Thailand is biting off the hand that feeds it

[Indo-Siam]

Taxexile -

Is business a bit slow?  Not a bit.  I presume that you realize that my firm's core business is helping foreigners incorporate businesses here, obtain work permits, and long-term entry permit extensions.  I kept waiting for somebody to point out that I have a biased position on the issue - I make a living out of helping people make themselves welcome here - by going into business here.

While it may appear that I am "wasting a lot of time" on this board, that is not actually the case.  There are already people who have read this thread and contacted me to start getting info on how to make themselves legal here.  So this is one of the ways I prospect for business - or create business.

I am a spokesman for the idea of reacting to the present Thai governmental posture - if you now find yourself being pushed toward the exit door - by doing a makeover to make yourself welcome in Thailand.   Is that self-serving? - I suppose it is.  But this seems to me to ABSOLUTELY be one of the alternatives that should be included within a balanced discussion.

Am I a little bit abrasive - I guess so.  I'm really just trying to break a few folks out of "helpless deer in the headlights" mode.

And - for bazza - I was just talking hypothetically about all those OTHER dodgy guys.  I'm sure that if Thailand focused a strong spotlight on you and your activities (whatever those are), you would be welcomed with open arms, as a very beneficial foreigner who should be respected and honored.  That would be what would clearly set you out as a non-dodgy guy.  Do you not agree?

I have an idea - why don't some of you guys start a website called www.dodgythaivisa.com.  It appears that you could quickly gain a pretty good audience, from the amount of traffic I am seeing on the various discussion boards.  'Just kidding (and maybe you thought I have no sense of humour?).

Cheers!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well put...is layabouting a profession?

[ovenman]

Well put...is layabouting a profession?

If it is, it sounds like it may be soon added to Thailand's list of occupations prohibited to aliens.  

[MaiChai]

So many words and so little time... Thailand has some well educated people, but the government is entrenched with those who have worked their way up through the ranks, and who may not have benefited from a good education. This shows a lot in the way the rules and regulations are implemented. Often seeming not to be well though through, or the consequences considered. This seems to be a fact of life. Almost like the Thai child is growing up to too quickly, and can't keep abrest with the rapid progress. Thailands progress from a 3rd world to industrialised modern country. Thats the way I see it.

Thailands tourism has really been the torch that has sparked off Thailands economic success. Without foreigners coming here and learning about Thailand, there would not have been the interest in investing here. I don't just mean westerners but the japanese too. Foreigners quickly see the benefits in manufacturing or exporting from here. Thus, I believe tourism is important to Thailand (and still is).

It takes two to tango. If you allow a Disneyland to operate, the children will come and play. The sex/undesireable tourist comes because of what is available. If you don't want them to come, clean up your own neighbourhood! On the other hand, what percentage do these undesirable tourists make up?

Stiring up anti foreign feeling is so counter productive. What is the point? To make Thais proud or feel superior? We all live in a global economy. Simple way of looking at it; take away the imported oil and where would the country be? Isolationism does nobody any good (anyone remember communism?). The government should be seen to be against these ideas rather than reenforcing them.

[francois]

well said  

Might sound a little rough to the Thai premier but it sounds so true  

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

Indo-Siam,

Do you ever consider the potential customers you are turning away with your posts?  With your "abrasive" personality and lack of sympathy for people facing prison terms, fines, and banishment for a crime that was seen to be the normal mode of behavior, you not only alienate dodgy characters with dodgy visas, but also well-heeled people who have dodgy visas from mistakes of naivity or laziness.  

I myself wondered about your service when the news of the new rules of visas came out, as when I finish my degree here, I'll need to find a new means of staying legally and occupying my time.  But with all the insults spewed and your attitude of intolerance to those who do not meet your standards of productivity, you sucesfully have driven away my future business (and how many others, I wonder).  

One might be wise to consider that you have a competor here on the forum, Sun Belt Asia, who is not such an "abrasive" personality and provides a nearly identical service.

Work to live, and not live to work...

[bazza]

the key issue that need to be adressed here is not just the visa scam but the whole XENOPHOBIA that currently exists towards foreigners in general.every day there seems to be a new rule for this or that.

OK this is THIER country and we are just guests here, and they are free to do as they wish

thailand is a very insular place, and i just feel that the attitude of the present administration towards foreigners will eventually backfire on them.

Indo-siam....... look i dont want to make this personal or get into a slagging match with you. ive read your posts and i see your point of view and respect where you stand.and honestly i wish you goodluck in your endeavours here.so we shall agree to disagree OK .each to his own and respect for all.No hard feelings.none taken.im just looking at the situation from the opposite side of the fence from you

where i disagree with you is that i feel its not right that you should try to prescribe lifestyles to others.different strokes for different folks.you cant claim the moral high ground here.and your attitude seems slightly condascending , even conceited. good for you , you are doing well, great but in future spare me the ego trip

do you really believe that you are somehow  better or smarter than the rest of us.at the end of the day you are just another farang here.nothing more, nothing less.i mean what gives you the right look down on others , coz thats the way it seems from reading your posts.

dont take yourself too seriously ..... thats all i want to say to you.

Anyway back to the point i think that thailand is currently going down a very dangerous road, when the rest of the world is coming together and opening up, thailand seems to be going in the opposite direction.

at the moment i am reading a book about the how the Nazis came to power in Germany, the similarities with the current thai regime are striking to say the least.the words dictator /party/ nationalism and facism spring to mind.

[Axel]

1.  Guys suggesting letter-writing campaigns to shame Thailand into letting everybody just hang out here.

2.  Guys blaming embassiesfor letting all the decent citizens get hoodwinked by dodgy visa busineses that everyone felt were legitimate.

3.  Guys on here trying to wish into existence an amnesty campaign

4.  Guys like bazza trying to do I don't know what - form a hand-wringing circle?

Why do I read this forum? To see other opinions than my own. What I saw so far, "tourists" who stay here for months on end, walk across borders or travel to neighboring countries to stay legal as tourists either by visas or visa-exemptions. Nothing wrong there, as long a the IM-rules allow it, and as long as the tourists can support themselves. It gets doubtful if they might have some income here on LoS.

a) Guys (and gals?) who don't want to take the effort, to travel by themselves and got now caught on their chops.

Some young guys who have been advised that leaving the passport and pay some money is a legal way.

a) I called stupid before, I would carry under naive.

For these two 'categories'  I have some sympathy and suggested ways via embassies in big numbers, for the guys from Isle of Man I even think the tabloids might be an idea. (Shoot, I've been there once on business, but declared myself a tourist, certainly not legal.) I feel sorry that I have no real solutions. Why? 1-10 years is too much. Believe even for knowingly arranging for a false chop in our home countries is far less and finally a suspended sentence could be expected, albeit faking anything in your PP is a crime and not just a gentlemen's delict.

Amnesty was suggested and for above a) and I would second it. One reason, I feel sorry. Comment of an old and old friend, 35 years in Asia, the last 12 in LoS legally: "What's  wrong with these agents? They are just next to the IMHO"

There is another group c) People who looked down and talked negative about this "idiots" doing there visa-runs themselves feeling superior by sending the pp out. For these I have no feeling.

Indo-Siam, I have respect for your hard work and your career so far. I do work and that's many hours, I live in the "lower Sukh and work at Asoke", very similar to you, but I accept others who feel it's OK, to relax and have a nice life. Perhaps not my style, but than, everybody has different ideas. If you are happy with 300 Bt, or 1000 Bt to spend per day, why not. Dodgy is something else, I know a few cases, they did not make it at home and will not make it here.

Bazza did start the "Thailand is biting off the hand that feeds it" as topic. Sure interesting to discuss. My feeling, tourism is important to Thailand and will not be hurt. The regular tourist comes for 2-3 weeks one or twice a year. Some stay longer, quite legal on visas.

All leave their bucks and Euros here, these are big amounts. These regular visitors know where to stay and the money they spend stays here. They might not come to enjoy the temples, perhaps they like the bitches sorry beaches, Not my style, but there is an industry here.

More comments on this topic would be nice.

[Indo-Siam]

FWLAD -

All the insults I have spewed?   I have disparaged dodgy characters and whiners.  So - which are you, insofar as you feel I have insulted you?

If you are not a dodgy chacter, or a marginal character, or a whiner - then you should not have any feelings about what I say.

It is starting to appear that when I mention the marginals, a lot of people on this thread suddenly self-identify with that characterization, and take offense.

Well, for anyone who self-identifies with those terms - I guess we won't be tossing back any beers together.  

And I sure won't be setting up companies and work permits for driftwood - but then neither will Greg at Sunbelt.

I welcome and applaud adventurous souls who decide to exit what Thoreau called "lives of quiet desperation" - and step out into the world, and carve their own paths.  And I'm not talking about superhero types.  My firm is presently supporting startups or work permits for companies involved with education, oilfield services, water treatment services, internet security, foreign aid, import of household appliances, manufacture of precision metal parts, and exports of handicrafts.  In discussion stage with companies involved with rare books, and photography.  We've done websites for electronics distributors, consulting companies, pool halls, restaurants, real estate firms, fire safety equipment, and - well, I'm not even sure how to describe    Combatball - a toy?  We run the back office for a Thai cigar importer/distributor.  We produce books for an overseas trade organization.

I can assure you that the range of people who step up and make the plunge is very diverse and very variable in personality, financial wherewithal, nationality, and educational background.  But - none of them are sweating out fake entry permit stamps.  I wonder why that is?  Just lucky, I guess.

I represent one perspective - one alternative toward addressing the problem of being pushed out of Thailand as undesirable.  

It appears that a lot of folks here just HATE being reminded that there is an effective alternative to letting yourself be persecuted in Thailand for being a drone (1.  A male bee, especially a honeybee, characteristically stingless, performing no work, and producing no honey).   Drones basically exist to mate with nubile females.  I am sure that several folks around this board will self-identify with that definition - and yet resent being called drones.

Well, as nice as a drone's life is for a brief time, the working hive has no long-term use for such creatures.  

bazza - I know a bit about the rise of Nazi Germany.   It seems ludicrous to me to try to compare Thailand in 2003 with German National Socialism in the late 1930's.   I keep hearing in this thread that I sound bitter.   And then someone comes on here and says that Thailand putting pressure on unemployed foreigners to hit the road is like Naziism.    What sort of twisted bitterness translates Thailand in 2003 into Germany in 1939?  I see Thailand as a broadly tolerant place, full of generally happy people.   Compared to neighboring Burma, Laos, and Cambodia, Thailand is a roaring success.   It is certainly not a perfect place - corruption is widespread, education and income levels have a lot of room for improvement.   The 30 baht health program is a bad idea - but Canada tried a similar thing a few years back, so that's not a uniquely Thai idea.  But this is an upbeat place - and it appears to me to be steadily improving.

Back to the topic of the thread - is Thailand shooting itself in the foot by making foreigners with no gainful, legal employment here keep on moving?   And by reacting over-zealosly to immigration violators, immediately in advance of a significant meeting of  Asia-Pacific national leaders?

Many of you say yes - Thailand is making a big mistake, and will lose significant prestige, goodwill, and tourist revenue.

I say no - the people being affected are - as a group - economically, politically, and influentially insignificant, and their persecution will have no detectable impact on Thailand's well-being.

That's not a statement that makes a personal attack on any one individual who is having immigration problems.   That's an evaluation of a whole population of people who have several basic characteristics: one significant one being a tendency to perist in staying here with no gainful, legal employment in Thailand.

If you disagree with my assertion - fine.   In my replies on this thread, I have repeatedly stated that we will all be able to see who was right pretty soon - in 2, 4, or 6 months.  If Thailand goes through an economic downturn during the next 6-18 months, it will be strong ammunition for your case - and I will look like a pretty inept forecaster.  If Thailand prospers, it will basically invalidate your "sky is falling in Thailand" predictions.   This is pretty simple stuff.   Thailand's fortunes go up, down or stay the same.  You win if it goes down,  I win if it stays the same or prospers. Do you still think you have a strong position?

I didn't start this thread.  Until people starting addressing me personally, I made no comments directed at any one person here except Heng.

I like disscussions.  I like tossing different views on a subject into the arena, and letting the arguments battle it out.  I am not a wizard - I can't see into the future.  I can only craft my arguments, and then see if they can survive in the competition.  Good ideas and arguments win, weak ideas and arguments go down in flames.

This section of the Thaivisa forum is about "Thai visas, residency, and work permits".  That is the core piece of my chosen field of business in Thailand.  So I actively participate in this forum.   I normally find threads here from people asking questions to which I can provide well-informed answers.

Well, right now, the ENTIRE page of discussion topics is about the tightening immigration situation.   So I put my comments into a couple of threads.  I thought that was what this board was about.    

I guess it is time to retire from the discussion - it doesn't seem to be covering much new ground anymore.

So - you can have the final word.

Indo-Siam

[Sunbelt Asia]

I understand and sympathize on the wake up call that’s taking place. The rules are not changing on passports, they are just now being enforced. You can blame Hambali for the wakeup call. I don’t think Prime Minister Thaksin was aware of passports being sent out of the country to this degree. What would you do if you were him? Probably the same…making sure it doesn’t happen again. I think most people if they were him, would set an example. In a couple months, deport the people that sent their passport out, after it has sunk in. Thailand is changing.

Whatever continent you’re from… Europe, America, Australia…. no government would take it lightly having people overstay their visa, by sending the visa out. They certainly would deport. How much jail time, that’s another matter.  

The good news is anybody can be legal. You don't have to take the shortcuts.

[simon43]

My two bits worth..I started coming to Thailand at the start of this year, sounding out business and meeting the local girls.  After a few visits on a 30 day tourist visa I realised that sooner or later I could be in trouble because my reasons for visiting LOS did not meet the definition of a 'tourist'.  So I declared my intention to investigate a new business venture to the UK Hull consulate and received a multiple-entry B visa within 3 days...

Next step was to continue my regular visits to LOS and - because there certainly seemed to be good business opportunities - I contacted Greg at Sunbelt Asia to set up a Thai ltd company.  This would enable me to get a work permit for myself as i tried out this new business idea.

To date i have never had any problems with the Thai authorities.  I have never felt discriminated against by any Thai.  I make every effort i can to speak, read and write Thai, and to try to understand the Thai culture.

Sure - it has cost me money to do all this, but at least i have relative peace of mind, a good business opportunity (and a lovely GF...)

Cutting corners will always backfire on you sometime in the future, hence my minimal sympathy for those caught up in the visa scams.

[pantarei]

It appears that a lot of folks here just HATE being reminded that there is an effective alternative to letting yourself be persecuted in Thailand for being a drone (1.  A male bee, especially a honeybee, characteristically stingless, performing no work, and producing no honey).

DRONES

(i) I have spent my career working in R&D departments of several companies.  Technical people (mostly PhDs, some with multiple PhDs) referred to the HR department as “drones” or “PC drones”.  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t a major part of your business outsourced HR work?  If so, then by some standards --------.

(ii) one of the (effective) alternative definitions of “drone” (Merriam-Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary, e-version):

“one who does menial, routine, or boring work”

shuffling papers ?

PS.  IMHO, the problem is not the message: the problem is the messengers way of conveying the message.  Same same as Dubya (iron fist in velvet glove - OK; iron fist in iron glove -no OK).

[kenkannif]

Simon,

So you didn't apply for your Non-imm B with the correct paperwork that they require?

EVIDENCE OF REASON FOR VISIT TO THAILAND:-

a) Visiting spouse: Provide copy of marriage certificate (in English).

Visiting friends: Provide written guarantee (see below).

c) Retirement: Contact this office for details but please note that until further notice all applications for ?O-A? Long Stay visas must be submitted to the Royal Thai Embassy, 30 Queen?s Gate, London SW7 5JB (tel: 020 7589 2944).

d) Charity work: Copy of letter of appointment from recognised charity.

e) BUSINESS:

i) Letter from company confirming employment/appointment and stating reason for visit.

AND

ii) Letter from company confirming that it will meet all expenses of visitor during stay in Thailand including costs of repatriation to UK.

WRITTEN GUARANTEE:-

Persons requiring Non-Immigrant Visas who are not able to provide a letter of employment or appointment or marriage certificate are required to provide a letter of guarantee from someone who is prepared to meet any costs incurred by the applicant which they cannot pay themselves including the cost of repatriation if necessary.

The wording of such a letter to be as follows:-

Name of guarantor

Address of guarantor

Date

I (name of guarantor) have known (name of applicant) for ___ years and understand him/her to have sufficient funds to meet any reasonable costs which may be incurred during their stay in Thailand including the cost of returning to the UK. However, in the event of it being necessary I (name of guarantor) hereby undertake to meet any expenses which may be incurred by (name of visitor) including the cost of repatriation.

Signature of guarantor

Then you have gained a Non-imm B illegally, thus (as with the Visa stamps) making it an illegal Visa. Let's hope they don't start checking up on these as well..huh?

[simon43]

Er wrong...I applied for my non-imm B visa exactly as per the business reason.  It is my company that is setting up in Thailand and so i provided my letterhead statement, my accounts for my UK business, my reasons for wanting to do business in LOS.  All totally legit

[ericploy]

The people who are affected are all the dodgy characters who cannot get or create legal jobs.  They think they are crucially important to keep the system running.  We'll soon see - because it appears to me that the pincers are slowly closing, and all the "drones" are about to find themselves looking for a new place to hang out.  

I am coming comparatively late into this thread so will answer a few posts on the trot.

Have you tried getting a work permit while working at a normal thai school?  I have and got turned down because the school wasnt registered with the Ministry of Education.  Even if they had been, I was paid less than 30K a month, less than the minimum amount for a WP. I then had to decide to work on a tourist visa or leave.  

Does that make me dodgy or the school dodgy just because I loved the job and wanted to help the kids?  According to you, I would be one of your undesirables.

[mrentoul]

This is from a Thai blogger, Tom Vamvanij. It's wordy, but he gets his point across:

Disenfranchised? Join the Kingdom

My good friend Jay asked me to comment on Gordon Sharpless's gripes about disenfranchisement of Thailand's expats, which begin thus:

Many expats living in Thailand have felt a bit under fire since Thaksin Shinawatra's Thai Rak Thai government took power with a nationalist/populist platform. There have been new and stricter regulations on foreign-owned businesses and investment, a substantial increase in visa and work permit fees, and stricter visa requirements ...[subbed]

Awwww, nothing moves me more than underprivileged expats in distress. Why do we keep tormenting these poor souls? They're people, too, you know, just like us.

[section follows on Thai constitution]

Some rights and liberties, aren't they? Too bad they belong mostly to the Thai state, not the Thai people.

Want something specific about business and investment? Dig this: no Thais are allowed to own any radio or TV stations (except one) all of which belong to various organs the state (two TV stations to the Mass Communication Organization of Thailand, two other to the Army and the other one to the Public Relations Department). [subbed]

But I digressed. Where were we -- tell me again of your grievances, Mr. Sharpless. Not that I don't take the plight of expats seriously -- I do -- but being a selfish jerk that I am, I sometimes put my own petty concerns above all else.

Hence I often overlook the less fortunate, like the "foreign labor" (from Laos, Burma and Cambodia) who are not even allowed to travel outside the provinces for which their work permits are issued and some hill-tribe people who face similar restrictions despite their forebears' having settled in what is now Thailand since time immemorial.

And oh, I almost forgot, there's also the Western expats like Mr. Sharpless who can't buy land except through a proxy.

How can I forget such extreme injustices (the last one especially)? Why am I so shallow and whine as though I'm Thailand's No.1 victim? Now, you'll never do that, right, Mr. Sharpless?

But seriously, we are in this together. All of us in Thailand, local and foreign, suffer from Thailand's ancient mindset that's been passed down from feudal and colonial times.

Springing from this same root are nationalism, statism, xenophobia, mercantilism and protectionism and we would do well to get rid of them all.

So why not try to forge a united front against that entrenched mindset instead of resorting to divisive, them-against-us self-pity? The Thais, after all, don't have a monopoly on this anachronistic thinking. (If Mr. Sharpless thinks Cambodia is more enlightened than Thailand in this regard, then he should, by all means, "go".)

(ends)

I've taken a lot out because Tom doesn't know when to stop, and I hate long posts. But you get the gist.

[ericploy]

It will effect however all those working here illegally and get rid of all those who could not even get a job in their own country but are elevated to "teachers of English" in Thailand. This does not effect the real teachers or people who do have something positive to contribute here. Yes I know work permits are hard to get, but if you are qualified and you find a job, a work permit will be given to you.

oh really, a WP will be given to you?  See my post above.

And for your information, I did have a job at home with a Blue Chip company but decided to come here instead of having a working day 17 hours long and being a corporate clone.

[kenkannif]

So I declared my intention to investigate a new business venture to the UK Hull consulate and received a multiple-entry B visa within 3 days...

You changed your tune pretty sharpish didn't you?

[simon43]

Kenkannif - I don't follow what you are trying to say.  I came over to Thailand for a break, found that there were some interesting business opportunities and so went down the legit route to investigate these. Now I have a Thai company and 2 offices...so what's your problem?

[ericploy]

4.  Guys like bazza trying to do I don't know what - form a hand-wringing circle?

My comments are critical of dodgy guys.  If you aren't a dodgy guy, you shouldn't care what I say.  If you are a dodgy guy, then - well, I guess my comments are kicking you in the face.  

No, Bazza came on this board for advice, what he or anyone else caught up in this is the smug I'm alright Jack hahaha  attitudes that many are posting and you do come into this category.

I think the german name for this is Shardenfreud.  Why not provide some advice rather than just blanket tough, grow up and take the medicine?

Oh yes, lets everyone who is not dodgy sit back and not do anything while you attack them.  Why the #### should I not be offended by your attacks on others?  If I do nothing this time, it may be me you are attacking next time.

[ericploy]

  Just being realistic as well.   I think the tourism comment is off the mark at being the # 1 industry.   The trickle down from those tourist spots you mention isn't as much as you think (IMO).   It's some nice icing to those service type businesses (hotels, guest houses, restaurants, etc.), but even those would survive without tourists.  Perhaps an exception would be the upper tier resort type operations and of course the tour companies themselves that would suffer (and are truly dependent) as a result of a huge tourist drop off.   Of course Thailand is only a developing economy.   But saying that it is completely dependent on tourism is to say that California could not survive without Disneyland or the LA Lakers.    

I think the thousands of export driven SMEs, those related to agricultural exports (rice, orchids, etc.), narcotics exports, cross border gambling, heavy industrial estate export type businesses, etc. would disagree that they depend on tourism somehow.   Some figures would be nice for comparision, maybe I'll google a few when I have some time.    

You are right about the export stuff but even there, if a person who is here on holiday goes back with lots of good Thai stuff as souveniers and then at home see a Thai product, they might be more liable to buy it.  No?

For the tourist destinations, just look back at SARS, every level was being effected.  Hotels at 20,25% occupancy and so on.  Why else was the government promoting Thais to be tourists in their own country? To replace the falang.  What % would go under if there were no tourists, I dont know but quite a few I would imagine.  There is no way Thais could fill the gap, the money is just not there.

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

well said, ericploy.

indo-siam, its not that I feel insulted by you that I object to, its that you find the need to disparage or insult anyone that I find offensive.

[ericploy]

is immigration in europe very different?

get caught with a fake visa stamp and you will see  

Yes it is.  

There arent travel agents on every street and companies in newspapers advertising  Visa services with no need to travel yourself to the border to have visas extended.

[ericploy]

And - for bazza - I was just talking hypothetically about all those OTHER dodgy guys.  I'm sure that if Thailand focused a strong spotlight on you and your activities (whatever those are), you would be welcomed with open arms, as a very beneficial foreigner who should be respected and honored.  That would be what would clearly set you out as a non-dodgy guy.  Do you not agree?

Changing your tack a little arent you?  So, is he dodgy or not dodgy?  Or just the other guys called Bazza on the board.

[samran]

Just my 2 cents..

Firstly, I’ll declare my background so people know where I am coming from. I am a Thai dual citizen, so it is easy for me to live here and I don't have to put up with the hassle that some people on this board go though. Thus, I may not understand totally what some of you have to put up with. Also, I don’t particularly like this current PM, for anyone here who thinks I am sticking up for him.

With that over with….

I would ask any of the people who are complaining about the tightening of rules here in Thailand, how do these new rules compare with other nations in the world? In my view, the rules are coming in line with what the rest of the world does and in a lot of respects, still easier overall as long as you follow the rules.

Apart from getting a work permit, most western countries(countries where most people on this board come from) don't make it very easy for the average Joe to turn up and just stay if they feel like it for more than a 3 to 6 month holiday. Even if you want to work, you better make sure that you are young and highly skilled.

Consider the UK, until recently, if you were a non-EU citizen it was near impossible to migrate to the UK unless you had a parent or grand parent born there. Now there is a system which lets people migrate, but they have to be highly skilled (ie have a masters degree, earn more than 40,000 pounds a year and have a minimum of 5 years professional experience). In 2002, the UK only let in a couple of hundred people under this scheme.

Or consider Australia (where I am originally from). Last year Australia took 120,000 migrants, not bad for a country of 19 million. But it isn't easy to get in. You have to be young; in most cases university educated and have a skill which is considered to be beneficial to the economy. You can then submit your application,  part with a couple of thousand dollars in non-refundable application fees, get police clearances, wait about a year and then maybe be allowed to migrate. Even New Zealanders, who can still live and work in OZ, don't automatically get residency anymore. Canada’s system is similar to Australia’s

Otherwise, for these countries you can invest a minimum of a couple of hundred thousand dollars/pounds, and take a risk in running your business. (Oh, and you don’t have the benefit of dirt cheap staff there either)

I could go on.....(and don’t even get me started about legitimate immigration to the rest of the EU)

Now consider Thailand. OK, its not easy to come here. But should it be easy??  For genuine holidays/vacations, yes. But if you have no skills that will help develop this nation’s economy in the long term, my answer is: NO WAY.

Looking for people who can contribute constructively to a country has increasingly become the basis of many country's immigration systems. Thailand is no different.

If you are skilled and a Thai company wants you, a work permit is usually a formality. If you want to start a business, well I see from this board that it is very possible to do that. And the costs are no where near as prohibitive as for western countries. Work here long enough, pay taxes, learn a bit of Thai and as my Australian boss recently did, you get your residency.

Yes, I realise that I have simplified things here, but I think I have illustrated that Thailand is simply pulling itself in line with what there rest of the world does things, by the book, clearly, transparently and with an eye to the country’s development.

[mrentoul]

Why do I read this forum? To see other opinions than my own.

I don't. I come to see my own prejudices confirmed! (joke)

If you want to start a business, well I see from this board that it is very possible to do that. And the costs are no where near as prohibitive as for western countries. Work here long enough, pay taxes, learn a bit of Thai and as my Australian boss recently did, you get your residency.

Thailand is simply pulling itself in line with what there rest of the world does things, by the book, clearly, transparently and with an eye to the country’s development.

Nicely put.

[taxexile]

Thailand is simply pulling itself in line with what there rest of the world does things, by the book, clearly, transparently

if that were the case i dont think anybody would be complaining.

the laws and rules here are applied without any regularity ,constancy or uniformity by officials who often do not know the rules properly and can be persuaded to bend them. nobody knows where they stand with regard to the rules.

if thailand wants to pull itself in line with the rest of the world, then those that apply the laws will have to start

doing their jobs in a professional way,and treat people in a fair way.

the laws themselves should be clear as to what is expected,and people should be secure in the fact that the goalposts are not suddenly going to be shifted without warning.

as for transparency,well ,we can dream.

if the thaksin govt. can achieve this then thailand would be more respected around the world. some of the actions of politicians and the police here are beyond wonderment and do nothing to improve thailands reputation.

but it is not for the falang to demand change,or to complain to the authorities when things are not as in our homelands.

the thai people are quite capable of making their voices heard when they wish.

[marty]

Quote: samran

“Looking for people who can contribute constructively to a country has increasingly become the basis of many country's immigration systems. Thailand is no different.

If you are skilled and a Thai company wants you, a work permit is usually a formality. If you want to start a business, well I see from this board that it is very possible to do that. And the costs are no where near as prohibitive as for western countries. Work here long enough, pay taxes, learn a bit of Thai and as my Australian boss recently did, you get your residency.

Yes, I realise that I have simplified things here, but I think I have illustrated that Thailand is simply pulling itself in line with what there rest of the world does things, by the book, clearly, transparently and with an eye to the country’s development.”

Yes, Samran, you have simplified things. Unlike most Western countries, Thailand has an extensive list of occupations prohibited to aliens, and it also severely restricts ownership of property by resident aliens. Generally, foreigners working for Thai companies are given Work Permits by being euphemistically classified as “consultants” (when in practice they are actually doing the work).

Also, no one seems to have answers for the very real concerns/questions posted by ericploy and danbo:

ericploy

“Have you tried getting a work permit while working at a normal thai school?  I have and got turned down because the school wasnt registered with the Ministry of Education.  Even if they had been, I was paid less than 30K a month, less than the minimum amount for a WP. I then had to decide to work on a tourist visa or leave.  

Does that make me dodgy or the school dodgy just because I loved the job and wanted to help the kids?  According to you, I would be one of your undesirables.

danbo

“Dr P - if a person is under 50, and not married to a Thai, is not being a "30 day" or "60 day"  extender the only way of staying in Thailand as a "long term tourist";  regardless of the level of support available (10M Baht investor excluded) ?

If a person not under 50 and married to a Thai is spending 50-60K Baht a month and not working then what is the difference (financially to Thailand) between them and someone on a 2-week package tour to Phuket?”

No difference, danbo, if you can rely on what the TAT had to say about the latter. Problem is no-one knows who makes the rules, or when the rules may change:

BOOSTING TOURISM: One-year stay for foreign retirees

Published on July 28, 2001

In a bid to increase tourism revenue, one-year visas will be granted to foreign retirees. The Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) announced yesterday that the government has approved its plan to promote the country as a long-stay destination for senior citizens, a move aimed at generating more than Bt100 million in revenue.

The TAT's long-stay tourism project is designed to attract foreign retirees from countries such as the United States, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and Scandinavia, the TAT said.

"It is estimated that the project will attract about 200,000 senior citizens, aged 55-plus, who could potentially stay up to 10 months and spend more than Bt50,000 per person per month. This will generate an additional Bt100 million for the economy," the TAT said.

TAT chairman Somsak Thepsutin said: "The project will help create more jobs for Thai people and also help the housing and real estate businesses, which have been strongly affected by the economic crisis."

Basic tourism facilities, including restaurants and medical facilities, especially in provincial areas, will be developed to meet international standards.

Government agencies would work to ensure safety and security for long-term visitors while a one-stop service centre will be established to help the visitors complete the necessary paperwork.

The TAT said that last year international visitors totalled 9.5 million, up 10.8 per cent over 1999. Of the total, the number of visitors aged 55 to 64 years grew by 5.8 per cent to 86,800. Visitors aged 65 and over showed a 17.74-per-cent increase.

The government is organising a tourism workshop on Koh Samui to draft measures to promote the tourism industry to the degree where it can generate Bt50 billion this year.

The government plans to hold similar workshops later in Pattaya, Phuket and Hat Yai.

The Nation, Agence France-Presse

[samran]

Can't complain with the points you made Marty, but I'll try and respond to a couple of points by unsimplifying a bit:

1) "Thailand has an extensive list of occupations prohibited to aliens".

Reply: yes it does. But many countries have other equally stringent measures to protect their resident labour market. The UK for example, requires that when you apply for a work permit that the employer undertake a resident labour market test. That means, through various means, that you have to prove that no other EU citizen can do the job that you want the foreigner to do, which is not easy!

2) The Thai govt. "severely restricts ownership of property by resident aliens".

Reply: Whether it makes sense or not, the Thai public are generally very scared of foreigners owning land here. No politician is therefore going to advocate anything different. Plus there are bigger and easier fish to fry in terms of policy.

Even in Australia (which is one of the freest trading countries in the world), the general public still have a problem with foreign ownership.  The govt there still require all foreigners to have their land purchases reviewed by the Foreign Investment Review Board at the Federal Treasury.

In reality, in Thailand it seems though that there at least is a way around these problems, as it is possible to obtain very long term leases for houses etc. As I understand, in many bigger cities of the world (including BKK), due to various factors, it is pretty hard to buy freehold anyway. (I stand to be corrected on this last point).

3) “Foreigners working for Thai companies are given Work Permits by being euphemistically classified as “consultants”. “

Reply: Mutual recognition of qualifications is a big problem internationally. Even amongst developed nations these things haven't been resolved. It is not a Thai specific thing.

For example, Singapore recently signed separate free trade deals with the US, Australia and New Zealand so that from now on many professional employment categories will be recognised as if they were local ones. So for example, Australian qualified lawyers and accountants (as of 2003) will be allowed to practice in Singapore.  

However, Thailand is actively working to change this. As you may or may not know, Thailand and Australia are currently negotiating a free trade pact. One of the issues that both sides are keen to resolve is the issues of mutual recognition of qualifications. Hopefully soon, at least Australians will be able to work here in most cases, in their chosen profession without having to be called "consultants". Check out www.dfat.gov.au for more information. If this FTA is successful, I know for a fact that the RTG is keen to go ahead with more agreements like this.

4) "If a person not under 50 and married to a Thai is spending 50-60K Baht a month and not working then what is the difference (financially to Thailand) between them and someone on a 2-week package tour to Phuket?”

Reply: Difference is that the 2 week package people go home. Like it or not, Thailand as a sovereign nation can choose who comes here, how they come here, and how long they can stay for. Most governments already take the view that you are no longer a bona-fide tourist after 3-6 moths. After that, it is a different game.  

The after this point, governments take the view that who ever stays should provide the maximum benefit to the country, ie be highly skilled,  willing to work and pay taxes,  with a level of human capital which can help create the foundation for economic growth that can't come from simple spending. And if you have money and want to stay here, you invest it local business and let it pay dividends for the economy.

5) “Have you tried getting a work permit while working at a normal Thai school?"

Reply:  Thailand definitely needs higher English language capabilities. It actually needs better teacher’s full stop. This income rule for work permits presents a catch 22. Higher income roughly equates to highly skilled but not always. What Thailand needs do is create a category of visa for people such as qualified teachers who can work in government schools. Apparently the govt has a policy of attracting foreign teachers to Thai schools, so maybe we'll see some changes in regulations soon.

Having said that, there is enough law breaking in Thailand already, so what we don't need is foreigners coming here and working illegally, no matter how stupid the law may seem. Foreigners’ breaking the law only creates a bad image for all foreigners in Thailand.

[Axel]

Actually, it is refereshing to see samran's comments, either well researched or based on experience. Wether we like it or not comparisions to other countries are justified.

Just a few days ago, we had the story by one member who reported that his GF or fiancee's visa application to visit UK was denied. I believe all the embassies in BKK are full of rejected files. I can only speak for some EU-rules (although I am sure it's the same for USA and AUS/NZ) Any EU National can come freely to Thailand and stay without a visa 30 days. Thailand does not make any problems. How come Thais

wishing to visit the EU have to apply for a visa and face rejection if female and too young or not supported?

Just a thought.

As for the laws in Thailand, I agree, the goal posts are moved all the time. Sometimes the laws are applied by the authorities, sometimes not. Sometimes "dormant" laws are undusted and put into effect. Well, if such laws are not filed away somewhere, the government could make new ones, the result would be the same.

But, especially in Thailand the foreigners usually are treated leniently and lots of rules are bended, the authorities closing their eyes. In Europe? Another example, I had a employee with

a HKG-passport visiting UK as a 'tourist'. Entry denied, just the size of his luggage was reason to return him by the immigration at Heathrow.