Illegal For Thai Wives Of Foreigners To Own Land

[elektrified]

I found myself in an unlikely situation this morning that gave me first-hand information that I will share.

Last night my g/f asked me if I would accompany her in the morning to the Chiang Mai Land Office because she had some family business to transact. I said sure. When we arrived, she introduced me to a woman that she has known for many years who was there waiting for her, documents in hand. She explained to me that she was purchasing some land from this woman on behalf of her uncle who lives in Hat Yai. He had sent her the money and that when he came to visit the family in Chiang Mai next time, that she would transfer the title to him. Apparently, in order to purchase land in Thailand, a party must personally show up at the Land Office in that Amphur; unlike in the USA for example where title documents are executed and notarized and then forwarded to the county by a title company.

After about 60 minutes of waiting, their number was called and they went to see the clerk. I sat on the bench waiting. After some discussion I happened to look up and noticed the clerk pointing his finger at me and the two ladies looking over at me and apparently having a minor argument with the clerk. At this time, my g/f came over to me and said that the clerk would not transfer the title to her because he thought that I had given her the money and that he wanted a photo-copy of my passport! I refused and said that I would have no part of this and for her to get all the information that she could.

After much discussion, my g/f came back again and told me that the clerk had told her that the law had recently changed, and in no uncertain terms, that a Thai woman can no longer purchase property with money that she received from a farang husband, boyfriend or business partner. It must be her own money and she must prove it is her own money. He said that she could lose her land if the government found out she purchased the property with money she got from a farang.

She told me that the clerk had noticed that she was pregnant and asked her if I was the father. She said yes but that I had just come along with her and that I had nothing to do with the purchase. He then asked her where she got the money from! and when she told him that it really was none of his business that he became uncooperative. The seller was becoming anxious and so my g/f caved in and told the clerk that her uncle had sent her the money for the purchase. I then saw the two women disappear into another office to speak with a superior. My g/f later told me that she had to get her uncle on the telephone to verify the story and that he had to fax a letter and copy of the bank transaction to Chiang Mai Land Office before the transaction could be completed. After about 2 1/2 hours of waiting around, she emerged with the Chanote.

So apparently it is true what has been reported. The situation I witnessed today seemed a bit like communism I would say. I personally have never considered handing over my hard-earned money to a Thai woman to purchase property in her name. I think the men that have been doing this for years to circumvent the law are foolish and could lose everything. (Many already have!) Perhaps its time for them to sell while they can and recover what they can. Renting it seems, is the only safe way here.

[Mobi]

Fascinating story, elektrified.

It just goes to reinforce my request to keep this thread open, and also the point I made about local land officers interpreting and enforcing the law however they see fit - especially after the anti-farang statements by their lord and master.

[loong]

..................clerk had told her that the law had recently changed, and in no uncertain terms, that a Thai woman can no longer purchase property with money that she received from a farang husband, boyfriend or business partner. It must be her own money and she must prove it is her own money. He said that she could lose her land if the government found out she purchased the property with money she got from a farang.

Interesting post. There must be a reason for the clerk to believe that the law had recently changed and in a way it was quite good of him to ask for the proof.

With this using one's wife as a nominee .....

I would have thought that a wife buying land with her husband's money and with a prearranged lease or usufruct to her foreign husband could very easily be interpreted as the husband using the wife as a nominee. After all, that's effectively what she is.

Edited June 4, 2009 by loong

[Burgernev]

Fascinating story, elektrified.

It just goes to reinforce my request to keep this thread open, and also the point I made about local land officers interpreting and enforcing the law however they see fit - especially after the anti-farang statements by their lord and master.

Conversely to 'elektrified's' story, I am a Farang developer with Thai wife in Hua Hin. Latest land already registered in wife's name pre that politicians comments. Since his comments I've been twitching a bit as we have not as yet 'cut' the land into it's individual plots.

Wife went in local Land Office yesterday with 'plot cut' paperwork, I didn't go (place scares me more than a dentist's waiting room), the more senior officials who deal with my wife (modest tea money reasons) know me and her very well over last 5 years, she has Western surname, they're on first name terms with wife, they ask how the houses are going etc - bottom line they know full well the score with our set-up.

She gets home, I ask any problems, she says no, they'll be doing it as normal and gave her a date for when the team will be on site to measure out and sink the posts in the ground.

Weird, no ?

Burgernev

[Burgernev]

Regards this politicians recent comments:

1.) I'd be a bit concerned if I was married but did not sign form due to different surname. Our local Land Office were not getting married couples with different surnames to sign them, foreigner was under the impression he was better not signing, everyone went away happy. That was the norm, that was also the Land Office officials not following the correct procedure, IMO. Is it too extreme to say the Thai spouse registered this land illegally as it was in contravention of the land code which specifically requires Land Office form signing by Farang??

2.) I'd not give it a second thought if you did sign the declaration that funds were her personal property (unless an actual law change comes out soon).

a.) Politician: "but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law."

b.) Ministry of Interior Most urgent letter No.Mor.Thor. 0710/Vor.792 dated March 23, 1999 - Acquisition of Land by Spouses of Aliens

'The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage (with proper registration of marriage) or unlawful marriage (without proper registration of marriage) and children of aliens have been changed to be as follows: Any Thai having an alien spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai. Without written confirmation from an alien spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

Confused? You will be.

Burgernev

Edited June 4, 2009 by Burgernev

[Mobi]

Weird? no

Confused? No.

TIT

This simply illustrates my point yet again:..... "local land officers interpreting and enforcing the law however they see fit - especially after the anti-farang statements by their lord and master".

Edited June 4, 2009 by Mobi

[thaihome]

I found myself in an unlikely situation this morning that gave me first-hand information that I will share.

Last night my g/f asked me if I would accompany her in the morning to the Chiang Mai Land Office because she had some family business to transact. I said sure. When we arrived, she introduced me to a woman that she has known for many years who was there waiting for her, documents in hand. She explained to me that she was purchasing some land from this woman on behalf of her uncle who lives in Hat Yai. He had sent her the money and that when he came to visit the family in Chiang Mai next time, that she would transfer the title to him. Apparently, in order to purchase land in Thailand, a party must personally show up at the Land Office in that Amphur; unlike in the USA for example where title documents are executed and notarized and then forwarded to the county by a title company.

After about 60 minutes of waiting, their number was called and they went to see the clerk. I sat on the bench waiting. After some discussion I happened to look up and noticed the clerk pointing his finger at me and the two ladies looking over at me and apparently having a minor argument with the clerk. At this time, my g/f came over to me and said that the clerk would not transfer the title to her because he thought that I had given her the money and that he wanted a photo-copy of my passport! I refused and said that I would have no part of this and for her to get all the information that she could.

After much discussion, my g/f came back again and told me that the clerk had told her that the law had recently changed, and in no uncertain terms, that a Thai woman can no longer purchase property with money that she received from a farang husband, boyfriend or business partner. It must be her own money and she must prove it is her own money. He said that she could lose her land if the government found out she purchased the property with money she got from a farang.

She told me that the clerk had noticed that she was pregnant and asked her if I was the father. She said yes but that I had just come along with her and that I had nothing to do with the purchase. He then asked her where she got the money from! and when she told him that it really was none of his business that he became uncooperative. The seller was becoming anxious and so my g/f caved in and told the clerk that her uncle had sent her the money for the purchase. I then saw the two women disappear into another office to speak with a superior. My g/f later told me that she had to get her uncle on the telephone to verify the story and that he had to fax a letter and copy of the bank transaction to Chiang Mai Land Office before the transaction could be completed. After about 2 1/2 hours of waiting around, she emerged with the Chanote.

So apparently it is true what has been reported. The situation I witnessed today seemed a bit like communism I would say. I personally have never considered handing over my hard-earned money to a Thai woman to purchase property in her name. I think the men that have been doing this for years to circumvent the law are foolish and could lose everything. (Many already have!) Perhaps its time for them to sell while they can and recover what they can. Renting it seems, is the only safe way here.

Personally, I don't believe your storey and I think you posted it simply to further fan the flames of this non-issue. Besides sounding extremely contrived, it contains the comment "seemed a bit like communism". That alone shows an amazing amount of ignorance.

TH

[Arkady]

Anyone know about putting land etc into trust for your kids to stop the philandering wife giving it away to a dope head boyfriend.

Need help.

SOS!

There is no trust law in Thailand. Minors can own land but they cannot apply for planning permission or sell the land until they reach the age of 20.

[Arkady]

Can anyone explain "revoke"? The title goes back to the previous owner who was a Thai lady married to a foreigner.. and then what? Or does the state get the land.?

The procedure in the Land Code is as follows and criminal penalties also apply to buyers and nominees: "Section 94 All the land which as alien has acquired unlawfully or without permission shall be disposed of by such alien within the time limit prescribed by the Director-General which shall not be less than one hundred eighty days nor more than one year. If the land is not disposed of within the time prescribed the Director-General shall have the power to dispose of it. The provisions on the forced sale of land in CHAPTER 3 shall apply mutatis mutandis."

At a guess I would say that in most land offices will be happy with the signed declaration that the funds used to buy the land were the Thai spouse's, as they have been since the ministerial regulation was issued in 1999. That would leave only those who have not made the declaration at risk. On the other hand, there remains the possibility that the director-general believes that this liberalization has been abused and needs tightening up with a requirement for Thai spouses to proof source of funds. This would make no sense as it would open those who have disclosed their Thai-foreign relationship and fronted up to sign the declaration more vulnerable to investigation than those who didn't disclose or sign. The end result would probably less Thai farang registered marriages and less people signing the declaration. This would disadvantage the Thai spouses who have less chance of getting legally married. Unfortunately, new regulations are often passed on a whim without being thought through.

[T_Dog]

I found myself in an unlikely situation this morning that gave me first-hand information that I will share.

Last night my g/f asked me if I would accompany her in the morning to the Chiang Mai Land Office because she had some family business to transact. I said sure. When we arrived, she introduced me to a woman that she has known for many years who was there waiting for her, documents in hand. She explained to me that she was purchasing some land from this woman on behalf of her uncle who lives in Hat Yai. He had sent her the money and that when he came to visit the family in Chiang Mai next time, that she would transfer the title to him. Apparently, in order to purchase land in Thailand, a party must personally show up at the Land Office in that Amphur; unlike in the USA for example where title documents are executed and notarized and then forwarded to the county by a title company.

After about 60 minutes of waiting, their number was called and they went to see the clerk. I sat on the bench waiting. After some discussion I happened to look up and noticed the clerk pointing his finger at me and the two ladies looking over at me and apparently having a minor argument with the clerk. At this time, my g/f came over to me and said that the clerk would not transfer the title to her because he thought that I had given her the money and that he wanted a photo-copy of my passport! I refused and said that I would have no part of this and for her to get all the information that she could.

After much discussion, my g/f came back again and told me that the clerk had told her that the law had recently changed, and in no uncertain terms, that a Thai woman can no longer purchase property with money that she received from a farang husband, boyfriend or business partner. It must be her own money and she must prove it is her own money. He said that she could lose her land if the government found out she purchased the property with money she got from a farang.

She told me that the clerk had noticed that she was pregnant and asked her if I was the father. She said yes but that I had just come along with her and that I had nothing to do with the purchase. He then asked her where she got the money from! and when she told him that it really was none of his business that he became uncooperative. The seller was becoming anxious and so my g/f caved in and told the clerk that her uncle had sent her the money for the purchase. I then saw the two women disappear into another office to speak with a superior. My g/f later told me that she had to get her uncle on the telephone to verify the story and that he had to fax a letter and copy of the bank transaction to Chiang Mai Land Office before the transaction could be completed. After about 2 1/2 hours of waiting around, she emerged with the Chanote.

So apparently it is true what has been reported. The situation I witnessed today seemed a bit like communism I would say. I personally have never considered handing over my hard-earned money to a Thai woman to purchase property in her name. I think the men that have been doing this for years to circumvent the law are foolish and could lose everything. (Many already have!) Perhaps its time for them to sell while they can and recover what they can. Renting it seems, is the only safe way here.

elektrified, Thanks for a real data point in all of this. Until I read your post, I thought all this was a concern over nothing, but seeing that the Chiang Mai Land Office is checking on the origin of funds, then there is something here for foreigners interested in land to understand thoroughly. Chiang Mai is probably the most farang-friendly region of Thailand, so to see the Land Office being careful is a bit scary. I think I'll curtail my land search with my spouse. Thanks for the post.

[Geekfreaklover]

From what I understand this law is retro-active. In theory, If a Farang was feeling really pissed over losing land that they could demonstrate that they paid for, they could hire a lawyer and start proceedings to return the land to the government??

Or have I read it worng?

[elektrified]

Personally, I don't believe your storey and I think you posted it simply to further fan the flames of this non-issue. Besides sounding extremely contrived, it contains the comment "seemed a bit like communism". That alone shows an amazing amount of ignorance.

TH

I don't really care if you believe it or not. I have no reason to make up anything. I think you are the one who is ignorant.

[thaiwanderer]

the first mistake is for a farang to ever go to the land office - the validity of the land officials actions thereon is neither here nor there

[boonrawdcnx]

I thought this issue had closure due to the fact that if the wife signs the paper saying the money to buy the land is hers, then end of story. Did I miss something else?

I have read several posts in different forums over the last few days and almost all of you are missing the point. This issue has been turned into a Farang/ Thai wife issue - which it is not!! There is no mentioning in the land code of signing a paper conforming that the land is hers / his.

The director general clearly said - any foreigner found to have bought land in a nominee's name - even if they are legally married. So this has nothing to do with being married or not, or having signed some paper - the issue is about the funds for the purchaes coming from a foreigner !!

Apparently any Thai under the suspicion of having used a foreigners money to purchase the land is considered a nominee - can be investigated - and if she / he can not prove that the money for the purchase was hers / his Section 94 of the land code (below) applies.

Anybody (even when married) is considered a nominee if the funds for the land purchase came from a foreigner - the worrying thing is that there is also a criminal penalty for both parties!

( Seems they are getting jealous now that Thai / foreign couples have nice houses - apparently this law was introduced by the military right after the coup silently - as if they are preparing for a land grab later ??.) So if your neighbours don't like you and they think you have paid for the land your house stands on - they can have your Thai partner - married or not - investigated.

Several posters have suggested that land could be confiscated, if acquired through nominees, whether lawfully married Thai wives or others and Anuwat, himself, said title deeds would be revoked. The procedure under the Land Code is actually as follows:

Section 94. All the land which as alien has acquired unlawfully or without permission shall be disposed of by such alien within the time limit prescribed by the Director-General which shall not be less than one hundred eighty days nor more than one year. If the land is not disposed of within the time prescribed the Director-General shall have the power to dispose of it. The provisions on the forced sale of land in CHAPTER 3 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

However, criminal penalties also apply to the foreigner and the Thai considered a nominee.

Since I am in the planning phase for a house on land we have bought with my money 2 years ago - I think this really needs to be checked out by a layer - and if I should have the slightest doubt or smell a problem in the future - a certain builder in Chiang-Mai and Architect will be very dissapointed when we cancel our plans.

We are already very dissapointed after reading the news a few days ago!

[thaiwanderer]

However, criminal penalties also apply to the foreigner and the Thai considered a nominee.[/i] [/font][/left]

Since I am in the planning phase for a house on land we have bought with my money 2 years ago - I think this really needs to be checked out by a layer - and if I should have the slightest doubt or smell a problem in the future - a certain builder in Chiang-Mai and Architect will be very dissapointed when we cancel our plans.

We are already very dissapointed after reading the news a few days ago!

it is of course prudent to consider all information and measuring it against your appetite for risk but if this is your reaction to such minor scare stories and rumours notwithstanding the chasm between actual relevant law and reality, unfortunately you are likely to be 'disappointed' continually

Edited June 5, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[loong]

However, criminal penalties also apply to the foreigner and the Thai considered a nominee.[/i] [/font][/left]

Since I am in the planning phase for a house on land we have bought with my money 2 years ago - I think this really needs to be checked out by a lawyer - and if I should have the slightest doubt or smell a problem in the future - a certain builder in Chiang-Mai and Architect will be very dissapointed when we cancel our plans.

We are already very dissapointed after reading the news a few days ago!

it is of course prudent to consider all information and measuring it against your appetite for risk but if this is your reaction to such minor scare stories and rumours notwithstanding the chasm between actual relevant law and reality, unfortunately you are likely to be 'disappointed' continually

As his reaction is to discuss this with a lawyer, it seems very sensible to me.

[scotsman]

Thaivisa created a monster: THAIVISA!

Statements are made, published here and foreigners are ON FIRE!

NO REASON TO PANIC HERE.

Foreigners can't use nominees to buy land. We all knew it. No?

Yes, foreigners CAN'T OWN LAND (few exceptions) in Thailand.

I receive emails EVERY WEEK of foreigners saying: "I'm buying land with my wife.."

NO! She buys land. Not you...

This is the letter of confirmation that foreigners sign when their spouse buys land in Thailand:

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/images/letter%...onfirmation.jpg

Now, I don't think these statements were made in English and there might have been some "translations problems".

The only sentence making problems is this one:

If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds," he said.

Why? Because it's perfectly legal to make a loan agreement, to GIVE money to your spouse, and it's perfectly legal for a Thai to acquire land.

Perfectly legal for a spouse to make a lease, a usufruct, a loan agreement to a foreigner. Married or not.

You just have to make it clear: The married foreign husband (or spouse) doesn't own. The THAI PERSON OWNS.

If you for more information about PROPERTY LAW, try http://www.thailawonline.com (We will update this section in the next 2 weeks)

The LAND CODE is there, in the LAWS section.

The Civil Code is there. (Left menu, CIVIL CODE)

Usufruct is at 1417 of the Thai Commercial and Civil Code. (book 4)

Lease is under HIRE OF PROPERTY (537 Civil Code, book 3 title 4))

Superficies are at 1410.

Common property under marriage is called SIN SOMROS (1474 of Civil Code, Book 5, family)

Seb.

Well this is what one law firm is telling you about the land code and civil code as it stands,now is there any other law firm out there that will tell you anything different.

I don't think anything has changed.

There would be a lot of court cases if they tried to in force any of what this man has said and that would clog up the court system for years to come.

I do think that this is a storm in a tea cup.

regards

Scotsman

[Burgernev]

There is no mentioning in the land code of signing a paper conforming that the land is his / hers.

Department of Land website link: http://www.dol.go.th/

Go to 'English Language Information' about half-way down on left hand side, then open item no. 1 which is in English.

Apologies for above can't see to do URL's off this iPhone.

Burgernev

[Burgernev]

Thanks for quick fix Crossy.

Also very relevant is my post #35, read the Ministry of Interior's letter dated March 1999, couldn't be much clearer about being able to gift your spouse land. How much weight that letter carries I wouldn't have a clue.

Burgernev

[alant]

this thread scares me to death, not the law just how wound up the responses seem to be. i have no idea about the effect of this public reminder of the law (is that what it was or has the law changed?) but i have a hyperthetical question.. if i perhaps had some joint ownership of property with my partner which i assume is at risk.

will the government pay back the tax they took when the land was purchased?

Edited June 6, 2009 by alant

[monty]

I have gone through the English information of the website of the Department of Land (thanks Burgernev, I previously missed that link halfway down on the left )!

For those interested, this post describes how to reach the page with the English translations of pretty much every law affecting foreigners on land ownership.

I will not copy the entire texts, rather the parts of importance, directly affecting pretty much everything discussed in this thread!

3. Application for ownership in land by a Thai national who has an alien spouse or ex- spouse or by a Thai national who is a minor child of an alien

3.1 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien legitimate spouse applies for permission to purchase land or accept a transfer of land in a similar case during marriage or cohabitation as husband and wife with an alien, as the case may be, if after the inquiry the applicant and the alien spouse have given a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on the purchase of the land is wholly the separate property of that Thai national and not the community property or the jointly acquired property, the competent official will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.

This is in my opinion a little bit dubious, in that they specifically write that it should be the money of the Thai partner which will be spent on the property.

However, the standard form used by the Department of Land (DoL) does not mention funds, but only specifies that the property will remain the sole property of the Thai partner. But if you will read further down, they have a specific rule allowing the Thai partner to accept land as a gift!

In the case where a Thai national whose spouse is an alien intends to purchase land or condominium unit but fail to give a joint written confirmation to the competent official as the alien spouse is being abroad, in this instance, an alien spouse shall make the statement declaring in written at the Royal Thai Embassy, Royal Thai Consulate or Notary Public that the money which that Thai national will expend on the purchase of the land or condominium unit is wholly the separate property of that Thai national and not the community property or property which an alien spouse has co-ownership in it. The competent official shall declare that the alien is an actual spouse of the Thai national and then submit to the competent land official who will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.

Allows the foreign partner to sign the paper at a Thai consular post if he is not in Thailand, negating the need for him to be physically present in Thailand.

In the case where a Thai national whose spouse is an alien, after marriage, has already purchased or possessed the land and informed or submitted a false document declaring the married status of a Thai national as single or had not been married to an alien to the official prior to the date the letter of Ministry of Interior, most urgent no. MOI 0710/wor 792 dated 23 March 1999 was issued, or has already purchased or possessed the condominium unit after marriage and informed or submitted a false document declaring the married status of a Thai national as single or had not been married to an alien prior to the date the letter of the Department of Lands no. MOI 0710/wor 34167 dated 6 October 2000 was issued, such alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, and a Thai national shall together give a joint written confirmation, which later to be filed in the case-list (or dealing package), to the competent official that the money which that Thai national will expend on the purchase of the land or the condominium unit is wholly the separate property of that Thai national and not the community property or jointly acquired property. If an alien spouse is being abroad and not be able to come to give a joint written confirmation to the competent official, in this instance, the application shall be considered in accordance with the case that a spouse of a Thai national who intends to purchase land or a condominium unit is being aboard, then an applicant shall consign the statement, after completion, to the competent land official for filing in the case-list.

Now this is quite important, as many of our members have asked what to do if they did not sign this paper, or as the above states, if they have bought the land before the March 1999 issued ministerial order. It states clearly that the couple still can file this statement and that the competent land official will update the case file on that particular piece of property accordingly.

3.2 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, applies for permission to accept a gift of land during marriage or cohabitation as husband and wife. If the inquiry reveals that the acceptance of the gift is made with the intention that the land will become the separate property or personal property of the donee without resulting in the alien having co-ownership in the land, the competent official will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.

Another important one. This rule clearly states that the Thai partner can accept land (or assumingly the funds to acquire that land) as a gift, and that the competent land official will proceed with the registration if the land will become the separate personal property of the Thai partner. Which would only need to same statement to be signed...

[Mobi]

Thanks Monty, that's brilliant piece of research, and helps greatly in clarifying the laws on this matter.

The only thing that would now concerns me, is how many of the local land officers are fully cognisant of these rules, and whether they are or aren't, how many of them will be prepared to follow them, rather than put their own interpretation on matters?

I do believe that the advice that farangs should keep away from land offices, whenever possible, is good advice, and may help to keep the land officers from being too hostile or jumping to wrong conclusions. Let the Thais sort it between them.

[loong]

A very good post Monty.

How I read the quotes referring to 3.1 ... It IS against the law for a foreigner to supply funds for his wife to purchase land.

When the couple sign the declaration, they are actually making a false declaration, so have broken the law on 2 counts.

Maybe the Lawyers in situations such as this should have been advising 3.2, the declaration that it is a gift. But then it doesn't specifically stipulate that the gift would be allowable if made by the husband.

[monty]

A very good post Monty.

How I read the quotes referring to 3.1 ... It IS against the law for a foreigner to supply funds for his wife to purchase land.

When the couple sign the declaration, they are actually making a false declaration, so have broken the law on 2 counts.

The declaration does nowhere state that the wife is buying with her own funds! The declaration simply states that the land will be her personal property, and not part of the matrimonial communal property!

They are not giving a false declaration, however, according to this rule officials could still start the procedure to revoke the land title deed if the wife cannot prove she ever had legitimate personal funds to acquire the land.

Again, the link to a scan of the statement to be made by both partners. Read it thoroughly, there is no mentioning of where the funds should come from!

Indeed. the proper procedure would seem to be, according to 3.2: Apply for permission to receive land as a gift while being married to a foreigner, and the only requirement to be fulfilled would be again to sign that same paper which unequivocally states that the property will become and remain the personal property of the Thai national.

---EDIT---

The form DOES state that the money should be from the Thai National, so my above ramblings are void

Which would mean that you really would have to apply for permission to receive a gift!

[monty]

Thanks Monty, that's brilliant piece of research, and helps greatly in clarifying the laws on this matter.

The only thing that would now concerns me, is how many of the local land officers are fully cognisant of these rules, and whether they are or aren't, how many of them will be prepared to follow them, rather than put their own interpretation on matters?

I do believe that the advice that farangs should keep away from land offices, whenever possible, is good advice, and may help to keep the land officers from being too hostile or jumping to wrong conclusions. Let the Thais sort it between them.

Very good point. Indeed many local offices are not up to date with actual laws, or sometimes they simply refuse to follow them!

In my opinion this could only give problems when registering the land, i.e. the officials refusing to enact the transfer based on the Thai national not being able to prove where her funds come from.

What I would not worry about is same official wanting to revoke the rights to your wife's land. They cannot do that themselves. They would have to bring the case before a judge, and if your paperwork is in order as per the letter of the law, that official will find it extremely hard to find a judge who would rule against the laws he is supposed to uphold. Not because they particularly like foreigners, but because they don't like to take the risk having their ruling overturned in an appeal, and with it the tremendous loss of face as cases like this will be most likely very well publicized!

And also, we use the term "revoke" very lightly. In real life, again following same rules, this would mean being given between 180 days and 1 year to dispose of the land as you see fit!

[Burgernev]

The 'Declaration' form at the land office DOES specifically mention the word 'money'.

After some general details like names and dates it says, quote "we together confirm that the money which Mr./Mrs. ....................... shall expend on the purchase of land title deed no. ................ "

Then there's general details about the property and address, then at bottom of form mentions it, quote "is wholly Sin Suan Tua or the personal property of Mr./mrs. ............... Alone and not Sin Som Ros or the matrimonial property between husband and wife"

I can post jpeg up when on PC next if it helps, but cant do much on this iPhone right now.

Burgernev

[monty]

The 'Declaration' form at the land office DOES specifically mention the word 'money'.

After some general details like names and dates it says, quote "we together confirm that the money which Mr./Mrs. ....................... shall expend on the purchase of land title deed no. ................ "

Then there's general details about the property and address, then at bottom of form mentions it, quote "is wholly Sin Suan Tua or the personal property of Mr./mrs. ............... Alone and not Sin Som Ros or the matrimonial property between husband and wife"

I can post jpeg up when on PC next if it helps, but cant do much on this iPhone right now.

Burgernev

Bloody ell, missed that one!

So Loong could be quite right that they could bother you with making false statements

[Burgernev]

FYI been wracking my brain where I got it from. it was off Isaan Lawyers website, downloadable (if Seb allows that!?).

Anyway its still on there now so take a look. Can't say if that's a universal one or was only used in Isaan Land Office.

Cheers,

BTW, why aren't you/we hanging our hats more on that Ministry letter in 1999 which mentions gifts without any consideration ?

Edited June 6, 2009 by Burgernev

[loong]

It would not be the responsibility of the official at the Land Office to check whether the couple had actually made false declarations. The official is entitled to proceed with the transfer as long as the declaration (true of false) is signed.

This is a double edged sword.

Theoretically if it is proved that the foreign husband used his wife as a nominee, the title would be revoked and the HUSBAND would be given 180 days to dispose of the property - correct?? So the husband would receive the proceeds from the disposal, not the wife.

Very interesting point for people who have been ripped off by their spouses.

The other side of the coin though is that the husband and wife have both committed a criminal offense, so can be imprisoned. Maybe 2 offenses when you consider the false declaration

Luckily the police force is not corrupt as I would dread to think what they may be able to do with this little gem of information.

Edited June 6, 2009 by loong

[Emeritus]

From the Letter of Confirmation: "We [foreign husband and Thai wife] together confirm that the money which [Thai wife] shall expend on the purchase of land...is wholly Sin Tua or the personal property of [Thai wife] alone, not Sin Som Ros or the matrimonial property between husband and wife."

This leads to the question: how does money, or property in general, become Sin Tuan, ie the personal property of one of the spouses?

1. Property owned before marriage.

2. Property received as inheritance.

3. Property received as a gift???

Does money that a Thai wife receives as a gift, regardless from whom, become Sin Tuan?