No Witch-hunt On Foreign Ownership: Lands Department

[george]

No witch-hunt, says Lands Department

Foreign ownership debate intensifies

BANGKOK: -- The Lands Department does not have a policy to scrutinise acquisitions in which illegal use of Thai nominees on behalf of foreigners is suspected, says director-general Anuwat Maytheewibulwut.

We have some regulations and processes to investigate illegality, but not that many. We must respect individual rights and assume individuals will not give fake statements to officials - Anuwat Maytheewibulwut Director-general, lands department

Land ownership revocation cases mostly occur when a complaint or conflict is brought to the department's attention, he said.

"Each year there are 5.5 million [more...]

-- Bangkok Post 2009-06-15

[Hardback]

Land ownership revocation cases mostly occur when a complaint or conflict is brought to the department's attention.

Phew! because no-one would tell tales on or dob in anyone here and the investigation that followed (if the were told on) wouldn't be biased in anyway. I'm glad this has all been cleared up.

[Hardback]

Land ownership revocation cases mostly occur when a complaint or conflict is brought to the department's attention.

Phew! because no-one would tell tales on or dob in anyone here and the investigation that followed (if the were told on) wouldn't be biased in anyway. I'm glad this has all been cleared up.

[trogers]

Land ownership revocation cases mostly occur when a complaint or conflict is brought to the department's attention.

Phew! because no-one would tell tales on or dob in anyone here and the investigation that followed (if the were told on) wouldn't be biased in anyway. I'm glad this has all been cleared up.

No witch hunt, but the issue will be like Sword of Damocles hanging over your head.

[imaneggspurt]

I have just been told of a lady in jomtien whos japanese boyfriend bought her a house a few years back, she has just gone to sell it and has been asked where she got the money from and they want proof, ill keep us posted,

[Journalist]

There is no point having a Law if the authorities announce that they are not going to enforce it.

Having cosmetic rules is all well and good, but it makes a mockery of them, if their validity doesn't even receive lip service.

[PennyFarthing123]

For the woman in Jomtien, it could be they are asking for tax purposes. How much of the selling price is profit and taxable. Since the house was essentially a gift the entire amount of the sale would be profit.

[JR Texas]

I have just been told of a lady in jomtien whos japanese boyfriend bought her a house a few years back, she has just gone to sell it and has been asked where she got the money from and they want proof, ill keep us posted,

Wow........real world vs. myth that is does not matter or will never be enforced......or just relax, nothing to worry about.

I think Trogers is right (earlier post): "...the issue will be like a Sword of Damocles hanging over our heads." (my changes)

They could, if they wanted to, take my house right now. And I would get nothing.......and my wife would get nothing. But they would certainly get something: a huge amount of negative and unwanted publicity.

Still, it is good that somebody in that department has come out and made a statement about this in an attempt to calm fears. I don't feel calm about the issue and won't until they remove the language from the law.

[george]

Ways sought to win back foreign buyers

BANGKOK: -- Increased government scrutiny of land purchases by foreigners will hurt investment in all types of property, says Patima Jeerapaet, managing director of the property agency Colliers International Thailand.

The quiet property market in major tourist destinations such as Phuket, Samui, Hua Hin and Pattaya will get quieter if foreigners face more difficulty buying in Thailand, he said.

Meanwhile, he said, investigations by the Lands Department could cause foreign investors to hold back or place less importance on Thailand.

"This guideline announcement [dated Jan 22, 2009] will hurt not only the residential sector but also others like industrial estates," he said.

"When the announcement was released, nothing could be done with it. I think we [government and private sector] should organise a roundtable and find an exit together."

In his view, the announcement should not have been in the form of a guideline, as this might open a loophole for corruption. The issue should be resolved with practical regulations that impose the same standards on all officials.

He recommends setting up international economic zones where foreigners can buy condominiums beyond the 49% quota if they meet the government's requirements. The leasehold period should also be extended from the current 30 years to 90 or 99 years, as in China and Vietnam, he said.

"We need to regain their confidence, which was lost after the April turbulence. Then we expected they might suspend their decisions for at least two quarters. Now it might take more than a year," he said.

To stimulate foreign demand, the government should allow local banks to consider financial support to foreign buyers. Visas based on the amount that a foreigner invests in Thailand could be another incentive.

"We don't need to promote [property purchase and investment] to new foreign residents who are unknown to us. Instead, we should promote sales to foreigners living here," he said.

As the new chairman of the property committee of the Joint Foreign Chambers of Commerce in Thailand (JFCCT), Mr Patima will propose that the government take urgent measures to stimulate foreign demand in the property market, especially through tourism as it brings in real-estate purchases.

"Land ownership by foreigners is an urgent agenda item we are researching," he said. "There are many models applicable to Thailand. We're collecting the information and doing research to see what models are most feasible."

The study covers international practices relating to property ownership by foreigners in Malaysia, Russia, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States. It will also examine the Japanese and Australian models.

"The most feasible model is that of the UK, as most of our laws are adapted from that country. The UK allows foreigners to buy property but we don't need to copy everything. It might be limited to zones," he said.

-- Bangkok Post 2009-06-15

[Robert44]

Just be very sure that you don't upset your neighbours.

Several of my Thai friends (jokingly ??) are saying that they think this is great way of getting land cheap off farangs. As all they need to do is look for any land or house where a Farang lives an then write to the land office complaining.

[Junglejumbo]

my friend sold a house which a foreigner had bought and the land department wanted to know where the money came from . But they only wanted 6moths of bank statement and the person had already kept cash in the Thai persons account for that time, actually doing some trading business. So there wasn't a problem.

Personally, I respect the Thai rules here. There are so many "hit and run" stories of Thai woman getting the house then wanting a divorce or causing so many problems in the relationship, and then the alien walks away leaving the house. It's a trick. Follow the Thai rules, they're also there to protect you. Get a 30 year lease, renew it every 5yrs. You can own the bricks and mortar--just not the land. You only need to lease the land.

[jonclark]

Bangkok Post Quote

'For anyone involved in land ownership on behalf of foreigners, what they should be sure of is concern for the nation, ethics and morality in applying the law to make sure they are good Thai citizens," he said.'

Can anyone give me five names of politicians who have shown concern for the nation, ethics and morality and are good Thai citizens ????

P.S - Equality and Fair play are both ethical and moral traits aren't they?

[imaneggspurt]

For the woman in Jomtien, it could be they are asking for tax purposes. How much of the selling price is profit and taxable. Since the house was essentially a gift the entire amount of the sale would be profit.

Correct, it is tax related,

[hcvc]

LEGAL LANDMINES

Abuse of loopholes by some has made it harder for foreigners who wish to acquire property in full compliance with the law

Foreigners seeking dream homes in Thailand find it almost impossible to do so legally if they also want to own the land on which the home sits. The law allows them to own land only if they are legal heirs or invest at least 40 million baht in the country, or have a Thai spouse buy it using money that is proved to be the spouse's personal asset.

Many foreigners as a result opt for leaseholds or buy a condominium unit, as the law allows them to own up to 49% of total sellable area of a condominium building.

Some don't like either choice and pursue other strategies. Some of these strategies are completely legal, others exploit grey areas in the law, but some are just plain illegal.

For many, the approach of choice is to set up a legal Thai company, in which foreigners cannot own of more than 49%, to own the land. The practice has led to widespread use of Thai nominees to buy or own land for foreigners. In many cases it has been suspected that the Thai nominees did not put up any money of their own.

The Lands Department, a branch of the Interior Ministry, has guidelines in place for its offices throughout the country to check for possible legal avoidance before registering land ownership. The officials' checklist for a company with foreign shareholders includes the Thai party's source of funds for the land purchase, bank account, career, position, income, salary and workplace.

For land acquisitions by any Thai who has a foreign spouse, the department has another set of guidelines, some of them based on real cases, issued in December 2005 (see "Guidelines for officials".

However, the term sin suan tua or "personal asset" used in the guidelines worries some foreign spouses. They feel insecure and believe they might lose the asset in case of a divorce from their Thai mate.

Nirut Dej-udom, a partner with the law firm Bangkok Jurist Limited, suggests a legal right, called Real Right in civil law, would offer more assurance to a foreigner whose Thai spouse owns the land the foreigner purchased, as this law provides better protection than a leasehold.

Among the three kinds of Real Right that can apply to land, the most suitable for residential purposes is known as "superficies right" or right over the property, which can be granted to other party to own buildings, structures or plantations.

After a land transfer is legally done between a Thai spouse and the property seller, with a confirmation letter where personal assets are detailed, a superficies right granted by the Thai spouse to a foreigner can be registered at a land office, says Mr Nirut, who has studied this law for 10 years and applied it for the past five years.

With a superficies right, he adds, the foreigner can own the house on the land, have a right to transfer and transmit the right by inheritance and can use it for a mortgage.

In contrast, a foreigner with a leasehold cannot own the house, transfer or give it as an inheritance or use it for a mortgage. As well, the leasehold contract will be cancelled when the tenant dies.

"Why don't we do it as the law allows to do?" Mr Nirut asks rhetorically. "It's better to not avoid the law or you have to keep escaping. The further you escape, the narrower the route will be and the more curves and twists it will have.

"If you [foreigner] buy a land via a company, there will be other problems awaiting. You have to find a Thai party holding at least 51% of the company while that Thai party must show the land authority documents to prove their sources of funds. Doing so is like tying many knots."

Before jumping to the solution of using superficies right, Mr Nirut suggests foreigners ask themselves what their requirements are, then see what the law allows to do and seek what right fits their requirements. If they find no law or regulations in line with their requirements or limitations, they should cut some requirements or limitations off.

To promote property businesses that target foreigners, Mr Nirut suggests the government offer leasing rights for residence of up to 50 years, issued as an act and allowing for inheritance, transfer and mortgaging.

The government, he says, can fine-tune the requirements or regulations. These could include special zones where such rights are allowed, buyers' qualifications, sources of funds, minimum investment in Thailand, minimum housing prices for leasing or land size. The rules could be used to screen for the types of foreigners the country wants to attract.

Mr Nirut believes rules could be drafted that could attract foreigners while ensuring the government would not be criticised for "betraying" the country.

He also supports increasing the foreign quota for condominiums in some locations where unit prices are too high for most Thais.

He says it is the duty of everyone involved to ensure that foreigners understand what their legal rights in Thailand are. "Government policy does not create the obstruction. If you want to stay here, you should comply with Thai laws," he says.

-- Bangkok Post 2009-06-15

Edited June 15, 2009 by hcvc

[Pierrot]

They could, if they wanted to, take my house right now. And I would get nothing.......and my wife would get nothing. But they would certainly get something: a huge amount of negative and unwanted publicity.

1. They can't take your house because you don't have one. After a thousand posts on this subject, making such comment, you're really thick !

2. If your wife is found to have act as your nominee, which is illegal, "we will ask them to transfer or sell that piece of land within 180 to 365 days." (from the BP). Learn to read ! The authority will just ask your wife to sell the house, and let sort out between the two of you how to share the money.

[jonclark]

"Mr Nirut believes rules could be drafted that could attract foreigners while ensuring the government would not be criticised for "betraying" the country"

Oh yes 'betraying the country' - Good old fashioned military rhetoric , gotta love it, stir up the nationalistic pride and tie the hands of the government or parties looking for change.

But how would it betray the country? - well we [whoever we are will remain a mystery ]won't give a reason..........and don't ask for one, cause it's jolly unpatriotic to do so.

[Thai at Heart]

"Mr Nirut believes rules could be drafted that could attract foreigners while ensuring the government would not be criticised for "betraying" the country"

Oh yes 'betraying the country' - Good old fashioned military rhetoric , gotta love it, stir up the nationalistic pride and tie the hands of the government or parties looking for change.

But how would it betray the country? - well we [whoever we are will remain a mystery ]won't give a reason..........and don't ask for one, cause it's jolly unpatriotic to do so.

History shows that once that phrase is thrown into the debate, it is 99.9999% guaranteed that there will be no more discussion of the matter.

No Thai politician or bureaucrat dares to stand on the side of any subject that can be deemed "selling or betraying the country". It is this complete irrationality that stops any serious debate about land ownership.

[A_Traveller]

Guidelines for officials

The following summary is translated from a handbook for Lands Department officials to consider land acquisitions by Thai individuals with foreign spouses. It was issued on Dec 22, 2005. LINK

IIRC there's more in the print edition since there's a section about 'new' [2009] [more general] additions, but I can't see that on the site. [Had to hunt for this]

Regards

[Pierrot]

"Mr Nirut believes rules could be drafted that could attract foreigners while ensuring the government would not be criticised for "betraying" the country"

Oh yes 'betraying the country' - Good old fashioned military rhetoric , gotta love it, stir up the nationalistic pride and tie the hands of the government or parties looking for change.

But how would it betray the country? - well we [whoever we are will remain a mystery ]won't give a reason..........and don't ask for one, cause it's jolly unpatriotic to do so.

In diplomatic terms, Mr Nirut says that a compromise can be found.

Rome wasn't build in a day. Anything that goes in the right direction, giving real rights to foreigners willing to invest in Thailand, is good news.

[JR Texas]

They could, if they wanted to, take my house right now. And I would get nothing.......and my wife would get nothing. But they would certainly get something: a huge amount of negative and unwanted publicity.

1. They can't take your house because you don't have one. After a thousand posts on this subject, making such comment, you're really thick !

2. If your wife is found to have act as your nominee, which is illegal, "we will ask them to transfer or sell that piece of land within 180 to 365 days." (from the BP). Learn to read ! The authority will just ask your wife to sell the house, and let sort out between the two of you how to share the money.

Thank you for your most constructive and kind response.

What I read was from the Land Department Director-General Anuwat Meteewiboonwat. I assume he believes what he says.

He stated that homes can be confiscated if the funds used to buy them came from a foreign spouse.

Now, that might not bother you, but it bothers me and apparently several others.

By the way, if this issue is so clear, why is it that, in your words, there have been "thousands of posts on this subject."

If they seize my house I suppose I should be feel nothing because I don't even have one according to you....that makes me feel better, really does.

So, if the Land Department decides that I have done something illegal and orders my house, sorry, our house, sorry her house confiscated, you actually think they will allow me to share the money from the sale of it?

That does not make any sense. Confiscation is like seizure.......the government takes the house, sells it, and the money goes to the government.

Now, that is how I interpreted what Khun Meteewiboonwat wrote/said.

What really concerns me is that the "law" could easily be misapplied and abused for various reason.

It is good that Khun Meteewiboonwat is trying to clarify what he said......maybe they will change their position on this and calm any concerns about homes being seized.

[MaiChai]

Sigh. Here we go again. Thais don't want foreigners buying property in Thailand. If you can't put it in your name then don't buy it. All the other shenanigans are exploiting loopholes and you are not able to fully protect your investment. Rent or find another warm country to buy a house where you can put it in your name.

There will eventually be a day when Thais either accept foreigners in Thailand, or turn against us. Politicians here have no interest in promoting foreigners rights, apart from a PR perspective to keep the tourists coming and spending money.

The Bangkok Post article has some interesting comments about Thais xenophobia regarding this.

[wackysleet]

There is no point having a Law if the authorities announce that they are not going to enforce it.

Having cosmetic rules is all well and good, but it makes a mockery of them, if their validity doesn't even receive lip service.

No change there then, ie; crash helmets, 3 on a m/c built for two, seat belts etc.

[brahmburgers]

Just be very sure that you don't upset your neighbours.

Several of my Thai friends (jokingly ??) are saying that they think this is great way of getting land cheap off farangs. As all they need to do is look for any land or house where a Farang lives an then write to the land office complaining.

I hassle with one of my Thai neighbors (his barking dogs, etc). It would be easy for him to trump me by going to authorities and say things that might jeopardize my tentative existence here. Who are authorities going to side with (?) ...a Thai family which vehemently don't want an obstinate farang in their midst, or a single, sometimes-grouchy farang? It's not just Thais might do something underhanded in this regard. I know a farang who harassed an ex-girlfriend of his (a young Thai/Akha lady) - by telling the foreign imm authorities (where she wanted to emigrate with her fiancee) bad and untrue things about the lady. He successfully bolloxed her opportunity of marrying and settling overseas. A mean-spirited person with an emotional agenda can take this 'tentative land stewardship issue' (or whatever you want to call it) and cause grief for someone they don't like.

There will eventually be a day when Thais either accept foreigners in Thailand, or turn against us.

Not too far-fetched. It happened in Zimbabwe. Let's hope Thai top tamales do the reasonable thing, and make it easier for farang to secure property here in Thailand. It's a win-win situation, which benefits Thais also - not just the sellers of properties, but also the sellers of products and services who will benefit from the bundles of outside revenue circulating out from nearly every farang who resides here. There are also a raft of potential benefits when Thais interact with farang in positive ways - educational, social, inspirational - but that's a whole other subject.

[Ga-gai]

Why would any expat want to own land? You can lease it for 99 years and place a house on it. I'll doubt there are many (or any) of us here that will get any older than [current age] + 99 years. What happens after we're gone out of the cremation chimney, is not of any concern by then.

[Texpat]

He stated that homes can be confiscated if the funds used to buy them came from a foreign spouse.

What?

Farangs can't contribute to the building of a house in Thailand?

Even if its the one they live in?

Is this new?

[kurtgruen]

He stated that homes can be confiscated if the funds used to buy them came from a foreign spouse.

What?

Farangs can't contribute to the building of a house in Thailand?

Even if its the one they live in?

Is this new?

Homes can be owned by foreigers, just not the land that they are built on. Legally, if the Thai owner of the land wants to kick out the foreign owner of the house on the land, he or she will have to reimburse him for the house first. All kinds of laws I checked into, before building. Still haven't build, because I like my money in Canada, where it feels safe and where I have some rights to protect me, without the legal goal posts being moved every election.

Ahhh, it's so good to be home again. Intelligent conversations, food without fish sauce and Palm oil, clean water and air. Why did I spent 8 years of my life in Thailand???

[Phatcharanan]

Ahhh, it's so good to be home again. Intelligent conversations, food without fish sauce and Palm oil, clean water and air. Why did I spent 8 years of my life in Thailand???

Ahhhhhh yes. And Canada is so great that here you are.........boring us all with your views, on a Thai forum.

Go and club a seal or whatever it is you guys do for fun.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Phatcharanan

[moe666]

JR Texas I thought you were moving to the Philippines since the visa rules are better.

[jonclark]

Ahhh, it's so good to be home again. Intelligent conversations, food without fish sauce and Palm oil, clean water and air. Why did I spent 8 years of my life in Thailand???

Ahhhhhh yes. And Canada is so great that here you are.........boring us all with your views, on a Thai forum.

Go and club a seal or whatever it is you guys do for fun.

Or stay in Thailand drink Lao Kao and club your wife when you get home drunk - But that's a little off topic don't ya think?

Back on topic - It seems that the majority of people who contribute to this forum have enough experience of Thailand and its' legal landmines and pitfalls to know that whatever the authorities may say is worthless, and I'm sure a number of our Thai friends will concur with that point.

Basically, keep your money in your wallet and if, like me, your an expat working over here, keep your money until you return home and then splash out on a new pad. Take your money out of Thailand - that's the only way to keep your investments safe. After what I've seen happen and the horror stories I've heard over the last couple of years Thailand owes a debt of gratitude to the expats that have stayed here and the tourists who've come (and don't give me that bo**ocks about being guests the majority of expats here are active members of Thai society and are not guests.)

Personally I wouldn't buy land here until I've seen new land laws passed and then foreigners successfully win land dispute cases based on the new laws in court. The only way to have any certainty that the law can be successfully applied.

Thailand has its' current laws , but you have your money and you have the choice, choose wisely !

Edited June 15, 2009 by jonclark

[rethaired]

Now, let's look at things from a Thai perspective:

Suppose we let foreigners have the right to buy land and houses,... what do you think will happen?

I believe that inflation will occur because rich (relatively to Thais) will buy lots of land and houses because they have the means. Houses and land price will go much higher. How will the average Thai afford a house now? Sure, in time, his salary might go up, but it will take time. And, if there is inflation, cheaper Thailand will not be for very long!

What do you think?

So, aren't those laws needed to protect the average Thai citizen who does not usually have as much as foreigners?