Pasture Grass

[MrWiggle]

What is a good and easy pasture grass to grow here for either cattle for beef or sheep ? Only a couple of rai as it can be irrigated all year when required it should keep full growth easily.

Needs to be able to handle some flooding, nothing severe, just maybe underwater for a few days a couple of times a year before subsiding quickly.

Cheers.

[JungleBiker]

What is a good and easy pasture grass to grow here for either cattle for beef or sheep ? Only a couple of rai as it can be irrigated all year when required it should keep full growth easily.

Needs to be able to handle some flooding, nothing severe, just maybe underwater for a few days a couple of times a year before subsiding quickly.

Cheers.

Hi Mr Wiggle,

"Ubon Paspalum" will handle some flooding. For seed, contact your local Department of Livestock Development office - if they don't sell it, then they can probably tell you who does.

JB.

[MrWiggle]

Thanks, yes I remember Paspalum from back home now.

[teletiger]

With 2 Rai you can irrigate all year round (pond water, not bore water, right?) you will be much better off financially to do mixed veg or even something like 1 Rai dragonfruit and 1 Rai mixed veg. 'Or anything but bulls and sheep. You've got a market for lamb? Beef prices are on the floor. Have been for 2 years. People here are getting 5/6000 Baht for cow/calf combinations. A good time to buy, if you have a vision. 2 Rai isn't a vision...it's 2 Rai

Please don't think I'm getting on your case Mr Wiggle. I apologize for my curtness about the charcoal.

I've....my wife has been farming here a few years now and potholes are at every turn. We've fallen into most of them and are glad to advise people of their whereabouts.

If you are still set on the pasture idea, I will gladly give you, IMHO, a reply.

Regards

[MrWiggle]

Hi TT....we have 7 rai on this property and another 8 rai elsewhere.

The 7 rai we have about 5 or 6 of it planted with fruit trees and veges......experimenting by trial and error. We are not doing this for a commercial venture, but for our own family food so we know what we are eating and to give away to friends, temples and local school and workers etc.

The 2 rai which is part of the 7 rai is on the river bank, we have water all year in the river, but it does flood from time to time in bad rains, but drains away very quickly.

This 2 rai simply because it floods, I do not wish to plant to veges, seasonal crops or fruit trees, as when you cannot grow anything there because of the flood probabilities, the weeds takeover and become 10 feet tall.

So, the sheep or the cows are again to manage the weeds/pasture and provide meat for a hungry aussie family.

Couple all of this with doing it organically and see this thread in Organic section.....and you can see where I coming from....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Storyadvice-...me-t265330.html

Cheers

[teletiger]

Doing it for yourself and others is different and admirable, I might add.

Personally I'd leave the native grasses in there and just over-sow with a fast growing legume. (Bean or peanut)

What the native grasses lack in protein value, they more than make up for in growth vigour. With only 2 Rai you need quantity not quality. If the pasture won't grow back fast enough it will be grazed down to roots. I might suggest a few goats in there too, as they will tackle the tougher stuff that cows and sheep tend to leave. (unless it's a last resort)

Start with just a few animals and you can add more as you gauge the capacity of the pasture.

One problem with sheep is local dogs.

Good luck Mr Wiggle.

Regards.

[tim armstrong]

Doing it for yourself and others is different and admirable, I might add.

Personally I'd leave the native grasses in there and just over-sow with a fast growing legume. (Bean or peanut)

What the native grasses lack in protein value, they more than make up for in growth vigour. With only 2 Rai you need quantity not quality. If the pasture won't grow back fast enough it will be grazed down to roots. I might suggest a few goats in there too, as they will tackle the tougher stuff that cows and sheep tend to leave. (unless it's a last resort)

Start with just a few animals and you can add more as you gauge the capacity of the pasture.

One problem with sheep is local dogs.

Good luck Mr Wiggle.

Regards.

Hi Wiggle,

I agree with Teletiger about the legumes. The problem with fattening pasture animals in Thailand is - all that green grass and no substance to it. Its a telling sign that most cattle here are very thin, have shitty bums and graze all day, because they can't get enough from the green grass. In Oz the best animals fatten away from the coast where the grass has seed and protein and is drier. The best cattle I have seen here are all stall fed and raised in pens.

I'm not too sure about the sheep idea. Apart from the lice, tick and other parasites in their wool, and potential footrot it's generally too humid and wet for them, maybe except in parts of Isaan or the northen provinces. Yes agree about the dogs. There are a few South African varieties around that look more like goats, they seem to adapt well. But I'd forget about the tradional western breeds, or anything that has much wool. The other problem is that all sheep tend to pull the grass out rather than chew. In Oz the ground as you know is much harder, so they don't leave so many bare patches, but different story in Thailand. But, if you do manage to produce a few good fat lambs let me know how you did it ! Near Nakhon Sawan the BBC has a radio relay station (monitoring station?) for China and SE Asia. They have a small flock of lean mixed breeds keeping the grass down. They look OK.

Back to the grass, If I could I would grow lucerne, it has everything and is great for the soil, but it doesn't like wet feet. Regards.

[MrWiggle]

Yes, lucerne was my choice, but as you say does not like wet.

As for the sheep, I will be giving them a go.....I have shorn one or 2 in my day....mind you I mean 1 or 2....actually about ten. But I had done a lot of dagging. I think i could remember how to do it as required....even just one a day. All the concerns noted and same concerns I had, but i do know someone who is raising them successfully, so will be chatting to him soon. Humidity, ticks, dogs, flyblown etc will be problems.

Thanks for the advice re leaving the natives grasses, yes sounds sensible and i shall give that a go....how to sow a fast legume amongst the natives though ?

[tim armstrong]

Yes, lucerne was my choice, but as you say does not like wet.

As for the sheep, I will be giving them a go.....I have shorn one or 2 in my day....mind you I mean 1 or 2....actually about ten. But I had done a lot of dagging. I think i could remember how to do it as required....even just one a day. All the concerns noted and same concerns I had, but i do know someone who is raising them successfully, so will be chatting to him soon. Humidity, ticks, dogs, flyblown etc will be problems.

Thanks for the advice re leaving the natives grasses, yes sounds sensible and i shall give that a go....how to sow a fast legume amongst the natives though ?

Now if you start to breed a few sheep, I will be fascinated how you explain to Customs what your box of green elastrator rings and the pliers are for. But like Oz you could do the lamb marking the old fashioned way, and simply cut them out. Our dogs just loved marking time. (Actually I don't think its allowed in Oz anymore). I have also shorn a few sheep in my time - mainly stud merinos by hand. Perhaps we could start a whole new OTOP industry and give demonstrations, and get some hand spinners in?

[teletiger]

Mr Wiggle. One of your nieghbours will have a small tractor with a grass cutter attachment. (a flat, metre square box, sits almost on the ground) Get him to run over the pasture with the cutter set to 3 or 4 inches. (a cutter collector would be even better) Clear it all off, sow the seed, then get him to run over it again with the cutter set 1 inch lower. Make sure the pasture doesn't dry out for the first two weeks.

If you can't get a grass cutter get yourself 2 big strong boys and a couple of sharp scythes. Cutting the extra inch won't be possible with scythes, so just make sure the pasture stays damp for the first 2 weeks. Leave for 6 weeks, (longer is better) add sheep.

Regards.

[MrWiggle]

Thanks....funny should mention. We been calling around today looking for a slasher, nobody seems to have one in our area, strange. We use a couple of locals for ploughing but they do not have or know anyoine that does.

The old fashioned way at 200b a day looks the go.

And TA...the real old fashion way was by the teeth...ewe first but.

[Pierrot]

Mr Wiggle. One of your nieghbours will have a small tractor with a grass cutter attachment. (a flat, metre square box, sits almost on the ground) Get him to run over the pasture with the cutter set to 3 or 4 inches. (a cutter collector would be even better) Clear it all off, sow the seed, then get him to run over it again with the cutter set 1 inch lower. Make sure the pasture doesn't dry out for the first two weeks.

If you can't get a grass cutter get yourself 2 big strong boys and a couple of sharp scythes. Cutting the extra inch won't be possible with scythes, so just make sure the pasture stays damp for the first 2 weeks. Leave for 6 weeks, (longer is better) add sheep.

Regards.

Where to buy one in Thailand ? Just yesterday I needed to cut a path to access a pond, it would be much faster to use a scythe than to start the grass cutter. (False or scythe, what is the most common name ?)

On the same subject, a few month ago I was looking for a pitchfork at my local store. I was trying to explain what I wanted when the sales guy stopped me and told me "I know what it is, I saw it in movies, but we don't have it in Thailand". I later found the gardening kind but never the farm kind.

[ozzydom]

Yes, lucerne was my choice, but as you say does not like wet.

As for the sheep, I will be giving them a go.....I have shorn one or 2 in my day....mind you I mean 1 or 2....actually about ten. But I had done a lot of dagging. I think i could remember how to do it as required....even just one a day. All the concerns noted and same concerns I had, but i do know someone who is raising them successfully, so will be chatting to him soon. Humidity, ticks, dogs, flyblown etc will be problems.

Thanks for the advice re leaving the natives grasses, yes sounds sensible and i shall give that a go....how to sow a fast legume amongst the natives though ?

Now if you start to breed a few sheep, I will be fascinated how you explain to Customs what your box of green elastrator rings and the pliers are for. But like Oz you could do the lamb marking the old fashioned way, and simply cut them out. Our dogs just loved marking time. (Actually I don't think its allowed in Oz anymore). I have also shorn a few sheep in my time - mainly stud merinos by hand. Perhaps we could start a whole new OTOP industry and give demonstrations, and get some hand spinners in?

Ah ,the memories of my Joseph Rogers in one hand,bottle of dettol in the other and blood dribbling down owns chin.

[rice555]

Hello Pierrot, you said "On the same subject, a few month ago I was looking for a pitchfork at my local store. I was trying to explain what I wanted when the sales guy stopped me and told me "I know what it is, I saw it in movies, but we don't have it in Thailand". I later found the gardening kind but never the farm kind."

I have a Thai made 4-tines pitchfork(hay fork), cost around Bt.100. with NO-handle. Handles run Bt.75-90. It doesn't handle well like a good drop-forged fork with curved handle for good leverage.

rice555

[Maizefarmer]

Mr Wiggle - heres my 2cents on the subject (and between forage/pasture grass and maize I have just over a 1000 rai of the stuff - grown year round!).

If its only 2 rai and you are going to get literaly a couple days per annum complete soil saturation from flooding - you have 2 practical choices:

1) Luzy/Lucie - (Thai's and the pronounciation of the letter R) - or Ruzi as it is better/more correctly known.

2) Guinea - purple variety

These 2 forage/pasture grasses account for 3/4plus of managed Thai forage grass cropping.

Both are realtively easy to manage, grow well across the country, and reasonably tolerable of varying soil conditions. Given that it's for around 2rai, I wouldn't bother to manage the soil to perfection - just go so far as to get a decent balance on N, P and K levels, and so long as the soil has been prep'd decently (a good cross cut with the old disc plough as deep as possible that the tractor can do it at), then get the family out with buckets of seed stock, seed by hand, give it light rake over and then a good watering (2rai - possible with a small single phase pump and a single sprinkler) and within a week or so you'll get shoots coming up.

Google cultivation techniques for both these grasses - the net is full of info that is applicable to Thailand specifically: but what you are going to have to build into your managment of this 2rai is whether or not you are going to "cut 'n carry" (i.e. not allowing the livestock to feed off the crop on the land, but to cut it and feed it in stall to the livestock), or if you are going to allow them to feed off the land.

Both have pros and con's:

The primary pro to "cut n carry" is that crop can be recut at +/- 3week to 6week intervals through the year, without replanting required for roughly 36 months i.e. the crop is going to last as it will not be damaged by livestock (e.g. be trampled or have its root stock torn up).

The con - yup, you guessed - its the labour: someone has to literay cut and carry on a daily basis (if you wish to feed fresh daily - and little point in that unless its a bunch of milking cows you are feeding - then fresh daily cuts are essential), but still a weekly or twice weekly cut will still be needed. So thats time, time is labour, labour is money ... blah blah, blah blah.

The primary pro to allowing the livestock to feed off the land is of course, you don't have the labour as described above (obvious). The con is that the root structure is going to get progressively torn up, and within 3 - 6 months you are going to have extensive bare patches and large sections of uneven growth (the uneven growth progressing exponentialy as the more it happens the more your livestock will seek out the shorter and more tender growth - which is easier to process in their guts, is sweeter and contins more nutrient). The end result: with a year you are going to have to replough and reseed.

The 3rd alternative is a balance between the above 2: strip-grazing - the use of an electric cattle fence (actually it can be done with a single strand of common fence wire at the right height) to control the area/sections over which your livestock are confined for grazing - which is moved daily.

As said, you will still get clumps pulled out, but you will be able to re-seed by hand, and you will be able to maintain more-or-less constant growth.

How effectively the 2rai are used when strip grazing is a balance between how many head are allowed to feed on it per day, and how much you want the grass to regrow between allowing the livestock to return to previously grazed patches (and of course the amount of irrigation) - Lucy and Guinea vastly different rates of growth, which are dependant on the amount of irrigation or rain received.

So thats the next point (and why I raised at the start). You should make a decision as to whether or not you wish to irrigate or not (2rai - sprinkler is really the only via option in my opinion for 2 rai). It will have to be regular (the more grass you want - becaus eof the amount of livestock head - whatever the number is) the more irrigation you'll need. The result: the softer the ground will be, the easrier the root structure is torn up.

Heres a yardstick: 2 rai will maintain 4 head of cattle year round very well if its "cut 'n carry" or strip grazing (meaning regrowth length & volume between cutting and grazing will be sufficent for both Guinea and Ruzi to supply enough nutrient to support the 2 head healthly, but not if they are allowed to feed off the land - the problems will start appearing within a first couple months.

Dry season versus wet season (even with irrigation): expect around 15 - 30% reduction in growth.

So if you adopt cut 'n carry or strip grazing, give thought to ensiling a percentage for dry season feed, or to be used in combination in the dry season with the reduced fresh feed growth. Both Guinea and Ruzy ensile well if chopped down to size, and can be ensiled in smallish bales rather successfully (just keep the rats and mice away).

In any event, the max time frame you can expect to get before been forced into a replough and replant is going to be around 36months - by then both Guinea and Ruzi will be growing from thick fibreous stalk structures - which reduce palatble regrowth significantly, and the fertiliser regime to sustain regrowth starts to outweigh the crop regrowth quite dramatically.

Lastly, don't skip the weed issue during land prep: A good idea is to cross cut, irrigate lightly daily, letting the land lie for as much as 3weeks to a month - during which time the weeds will no doubt appear. Now spray them. wait 24hrs and then start seeding by hand. It'll give the forage grass a good oppurtunity to establish a decent root structure while not having to compete with weed growth. Sure the weeds will return over time, but not till the forage has germinated and got a good 8" - 12" headstart.

Theres a whole bunch issues - but overall my expriance would lead me to reccomending Ruzi and/or Guinea. Thats not to say there are no alternatives (however, legumes, as other have pointed out are not worth the effort - the land size is not large enough and the management issues far outway the return you'll get versus a forage grass - at least over a 2rai land area).

For what its worth Pak Chong (in Korat province) has the countries' primary government cattle feed research station (loads of Asian ex-pat students from Japan, Korea, Taiwan,). Well worth visiting sometime - you can also purchase inoculated seed stock there.

All the best

[MrWiggle]

Thanks.

[MrWiggle]

I visited my new friends sheep properety the other day, he has around 200 head but only 70 on the property I visited.

They are a south african variety crossed with the local sheep, by local I mean apparently the British brought in a lot of sheep to Burma and now there is a local sheep breed about.

Anyway, they look good and it certainly smelt like a sheep farm.

I love the smell of sheep shit in the morning.

He has had no problems with dogs, but has had problems with internal parasites and some deaths over the years.