Impeachment Threat Over Buses

[Journalist]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/06/01...cs_30104036.php

Senator Naruemon Siriwat yesterday threatened to launch impeachment proceedings if the government approved the Bt69 billion bus leasing project.

"The prime minister and his Cabinet members will be targeted for impeachment if they insist on implementing the suspicious project," she said.

Naruemon said she suspected irregularities because the estimated maintenance costs appeared too high and the leasing contract would involve the government's liability for too long a period of time.

She said the government had no justification for approving the project, seen as a hasty attempt to replenish campaign funds ahead of the next general election.

Senate Speaker Prasopsuk Boondet said the government should delay the project pending a review of whether the leasing and maintenance costs would justify the deal.

"The government is risking a public backlash which can lead to its downfall if it ignores the fact that the project has been plagued with irregularities," he said.

Prasopsuk said at issue was not the row between two coalition parties - Democrat and Bhum Jai Thai- but the very survival of the government.

The two coalition parties had a joint responsibility to ensure a clean and honest administration, he said.

The authorities failed to adequately explain why the buses should be leased at such a high cost. He also questioned the price tag jacked up by interest payments.

Prasopsuk said he was optimistic the vetting of the bus leasing by the two coalition partners would not turn into a political expediency in which either side reached a mutual agreement regardless of the merits of the project.

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban said the Democrat-led coalition had zero tolerance for corruption.

"Members of the public and media professionals are invited to scrutinise all public spending plans," he said.

Suthep urged parties concerned to step forward to expose any irregularities and pledged the prime minister would take immediate action to bring culprits to justice.

He said, however, he had no evidence to suspect foul play linked to the bus leasing project and that it was unjustified to assume the project was a contentious issue between the two coalition parties.

He said it would be up to the Cabinet to make a collective decision whether to give the green light to the project, which had been reviewed and revised according to recommendations from all sides.

In a latest revision, about 70 per cent of 4,000 buses would be assembled locally instead of being imported, he said.

In regard to concern that the rejection of the project might lead to the collapse of the coalition, he said he would do his best to keep the alliance intact.

Bhum Jai Thai Party leader Chovarat Chanweerakul said he was not informed whether the Cabinet debate on the project would take place tomorrow as scheduled.

He said he had read news reports on speculation about a delay in the debate and said the government might need more time to scrutinise details before rescheduling it.

He ruled out the allegation his party was trying to block the land lease project pushed by the Democrats in order to negotiate support for the bus leasing.

He said he was ready to give his blessing to the land lease if Deputy Interior Minister Thaworn Senneam could clarify certain contentious issues and ensure the leased plots for landless farmers would not end up in the hands of the developers.

Democrat Party spokesman Buranaj Smutharaks said the authorities were planning a publicity campaign to explain away issues related to crop and bus projects.

In regard to the bus leasing, authorities will raise awareness on problems plaguing the bus service for Bangkok commuters and how to rectify the situation.

The Bangkok Mass Transit Authority is obligated to justify its plans to overhaul the service and tackle the financial predicament, he said.

The planned overhaul of bus services would in turn form a basis for Cabinet to debate bus leasing, he added.

Democrat MP Sathit Pitudecha said authorities should dispel lingering doubts about the attempt to fix a deal for the bus leasing.

The project's credibility had been compromised because of speculation about favouring certain suppliers in exchange for kickback payments, he said.

-- The Nation 2009/06/01

Edited June 1, 2009 by sbk

[xbusman]

Having been in the bus business and familiar with public transit over thirty years, I have to say that this program just stinks. Absolutely nothing makes any sense in the whole program at costs that are astronomical given the operating parameters. Someone, somewhere is getting filthy rich on the public dole.

Thailand should have a bus manufacturer. The auto industry is here so the large majority of parts and equipment can be bought locally. Mercedes is famous for setting up free manufacturing if you use their captive parts such as windshields and engines. In this case, they are not even buying the equipment, they are leasing it at a usury rate.

This bus arrangement is a real scam but then again, in Thailand its the way things work.

[Plus]

Can you put any numbers forward?

70% of the buses will be locally assembled according to Suthep.

The total cost has been trimmed in several steps, the project has been in the works for over a year already.

Now is not the time to go back to square one and consider inviting Mercedes Benz to invest in a bus building plant here.

Hard to disagree with Suthep - if you know something, tell the public, don't just wallow in platitudes about corruption and demand endless "reviews".

[hammered]

"Delay the projects until I am in power". Not uncommon in Thailand. Many priojects have now been through several governments. Anyone who gets a few biggies through will have a nice advantage come election time in terms of persuading MPs to join their little party.

[xbusman]

Can you put any numbers forward?

70% of the buses will be locally assembled according to Suthep.

The total cost has been trimmed in several steps, the project has been in the works for over a year already.

Now is not the time to go back to square one and consider inviting Mercedes Benz to invest in a bus building plant here.

Hard to disagree with Suthep - if you know something, tell the public, don't just wallow in platitudes about corruption and demand endless "reviews".

The beauty of public transit is that numbers from all over the western world are very transparent. Complete turn key package accounting is available for free from a variety of public transit operations all over the world covering all styles of equipment, all options, all environments. Unlike building an airport which is extremely rare and local specific, public transit is a pretty well documented endeavor. In particular, bus transportation is highly dissected and life cycle costs are detailed to an amazing degree. The costs for both procurement and operation of the current proposal is completely out of any rational range. I could completely bury you with numbers, exactly how much are you willing to pay for the service and exactly what would that prove? If proven, exactly how receptive do you think the administrators, subcontractors, and operators would be? Whats the point. Its simply a professional opinion on the latest scam.

In the end, we are guests here and the people involved with these grand projects are not very interested in the opinion of their constituents, much less us "visitors". It is a shame because public transit is so desperately needed and resources so thin. One would hope that Thailand would invest, and invest wisely in education, health, and transportation at this stage of their development instead of aircraft carriers, jet fighters, and elite cards. If wishes were horses, even beggars would ride.

I do know about bus service, this proposal on the surface is obscene but it will be nice to see new coaches in Thailand.

[Journalist]

^Without burying us in stats, by how much in money terms would you estimate this contract looks over-priced?

...that x number being the implied 'take' and leakage.

[hansnl]

Can you put any numbers forward?

70% of the buses will be locally assembled according to Suthep.

The total cost has been trimmed in several steps, the project has been in the works for over a year already.

Now is not the time to go back to square one and consider inviting Mercedes Benz to invest in a bus building plant here.

Hard to disagree with Suthep - if you know something, tell the public, don't just wallow in platitudes about corruption and demand endless "reviews".

Why invite Mercedes Benz if you want to build buses.

Really, Mercedes is not the only manufacturer of chassis/engine configurations.

There are more and maybe even better builders in Europe, US, Australia or Asia

If you want to build buses you ask for knowledge of a bus builder, to supply knowhow, tools etc.

Mercedes, or Scania, or DAF, or Volvo, Isuzu, Nissan or whomever could supply the basic chassis/engine.

Or agree to assemble locally.

Very many coachbuilders in Thailand that could do the job of building a bus on the chassis/engine.

[baht&sold]

Over the 10 year life-span, just the maintenance contract alone for EACH of the proposed 4000 buses works out to just over 8.2 million baht PER bus... Not a wonder PM Abhisit is trying to reign in the bus-happy 'former' friends of Thaksin Bhumjai faction (for the second time, previous cost was much higher).

Ultimately it appears Mr Newin's Bhumjai faction (which controls the main 'money' ministries) are set on a collision course with the Democrat led Govt.

It's quite simple really. The Dems are demanding transparency in everything from rice sales to bus 'schemes' but Mr Newin's Bhumjai Ministers appear to have 'other' interests...(like filling the honey-pot and poaching Dems & Puea Thai members before elections, certain by Jan). Exacerbating the current tug-of-war within the Govt is Bhumjai's increasing influence with some key Dems such as Deputy PM Suthep and Defense Minister Prawit (both alleged to be favouring Newin).

For example, Dems recent cut-back on the defense budget was met by Mr Prawit's insistence to go ahead with the Grippen fighter deal regardless- but only on paper he said - (with end results similar to Mr Samak's red-hot deal for fire-trucks?) Another example is Bhumjai Commerce Minister Porntiva 'winning' the latest round in the rice bid row by retaining control (despite PM Abhisits efforts to 'contain' her). In a worrying indication of how this may ultimately resolve, Deputy PM Suthep is now placed as 'overseer' in a bid to watch the bids... (Mr Newin may be well pleased at this 'friendly' compromise).

Mixed into all this is the push by the Dems to put forward state land for poor farmers useage at 10 baht per rai per year. Unfortunately, this otherwise noble effort appears to have become a 'bargaining chip' for Bhumjai to get it's way with murky bids, bus 'schemes', fast-tracked Suvarnabhumi expansion, etc, etc, etc...

The message from Newin's Bhumjai faction to the Dems seems to be, 'play ball' and keep your noses out of 'our' business and we'll let you help poor landless farmers... If so, that's just how typical cynical politics plays in Thailand (and the people be damned, again and again and...)

Back on the bus - in an 'ideal' world, scrap the deal, scrap the BMTA (a money-sucking back-handing black-hole with abysmal service records) and start from scratch.

Edited June 1, 2009 by baht&sold

[bkkjames]

I wonder if they will park the buses next to the fire trucks?

[catmac]

Have to agree with Baht&sold, the partnership of Newin and Suthep will prove to be a disaster for the people of Thailand - look what the pair of them cooked up in Pattaya with Newin's silly blue-shirts, etc.

No surprise, either, is the fact that Abhisit is left floundering on the sidelines, waffling away while his masters line their pockets. Every scam pulled by the "friends of Newin" makes it abundantly clear that Little Mark is just the puppet facade.

Who knows, in a few years the "usual suspects" may even begin to see the Thaksin years as relatively corruption-free!

[Scott]

Of course the cost of maintenance is high--higher than Western countries. Anyone who has ever ridden on a bus in Bangkok knows that maintenance is of the highest priority in Thailand!

[baht&sold]

I wonder if they will park the buses next to the fire trucks?

If Newin's Bhumjai faction has their way, perhaps the buses can then be parked alongside the fire trucks and Grippen jets, all at no longer needed Don Muang in a single-solution enroute to their fast-tracked Suvarnabhumi muti-billion baht back-handing expansion spree... (just imagine if they controlled ALL ministries... would be just like previous Thaksin & clone govt's;)

[hammered]

Have to agree with Baht&sold, the partnership of Newin and Suthep will prove to be a disaster for the people of Thailand - look what the pair of them cooked up in Pattaya with Newin's silly blue-shirts, etc.

No surprise, either, is the fact that Abhisit is left floundering on the sidelines, waffling away while his masters line their pockets. Every scam pulled by the "friends of Newin" makes it abundantly clear that Little Mark is just the puppet facade.

Who knows, in a few years the "usual suspects" may even begin to see the Thaksin years as relatively corruption-free!

More likely just seen as no great change. Before Thaksin there was corruption. Then with him there was corruption although organised in a different fashion and then after him there was corruption. Isnt that what the yellow shirts want everyone to see? Endless mindless corruption by politicans of all stripes leading to a new politcs reform as the political institutions all become more and more discredited and hence weaker. There arent only two teams in this game.

[Pierrot]

"Delay the projects until I am in power". Not uncommon in Thailand. Many priojects have now been through several governments. Anyone who gets a few biggies through will have a nice advantage come election time in terms of persuading MPs to join their little party.

That's what Thaksin opposition is all about. No strong leader, a new government every nine month or so, everybody gets his chance to have his share of the loot.

Of course no project is ever achieved but as the current government has made clear, democracy is not what this country needs, so who cares what the people think ?

[hammered]

"Delay the projects until I am in power". Not uncommon in Thailand. Many priojects have now been through several governments. Anyone who gets a few biggies through will have a nice advantage come election time in terms of persuading MPs to join their little party.

That's what Thaksin opposition is all about. No strong leader, a new government every nine month or so, everybody gets his chance to have his share of the loot.

Of course no project is ever achieved but as the current government has made clear, democracy is not what this country needs, so who cares what the people think ?

The way politicans are being discredited and with colour groups peddling hate against parties the very conditions for a brand of "New Politics" get created.

Dems, blue party, PTP, CTP they all start to look tired and discredited and weak to people in certain regions. We can have a merry go round of governments for a while but without a change the PAD message of evil politicans get magnified again and again. The red and yellow claims of manipulation by various sides get magnified. In the medium term things will likely reach some kind of crisis unless deals satisfactory to all are reached first and that right now seems unlikely. In reality both red and yallow want a brand of "new politcs" it is just they dont exactly agree on what. However, that general idea becomes more resonant as the corruption scandals and failures to do anything build up. There is an inherent contradiction being built in right now imho

[hansnl]

Have to agree with Baht&sold, the partnership of Newin and Suthep will prove to be a disaster for the people of Thailand - look what the pair of them cooked up in Pattaya with Newin's silly blue-shirts, etc.

No surprise, either, is the fact that Abhisit is left floundering on the sidelines, waffling away while his masters line their pockets. Every scam pulled by the "friends of Newin" makes it abundantly clear that Little Mark is just the puppet facade.

Who knows, in a few years the "usual suspects" may even begin to see the Thaksin years as relatively corruption-free!

That is a new one, we keep it in

[Plus]

Over the 10 year life-span, just the maintenance contract alone for EACH of the proposed 4000 buses works out to just over 8.2 million baht PER bus.

Is it maintanace only or with lease included?

Since our board experts refuse to provide any info, I'm off to digging Nation's archives.

[DaleBlue]

The pot called the kettle black. TIT

[Plus]

OK. some numbers.

In the beginning the project value was over a 111 billion baht, 6,000 bases with 5,100 baht per day rental fee. It was critisied and revised several times. Now the value is 69 bil baht for 4,000 buses. 4,780 baht per day.

Samak's govt sent the project to Nesdb to study, earlier this year BMTA held six public hearings with interested parties, and senators issued a six point critique of the plan that included local manufacturing demand that has been satisfied, at least in part.

I don't know if they can trim the project any further, maybe they should just get on with it.

I don't think that debate about cctv cameras, electronic ticketing or handycapped access is that important.

Why invite Mercedes Benz if you want to build buses.

That is taking it back to square minus one. Making suggestions to improve Bangkok bus system from a plastic chair at Khao sarn sidewalk cafe.

There are terms of reference for this contract already, any company can bid, and it's leasing.

It might be imperfect, but at some point you just have to sacrifice the quest for perfection in favour of practicality.

[filingaccount]

One 45-55 passenger seat bus is about US$ 80,000 (2,800,000 baht) retail.

That equals about 24,600 buses at retail prices. Of course any government is not paying retail prices, but probably at discounted rates of around 20-30%. That would mean a total of up to 35,000 buses. If you factor in Thai taxes then the total is nearer 11,500 buses.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out this or the rest. (30 seconds doing web searches is sufficient)

[Plus]

They are not buying the buses, they are leasing them.

BMTA union proposed lease-purchase but I think they were a bit late, buy about a year.

[Pierrot]

It might be imperfect, but at some point you just have to sacrifice the quest for perfection in favour of practicality.

Sometime you make sense

[DaleBlue]

One 45-55 passenger seat bus is about US$ 80,000 (2,800,000 baht) retail.

That equals about 24,600 buses at retail prices. Of course any government is not paying retail prices, but probably at discounted rates of around 20-30%. That would mean a total of up to 35,000 buses. If you factor in Thai taxes then the total is nearer 11,500 buses.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out this or the rest. (30 seconds doing web searches is sufficient)

Please show us a link on these cheap buses. Chinese made? 2.8 million is cheaper than my mini cooper.

[filingaccount]

One 45-55 passenger seat bus is about US$ 80,000 (2,800,000 baht) retail.

That equals about 24,600 buses at retail prices. Of course any government is not paying retail prices, but probably at discounted rates of around 20-30%. That would mean a total of up to 35,000 buses. If you factor in Thai taxes then the total is nearer 11,500 buses.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out this or the rest. (30 seconds doing web searches is sufficient)

Please show us a link on these cheap buses. Chinese made? 2.8 million is cheaper than my mini cooper.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/20049422..._YCK6126HC.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/21143269...ompany_bus.html

I was wrong... It could be cheaper than that with Chinese made buses.

A country like Thailand, particularly in recession, should not be thinking about Mercedes or whichever "high end" brand.

I'd be happy to import and sell buses to the government, but I tell you, doing business with Thai politicians inevitably ... never mind, I'll self censor.

In any case, setting an average value of 17,250,000 Baht per bus (US$ ~490,000), as they have done, is ridiculous.

This price would net you the very latest spiffy, non-polluting, fully kitted hybrid buses with cash to spare!

Edit: Oh, and don't confuse retail cars with wholesale purchases of buses. Worlds apart.

Edited June 1, 2009 by filingaccount

[Plus]

Oh, and don't confuse retail cars with wholesale purchases of buses.

Yet you yourself confuse buying MB buses with renting Chinese ones.

Senators who oppose this deal want to trim the cost on petty things like electronic ticketing and cctv cameras and rigging TOR to favour certain Chinese suppliers.

But what do they know! One alibaba search can give them some real ammunition. Thank god there's internet and all kinds of expert advice on it.

[brahmburgers]

The proposed deal stinks, mainly because of the obscene price quotes.

What sort of fuel do the buses use? If they're diesel, perhaps they can run on Jatropha oil (derived from plant seed - without need for processing).

However, there are potential pitfalls: maintenance strikes, driver strikes, customer strikes (over too-high fares). It could happen that some fixes to the buses are beyond the capability of local mechanics (as has happened with the airport baggage scan equipment), and needed foreign experts flown in to fix. ....would such maintenance costs be 100% borne by the lease deal?

The suggestion to develop bus manufacturing industry within Thailand is the comparatively best option. The gov't agency should buy the vehicles, not lease them.

[Plus]

The proposed deal stinks, mainly because of the obscene price quotes.

What sort of fuel do the buses use?

Renting bus for 4,800 a day doesn't sound like a bad deal.

They run on NGV, the price of installing extra filling stations is included in the total cost already, as are the daily operating costs.

The deal is so big that the need to steal only a couple of percentage points, I would guess.

[DaleBlue]

One 45-55 passenger seat bus is about US$ 80,000 (2,800,000 baht) retail.

That equals about 24,600 buses at retail prices. Of course any government is not paying retail prices, but probably at discounted rates of around 20-30%. That would mean a total of up to 35,000 buses. If you factor in Thai taxes then the total is nearer 11,500 buses.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out this or the rest. (30 seconds doing web searches is sufficient)

Please show us a link on these cheap buses. Chinese made? 2.8 million is cheaper than my mini cooper.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/20049422..._YCK6126HC.html

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/21143269...ompany_bus.html

I was wrong... It could be cheaper than that with Chinese made buses.

A country like Thailand, particularly in recession, should not be thinking about Mercedes or whichever "high end" brand.

I'd be happy to import and sell buses to the government, but I tell you, doing business with Thai politicians inevitably ... never mind, I'll self censor.

In any case, setting an average value of 17,250,000 Baht per bus (US$ ~490,000), as they have done, is ridiculous.

This price would net you the very latest spiffy, non-polluting, fully kitted hybrid buses with cash to spare!

Edit: Oh, and don't confuse retail cars with wholesale purchases of buses. Worlds apart.

The price is FOB China. Internet price showing 30K to 80K us.

If you pay 30K, I don't think it comes with an engine. You will be paying closer to 80K for a useable bus.

Also, have you forgotten the import tax. Correct me if I am wrong, that is a few hundred percents.

[hammered]

Politcally this a big test for the Dems. Go along with the deal and become labelled as corrupt same as the rest. Refuse to back it and be seen as (relatively) clean but face a fall from power. PAD must be loving it.

[Samuian]

Politcally this a big test for the Dems. Go along with the deal and become labelled as corrupt same as the rest. Refuse to back it and be seen as (relatively) clean but face a fall from power. PAD must be loving it.

As some prices have been disclosed here it got to be indeed a huge skim-scam,

the "get rich quickly" concept.

Has any of the people involved in theses scams like Ms.20% ever taken the time to

publicly trying to deny these allegations. no?

then guess what?

That what all this infighting, power wrestling is all about - it's about money, big money

Not about Thailand or Thai people!

Yes, this will be the big test.... we'll sit back and watch...