"he Is A Good Boy, He Takes Care Of His Family."

[Briggsy]

Coalminer

I have sympathy for your point of view.

One Thai I know only sends her mother 1000 Baht at a time in the knowledge she will only waste it on cards if she sends any more.

Incidentally, on a linguistic point, how, in Thai, was the phrase "hard-earned house" put as you have oft-heard. Please feel free to type in Thai as I can read it.

P.s. You are also aware, no doubt, that filial piety is hammered into the kids from Prathom 1. The message is repeatedly taught throughout the education system.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Briggsy

[wackysleet]

It speaks volumes about a society ie; government that cares so little for it's elderly that in a lot of cases they do/would suffer extreme hardship if it wasn't for their children helping out, in my view this is the government renegueing on their social responsibilities.

It appears from reports that a large number of thais drink to excess and also gamble a lot, upto them, but a lot of posts have commented on this saying that if they didn't contribute to the family then said family would suffer, perhaps.

What I have a problem getting my head around is that some parents know that their daughters {and sons} are selling their bodies to enable them to send the family money and I have also seen some families with new vehicles and M/Cs and do not appear to have any conscience about the morality of the situation.

Education is the way forward and I do see a lot of people making sacrifices to give their children the necessary start in life that will break the mould.

[Heng]

Gov't as parent is about as effective as gov't as your personal physician. If my parents and grandparents were gambling drunks, I'd certainly be able to handle the situation MUCH better than my local amphur, district, and/or parliament could.

[Heng]

What I have a problem getting my head around is that some parents know that their daughters {and sons} are selling their bodies to enable them to send the family money and I have also seen some families with new vehicles and M/Cs and do not appear to have any conscience about the morality of the situation.

Education is the way forward and I do see a lot of people making sacrifices to give their children the necessary start in life that will break the mould.

Natural selection is the way forward (into a dead end) for these folks and their genetic lines.

[wackysleet]

Gov't as parent is about as effective as gov't as your personal physician. If my parents and grandparents were gambling drunks, I'd certainly be able to handle the situation MUCH better than my local amphur, district, and/or parliament could.

I would certainly hope so Heng but the point I was making is that the government should be making adequate provision for the elderly not that pittance that does nothing at all for their dignity, education thats where money should be going, not into certain peoples pocket.

[Heng]

Gov't as parent is about as effective as gov't as your personal physician. If my parents and grandparents were gambling drunks, I'd certainly be able to handle the situation MUCH better than my local amphur, district, and/or parliament could.

I would certainly hope so Heng but the point I was making is that the government should be making adequate provision for the elderly not that pittance that does nothing at all for their dignity, education thats where money should be going, not into certain peoples pocket.

Agree to a certain extent, but it's important not to confuse uneducated folks who CHOOSE not to employ common sense (such as not spending more than they make, drinking/gambling/spending in general that they don't need a finance professor to tell them that they cannot afford) and those that do.

[coalminer]

Coalminer

I have sympathy for your point of view.

Thanks.

One Thai I know only sends her mother 1000 Baht at a time in the knowledge she will only waste it on cards if she sends any more.

If the mother really waste the money, the Thai girl does a good thing in limiting the damages.

If not, she sends peanuts to her mother and find peace in her mind by telling such things.

Incidentally, on a linguistic point, how, in Thai, was the phrase "hard-earned house" put as you have oft-heard. Please feel free to type in Thai as I can read it.

Off topic in this thread, but in order to answer you, most of the (almost daily) quarrels are about "ngern", "chan tong tham ngaan som buk som ban ma gae ban", "chai ngern pen was len", etc.

P.s. You are also aware, no doubt, that filial piety is hammered into the kids from Prathom 1. The message is repeatedly taught throughout the education system.

I don't know the meaning of "filial piety", but I do know that the children in Thailand are hammered in their brains to have full "slavery" to older or higher people. A thing which many times I have to teach my kid NOT TO DO AUTOMATICLY.

Before she would have any humbleness or acceptance for any people, she need to be sure that these people have good things in their mind (difficult to explain in English).

My child shall not humbly "wai" and do anything Dutroux would ask, simply because he is older.

[Livinginexile]

Its interesting how you only see the negative side. I am married to "the good son". The one who helps his parents when they need it, picks his dad up at 6 am to take him to the boat to go to the mainland, picks him up from the boat, takes his mother shopping, gives them fish when he catches some, attends the family funerals and weddings, buys his mother a present on his birthday to say thank you for having him.

He has the "bad brother" who does squat for his parents but he doesn't seem to mind. He likes to help his parents, although sometimes he does feel stretched between helping his parents, his wife, running his business and helping his customers.

Are my inlaws drunks? nope, not lazy either. But they are 75 years old and living on their own and need help. Not everyone who helps their family is stupid or a loser and not everyone who gets helped by their children (or helps their children) is a stupid loser or a drunk waster.

And I am married to "the good daughter".

I think the difference is we don't mind in the least helping people who are trying to help themselves.

I would personally draw the line when it becomes obvious I am being used as a perenial cash cow.

It's got to be a 2 way street. It is all fine and dandy that our spouses help family members but at the end of the day, who's money are they using?

sbk I would be doing exactly the same if I was in your situation, they deserve your help.

[JohnGotti]

What I have a problem getting my head around is that some parents know that their daughters {and sons} are selling their bodies to enable them to send the family money and I have also seen some families with new vehicles and M/Cs and do not appear to have any conscience about the morality of the situation.

Education is the way forward and I do see a lot of people making sacrifices to give their children the necessary start in life that will break the mould.

Natural selection is the way forward (into a dead end) for these folks and their genetic lines.

Not really. I mean, not unless you perceive a future like that of history's past where the wealthy and powerful men had a monopoly on reproduction. Poor people reproduce more rapidly than the wealthy in the modern world.

[wackysleet]

What I have a problem getting my head around is that some parents know that their daughters {and sons} are selling their bodies to enable them to send the family money and I have also seen some families with new vehicles and M/Cs and do not appear to have any conscience about the morality of the situation.

Education is the way forward and I do see a lot of people making sacrifices to give their children the necessary start in life that will break the mould.

Not really. I mean, not unless you perceive a future like that of history's past where the wealthy and powerful men had a monopoly on reproduction. Poor people reproduce more rapidly than the wealthy in the modern world.

The uneducated peoples of the world or at least the undeveloped world perpetuate poverty by having large families which they patently cannot afford, look no further than the Indian continent where large families were the norm amongst the poor to ensure the parents were looked after in old age.

[Misplaced]

Coalminer

I have sympathy for your point of view.

Thanks.

I don't know the meaning of "filial piety", but I do know that the children in Thailand are hammered in their brains to have full "slavery" to older or higher people. A thing which many times I have to teach my kid NOT TO DO AUTOMATICLY.

Before she would have any humbleness or acceptance for any people, she need to be sure that these people have good things in their mind (difficult to explain in English).

My child shall not humbly "wai" and do anything Dutroux would ask, simply because he is older.

1) That's the ideology differences between western cultures and Asians (Thai, Japs, Chinese...). What you called "slavery" is actually considered "respect". I see nothing wrong with being respectful to your elders. May be that's the problem with many children today, they weren't taught to respect others especially elderly. I'm not saying all but MANY!

2) There's nothing wrong with "wai" in Thailand. It shows your child has good manors and was taught properly. You are not living in the west so adaptation to other cultures should be in consideration.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Misplaced

[Misplaced]

Its interesting how you only see the negative side. I am married to "the good son". The one who helps his parents when they need it, picks his dad up at 6 am to take him to the boat to go to the mainland, picks him up from the boat, takes his mother shopping, gives them fish when he catches some, attends the family funerals and weddings, buys his mother a present on his birthday to say thank you for having him.

He has the "bad brother" who does squat for his parents but he doesn't seem to mind. He likes to help his parents, although sometimes he does feel stretched between helping his parents, his wife, running his business and helping his customers.

Are my inlaws drunks? nope, not lazy either. But they are 75 years old and living on their own and need help. Not everyone who helps their family is stupid or a loser and not everyone who gets helped by their children (or helps their children) is a stupid loser or a drunk waster.

Completely agree with SBK. In asia you don't see many elderly being placed in nursing homes to be left to rott. Not saying it doesn't happen just not as much as in the west.

For all of you who think this is so negative, lets hope you never need your children to help you as you get older. I'm sure many of you will change your minds when that time comes.

[wackysleet]

Completely agree with SBK. In asia you don't see many elderly being placed in nursing homes to be left to rott. Not saying it doesn't happen just not as much as in the west.

For all of you who think this is so negative, lets hope you never need your children to help you as you get older. I'm sure many of you will change your minds when that time comes.

You should perhaps read the posts a little closer, the topic was really about the spongers or whatever name you would like to use, it wasn't about the vast majority of elderly people who do deserve help if needed and should be given it but the ones who gamble and drink to excess is where the rub lies.

I know several friends whose wife is the primary carer for the parents and receive virtually no help from other members of the family, so stop being so naive, not all thais are parogons of virtue.

[sbk]

Actually, my issue here isn't discussing the spongers but the fact that sole emphasis is being placed on the spongers. To understand the spongers you have to understand the underlying beliefs, both the negative and positive aspects.

To me, threads that focus solely on the negative are rather pointless. I guess I can't understand those people who are unwilling to accept the good with the bad, but rather prefer to hammer on only about the bad.

[bangkokrick]

Actually, my issue here isn't discussing the spongers but the fact that sole emphasis is being placed on the spongers. To understand the spongers you have to understand the underlying beliefs, both the negative and positive aspects.

To me, threads that focus solely on the negative are rather pointless. I guess I can't understand those people who are unwilling to accept the good with the bad, but rather prefer to hammer on only about the bad.

Sounds to me that you have a good husband SBK. There is nothing wrong in helping your family and unfortuneatley we seem to have lost this quality in the West.

My wifes mother is alcoholic and her father unwell, she and her sisters break a leg to make sure they are OK and I for one am very proud of the fact that they do.

whats wrong with looking after mum and dad for after all they did give you your life.

Cheers, Rick

[473geo]

I've posted before on this family topic vein.....

If in your own life you have enjoyed the undoubted luxury of family support for almost everything you do.......if you have supported each other through financial hardship and emotional hardship.......if you have appreciated the sacrifices your parents made to clothe you, pay for your education.....the family bond is very strong.....

In Thailand....all over the world......

If you have no experience or understanding of such bonds......you have missed out on one of the most endearing, prolonged, emotionally rewarding experiences in life.........

In my humble family orientated opinion....

[Misplaced]

You should perhaps read the posts a little closer, the topic was really about the spongers or whatever name you would like to use, it wasn't about the vast majority of elderly people who do deserve help if needed and should be given it but the ones who gamble and drink to excess is where the rub lies.

I know several friends whose wife is the primary carer for the parents and receive virtually no help from other members of the family, so stop being so naive, not all thais are parogons of virtue.

If spongers is the topic than why did the op implies in his first 2 paragraph that taking care of family is Stupid? Or did you misread that part?

Point out where I wrote that "all Thais are paragons of virtue" ..... I wrote in reference to "Asian" cultures vs western belief or have you not noticed the difference while visiting/living in Asia?

[coalminer]

Coalminer

I have sympathy for your point of view.

Thanks.

I don't know the meaning of "filial piety", but I do know that the children in Thailand are hammered in their brains to have full "slavery" to older or higher people. A thing which many times I have to teach my kid NOT TO DO AUTOMATICLY.

Before she would have any humbleness or acceptance for any people, she need to be sure that these people have good things in their mind (difficult to explain in English).

My child shall not humbly "wai" and do anything Dutroux would ask, simply because he is older.

1) That's the ideology differences between western cultures and Asians (Thai, Japs, Chinese...). What you called "slavery" is actually considered "respect". I see nothing wrong with being respectful to your elders. May be that's the problem with many children today, they weren't taught to respect others especially elderly. I'm not saying all but MANY!

2) There's nothing wrong with "wai" in Thailand. It shows your child has good manors and was taught properly. You are not living in the west so adaptation to other cultures should be in consideration.

I teach my child to have respect for her parents and her family members.

And my child shows more respect to her parents and family members than most Thai children.

But I teach my child to be selective in the people which she needs to respect.

If uncle "x" is constantly drunk, or uncle "y" likes to take my child constantly on his knees and touch her all around, then she should have no respect for these people and report this behavior to us.

I did read the story a few years ago of a karaoke dancer who was not friendly enough with a policemen and got her arm cut off. The policeman is still free and has never spend a day in jail because he is a policeman and she a karaoke singer.

If that respect is the kind you want to teach to your children, fine with me.

I dont.

Respect has to be earned, not teached or baught.

And for all the posters who think that it is a good thing to relay on your children at later age, if you make children only to have a cash cow when you are older and a good pension while she is made to sell her body to foreigners in Pattaya you have a few screws loose in your head.

I'm the one who is older, but I still support my child abroad now for 3 years because she lost her job and had 2 children to feed.

Luckely for her, she will finish this month a study which will give her a guaranteed state job and a good income for the rest of her live.

[JohnGotti]

The uneducated peoples of the world or at least the undeveloped world perpetuate poverty by having large families which they patently cannot afford, look no further than the Indian continent where large families were the norm amongst the poor to ensure the parents were looked after in old age.

a human being can do way more than a water buffalo. see, it just depends on goals. educated Chinese middle class Thais from Bangkok might have one child when the woman is 35, after the couple has finished school and saved money from work. they look at the child and think how much the child will cost, probably millions of baht. the Isaan family looks at the child as being more profitable. he will create more than he consumes and long term he will care for them and send them money every month after he leaves the home.

the isaan family is not acting illogically. they are not educated peoples so this is a way they know works to generate income. they would be WORSE OFF if they had no children.

[lioness]

sbk - good post.

In very general terms:

A lot of these situations come down to culture. In the Western culture we raise our children, do the best for them that we can, they finish their education and get on with their own lives to a large extent. When mum and dad get to retirement age there are pensions, superannuation funds ( well there was, before the crash ) and savings. Retirement for many gives them to freedom to travel and do all the things they couldn't do while they were working.

In Thailand, parents raise their children as best they can, many work at 2 or 3 jobs just to put their children through school, if the child gets into trouble the parents will bail them out, just about everything is done to help the children ( wether they deserve it or not ). They work as a family unit and it is accepted that the parents will be taken care of when they are no longer able to work, quite often aged parents will look after the grandchildren so that the parents are able to continue working, this is their input as many are past being able to do much physical employment. There is no pension plan for these people, they do not dream of overseas holidays and anything more than surviving from one day or week to the next.

Of course as in any culture when there is easy money around folks become lazy, it reminds me of the Australian natives, years ago many had small communities on the sheep stations etc, the men worked on the station and in return the entire family was fed and clothed and provided for, but no money changed hands. Then the do gooders came along and said they had to be paid, so the worker earned a wage, which wasn;t enough to cover the rest of the family who did nothing and suddenly familys of 10 or more had a single income earner, Then the government stepped in and gave them pensions, once they got pensions they couldn't for the most part see any reason to work, it was all downhill from there, drinking rights just about wiped out any self respect they had left. I am aware ( having worked with them for many years ) of whole communities that do nothing except drink and eat and wait for there next handout.

Many aboriginal families move in with relatives so you have quite a number in one house.

When I first came to Thailand I noticed that many families lived with relatives, and many sponged off them, it reminded me of the aboriginal culture, so I built my house with only one bedroom, I am a great believer in preventing a problem from happening and it has worked well, no room for the rellies. and everytime they ask for a loan I suggest they see the bank. I do however pay for schooling for my stepchildren and other basic requirements, but I do the shopping, I never ever provide cash. And I have to say the kids never ask for anything over and above, but occassionally I do give them some spending money, simply because they haven't asked or expected it.

[macb]

Why is there the need to downgrade Thailand's culture and families:

Is this the only country where these scenarios occur and lifestyles ? No I don't think so just on a different scale.

Look around the globe take a look at the country you came from!!

I can comment on the country I come from UK. Kids skipping off school to go glue sniffing or playing in Game shops. youths drawing on the Social because they are to idle to work, they get there money from the social then blow it in a night club or on drugs.

So why just criticise this country ?

[coalminer]

I've posted before on this family topic vein.....

If in your own life you have enjoyed the undoubted luxury of family support for almost everything you do.......if you have supported each other through financial hardship and emotional hardship.......if you have appreciated the sacrifices your parents made to clothe you, pay for your education.....the family bond is very strong.....

In Thailand....all over the world......

If you have no experience or understanding of such bonds......you have missed out on one of the most endearing, prolonged, emotionally rewarding experiences in life.........

In my humble family orientated opinion....

This whole "supporting your family" thing is falling apart like a mole hill.

I have seen the village of my family change from a village as you described to what it is now.

Where everey family lived before together with all family members supporting each other, the village evoluted to a village full of "Western style houses" where every family lives on their own.

Lots of elderly people left to their own destiny and send a choeck every now and then.

This whole system of "taking care of the family" is changing at a very fast rate, and if the country don't change the system, more misery will be seen everywhere with the elder people.

My own MIL has supported many children, her's and the children of her daughter's while they were earning money in the big city. Still, now that she is older, the only one who is looking after her and supporting her is my wife.

Family orientated opinion?

Lucky I have a very good pension to look after me ..............

[macb]

There are many Topics on this Forum al related to the family lifestyle in Thailand.

It would be nice for a change for someone to actually as I have in the past write something of interest about village life and families.

In my opinion if you can only write articles downgrading the Thai lifestyle surely it means individuals lack understanding of village life and how family ties work in this country.

[Heng]

It seems that a lot of folks are exposed to the type/group of parents + grandparents with no assets left after an entire lifetime. In other households, the later generations simply act more like fund and asset managers, no "sponging" is involved whatsoever. "Taking care of your folks" is nothing more dramatic than taking your folks to the supermarket, hospital and dentist from time to time, and making sure their home (or part of your home in some cases) is well maintained, consuming a minor amount of funds from the parents THEMSELVES combined with a minor amount of funds from the more able children of a family. The latter is hardly strange, no brainwashing involved, just simply calculate what your parents have given you and what you have given back. Chances are you've given back very little in comparison.

Parents of orphans and parents who take advantage of or abuse their children obviously deserve nothing in this system.

[BigSnake]

They are good MOM"s boys, because MOM has spoil them rotten by give them what ever they want/what she could while they were young and continue to do so, I see it day in and day out in my area, for sure the Thai women with good farangs husbands that take care of her and the lazy bar hopping sons. It a family thing, single mom bend over backward to take care of her good for nothing sons, and the rest of the family

[wackysleet]

If spongers is the topic than why did the op implies in his first 2 paragraph that taking care of family is Stupid? Or did you misread that part?

Point out where I wrote that "all Thais are paragons of virtue" ..... I wrote in reference to "Asian" cultures vs western belief or have you not noticed the difference while visiting/living in Asia?

For a start I have lived in the Kingdom for 20yrs, and no I did not misread your underlined quote but I did unlike you it would appear realise that english is apparently not his mother tongue by the way he constructs his sentences and made allowances for it and read the whole post to understand his own views on the topic, not yours or anyone else to which he is fully entitled to express.

If you read my second paragragh properly you will note that I did not quote or even imply that you said they were all paragons of virtue, I am saying that they are not and by the way so are a lot of other posters.

[coalminer]

it would appear realise that english is apparently not his mother tongue by the way he constructs his sentences and made allowances for it and read the whole post to understand his own views on the topic, not yours or anyone else to which he is fully entitled to express.

Thanks

[wackysleet]

it would appear realise that english is apparently not his mother tongue by the way he constructs his sentences and made allowances for it and read the whole post to understand his own views on the topic, not yours or anyone else to which he is fully entitled to express.

Thanks

No problem mate .

[coalminer]

In my opinion if you can only write articles downgrading the Thai lifestyle surely it means individuals lack understanding of village life and how family ties work in this country.

You are right.

Stop writing negative articles downgrading Thaksin and his family.

Stop writing negative articles about the "red shirts".

Stop writing "healthy critics" on anything.

The "Thai lifestyle" is not different to the lifestyle in my country merely a century ago.

Lots of farmer families, living all in 1 house and helping in the farm to emable their children to go to a "rudimentary" school and give the elder family members TRUE support by halping them to carry out daily tasks which they were not able to do anymore.

But in merely a century, people left the farming family businness to go to study and work in the city.

The "village" dried out and was left with only elder and disabled people which received a money check from time to time to ease the mind of the children which were haveing now a much better life than they could ever have in the farm in the village.

The children came to visit the parents a few times a year and brought with them radio's, televisions, rice cookers, etc. Things that were used in "good homes" in the city. Not realising that the use of these things was increasing the electricity and water bills significantly and put their elders in more misery as they were before. At the end, the country needed to do something and "invented" the pension and care for the elderly by using the tax money of these children. And that is the system we see now. Almost no farmers anymore. Almost no big families supporting each other anymore. Everybody living in their own house, working with 2 parents to keep up with their lifestyle and sending the children to a care center during working time.

Thailand, more particularly Issaan, is evolving the same way.

If you did not see that, you live with your eyes closed.

Don't try to moralise everybody with your (lack of) knowledge about Thailand and Issaan and quenching every look on the evolution which doesn't fit yours.

[wackysleet]

In my opinion if you can only write articles downgrading the Thai lifestyle surely it means individuals lack understanding of village life and how family ties work in this country.

You of course have every right to your opinion just the same as coalminer, the fact of the matter is that people all over the world are basically the same inside irrespective of their culture, some people steal, cheat, lie, or even murder, and Thailand is no different if you think it is then you have your head in the sand, some years ago I never saw fat thai kids now I see them all the time same as Europe times are changing here whether you like it or not, give it another ten yrs or so and quite likely you will see the break up of a lot of traditional thai culture.

My own understanding of the original post was the hypocrisy being shown by some thais, praising their son/daughter for quite rightly in my opinion of helping the parents whilst ignoring the fact that sometimes others within the family could share the load but would rather spend their money on other things and very little or nothing being said about it, of course it could be that the parents wont say anything because they may lose face with the neighbours, the old saying springs to mind, "you can choose your friends but not your family".