Pm Rejects Daad Claims Songkran Rioting Planned By Govt

[HagenvonTronje]

I am not sure Abhisit should have even dignify the slanderous accusations with a denial. ...

yes, that silly propaganda strategy. without all that denials we wouldn't even know that such accusations exist. we would not know that someone is critical with the government. The Nation never brought anything about this red claim before, so why then report that the PM denies this? just keep silent, ignore it and print a picture of a smilling Abhisit instead, he looks so cute and lovely.

funny thing is, that for me, as an avid The Nation reader, it's also new for me that the beloved Leader was in that car that got attacked. OMG, my beloved leader.

before the Nation reported, that Abhisit left the building via a backdoor and is in safety, and that he is NOT in that car. the Nation wrotes also that the car that got attacked was set up as decoy.

mhm, what can i believe in such situations, maybe i should only trust in my wet dreams about my beloved leader.

[monkfish]

Maybe they were expecting the red shirts to clean the windows or something, otherwise why drive in there?

It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. lol

[dieter1]

that it was all fake, was my first thought when I heard about what happened in Pattaya. Thousands of police men and soldiers not able to protect the prime minister and the international guests. They not even did try to protect them !

So what does it mean:

A. the whole Thai army and the whole royal police are just silly puppets. Useless for everything.

But, cant they really be that incompetent ? Not able to prevent that some hundreds red-shirts go where ever they want ?

so there is alternative

B.

It was all put on the stage , just to give the prime minister a reason to blame the red shirts and to have a reason to fight back with iron hand (in Bangkok).

I can not decide what really happened. We can not ! They can tell us what ever they want, can put on the stage, what ever they want. We are not able to look behind the stage....

Edited May 9, 2009 by dieter1

[flying]

people are taught to believe what they are told by their superiors, and not question it,

I'll second that without hesitation! 100% true!!!

funny thing is, that for me, as an avid The Nation reader, it's also new for me that the beloved Leader was in that car that got attacked. OMG, my beloved leader.

before the Nation reported, that Abhisit left the building via a back door and is in safety, and that he is NOT in that car. the Nation writes also that the car that got attacked was set up as decoy.

mhm, what can i believe in such situations, maybe i should only trust in my wet dreams about my beloved leader.

Hey whats up with muddling up their story with facts?

So what does it mean:

A. the whole Thai army and the whole royal police are just silly puppets.

What I saw was classic

They said long ago...remember the PM may be the jockey on the military horse but the owner is..........another (not allowed to mention )

It showed how much respect they had for the current crop of jockeys.

Edited May 9, 2009 by flying

[hammered]

Not all of the red leaders wanted violence imho but they were a divided and weak leadership and lost control of their demonstrators after days of making wild accusations and building hatred towards others. It happens in long demos. Thaksin knew what was happening and furthered it judging by his words and his removal of the family.

It is hard to find anyone outside team red who believes their version of events. Even upcountry their supporters seem embarrassed by it all judging from those I know.

Quite why Thaksin, Jatuporn etc are peddling this when it is falling on death ears is hard to understand. I guess there are still a fair number of the faith rather than reality based committed who are willing to go once more unto the breach

Sad whne negotiation is the way forward. But that leaves Thaksin screwed and that is what team red is really about at this point and his dosh

Edited to add: even TV probably gets it share of the PR army used by Thaksin unfortunately. Their marketing war is well organised and they clearly use the old Israeli PR tactic from the last Lebannon war.

Edited May 10, 2009 by hammered

[LawnGnome]

Not all of the red leaders wanted violence imho but they were a divided and weak leadership and lost control of their demonstrators after days of making wild accusations and building hatred towards others. It happens in long demos. Thaksin knew what was happening and furthered it judging by his words and his removal of the family.

It is hard to find anyone outside team red who believes their version of events. Even upcountry their supporters seem embarrassed by it all judging from those I know.

Quite why Thaksin, Jatuporn etc are peddling this when it is falling on death ears is hard to understand. I guess there are still a fair number of the faith rather than reality based committed who are willing to go once more unto the breach

Sad whne negotiation is the way forward. But that leaves Thaksin screwed and that is what team red is really about at this point and his dosh

Edited to add: even TV probably gets it share of the PR army used by Thaksin unfortunately. Their marketing war is well organised and they clearly use the old Israeli PR tactic from the last Lebannon war.

Interjecting logic into this discussion is only going to confuse the Thaksinistas - Hammered. Best to just use hand puppets and 500 baht notes. Its what they understand best.

[Cayenne]

Yes, this was all a ploy by the government to suppress the red shirts by having fake red shirts attack everyone. Of course, the PAD takeover at the airport last year was also actually by reds wearing yellow shirts and that the PAD leaders who led the takeover were really Veera, Jatuport, and Nattawut wearing fake disguises to look like Sondhi, Suriyasai, etc.

[ThNiner]

Someone should put together every single moment, leading up to Songkran riot, in which the red shirt leaders incited their followers to kill Abhisit, Suthep and commit other violence. Guess when that video clip shows up, the reds would say that those were really not their leaders, but some kind of gov't andriods who came from the future with the intent of killing the (red) mankind?

Edited May 10, 2009 by ThNiner

[animatic]

If desperation had a smell the country would reek this week.

The clutching at straws to discredit The Government is palpable,

like rancid butter on the tongue. 20,000 at the rally, doubtful.

The government set up Pattaya to discredit the Reds???

Not probable at all; The reds leadership was all it took to discredit themselves.

Likely several Red leaders were aghast at the Songkran events,

but those are no the ones IN CONTROL. And the main point being

the bulk of the people who WERE somewhat with them are now quite disillusioned.

Edited May 10, 2009 by animatic

[DaleBlue]

I don't care about the RED or YELLOW or what so ever. When the Yellow is have having fun of the streets and airports, my friends and I put on a yellow shirts and join the party.

Likewise, when the Red were looking for trouble in Din Deang, guess what, my friends and I were there enjoying ourselves (buring tyres, running for cover etc.) too. We also met a lot of people like us, who wanted to experience some mild Iraq equivalents in a peaceful country like Thailand.

What a pity, we miss the Pattaya & Interial Ministry actions. But the airport & Din Daeng was our highlights.

[Plus]

If you are looking for adrenalin rush you can always don a red shirt, go to Pattaya, and try to block Sukhumwit road ro something,

[Jingthing]

My new bright idea. Martial law. All Thai nationals required to wear a shirt of Red AND Yellow, everyday, no exceptions.

[mc2]

My new bright idea. Martial law. All Thai nationals required to wear a shirt of Red AND Yellow, everyday, no exceptions.

start a new poll thread on it i say

[animatic]

that it was all fake, was my first thought when I heard about what happened in Pattaya. Thousands of police men and soldiers not able to protect the prime minister and the international guests. They not even did try to protect them !

So what does it mean:

A. the whole Thai army and the whole royal police are just silly puppets. Useless for everything.

But, cant they really be that incompetent ? Not able to prevent that some hundreds red-shirts go where ever they want ?

so there is alternative

B.

It was all put on the stage , just to give the prime minister a reason to blame the red shirts and to have a reason to fight back with iron hand (in Bangkok).

I can not decide what really happened. We can not ! They can tell us what ever they want, can put on the stage, what ever they want. We are not able to look behind the stage....

C

In Pattaya :

The government and Army allowed the Thaksin aligned Pataya police to screw up,

as a great excuse to remove them.

Let the Red shirts screw up utterly on international TV.

Showing their true colors and leaders machinations for all to see.

And let Thaksin then start running his mouth filled with lies, and MASSIVELY discredit himself...

on world wide TV in interviews, based on a script that was not even vaguely like reality.

Then the Army came in a acted with a surprisingly controlled and light hand to clean it up.

The ONLY ones screaming blood murder are the totally discredited Reds in their disarray

and the obviously THAKSIN branch leaders of the PTP opposition.

That week started APPEARING bad, but....

Though it may not have been a set up in the begining,

they let it play out and escalate just enough.

All in all a pretty good week for those in power.

Edited May 10, 2009 by animatic

[hammered]

Just sat having a few beers with some working class Thai guys. One topic that briefly got mentioned but not by me was they didnt understand why Thaksin and his followers were saying they didnt riot (paraphrase). Apparently everyone saw it on TV and it was very bad. Then more important subjects were discussed like who was going to win the English Premier League.......

[Koo82]

When I saw this car with the heavy tinted windows drive into the red crowd I wondered what the &^%$ is that?

Then they came on & said it was the PM's car.... I immediately thought....It may be his car but there is no way he is in it. Nor would there be any reason for him to be in it & drive into a crowd of red shirts. If anyone saw the actual footage they know what I'm referring to. Car drives in stops ....let folks beat on it awhile...drive slowly to another spot....stop let folks & a monk beat on it

Does that seems like a logical thing to do?

Well said. Abhisit did not dare to go into Government House on that day. How could he dare to sit inside that car?

This was talked last night by Jatupon at the red meeting at Wat Phai Kiew. Jatupon asked the reds who have their name in arrest list to report to police. Money the reds have donated will be spent on their bails. Jatupon said 9 soldiers were there that day to build the scene and they are in arrest list too.

We could watch the meeting via MVtv Variety as DStation is still closed.

They showed a video by DStation reporters. The car people thought Abhisit was inside had tinted windows for back seat but not the front. They said they saw through that glass there were driver and one man at front. No one at the back.

[Koo82]

I don't care about the RED or YELLOW or what so ever. When the Yellow is have having fun of the streets and airports, my friends and I put on a yellow shirts and join the party.

Likewise, when the Red were looking for trouble in Din Deang, guess what, my friends and I were there enjoying ourselves (buring tyres, running for cover etc.) too. We also met a lot of people like us, who wanted to experience some mild Iraq equivalents in a peaceful country like Thailand.

What a pity, we miss the Pattaya & Interial Ministry actions. But the airport & Din Daeng was our highlights.

Are you serious? They believe anything happening that day was done by the reds. When I said fake reds were there, some people don't believe me.

They think these people are the reds at Din Daeng on 13th April:

[Koo82]

Jatuporn seems to believe, that just because he claims the PM wasn't in the car, it makes the actual attack OK ?

Jatupon's point is the scene was set up by Abhisit's people to have something violence so the State of Emergency sounded right, and the reds fell into that trap.

Abhisit called 12th April an off day. Most reds left Victory Monument (they blocked one day if I'm not wrong). No one understands why Abhisit declared SOE.

The mess at Pattaya was over. The reds came back to Bangkok.

[animatic]

I don't care about the RED or YELLOW or what so ever. When the Yellow is have having fun of the streets and airports, my friends and I put on a yellow shirts and join the party.

Likewise, when the Red were looking for trouble in Din Deang, guess what, my friends and I were there enjoying ourselves (buring tyres, running for cover etc.) too. We also met a lot of people like us, who wanted to experience some mild Iraq equivalents in a peaceful country like Thailand.

What a pity, we miss the Pattaya & Interial Ministry actions. But the airport & Din Daeng was our highlights.

Are you serious? They believe anything happening that day was done by the reds. When I said fake reds were there, some people don't believe me.

They think these people are the reds at Din Daeng on 13th April:

A picture of two guys in black hoods, and no colors shown, and no landmarks toi show place, let alone Time and Place

and one hand grenade, could as easily been from Oct 7th 2008 as any time in between then and now.

Sorry there is NOTHING to add this to ANY Songkran troubles.

Even considering that there are ZERO reports of ANY grenades used that day.

[TAWP]

Not to mention, trouble-makers - which could include people during Songkran in the reds - likes to wear black and be hooded. Doesn't mean they aren't payed or honest red's, just that they had gear for the job in different color...

[HagenvonTronje]

I don't care about the RED or YELLOW or what so ever. When the Yellow is have having fun of the streets and airports, my friends and I put on a yellow shirts and join the party.

Likewise, when the Red were looking for trouble in Din Deang, guess what, my friends and I were there enjoying ourselves (buring tyres, running for cover etc.) too. We also met a lot of people like us, who wanted to experience some mild Iraq equivalents in a peaceful country like Thailand.

What a pity, we miss the Pattaya & Interial Ministry actions. But the airport & Din Daeng was our highlights.

Are you serious? They believe anything happening that day was done by the reds. When I said fake reds were there, some people don't believe me.

They think these people are the reds at Din Daeng on 13th April:

A picture of two guys in black hoods, and no colors shown, and no landmarks toi show place, let alone Time and Place

and one hand grenade, could as easily been from Oct 7th 2008 as any time in between then and now.

Sorry there is NOTHING to add this to ANY Songkran troubles.

Even considering that there are ZERO reports of ANY grenades used that day.

exactly, such pics dosn't say so much nor proof any red or other colour delinquency. i think that is what koo wanted to demonstrate. she is great in doing it.

2nd step would be now to bring real waterproof evidence of the red super violence on songkran. violating traffic laws, yes, that is documentated, but more?

[TAWP]

exactly, such pics dosn't say so much nor proof any red or other colour delinquency. i think that is what koo wanted to demonstrate. she is great in doing it.

2nd step would be now to bring real waterproof evidence of the red super violence on songkran.

P_D>>Atleast you are consistent in your abuse of logic.

If Koo wanted to prove that red's was peaceful, surely she would post video-clips and photos showing that, and not pictures of hooligans and claim they are 'faked red'. Or un-sourced photos of individuals and claim they showed any proof of infiltration into the red camp.

So atleast we are in agreement that there was hooligans in the crowds...

Next demonstration they just have to remember to tell anyone that wanna do anything bad to dress in black before throwing something so they, the reds, can retain plausible deniability.

[sbk]

exactly, such pics dosn't say so much nor proof any red or other colour delinquency. i think that is what koo wanted to demonstrate. she is great in doing it.

2nd step would be now to bring real waterproof evidence of the red super violence on songkran. violating traffic laws, yes, that is documentated, but more?

Just curious if you, koo and others who support the redshirt cause would give the same benefit of the doubt to those wearing yellow shirts?

[HagenvonTronje]

exactly, such pics dosn't say so much nor proof any red or other colour delinquency. i think that is what koo wanted to demonstrate. she is great in doing it.

2nd step would be now to bring real waterproof evidence of the red super violence on songkran. violating traffic laws, yes, that is documentated, but more?

Just curious if you, koo and others who support the redshirt cause would give the same benefit of the doubt to those wearing yellow shirts?

actually i can not speak for koo, and i think she have an complete other mission here, for 'her PM' as she choosed her words. but i think the thaksin hate movement is much more stronger focussed on thaksin than the reds.

if i have my doubts in that what what the PM and the army has to say and call it a propaganda farce, not sure if that makes me to a red shirt.

i am looking for Facts, if you can provide something, like clear evidence that songkran have been super mass riots and not just 5 burning tires, a few hooligans here and there and traffic laws violation, please bring it. every content is welcome.

i don't favour so much rhetorical ping pong arguments.

[sbk]

so, your answer is no answer then? It seems a simple enough question to me and yes, I would be interested in a real answer. If the situation were reversed, or if the yellow shirts made the same claim regarding violent incidents during their demonstrations, would you give them the same benefit of the doubt you give the redshirts?

Yes or no?

[HagenvonTronje]

so, your answer is no answer then? It seems a simple enough question to me and yes, I would be interested in a real answer. If the situation were reversed, or if the yellow shirts made the same claim regarding violent incidents during their demonstrations, would you give them the same benefit of the doubt you give the redshirts?

Yes or no?

i am on that 'was abhisit in the car or not issue'. the first thread to that topic appear a couple of days ago in the general forum. Jatuporn: Pm Not In Attacked Car but was apparently not important enough to get moved to the News forum, not until the PM had his deny statement in The Nation. the OP opened a new topic, ignoring the already existing thread and ongoing discussion and only that got moved to the News forum, lead to a debate with almost no content. (it's more like a chat room conversation here.) and now i shall answer here some off topic question if i am maybe bias and don't have a bleeding heart for the yellow team? or what is the intention for your question?

okay, for a yellow case, same same, i would not scream blue murder without any closer look. and i would back up my opinion with facts, with words of wise man and sources that can be trusted, check if information can be verified or back up my own assumption with a collection of jigsaw puzzle pieces to get a picture clear enough that allows me to draw conclusions.

that would be my approach. it always starts with doubts. challenge and question. thats the way to come to an answer. and everybody is invited to challenge and question my posts and conclusions

a media farce under a red PM and censorship by a red government i would equally scrutinise. no worry. but at the moment i see no need to write any additional hysteric 'omg, evil thaksin he buys all the thugs with 500 baht per day' post. but it seems that a couple of TVforum members can accept only post of such a nature.

i am sitting in a trench the thai media failed to choose, i am not throwing red propaganda grenades into the discussion.

[BigSnake]

Yet more finger pointing, shame and sadding

[Ricardo]

Pheu Thai Party MP Jatuporn Promphan had on Thursday said Abhisit and Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban were not in the cars that were attacked by red-shirted protesters at the Interior Ministry.

<snip for brevity>

He said former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra would not phone in to the event but that he, Veera, would expose the truth that Abhisit was not in the bulletproof car as he claimed.

Jatuporn seems to believe, that just because he claims the PM wasn't in the car, it makes the actual attack OK ? His vision of justice & true democracy seems to include the right of his followers to attack cars like this. Scary but revealing too.

Why can't he admit, his people got out-of-control, or were instructed and incited to do this ? Oh, that's right, they weren't his people at all, but soldiers dressed-up in red-shirts, or alien lizards, erm ... erm

Black is now white, hot is now cold, in Thaksin's World !

Jatupon's point is the scene was set up by Abhisit's people to have something violence so the State of Emergency sounded right, and the reds fell into that trap.

Abhisit called 12th April an off day. Most reds left Victory Monument (they blocked one day if I'm not wrong). No one understands why Abhisit declared SOE.

The mess at Pattaya was over. The reds came back to Bangkok.

So Jatupon says it was a trap, which the red-shirts fell into, therefore it was his followers who attacked the car, which they believed the PM was in, and they somehow makes them blameless for the act of violence ?

Face it, the red-shirts chose to attack the car, and were filmed doing so, which they believed had the PM inside, having previously been incited to 'get' the PM. The red-shirts thus chose to stop their legitimate peaceful protest, and became a rioting mob, in the name of what they were told was democracy.

If this was a trap, Jatupon and Thaksin led them straight into it, perhaps they might apologise for their poor leadership ? Or perhaps not.

[sriracha john]

so, your answer is no answer then? It seems a simple enough question to me and yes, I would be interested in a real answer. If the situation were reversed, or if the yellow shirts made the same claim regarding violent incidents during their demonstrations, would you give them the same benefit of the doubt you give the redshirts?

Yes or no?

i am on that 'was abhisit in the car or not issue'. the first thread to that topic appear a couple of days ago in the general forum. Jatuporn: Pm Not In Attacked Car but was apparently not important enough to get moved to the News forum, not until the PM had his deny statement in The Nation. the OP opened a new topic, ignoring the already existing thread and ongoing discussion and only that got moved to the News forum, lead to a debate with almost no content. (it's more like a chat room conversation here.) and now i shall answer here some off topic question if i am maybe bias and don't have a bleeding heart for the yellow team? or what is the intention for your question?

okay, for a yellow case, same same, i would not scream blue murder without any closer look. and i would back up my opinion with facts, with words of wise man and sources that can be trusted, check if information can be verified or back up my own assumption with a collection of jigsaw puzzle pieces to get a picture clear enough that allows me to draw conclusions.

that would be my approach. it always starts with doubts. challenge and question. thats the way to come to an answer. and everybody is invited to challenge and question my posts and conclusions

a media farce under a red PM and censorship by a red government i would equally scrutinise. no worry. but at the moment i see no need to write any additional hysteric 'omg, evil thaksin he buys all the thugs with 500 baht per day' post. but it seems that a couple of TVforum members can accept only post of such a nature.

i am sitting in a trench the thai media failed to choose, i am not throwing red propaganda grenades into the discussion.

Can't really expect a short and simple single word answer, sbk.

Especially when given the opportunity to ramble for three nonsensical paragraphs to give a non-answer is presented ...

[hammered]

Outside extreme red supporters few believe Jatuporn's theory and that includes many red sympathisers. Quite frankly people believe what they saw with their eyes on the news reprots of the day and the news cycle has moved on for all but the politcally obsessed and media observers 101.