Kasikorn Has Fallen ...... Zomg, Racism,

[Electra]

If everyone on this forum takes upwards of 15 minutes a day at an ATM and deliberately wastes the reciept papers, the Thais will complain to the bank and the bank will be forced into action to remove these charges which exhibit some of the worst racism since Nazi Germany...

Take 15 mins in front of me and it may well be your last transaction of the day.

The ATM fee is quite modest and compares favourably with the otherwise rapacious fees extracted by the UK banks for overseas transactions.

It represents a piddling extra to the average tourist but I should imagine it might be an economic challenge to low grade visa runners unable to open a Thai bank a/c and transfer funds.

Anything that might discourage this dross represents progress and to that extent I applaud the Thai banks' initiative.

[CWMcMurray]

I have always been very critical of double pricing or what I believe to be practices based upon race, religion, nationality, ect...

But while I may believe banks everywhere in the world are starting to get a little crazy with the fees they are charging, I don't find anything racist about this policy.

They are charging a fee for using a card drawn from a foreign bank. The same rule applies to people of all religions, races, sexes and nationalities, so nothing racist about it.

It just seems like banks the world over have foud a way to make money off of people who are not their customers. I can't say for certain, but I believed this policy started in the west (US I think) and it seems the rest of the banks around the world seem to think it is a good idea.

-------------------------

The problem I have is that it seems that everyone is charging a fee

Bank in the US charges 5 bucks

Mastercard charges 1%

Thai Bank Charges 150 thb

So it is starting to get quite significant and all of these charges all started only in the last few years, so it seems like rather than covering their costs, banks are just profiteering.

Given the increase in volume of international transactions and improvements in technology cost per transaction should be less than 10 years ago, but they are now charging more per transaction.

But that is a completely different issue than the one raised by the OP

Edited May 16, 2009 by CWMcMurray

[Maigo6]

How is the charge a racist policy ?

For example, a Thai National who lives overseas, has an overseas bank account comes back to Thailand, goes to an ATM with his Foreign bank card, will the charge suddenly dissapear cos he's a Thai ?

No of course it won't, he'll have to pay the charge also.

Some of you guys here are so paranoid, I'm surprised you leave the safety of your anti Thaiboogiemanthey'reallouttogetus bunkers.

How is this anti Thai? grow up! You must be one of those farangs who thinks that he's Thai and must defend everything in Thailand. You even love the bankers, sorry but the rest of us think your bankers are being greedy.

I think you got it wrong, the anti I was in a repellant use of the word, not being against something, is that OK with you ? I was using it in the you're all scared of the Thai Boogie man and seal yourself off in concerete bunkers cos you so paraniod you think they're all out to get you, context !!

Why do I have to explain something that is so obvious?

Would the Thai that had an overseas bank account have to pay the ATM charge also ? YES!!!!!

So how is it freekin' racist ???????

Grow up ? LOL....haha............

[sanook2me]

Get a Thai bank account and atm card ! end of story....

[citizen33]

Racist may not be quite the right word but Thailand is getting increasing out of step with other countries. In the last year I have used my UK Nationwide Visa card in Canada, Turkey, Italy, France and Belgium and don't recall one ATM charge. As regards what an earlier poster said about the UK bank charges dwarfing the Thai charge, NW up until now haven't made an overseas charge at all. Some UK ATMs run by private operators in premium locations do charge about GBP £1.50 or £2.00 per transaction., but this does not apply to the vast majority of British ATMs owned by banks The Thai £3.00 is significantly higher in a country where salaries and most costs are lower. To the best of my knowledge the user of a Thai ATM card in the UK does not face a locally-levied ATM charge (just the charges of their own bank). The UK banks would be investigated by the OFT if their got together to fix a standard charge as a cartel. As it happens I have a Thai bank account and ATM card but it doesn't solve the problem of getting sterling into Thailand. That has to be done from the other end. Obviously there are options which many are no doubt investigating, but the good old NW Flexaccount has been hard to beat up until now.

Edited May 16, 2009 by citizen33

[tartempion]

Up to one of your ATMs comes somebody with a foreign ATM/credit/debit card. You don't know who this person is, but with 99.999% probability s/he is not one of your customers. S/he wants to withdraw money from her/his foreign account, at the T/T rate of exchange, i.e. with the narrowest spread available.

I'll willingly admit that there is minimal incremental cost for this withdrawal. However somebody, somehow has to pay for the total cost of the system. Why should you, i.e. XYZ Bank, let your customers pay the whole cost, thereby subsidizing other banks' customers? The person with the foreign card is after all using a service that you provide, at a very considerable aggregate cost.

Let me tell you that my European bank charges me a fee each month which includes usage of a debit card.

When I withdraw money outside the European region I am charged 2.8 euro plus 0.3 per thousand on amount withdrawn.

When I withdraw money from any ATM in Thailand NONE of these belong to the infrastructure of my European bank.

So the question I ask you is "where do the collected fees go?"

To my European bank who has done nothing but providing access to a foreigh ATM?

It would be reasonable that compensation would be made between international banks, very well possible with electronic technology.

[Priceless]

Up to one of your ATMs comes somebody with a foreign ATM/credit/debit card. You don't know who this person is, but with 99.999% probability s/he is not one of your customers. S/he wants to withdraw money from her/his foreign account, at the T/T rate of exchange, i.e. with the narrowest spread available.

I'll willingly admit that there is minimal incremental cost for this withdrawal. However somebody, somehow has to pay for the total cost of the system. Why should you, i.e. XYZ Bank, let your customers pay the whole cost, thereby subsidizing other banks' customers? The person with the foreign card is after all using a service that you provide, at a very considerable aggregate cost.

Let me tell you that my European bank charges me a fee each month which includes usage of a debit card.

When I withdraw money outside the European region I am charged 2.8 euro plus 0.3 per thousand on amount withdrawn.

When I withdraw money from any ATM in Thailand NONE of these belong to the infrastructure of my European bank.

So the question I ask you is "where do the collected fees go?"

To my European bank who has done nothing but providing access to a foreigh ATM?

It would be reasonable that compensation would be made between international banks, very well possible with electronic technology.

I'm not sure, but I would presume that they go to your European bank. I do however know that if I use my European debit card in a Thai ATM, my European bank will charge me €3.00 and keep all of that charge (after a deduction for the international network that they use).

Revenue sharing between Thai and European/US/South American/Australian/African/Asian banks would obviously be technically possible. It would however involve some major negotiations leading to contracts that would seemingly have to be bi-lateral (to avoid any cartel problems). This would probably mean hundreds of thousands of contracts having to be drawn up (every bank in the world would have to make a deal with all other individual banks in the world). As it is now, there are a few middle men like Visa and Mastercard, which leads to the number of necessary contracts being reduced to be equal to the number of banks + the number of miiddle men.

/ Priceless

[geriatrickid]

If everyone on this forum takes upwards of 15 minutes a day at an ATM and deliberately wastes the reciept papers, the Thais will complain to the bank and the bank will be forced into action to remove these charges which exhibit some of the worst racism since Nazi Germany...

The only thing that you will do is reinforce a dislike of farangs. Wasting paper and interfering with other other people is inconsiderate and selfish. If some nimrod did that in front of me, I'd tell him or her off. If you can't afford to live in Thailand then don't blame the rest of the world for it.

Why do people insist on comparing simple mundane annoyances with Nazis? I think if you had asked an inmate of Aushwitz if he or she would trade places, the answer would be a resounding yes. Incredibly disrespectful of those that lived through WWII. You have no clue as to what hardship is. Get a grip, ok.

No one is forcing anyone to use a bank. Go use a credit union or barter center from your home country and see how far it gets you in Thailand. Carry your money in a sock. Would you give your services away? No? So then why would you expect others to do so? The ATM and electronic systems cost money (Priceless' great post explains that.) If you don't like the facility charges, go start a community bank and put your own capital at risk and give the atm services away. See how long you last. Be generous with your own assets first.

[PastEgo]

you lot are being funny

cost of an employee is significantly more than an atm

even in thailand where the wages are less

they work 24/7

no breaks

no sick or holiday pay

no pension contributions

they do not get pregnant

i read on average 1 atm replaces 2.5 bank clerks

atms are put in to make money by saving money and levelling extra charges they cannot impose at the bank counter

there was an old series by michael moore and it looked at how banks operate amongs other things

one example was where they hold all debit cheques to your account then put the highest one first

so if you account goes into the red it does so multiple times

as per the other posters

maybe 150 baht is not much on its own

but now you are paying 3 times for making use of the ATM + a commission charge

its not racism just greed

they are bankers after all

[PattayaParent]

I guess that I'll be seriously flamed for this, but here goes anyway:

Imagine that you are XYZ (Thailand) Bank PCL. You have invested a whole bunch of millions in ATMs (IBM, NCR and so on don't give them away). You have then created a communications network (probably using leased lines) to connect them with your central computers/servers. You have then connected your computers to an international network (probably again via leased lines, courtesy of CAT). You then have to regularly have your ATMs restocked with cash, serviced, eventually replaced and so on.

Up to one of your ATMs comes somebody with a foreign ATM/credit/debit card. You don't know who this person is, but with 99.999% probability s/he is not one of your customers. S/he wants to withdraw money from her/his foreign account, at the T/T rate of exchange, i.e. with the narrowest spread available.

I'll willingly admit that there is minimal incremental cost for this withdrawal. However somebody, somehow has to pay for the total cost of the system. Why should you, i.e. XYZ Bank, let your customers pay the whole cost, thereby subsidizing other banks' customers? The person with the foreign card is after all using a service that you provide, at a very considerable aggregate cost.

I am not, and have never been, in the banking business. I have however worked in a similar infrastructural business, namely telecommunications. I have on numerous occasions had to explain to customers that, although the cost for producing one extra call may be close to zero, we still had to charge for it because it utilized a system that had cost billions to build, costed billions to operate and would eventually cost billions to replace. I have no idea if there is some kind of transactional cost to an ATM withdrawal, e.g. imposed by the Visa and/or Mastercard organisations. Even without such a transactional cost, there is however an total cost for using the system that must somehow be covered. Only a suicidal business would let its own customers cover 100% of that cost, while giving it for free to other banks' customers.

Whether 150 baht is the right price level for a transaction of this kind, I don't know. If it is too high, this is probably not keeping the bankers awake at night. Remember, the card user is not their customer, they are just providing a one-off service.

/ Priceless

In that case they should charge the 150 Baht for all cards that use their system including local cards that are not issued by the bank itself.

[Mali1964]

Racist may not be quite the right word but Thailand is getting increasing out of step with other countries. In the last year I have used my UK Nationwide Visa card in Canada, Turkey, Italy, France and Belgium and don't recall one ATM charge. As regards what an earlier poster said about the UK bank charges dwarfing the Thai charge, NW up until now haven't made an overseas charge at all. Some UK ATMs run by private operators in premium locations do charge about GBP £1.50 or £2.00 per transaction., but this does not apply to the vast majority of British ATMs owned by banks The Thai £3.00 is significantly higher in a country where salaries and most costs are lower. To the best of my knowledge the user of a Thai ATM card in the UK does not face a locally-levied ATM charge (just the charges of their own bank). The UK banks would be investigated by the OFT if their got together to fix a standard charge as a cartel. As it happens I have a Thai bank account and ATM card but it doesn't solve the problem of getting sterling into Thailand. That has to be done from the other end. Obviously there are options which many are no doubt investigating, but the good old NW Flexaccount has been hard to beat up until now.

Open a Halifax current account they do a online swift for £9.50, if you rely on a monthly pension from the UK see if you can do your transfers every 2 months at £9.50 around (3 ATM fees) to your Thai account this would save all this hassle & because it can be done online there's little stress involved.

[roamer]

Great post, Priceless. Intelligent and measured.

However may I add two points. Firstly, the whole reason all banks across the world introduced ATM's was to reduce costs. This is because the cost of maintaining a system of ATM's is cheaper than the costs of employing more staff.

Secondly, you have omitted the fact that almost all of the Thai banks have joined the Visa and Mastercard global networks. Surely they would have or should have negotiated a share of the profits that these companies make by their spreads.

Even if I withdraw the maximum I can (15,000 a day) I still have to pay 150 Baht to the Thai bank for the privilege of using their ATM. That's 1%. That's too high. I also pay just under 1% to Visa as a result of their spread and from 1 June I will pay 1% to Nationwide to cover their costs. So I will lose 3% of my money. Too much.

I have a plan in place to stop using my UK card(s) in Thai ATM's.

Great post, Priceless. Intelligent and measured.

However may I add two points. Firstly, the whole reason all banks across the world introduced ATM's was to reduce costs. This is because the cost of maintaining a system of ATM's is cheaper than the costs of employing more staff.

Secondly, you have omitted the fact that almost all of the Thai banks have joined the Visa and Mastercard global networks. Surely they would have or should have negotiated a share of the profits that these companies make by their spreads.

Even if I withdraw the maximum I can (15,000 a day) I still have to pay 150 Baht to the Thai bank for the privilege of using their ATM. That's 1%. That's too high. I also pay just under 1% to Visa as a result of their spread and from 1 June I will pay 1% to Nationwide to cover their costs. So I will lose 3% of my money. Too much.

I have a plan in place to stop using my UK card(s) in Thai ATM's.

You are right in that banks worldwide introduced ATMs to reduce their costs for providing service to their customers. However, providing that service to other banks' customers is an altogether different kettle of fish. For this I think they are entitled to enough revenue to cover their costs and provide a reasonable profit.

I have never been in the banking business, so I don't know about the contracts between banks and Visa and/or Mastercard. However, if Nationwide need 1% to cover their costs, it seems unlikely that the "just under 1%" that Visa charge would be enough to cover their costs and that of the Thai bank. Trying to identify the different cost elements, it appears to me that Nationwide's costs are probably the lowest of the three involved parties. This is just a guess, though.

The main thing remains though: Very, very few of the people using foreign cards in Thai ATMs will be customers of that, or any other, Thai bank. Consequently it makes perfect business sense for the Thai banks to charge for that service.

/ Priceless

PS I think you are very sensible in making plans for not using your UK card(s) in Thai ATMs. I set up a scheme like that before I even moved here.

Of course Nationwide don't levy the 1% charge on their cash card which is Cirrus as opposed to the debit card which is Visa, do they get the same exchange rate I wonder ?

[frankthetank]

If everyone on this forum takes upwards of 15 minutes a day at an ATM and deliberately wastes the reciept papers, the Thais will complain to the bank and the bank will be forced into action to remove these charges which exhibit some of the worst racism since Nazi Germany...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think there were any cash machines in Nazi Germany!

[CarlBkk]

I'm primarily thinking of the next cheapest way to withdraw cash in Thailand from the UK several times per month. Thousands of ex pats are probably thinking along the same lines.

If Nationwide visa debits aren't so cheap, is there now a better method? bank transfers of £300 a time pick up the rubbish UK conversion rate, charges both ends. FOREX better but still UK exchange rates. UK ATM the same.

Any Thai banks that aren't charging the 150 baht but accept the N'wide cards?

[Mali1964]

I'm primarily thinking of the next cheapest way to withdraw cash in Thailand from the UK several times per month. Thousands of ex pats are probably thinking along the same lines.

If Nationwide visa debits aren't so cheap, is there now a better method? bank transfers of £300 a time pick up the rubbish UK conversion rate, charges both ends. FOREX better but still UK exchange rates. UK ATM the same.

Any Thai banks that aren't charging the 150 baht but accept the N'wide cards?

If you can wait & keep your transfers to a minimum of £2000 a time by swift using the Halifax £9.50 online fee, you will save money compared to the same money via ATM the rate on Friday for TT was 52.13875 anyone have the ATM rate for Kasikorn on Friday to compare the possible loss's involved on the rates.

£2000 x 52.13875 104,277 baht + £9.50 fee & 300? baht (£6) Kasikorn transfer conversion fee total fee £15.50

£2000 x 52.2876(TV rate from Friday) 104,575 baht + 5 x 150 baht fee 750 £15 + minimum 1% fee inc NW visa £20 total fee £35.00

Remember lots of Brits use cards like the Halifax for ATM's with a fee of 3%+ or £60 feefor £2000, you still have a gamble with the rate as 5 x 20,000 baht ATM withdrawal's are all going to be different exchange rate's & could be worse or better than your bulk TT transfer especially with the pounds vast fluctuations in the last 12 months.

You could however keep shopping round for the free ATM's or there's the over the counter method which seems to have died a death as an idea on this forum.

[Heng]

The responses I've been getting are along the lines of: that telling folks that they can get free or low cost transfers if only they used X asset management level bank and that they only need between X hundred thousand Baht and X million Baht as a minimum balance isn't going to help and most certainly not shut the mouths/keyboard whinges of 10's of thousands of 'expats' who need to withdraw 12,000 Baht this week from an account that maintains an average balance of 45,000 Baht for most of the year.

[loong]

I'm primarily thinking of the next cheapest way to withdraw cash in Thailand from the UK several times per month. Thousands of ex pats are probably thinking along the same lines.

If Nationwide visa debits aren't so cheap, is there now a better method? bank transfers of £300 a time pick up the rubbish UK conversion rate, charges both ends. FOREX better but still UK exchange rates. UK ATM the same.

Any Thai banks that aren't charging the 150 baht but accept the N'wide cards?

When you do a Swift transfer you can stipulate that the transfer is in GBP, so you will get the Thai, not the UK conversion rate.

Anyway certainly not worth a Swift transfer if only 300 pounds at a time.

Edited May 17, 2009 by loong

[GungaDin]

If everyone on this forum takes upwards of 15 minutes a day at an ATM and deliberately wastes the reciept papers, the Thais will complain to the bank and the bank will be forced into action to remove these charges which exhibit some of the worst racism since Nazi Germany...

Have you stopped taking your medication?

[LAZYTERRY]

How is the charge a racist policy ?

For example, a Thai National who lives overseas, has an overseas bank account comes back to Thailand, goes to an ATM with his Foreign bank card, will the charge suddenly dissapear cos he's a Thai ?

No of course it won't, he'll have to pay the charge also.

Some of you guys here are so paranoid, I'm surprised you leave the safety of your anti Thaiboogiemanthey'reallouttogetus bunkers.

How is this anti Thai? grow up! You must be one of those farangs who thinks that he's Thai and must defend everything in Thailand. You even love the bankers, sorry but the rest of us think your bankers are being greedy.

I think you got it wrong, the anti I was in a repellant use of the word, not being against something, is that OK with you ? I was using it in the you're all scared of the Thai Boogie man and seal yourself off in concerete bunkers cos you so paraniod you think they're all out to get you, context !!

Why do I have to explain something that is so obvious?

Would the Thai that had an overseas bank account have to pay the ATM charge also ? YES!!!!!

So how is it freekin' racist ???????

Grow up ? LOL....haha............

I said it's greedy. Now, go put on your sarong, drink some lao kao and have a think about what you're saying. And I'm sure the locals think about you as one of their own

[meadish_sweetball]

...

Whether 150 baht is the right price level for a transaction of this kind, I don't know. If it is too high, this is probably not keeping the bankers awake at night. Remember, the card user is not their customer, they are just providing a one-off service.

In that case they should charge the 150 Baht for all cards that use their system including local cards that are not issued by the bank itself.

They charge 20 baht for withdrawals using Thai ATM cards from local banks other than their own and have done so for years.

[Briggsy]

...

Whether 150 baht is the right price level for a transaction of this kind, I don't know. If it is too high, this is probably not keeping the bankers awake at night. Remember, the card user is not their customer, they are just providing a one-off service.

In that case they should charge the 150 Baht for all cards that use their system including local cards that are not issued by the bank itself.

They charge 20 baht for withdrawals using Thai ATM cards from local banks other than their own and have done so for years.

This is for out of region withdrawals including their own cards. e.g. hold an SCB account in Chiang Mai and use your SCB card at an SCB ATM in Phattalung and you'll be charged 20 Baht.

The charge for using another bank's card in an ATM is 5 Baht. (Quite a difference from 150 Baht, wouldn't you say?). In addition this only applies to withdrawals above 4 per month. e.g. Hold an SCB account in Chiang Mai and use your SCB card at the Bangkok Bank ATM next to your apartment 5 times within one month and you'll be charged 5 Baht.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion this smacks of double pricing which crops up fairly regularly in Thailand. Having said that, the OP seems somewhat unhinged.

[angiud]

Why people coming (most) from England always talk about money, expensive, cheap, rip-off, steal, etc ?

[Briggsy]

Why people coming (most) from England always talk about money, expensive, cheap, rip-off, steal, etc ?

'Cos that's all Thais ever talk about. Stay here long enough and you'll become like them too. I have.

[thaihome]

In that case they should charge the 150 Baht for all cards that use their system including local cards that are not issued by the bank itself.

I believe the ATM system is Thailand is cooperative efforts with a central clearing house of all the banks and they share the cost, so it doesn't matter if the card is from another bank.

TH

[thaihome]

They charge 20 baht for withdrawals using Thai ATM cards from local banks other than their own and have done so for years.

I think the 20 baht fee is using an ATM machine outside the province where your account is located, regardless of the bank. Using an ATM at another banks machine within the same province does not get a charge...

TH

[koheesti]

According to the thread linked, Ayudhya is not using said DCC for Visa cards. I got the 35 baht/usd rate.

Unfortunately perhaps only for me, my Visa card already takes a 3% foreign currency transaction fee back home and my Mastercard (Capital One) doesn't but Ayudhya hits me for that here.

[LAZYTERRY]

Why people coming (most) from England always talk about money, expensive, cheap, rip-off, steal, etc ?

'Cos that's all Thais ever talk about. Stay here long enough and you'll become like them too. I have.

Yes, 95 percent of the time Thai people are talking about money. The rest of the time food.

[greenwood01]

Saddens me how so many farangs can give 5million house to their bargirl but yet they cant setup a 200baht wire transfers of their funds to a thai bank to avoid daily atm charges..

i mean CMON.

[angiud]

Saddens me how so many farangs can give 5million house to their bargirl but yet they cant setup a 200baht wire transfers of their funds to a thai bank to avoid daily atm charges..

i mean CMON.

Farang keeneao?

[cat5]

If everyone on this forum takes upwards of 15 minutes a day at an ATM and deliberately wastes the reciept papers, the Thais will complain to the bank and the bank will be forced into action to remove these charges which exhibit some of the worst racism since Nazi Germany...

You really are deluded if you think that will happen. Personally, this charge doesn't bother me at all. The only money I transfer is money I have earned in Thailand and transfer abroad.