Political Parallels Between Iran And Thailand

[Jingthing]

Its interesting to see what is happening in Iran now and how it compares and contrasts with Thailand.

In Iran:

Divided between traditionalists more loyal to the power elite and reformers (greens)

In Thailand:

Divided between factions more loyal to the power elite (yellows) and more populist reformers (reds)

In Iran:

elections likely stolen by election fraud by the traditionalists

In Thailand:

elections impacted by vote buying by reformers

In Iran:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

In Thailand:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

In Iran:

not a real democracy

In Thailand:

not a real democracy

In Iran:

the traditionalist elites currently hold on to power

In Thailand:

the traditionalist elites currently hold on to power

I am of course not saying they are in the same situation, it is just interesting to consider the similarities and differences. Has anyone else had thoughts about this?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[mhatami]

Its interesting to see what is happening in Iran now and how it compares and contrasts with Thailand.

In Iran:

Divided between traditionalists more loyal to the power elite and reformers (greens)

In Thailand:

Divided between factions more loyal to the power elite (yellows) and more populist reformers (reds)

In Iran:

elections likely stolen by election fraud by the traditionalists

In Thailand:

elections impacted by vote buying by reformers

In Iran:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

In Thailand:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

I am of course not saying they are in the same situation, it is just interesting to consider the similarities and differences. Has anyone else had thoughts about this?

Is this true all over the world? The powerful and rich try and will still election using force, money or media

[Jingthing]

Is this true all over the world? The powerful and rich try and will still election using force, money or media

Well yes but I don't think every country is so radically divided into two clear factions, and I don't think every country is seething with the potential of a revolution.

I reckon the greens in Iran figure that their hopes were stolen so the question is do they have the patience to wait four more years to watch it get stolen AGAIN? I would bet they won't have that patience. Similarly to Thailand, the red faction will not wait for years to push their agenda forcefully again.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[khundon]

Its interesting to see what is happening in Iran now and how it compares and contrasts with Thailand.

In Iran:

Divided between traditionalists more loyal to the power elite and reformers (greens)

In Thailand:

Divided between factions more loyal to the power elite (yellows) and more populist reformers (reds)

In Iran:

elections likely stolen by election fraud by the traditionalists

In Thailand:

elections impacted by vote buying by reformers

In Iran:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

In Thailand:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

In Iran:

not a real democracy

In Thailand:

not a real democracy

In Iran:

the traditionalist elites currently hold on to power

In Thailand:

the traditionalist elites currently hold on to power

I am of course not saying they are in the same situation, it is just interesting to consider the similarities and differences. Has anyone else had thoughts about this?

Jingthing

Very true but you forgot to add:

Iran, loads of oil and maybe some nukes.

Thailand, bottled gas and chillies.

[Plus]

Except no one is proposing any reform in Thailand.

Red agenda here is reformless. PAD, on the other hand, wants to completely rebuild local political scene, but you already dumped them with traditionalists.

I think you are coming from the wrong premise here - that "elites" pull all the strings and control everything here, and politicians are just powerless but honest servants of the people.

The only reform proposed by reds and which is now being pushed by their MPs is to put politicans above the laws and beyond scrutiny. Does that sound like a parallel with Iran? I don't think so.

[MayBeLater]

Is this true all over the world? The powerful and rich try and will still election using force, money or media

Well yes but I don't think every country is so radically divided into two clear factions, and I don't think every country is seething with the potential of a revolution.

I reckon the greens in Iran figure that their hopes were stolen so the question is do they have the patience to wait four more years to watch it get stolen AGAIN? I would bet they won't have that patience. Similarly to Thailand, the red faction will not wait for years to push their agenda forcefully again.

There will not be any revolution in Iran for decades to come, they just had a revolution and revolutions aint flowers that you can pick yearly. Revolutions are extremely exceptional. Furthermore as long as the (former?) bully of the world keeps pestering smaller nations like Iran, North Korea the people in those countries will never ever rise up against their regime. No matter how they may hate their regime, its THEIR regime and not the trigger happy, cultural unsensitive and basicly totally out of touch bully around the corner that will occupy them (in their opinion) as soon as they it has the chance.

In Thailand there will not be a revolution either, just some violent clashes.

In the end the traditionalists win, its the tide world is in, democracy fortunately is on the demise (more then half a century too late).

Some nice and well thought of parallels though. But so many differences that the comparison is not really viable.

Edited June 14, 2009 by MayBeLater

[JohnGotti]

The huge difference is the protests in Iran are being done by students, by the educated and wealthy. They are not being paid to protest. You see, the videos? They are wearing expensive clothing and just by looking at them, you get the feeling that they are intelligent. I see the movement in Iran as a true, actual movement of honest social change.

Thailand is simply powerful figures moving pawns on a chessboard.

[Jingthing]

OK, here is another one.

In Iran:

the leader in power Ahmadinejad representing the traditional conservative power elites considered a NUTTER internationally

In Thailand:

the leader out of power Thaksin representing populist reformers considered a NUTTER internationally

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[JohnGotti]

Thaksin is not considered a nutter. Ahmadinejad is completely out of his mind psychopath. Thaksin is just a corrupt businessman.

[Carib]

Its interesting to see what is happening in Iran now and how it compares and contrasts with Thailand.

In Iran:

Divided between traditionalists more loyal to the power elite and reformers (greens)

In Thailand:

Divided between factions more loyal to the power elite (yellows) and more populist reformers (reds)

In Iran:

elections likely stolen by election fraud by the traditionalists

In Thailand:

elections impacted by vote buying by reformers

In Iran:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

In Thailand:

a huge mass of people, reformers, who are now very unhappy and potentially revolutionary

In Iran:

not a real democracy

In Thailand:

not a real democracy

In Iran:

the traditionalist elites currently hold on to power

In Thailand:

the traditionalist elites currently hold on to power

I am of course not saying they are in the same situation, it is just interesting to consider the similarities and differences. Has anyone else had thoughts about this?

The same goes for lots of countries, even the ones we " think" are so democratic and " modern".

Another conversation which no doubt will go the same way as lots of other already, when talking about political subjects.

This road trying to get Thailand into every subject, just to make it a legit topic and than end up discussing other countries foreign policy and strategies is becoming more and more the norm on Thai Visa.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Carib

[Jingthing]

Another conversation which no doubt will go the same way as lots of other already, when talking about political subjects.

It was going fine until you just threw some cold water on it. Thanks a bunch! The idea for the thread was sincere. These are two divided countries in crisis and I thought people might be interested in comparing the two situations.

Thailand does not exist in a vacuum. I don't see any problem with comparing Thai politics to the politics of another country on this forum. If it is a problem, how about letting the mods moderate, rather than being an amateur cyber cop?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[mhatami]

Is this true all over the world? The powerful and rich try and will still election using force, money or media

Well yes but I don't think every country is so radically divided into two clear factions, and I don't think every country is seething with the potential of a revolution.

I reckon the greens in Iran figure that their hopes were stolen so the question is do they have the patience to wait four more years to watch it get stolen AGAIN? I would bet they won't have that patience. Similarly to Thailand, the red faction will not wait for years to push their agenda forcefully again.

I don’t think any group are more divided than USA Democrats and Republicans like Red, yellow, etc, etc

[Jingthing]

Thaksin is not considered a nutter. Ahmadinejad is completely out of his mind psychopath. Thaksin is just a corrupt businessman.

I would agree Ahmadinejad is considered much more of a nutter and a much more dangerous nutter than Thaksin, but I am sorry, the way Thaksin came across on the international media during black Songkran made him look like a nutter to the entire world.

[mhatami]

Thaksin is not considered a nutter. Ahmadinejad is completely out of his mind psychopath. Thaksin is just a corrupt businessman.

Agree, Ahmadinejad is completely out of his mind psychopath but not selfish at all. But Thakins corrupt and very selfish

[Jingthing]

I don’t think any group are more divided than USA Democrats and Republicans like Red, yellow, etc, etc

The US is divided but less so than in the recent past, and the US has relatively fair elections and there are no revolutionary forces there. The US was just able to make a major change in power, democratically, something not really possible in Iran or Thailand. So I don't think injecting the US into this discussion is really helpful.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[mhatami]

Is this true all over the world? The powerful and rich try and will still election using force, money or media

Well yes but I don't think every country is so radically divided into two clear factions, and I don't think every country is seething with the potential of a revolution.

I reckon the greens in Iran figure that their hopes were stolen so the question is do they have the patience to wait four more years to watch it get stolen AGAIN? I would bet they won't have that patience. Similarly to Thailand, the red faction will not wait for years to push their agenda forcefully again.

I just hope that Red will go away for long while, getting tired of all different color, but like before I had wish this too and it did not come true

[Carib]

I don’t think any group are more divided than USA Democrats and Republicans like Red, yellow, etc, etc

The US is divided but less so than in the recent past, and the US has relatively fair elections and there are no revolutionary forces there. The US was just able to make a major change in power, democratically, something not really possible in Iran or Thailand. So I don't think injecting the US into this discussion is really helpful.

Right, it is record.... Again..........Thanks for proving my point.

[JohnGotti]

"Mr. Mousavi was responsible for the mass executions of 80-81 and the dark summer of 1988 where over thirty thousand political prisoners were executed and buried in mass graves"

Hmm... Maybe this movement is not all that great after all.

[Jingthing]

"Mr. Mousavi was responsible for the mass executions of 80-81 and the dark summer of 1988 where over thirty thousand political prisoners were executed and buried in mass graves"

Hmm... Maybe this movement is not all that great after all.

Sometimes it isn't the specific individual that is that important but the constituency and message that he currently conveys. I don't think he is all that beloved personally even among his supporters, it is more about his message and that he represents more of an open Iran.

Contrast to Thaksin, who is more of a case of the cult of personality. However, he is also associated with executions of his own people ...

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[jackdanielsesq]

Although I abhor the the comparison, Buddhists didnt bomb NY, and never will, ergo at a more fundamental level, the Kingdom of Thailand is a magnificent country, with its heart in the right place, whereas Iran is the ultimate pariah state.

None of us would even dream of hanging out in Tehran.

The same can be said of many Muslim countries, whose mantra is not on the same page as that of any civilized country that I have every visited. I count LOS as indeed one of those very civilized countries.

BR>Jack

[Jingthing]

I don't know about that. I reckon the poor farmer in Iran and Thailand have a lot in common! As does the Bangkok yuppie with the Tehran yuppie.

If Iran loosens things up a bit more I think it would be a fantastic vacation destination, I love the food, they have a great historic civilization, and the young Persians are among the world's most lovely people. Lets not demonize Iranian people, they may be stuck with an awful government, but they are hardly alone in that.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Jingthing

[BusyB]

I don't know about that. I reckon the poor farmer in Iran and Thailand have a lot in common! As does the Bangkok yuppie with the Tehran yuppie.

If Iran loosens things up a bit more I think it would be a fantastic vacation destination, I love the food, they have a great historic civilization, and the young Persians are among the world's most lovely people. Lets not demonize Iranian people, they may be stuck with an awful government, but they are hardly alone in that.

It's a good and interesting comparison and helps shed light I think on current and recent goings on in LOS. Regardless of political inclinations, individual and local differences and cultures, reform/no reform, elites/masses etc., it actually looks like the classic rural/urban divide. Not only in los + iran but in many if not most developing/threshold countries today, all unfolding at roughly the same time as a result of global trade and communications. It’s a stage the G8 countries for example went through over hundreds of years before settling for the ballot box as a method of redistributing wealth and education etc. rather than fratricide. It’s what sparked the Russian revolution. They’re essentially the same struggles - we had Oliver Cromwell, the Thais have Thaksin Shinawatra, the Iranians have Mahmoud Ahmadinedjad (amongst others).

The process has only been underway for around 130 years in los, during which the military has unfortunately needed the last 80 or so (it now appears I think) to learn that coups don’t help any and only cause them problems. Airport occupations and teargas with your song kran som tam are pains in the *ss of course, but they're also history in the making. In Iran the process was completely stymied between 1953 and 1979 by US/UK action there beginning 1953. The kickback from that (and Iraq next door) is still fuelling politics there - atomically.

The Thai’s and the Iranians’ll find their own solutions – possibly incorporating some western experience and possibly a lot faster than our ancestors did as well. But those solutions will be what THEY need, and will probably look quite different to what the average westerner would want or expect or like. That’s why we have diplomatic corps.

[oldsparrow]

(it now appears I think) to learn that coups don’t help any and only cause them problems.

***

There is now a new possibility for coup:

"The junta hired by politician to act as "stabiliser" at the "right time".

On 12 April late afternoon-evening when the PM had authority but not control, it "was" a sort of coup without militray TV show. It was actually almost become a real coup.

The new generation of military commanders may see that the coup cause them SOME problem not ONLY trouble. But "them" means those juntas of the previous coups, not the new generation in the "new" situation.

Less possibility of the "classic" coup of junta take all command and more possibility of the "business" coup in cooperation with politicians and tycoons.

In general, they can do the coup because the people are not REALLY hate the coup. During Somchai' admin many REALLY called for coup..

Edited June 15, 2009 by oldsparrow

[Jingthing]

Another apt comparison:

In Iran. the majority of the power concentrated in the military

in Thailand: the majority of the power concentrated in the military

Apparently there are others considering how the news from Iran relates to other fake democracies around the world, such as Thailand.

Meanwhile, authoritarian regimes in Russia, Central Asia and elsewhere spent the past decade learning to manipulate elections, giving themselves bogus legitimacy and producing a new form of "managed democracy": Authoritarianism camouflaged in democratic rhetoric.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...9061401990.html

Edited June 15, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Here is another one.

Assuming Ahmadinejad holds on to his ill gotten presidency ....

In Iran:

The world seeing Iran as having a not fully legitimate leader, and one subject to internal protests/future political instability

In Thailand:

The world seeing Thailand as having a not fully legitimate leader (as the path to Abhisit's power was paved with a coup and then a yellow mob protest followed by questionable ejections of puppets of the opposition) , and one subject to internal protests/future political instability

[BusyB]

(it now appears I think) to learn that coups don’t help any and only cause them problems.

***

There is now a new possibility for coup:

"The junta hired by politician to act as "stabiliser" at the "right time".

On 12 April late afternoon-evening when the PM had authority but not control, it "was" a sort of coup without militray TV show. It was actually almost become a real coup.

The new generation of military commanders may see that the coup cause them SOME problem not ONLY trouble. But "them" means those juntas of the previous coups, not the new generation in the "new" situation.

Less possibility of the "classic" coup of junta take all command and more possibility of the "business" coup in cooperation with politicians and tycoons.

In general, they can do the coup because the people are not REALLY hate the coup. During Somchai' admin many REALLY called for coup..

Agreed, however the business angle was always there. My immediate point is that 20 years ago the shots fired this song kran would not have been aimed above the crowds but rather into them, and Thailand would have a military junta right now. I think we can agree that’s at least some improvement. The failure and embarrassment of High Command’s last attempts to steer the country, especially economically, may have turned the 2006 coup into a blessing in disguise. Anupong doesn’t strike me as a fool.

As far as business and elite influence goes, don’t underestimate the influence of former western military careerists when they take up posts in industry, finance and politics either. The revolving door is a well known institution in the west as well. All the “great” families turn out generals and politicians etc. by the generation too – it’s pretty stitched up back home also, just not as obvious, and camouflaged against a generally more democratic and egalitarian background.

But for what it's worth my post was mostly a response to Jingthing’s OP, agreeing that Thailand and Iran are indeed fundamentally split along urban-rural lines, despite local peculiarities like history and culture and of course religion. It’s merely a common stage of development. Traces of it are evident in the blood ‘sports’ debate in UK for instance - people living in the same country but in different worlds.

[Spee]

Its interesting to see what is happening in Iran now and how it compares and contrasts with Thailand.

It contrasts about 1000% more than it compares.

- Iran is a facist theocracy. Thailand is neither facist nor a theocracy.

- Iran has hundreds of thousands of heroin addicts, and a reported 4M regular opiate users, almost 3% of the population (highest in the world according to the UN). Thailand has a drug problem like any other country, but nothing anywhere near these levels.

- The Iranian government is an enemy of the US. Thailand is a staunch ally.

- Iran is a destabilizing force in its region. Thailand is a stabilizing force in its region.

- Iran provides most of the funding and arms support for Hezbollah and other militant factions present in other countries, which are responsible for much of the regional instability. Thailand does no such thing.

- Iran prohibits all religions except Islam and the government actively persecutes non-Muslims. Though majority Buddhist, Thai law permits freedom of religion and Thailand has had a rich history of religious tolerance, including Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics, Jews and Muslims (current southern strife aside).

- Iran uses force of religion and force of the police and military to prevent government change. Thailand does neither.

- The Ayatollah of Iran is revered by a small minority, and reviled by the vast majority. The King of Thailand is highly revered by all.

The list of contrasts goes on ad infinitum. In short, Iran and Thailand are much closer to complete opposites and nowhere near parallels.

This is a topic is search of meaning and substance, IMHO.

[Spee]

I reckon the poor farmer in Iran and Thailand have a lot in common!

By all means, please elaborate. This has gotta be good ...

As does the Bangkok yuppie with the Tehran yuppie.

Yeah, that ol' TV sure has been full of Bangkok yuppies getting "wood shampoos" from the police this week.

[oldsparrow]

Thailand and Iran are indeed fundamentally split along urban-rural lines, despite local peculiarities like history and culture and of course religion.

****

I don't know what it is in Iran. For Thailand the social profiterring / personal advance networks are verticalmore than horizontal.

Interest groups and also bureaucrats form their columme of team work. Top brass/business tycoon downward to the smallest worker or pawn in case of political movement.

Regionalism is pretty weak. Most of he time when it appears it's just political sterring of local politicians. You can see in the mass migration to BKK and the lack of local thing in the top brass circle. Everyboday has to speak central-BKK language very well.

Differences in people lifestyles make it looks like social class system. There is actually class system in terms of livelyhood and social influence but the cooperation in the same class seem to be only at the top.

Despite the competition politicians, tycoons and top bureaucrat look after each other quite well.

[fullwhenempty]

It contrasts about 1000% more than it compares.

- Iran is a facist theocracy. Thailand is neither facist nor a theocracy.

Your post is littered with Islamophobia.

Please define 'fascist'.Is a theocracy better or worse than the separation of Church and State? Hasn't that seperation allowed western finance capital (banker bandits and oligarchs) to plunder nations' wealth and create millions of debt-slaves, unhindered by any sense of morality? Isn't that fascism? The Mussolini Business model?

- Iran has hundreds of thousands of heroin addicts, and a reported 4M regular opiate users, almost 3% of the population (highest in the world according to the UN). Thailand has a drug problem like any other country, but nothing anywhere near these levels.

Why is this a surprise? Young Iranians are paying the price for Nato's 'failure' to curb opium production in neighbouring Afghanistan.

- The Iranian government is an enemy of the US.

Isn't it the US (at Israel's behest) who are the enemy of Iran? How many Iranian warships stand off the U.S. coast?

- Iran is a destabilizing force in its region. Thailand is a stabilizing force in its region.

Iran-bashing again. The creation of Israel quite clearly has caused the instability.

- Iran provides most of the funding and arms support for Hezbollah and other militant factions present in other countries, which are responsible for much of the regional instability.

So we are told. If it's true, isn't this a reaction to the creation of an illegal state, a western or Zionist outpost smack bang in the middle of Muslim lands? Israel seeks regional instability to justify it's deadly war machine (funded by your tax dollars), to continue to acquire land and to continually play the victim. Prod your enemy with a stick then cry foul when he responds. It's an old game. Iran has helped the U.S. in Afghanistan and cooperated fully with Nuclear inspectors. You really expect Iran not to try and defend itself from others aggression?

- Iran prohibits all religions except Islam and the government actively persecutes non-Muslims.

Not so. There are 30,000 Jews living in Tehran. Able to practice freely. There also happens to be a major problem in the south of Thailand with non-Buddhists feeling persecuted.

- Iran uses force of religion and force of the police and military to prevent government change. Thailand does neither.

You are just parroting media propaganda. Name one country Iran has invaded in the last 500 years? All countries need to maintain stability and the western assault on Iran HAS led to a stifling of democratic movements. Hardly surprising when the U.S. spends $100 million per year on undermining the Iranian government. It's public policy. Iran has been a theocracy for thousands of years. Why not just leave the Muslims alone with their religion? If it was so bad the countries would have emptied out years ago.

By the way. How many military coups has Thailand experienced in the last 50 years? 17? Perhaps you missed it.

- The Ayatollah of Iran is revered by a small minority, and reviled by the vast majority.

How do you know this? Because the media told you? Come on.

The list of contrasts goes on ad infinitum. In short, Iran and Thailand are much closer to complete opposites and nowhere near parallels. This is a topic is search of meaning and substance, IMHO.

When you can provide some substance then you can demand it.

Edited June 16, 2009 by fullwhenempty