately, but i believe it is more suited to, as youve already stated, hotels/etc.

most hotels want to save money,no mess,quick job.

however, most hotel rooms have only one room,with a bathroom.the bathroom step down created by using this method is acceptable, as is the step-up into the main room.

the people that stay in the hotel use it for maybe 2 weeks, to sleep/shower/change etc. not to live in. they can get over the fact of the irregularities.

i dont believe most people who live in a house would think it was such a good idea after a while of living there.

especially if there were other adjoining rooms where the step down/up would be more noticeable.

the best method is still to remove the existing tiles, this is alot more work but the end result is much better.

this of course is my best advise i would give anyone who wanted this job done.

but, the op wants an easy way out, so probably your way would suit him.

regards

splitlid (shining in lack of experience)