Starvation And Poverty

[pnustedt]

Whilst watching the starving Sudanese kids on the news last night with my (Thai) wife she started describing what those kids were feeling - going to bed without having eaten for a few days, you wake up with a sweet taste in your mouth, ulcers and sore throat and dry, chaffed lips and all you want to do is be sick.

Then you have no energy to do anything else, and if/when food does arrive you have difficulty eating/digesting it.

I knew that two of her brothers did die of starvation but this really bought home the reality of what happens.

My point of discussing it here is that we tend to forget that many Thais have been bought up in such different circumstances to expats - she did ask me if I had ever experienced this - there is no wonder that they have such a different perspective on life.

[cdnvic]

I think thats where the Mai Pen Rai comes from. I was pretty shocked at how quickly many thais shrugged off the tsunami.

cv

[ProfessorFart]

No Thais have ever been through anything like an African famine!

If she tries to tell you different, throw her in the yard, pass her a grain or two a week, a drop of water too,.......

Edited February 2, 2005 by ProfessorFart

[Jai Dee]

Yes, we are lucky indeed and tend to forget what some Thai's (and other poverty striken citizens of this world) have to deal with.

That is why I admire their sense of family... whether it's an uncle, or an in-law by marriage, or a village neighbour, or an immediate relative... they help each other out with food and money if needed (if they can).

Admirable human quality...

and humbling.

[ProfessorFart]

JD, Get real!

[Jai Dee]

JD, Get real!

Too jai dee you think?

[boris]

While there are still a few Thai children who are hungry (a disgrace in itself) there is no comparison to African famine here.One important consideration, which I have never seen commented on in this forum, is the extraordinary economic transformation that has taken place in Thailand in the last few decades.The soul destroying poverty of say parts of Isaan in the 1960's and 1970's is no longer with us.Of course hardship still exists in places and the distribution of the country's new wealth is grotesquely skewed but, notwithstanding the negative aspects, the economic transformation of Thailand has been spectacular.Returning to the OP, there will however still be plenty of Thais around -some of them relatively young-who will certainly have childhood memories of grinding poverty and real hunger.

[Ajarn]

Though I've also seen big improvements, I've also seen huge decreases in the societal and family structure/support system, just in the relatively short time I've been here...

I think giving Thaksin carte blanche might be good for business (mostly his), but is a huge step backwards in terms of society, ie, corruption, oppression, and a continued moving away from transparency in government and a Free Press..

As one commentary summarised today.... "Funny how democracy got itself into trouble. Whether it can be saved will depend on voters who now have to pick between a man and the system"

[pnustedt]

One important consideration, which I have never seen commented on in this forum, is the extraordinary economic transformation that has taken place in Thailand in the last few decades.The soul destroying poverty of say parts of Isaan in the 1960's and 1970's is no longer with us.

I agree with you, I have been visiting my Isaan wife's village for six years now and even in that relatively short space time the improvements to the way of life of the locals is very dramatic. I have seen the introduction of electricity, a made up road, telephone lines, a medical centre and the school expanded with low cost medical treatment and free schooling.

Four years of this has been under the stewardship of Thaksin and life is still progressing. He will be elected for another term and I hope that he will continue this progress.

My wife is in her fifties - starvation and extreme poverty during her childhood was quite commonplace.

[NedKelly]

I have friends that are in their twenties who had a terrible childhood........enough to bring them to tears if they think about it now !! So it cant have been too bad........and who gives a <deleted> about Africa anyway. No-one is saying that Thailand is worse off than anywhere else, so please do not negate this thread. It is important that poeple understand the past.

[cdnvic]

Yeah, when you're stomach's empty and the roof leaks its not much consolation to know someone else is hungrier.

cv

[chuchok]

I have friends that are in their twenties who had a terrible childhood........enough to bring them to tears if they think about it now !! So it cant have been too bad........and who gives a <deleted> about Africa anyway. No-one is saying that Thailand is worse off than anywhere else, so please do not negate this thread. It is important that poeple understand the past.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Africans.

[cdnvic]

.......and who gives a &lt;deleted&gt; about Africa anyway.

I missed that. A bit immature and heartless I'd say.

cv

[chico]

yes, there are still parts of thailand living far below poverty level, but it cannot be compared with the situation in darfur.

it is ririculous to watch, how US, UN and europe are fighting wether to call it "genocide" or not, but doing almost nothing to stop it and help!

about toksin, yes, it really has brought up thai economy, but he deteriorates the living conditions for pour people.

his denying of giving the farmers the correct papers (chanot) with which they could get cheap loans (around 10%/year) at banks, brings them to borrow money from lenders (5-20% PER MONTH) or his bank too!

his promises of 1mill per village was nice, but he never said they would have to pay back money and 10plus% interest!

and here lies the problem : 10 or 20 years ago, isaan f.e. was very poor, no electricity, no paved roads...

then came farangs, bringing in money, life changes, and suddenly everybody wants to participate - but where does the money comes from (if not from farang) ?

the same happened (and still happens) in europe, just look at former eastern germany, and all the new eu-countries!

[gburns57au]

People are stilll dying of starvation in Thailand....

Does it matter where people are dying....one death from starvation is one too many.....dont you think???

[astral]

Poverty and barely enough to eat, yes.......................

Starvation No.

Anyone can go to a temple and the monks will share what they have with the person.

[aaaaaa]

my wife was born in 1972. and she told me not long ago about her childhood. she started with "yes, I can say we were realy poor". she described how her mom was working whole day - perhaps more than 14 hrs daily - on the rice fileds, always with her back bent down, planting rice or plucking out weeds or whatever, and their superwisor often won't even let them have few mins for having some fast snack, what to speak lunch time. and she would even manage to catch some grasshoppers, the only source of protein, which she would fry for them and add to rice they had their own. but sometimes there was only salt with rice - no even those roasted hoppers. AND many she was paid for her realy hard work - 20 Baht a day ! - she would save, not use. amazing !

but my wife didn't tell all this in sad mood - she narrated this as some humorous story. and finalized with: "nevertheless we as children were always happy and had a lot of fun ! playing in the river and ponds, in the jungle, which is no more nowdays in the areas wher is our house, and always had a lot of friends. I pity those modern kids in the sities who have the only fun - LAN games and can't even breath clear air and touch the real green grass - what to speak of playing in the river or 'hide and seek' in the junge or climbing the mango trees and picking up best fruits there or sitting whole day on the huge tamarind tree in the sourtyard of our home, eating nothing else than this sweetest tamaridn whole day !" etc etc. although she laughs at herself for what is now silly to her - that she was crying so much as a child because she wanted to eat .... 1 whole egg ! because they had 1 egg for 3 of them - mother and little brother. and naturally mother would give her own portion to younger bro - and she would be upset, coz she wanted to eat more....

I guess it has also to do with childish memories, when perception of things and reality is from different perspectives. and yet - I trust her, she won't make this all up.

and yeah, I almost forget - the reason , perhaps main one, why she was telling me all this, not only for joke and comparison of those poor but happy days to modern times.... the main reason is - her love and gratitude to her mother, who sacrifised a lot for kids. brother died in his teens, my wife is the only person her old mother depends on nowdays.

therefore I agree with those posts praising family sense Thai have and their care about even distant relatives. I remember she went with me to POiPet / Ananyaprathet in my last visa run - and she spent several hours choosing some cheap second hand jackets from those piles borught from Cambodian side. I asked her - what for you wanna buy it? if you want to save money - you can do that in Bkk, you know the places like JJ or BoBE market, where you can buy such things perhaps even cheaper and NEW. she explained to me that she buys this not for herself but for her nephews and niesses and .... she has 6 of them !; and that in Bkk such stuff not available - for cold season, coz in Bkk is never that cold as in her province in the North Thailand.

well, I had simply to wait patiently till she completes the 'transaction'. she spent several hours in Bkk washing etc. thse clothes and then send everything to her mom so that she would give to all those kids of relatives.

so, yes, I can say Thais do have this amazing good heart. as always said on that cool advertisment of beer Chang (or is it Singh?) on TV : "khon Thai - Jai deeeee !" -

[Simbo]

Whilst watching the starving Sudanese kids on the news last night with my (Thai) wife she started describing what those kids were feeling - going to bed without having eaten for a few days, you wake up with a sweet taste in your mouth, ulcers and sore throat and dry, chaffed lips and all you want to do is be sick.

Then you have no energy to do anything else, and if/when food does arrive you have difficulty eating/digesting it.

I knew that two of her brothers did die of starvation but this really bought home the reality of what happens.

My point of discussing it here is that we tend to forget that many Thais have been bought up in such different circumstances to expats - she did ask me if I had ever experienced this - there is no wonder that they have such a different perspective on life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This topic started with a Thai girl comparing her own past situation with the Sudanese present problems. I have never been to the Sudan and can only state what I have read and seen on TV.

As the Sudan is a barren waste, due to lack of rain, and political problems. Thailand is a rich and fertile country, where fruit trees grow wild and all manner of vegetation is in abundance, even without cultivation. As we know, the Thais eat all sorts of insects for their nutricional value as well as enjoying them. I cannot see any comparison with Thailand and the Sudan.

Maybe these stories eminate from wanting to impress gullible westerners, or to extract pity. Bring to mind the," When I was young, we didn't have toffees" brigade. Thats my two penneth,

[Spee]

As the Sudan is a barren waste, due to lack of rain, and political problems. Thailand is a rich and fertile country, where fruit trees grow wild and all manner of vegetation is in abundance, even without cultivation. As we know, the Thais eat all sorts of insects for their nutricional value as well as enjoying them. I cannot see any comparison with Thailand and the Sudan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think your points make a lot of sense. Also, not to generalize, but many African countries like Sudan that have these kinds of problems because the governments are more interested in lining the pockets of a few at the top rather than taking care of the multitudes at the bottom.

Countries like the Sudan have these problems because of problems with the government and failures in the culture to adapt. The US and many other countries have thrown literally billions of dollars in foreign aid into Sudan, but nothing changes. Why?

People continue to reproduce knowing full well that they have no means to support their young. Why? Everyone talks about the world being cruel and inhumane by not taking care of these people. But is it any less inhumane to bring children into the world knowing full well that you cannot care for them? I'm not saying that implementing a policy like China is the right thing to do, but the culture needs to change.

Certainly, the Sudan is an arid wasteland versus Thailand, which has rich natural resources for farming. But this problem is easily curable by building de-salinating plants and irrigation. All the desert needs to become workable farmland, is water and the infrastructure to move it around. Parts of Southern California were no different a hundred years ago. It was a desert wasteland. Now it produces huge amounts of fruit and produce.

Sudan could be like this. There are sufficient international resources to fund these sorts of activities. But the government and the people don't want to make it happen. So forgive me, but I think the Sudan problem and others like, boils down to irresponsibility on the part of the people and their government.

You can say what you want to about how things run in Thailand, but by and large, their system does work. People do have an available supply of food, water and medical care. There is sufficient agricultural resources to feed the entire nation with more than enough left over for export. There is sufficient infrastructure to allow all of this to happen. Etc.

[chuchok]

As the Sudan is a barren waste, due to lack of rain, and political problems. Thailand is a rich and fertile country, where fruit trees grow wild and all manner of vegetation is in abundance, even without cultivation. As we know, the Thais eat all sorts of insects for their nutricional value as well as enjoying them. I cannot see any comparison with Thailand and the Sudan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think your points make a lot of sense. Also, not to generalize, but many African countries like Sudan that have these kinds of problems because the governments are more interested in lining the pockets of a few at the top rather than taking care of the multitudes at the bottom.

Countries like the Sudan have these problems because of problems with the government and failures in the culture to adapt. The US and many other countries have thrown literally billions of dollars in foreign aid into Sudan, but nothing changes. Why?

People continue to reproduce knowing full well that they have no means to support their young. Why? Everyone talks about the world being cruel and inhumane by not taking care of these people. But is it any less inhumane to bring children into the world knowing full well that you cannot care for them? I'm not saying that implementing a policy like China is the right thing to do, but the culture needs to change.

Certainly, the Sudan is an arid wasteland versus Thailand, which has rich natural resources for farming. But this problem is easily curable by building de-salinating plants and irrigation. All the desert needs to become workable farmland, is water and the infrastructure to move it around. Parts of Southern California were no different a hundred years ago. It was a desert wasteland. Now it produces huge amounts of fruit and produce.

Sudan could be like this. There are sufficient international resources to fund these sorts of activities. But the government and the people don't want to make it happen. So forgive me, but I think the Sudan problem and others like, boils down to irresponsibility on the part of the people and their government.

You can say what you want to about how things run in Thailand, but by and large, their system does work. People do have an available supply of food, water and medical care. There is sufficient agricultural resources to feed the entire nation with more than enough left over for export. There is sufficient infrastructure to allow all of this to happen. Etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you really believe what you have written about Sudan?

[chico]

to spee : "available supply of food, water and medical care" - my guess, you havn't been to isaan yet!

food - yes, if you can buy it,

water - government water, from the next river or pond

medical supply - anything you have, you get same coloured pills, most of these little provincial "hospitals" (free - yes!!) are not hospitals, but killing stations!!

"sufficient agricultural resources... with enough left for export"

LOS had to buy rice last year from cambodia?

you ever seen a family thriven of her land by loan sharks, because they cannot pay 5%/month, and have no other chance to get money to feed the family, send children to school???

[pnustedt]

This topic started with a Thai girl comparing her own past situation with the Sudanese present problems. I have never been to the Sudan and can only state what I have read and seen on TV.

There are distinct similarities with the situation that I related to that unfolding in Sudan:

My wife's father was murdered - she was 7 yeas old. Nearly all of the kids on the TV were fatherless - most murdered or coerced into one fighting force or another.

There were 5 kids, two of them died - most of the kids on TV had lost family members.

There was food available, the family actually grew rice in their own paddy but it was stolen - no man around to protect their property. There is ample food aid available in Sudan - but it doesn't get to the most vulnerable and needy who are dieing.

The survivors are suffering from malnutrition - the symptoms are the same in Africa and Thailand.

The story is not one being told across a bar in Pattaya to ply a few drinks but a matter of record which relates to my family. The repurcussions of which cannot be easily comprehended by someone who has been cosetted all their life in a welfare state.

This is not an isolated situation but one which occurred in hundreds of thousands of families in Thailand and has profoundly affected the way the victims think and behave today.

[Spee]

Do you really believe what you have written about Sudan?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well ... let's make it easier. What parts of those statements didn't you believe?

[Spee]

to spee : "available supply of food, water and medical care" - my guess, you havn't been to isaan yet!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chico, I think you make some valid points.

I think I said by and large, things do work. I'm sure that there are exceptions just as there are everywhere.

"sufficient agricultural resources... with enough left for export"

LOS had to buy rice last year from cambodia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An interesting point if true, given the large amount of rice exporting. Do you have a link to your information source, or is it an opinion? Just curious, I'd like to read about why.

you ever seen a family thriven of her land by loan sharks, because they cannot pay 5%/month, and have no other chance to get money to feed the family, send children to school???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say it was a perfect world, but by and large the system works. I believe that what you say is true, based upon experiences that my fiancee's family has had.

But the same thing is true in other parts of the world. For example, in many places in the US, laws allow what amounts to legal loan-sharking. That is they legally allow business to give people cash advances based upon future earnings. The problem is that the "house vig" can be anywhere from 5-20% or more of their future paycheck. It may not be a legal crime, but it is a moral crime.

[thaidinnotts]

You only have to dine with an Issan family to realise that there has been or maybe there still is abject poverty. When they eat a Chicken, usually a special occasion, they do not pick off the meat like you and I, they eat the lot, bones, head, feet. When they have picked all the flesh from a Catfish they dont throw the remains to the dogs as I would,it is placed in the larder for later.The bugs that they like to eat! who and why did they find out they were tasty?

[Boh Bpen Yang]

to spee : "available supply of food, water and medical care" - my guess, you havn't been to isaan yet!

food - yes, if you can buy it,

water - government water, from the next river or pond

medical supply - anything you have, you get same coloured pills, most of these little provincial "hospitals" (free - yes!!) are not hospitals, but killing stations!!

"sufficient agricultural resources... with enough left for export"

LOS had to buy rice last year from cambodia?

you ever seen a family thriven of her land by loan sharks, because they cannot pay 5%/month, and have no other chance to get money to feed the family, send children to school???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rice Exports

Another site for info

Thailand and Vietnam will account for nearly half of all worldwide rice exports. This is a long standing fact. Thailand has consistently been the number one exporter of rice in the world for many years (generally far and above).

I am amazed with this fact in conjuction with the life quality of the rice farmers. I would suggest it is a question of 'Where did the money go?' not 'Why is Thailand so poor?'.

Boh Bpen Yang

[chico]

to spee : sorry, no link abouty importing ricr from cambodia, it was on toksin on the news (around july - if i remember right) - but maybe not so true, just to keep the price below 10bt/kg

lending money on future paycheck : what happens if this check does not come?

here, if they cannot pay - and how can you expect someone who has nothing, borrows money to eat, to pay back, not talking about 60% (or more) added interest - the sharks let the amount grow, and then the land is gone!

if you think about it, partly our fault, since we bring money, some families get a little better live, the others see it, want to copy it, "what they have, I want it too" - and nobody want (nor can think) about how to pay back - partly also includes thinking like "buddha will take care of it!"

[bina]

pnustedt ,

i too heard many stories told by issan thai workers here in israel about mothers begging for rice, starving children, etc...

in an other thread, (the gay forum) they were discussing budget.and the difficulties ... now, i see all the workers that i talk too, not budgeting their money when sent home. i know for a fact that a large percent gets given to other family members, pay off debt incurred by working overseas (buy the visa etc) , pay bank on morgtaged land..... but besides those expenses, there just is no planning... they want a new pickup now, and big tape/dvd, and a much bigger house (admit that some live in the old one room stilt shacks or shed type houses and they want to improve, but need it be huge?) and and and and ..... and when i ask about computer or future schooling, the answer is..... too far away in the future and i think too much .

they spend here an awful lot on drink, sometimes half their earnings or more. i know its hard to be away from home but every day liters and liters of cheap vodka is still a lot of money at the end of the day and often they run out of cash for food cause they spent on the vodka so the last week of every month they end up eating eggs and rice with some wild caught food; and i know theyre wives complain about the amount the arrives to the bank

i buy second hand everything for me and my kids, and am willing to wear clothes to work that are falling apart.... my workers wouldnt be caught dead wearing what i wear (the 'face' thing i guess)

i think that maybe the attitude of

plenty of rice in the fields and fish in the river

which started when food was just there for the taking (provided there were no droughts), but as repeated droughts, over foresting,over hunting, cash crop farming started, this plentifulness has disappeared leaving just the attitude....with no planning for the future and also, no real way out of the 'loan shark' cycle, cause once it starts, it s difficult to stop it...

there is of course a difference between abject poverty, and widespread famine /disease ..... but the feelings of hunger, sickness, etc are the same ..... its the same arguement every year in israel when they throw out figures of how many children go to school hungry etc etc.... there is no famine here, but there are lots of children starving (i;ve been in house where the refrigerator is empty even of milk and bread , the israeli staples)....

as for reproduction: more children used to mean more farm hands; now more kids are a financial liability . i seem to recall that most of the 30+yr old workers here, have at least 4-6 siblings (plus cousins living in same house), but they themselves for the most part stop at two or three kids, and most told me that their wives did surgery (tube tying) for simple financial reasons, not 'humane' reasons...

BTW my thai friend reports his wife called to say that dang kitikorn the singer (his cousin by marriage) has had his third child, a boy a few days ago , and dang's wife has tied her tubes now ... ...

of course this is based on migrant workers here, so dont know how much represents thailand in general, just my impressions

[Harmonica]

No Thais have ever been through anything like an African famine!

If she tries to tell you different, throw her in the yard, pass her a grain or two a week, a drop of water too,.......

And India!

[aaaaaa]

No Thais have ever been through anything like an African famine!

If she tries to tell you different, throw her in the yard, pass her a grain or two a week, a drop of water too,.......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And India!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mandela Challenges G7 to Feed the Poor

Thu, Feb 03, 2005

...."Massive poverty and obscene inequality are such terrible scourges of our times ... that they have to rank alongside slavery and apartheid as social evils.

"In this new century, millions of people in the world's poorest countries remain imprisoned, enslaved and in chains," he added. "They are trapped in the prison of poverty. It is time to set them free."

................

"Do not look the other way. Do not hesitate. Recognize that the world is hungry for action, not words. Act with courage and vision."

well, lets see what the mighty will DO ! Blair apperently

has vowed to make Africa one of the priorities of his presidency of the Group of Seven (G7) industrialized nations this year.