Teachers Forced To Take Language Tests

[george]

Teachers forced to take language tests

Claim poor Thai standard not their fault

NAKHON SI THAMMARAT: -- A surprise test of their knowledge has enraged many Thai-language teachers in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

"We will stage a protest so that the top education officials look back on their policies too," a teacher said on condition of anonymity.

"We major in other subjects but due to the shortage of teaching staff, the Education Ministry has required us to teach the Thai language".

This teacher has taught Thai in the southern province for years. She and colleagues teaching the same subject were forced to take the test designed to assess their knowledge of Thai.

The Office of Basic Education Commission (Obec) initiated it after seeing a significant drop in children's Thai-language performance.

"It's unfair to pass the blame on to teachers alone," the same teacher said, "Why doesn't Obec assign teachers to teach subjects they have been well versed in?"

She said by assigning the right subjects to the right teachers, children would benefit.

"Testing the teachers' knowledge in a subject they are not good at is not the right solution," she insisted.

According to the Office of Nakhon Si Thammarat's Educational Service Area 2, at least four per cent of students could neither read nor write Thai.

"So, Obec has required Thai-language teachers to take a test. Their scores will reflect what needs to be included in a project to enhance teachers' skills," the office's director Paiboon Pongtassana said.

He said the test should not cause any problem to the teachers.

"Perhaps, there is some misunderstanding," Paiboon said in response to reports many Thai-language teachers felt their performance would look bad, just because they could not perform well in this test.

Wanchai Pongsa, who heads the Office of Nakhon Si Thammarat's Educational Service Area 1, said hundreds of teachers were required to sit the Thai-language test.

"This is a procedure in our human-resource development plan," he added.

-- The Nation 2009-06-24

[endure]

Can someone explain to me why any but a small minority of 60 million Thais should be required to speak English in a country whose primary language is THAI THAI THAI??? other than for the convenience of expat English speakers?

It seems strange that we have this constant whining about the fact that those dratted Thais can't speak ENGLISH. Why shouldn't they be fluent in French or Italian or Spanish?

Edited June 24, 2009 by endure

[sbk]

Ok, first off the issue here is Thai teachers teaching the THAI language. Not English. Secondly, and this I find sad and rather amazing is the quote everyone apparently either missed or chose to ignore:

"We major in other subjects but due to the shortage of teaching staff, the Education Ministry has required us to teach the Thai language".

so, teachers are being forced to teach subjects in which they have no qualifications???

[cognos]

Ok, first off the issue here is Thai teachers teaching the THAI language. Not English. Secondly, and this I find sad and rather amazing is the quote everyone apparently either missed or chose to ignore:

"We major in other subjects but due to the shortage of teaching staff, the Education Ministry has required us to teach the Thai language".

so, teachers are being forced to teach subjects in which they have no qualifications???

It happens in Canada too. Lots of teachers, especially beginning teachers get a "dog's breakfast" of subects to teach outside their area of expertice..generally only in related areas like an english teacher doing social studies for example, or a math teacher doing science. As they get seniority, they get into their area of expertise. I cannot comment on the situation vis a vis Thais teaching thai language with no expertise, so I would guess that the situation may be similar to Canada..or maybe not..probably not..I know a young Thai teacher ( relative of my wife ) and will ask about this siuation out of curiosity when I am in Phuket ( flying there in 3 days from farang land)

[Loaded]

The OP is about Thai Thai-language teachers.

The majority of posts are people who have read the op (I guess) commenting on the poor standard of English taught in Thailand.

I suggest these posters take some English lessons with the East Europeans who are teaching their kids. It may improve their English reading comprehension skills.

[BOOKEMDANO]

[quote

"We major in other subjects but due to the shortage of teaching staff, the Education Ministry has required us to teach the Thai language".

This teacher has taught Thai in the southern province for years. She and colleagues teaching the same subject were forced to take the test designed to assess their knowledge of Thai.

they could not perform well in this test.

This doesn't make to much sence. Even without the proper grounded knowledge of the Thai subject like you would get studying at university level, these teachers are still native speakers aren't they ? A language which they have been speaking and surrounded by, practicaly their whole lives!! Also to mention is the fact that they have been teaching this subject for years according to this report. This would almost certainly involve marking students assignments, preparing lesson plans and facilitating the English language on a daily basis for the students.

Somebody said that 99% of all native English speakers would 'fail miserably' given this test. To understand what exactly this test comprised of that the Thai teachers took is not known. But i would guess its a basic structure test of multiple choice answers that most them proberly cheated on anyway. LOL, can you picture this, a line of aged Thai teachers sitting an actual examination process. "no talking, pens down and when you have finished bring your papers to the front and leave quietly" I'm sure their was a little head turning or droping of pens going on in these rooms.

Going back to the quote made about 99% of foreign teachers also failing a similar test in their own native language, i'm not so sure those figures would be quite so high. Maybe it's true if asked to explain the difference between an oxymoron and a moron many would stumble. But in their defence i would say, the fact they are native speakers and they (if we use the example of the Thai teacher who has taught for years) taught a subject for many years, even if it wasn't their primary field of study, many would have a better knowledge than most and do quite well at this test. If they didn't, then they really are, intelligent fools

[BigSnake]

Ok, bring the Teacher up to speed alright in my view, now what do you do about parents that expect the school system and the teachers to raise their children, and these same parents are ready to kill if school/teacher try to imply a little discipline to these unruled kids Bottom line>Parents want to give their responsible to the teachers but they keep the authority. SAD

[PeaceBlondie]

We just had a long thread on farang teaching THAI language to farang. Even the Thai language forum moderators agreed that some well-trained farang could teach Thai to farang better than many Thai teachers. I suspect that the native Thais are not taught how to teach Thai well, even with a uni degree majoring in Thai.

[sriracha john]

Ok, first off the issue here is Thai teachers teaching the THAI language. Not English. Secondly, and this I find sad and rather amazing is the quote everyone apparently either missed or chose to ignore:

"We major in other subjects but due to the shortage of teaching staff, the Education Ministry has required us to teach the Thai language".

so, teachers are being forced to teach subjects in which they have no qualifications???

It's my understanding that amongst Thai teaching profession that those that might normally fail at most other subjects in university, end up majoring in Thai language. Sort of like the old Western education line about "Teachers that can't teach, teach P.E." (physical education) to borrow a line of Jack Black's from the movie, School of Rock.

Thus it is further my understanding that amongst the Thai teaching profession, those that teach Thai are looked down upon by other teachers... and probably accounts for the dearth of those Thai teachers that willingly would teach Thai.

Edited June 25, 2009 by sriracha john

[sbk]

Once again, this topic is about the teachers teaching THAI language. NOT ENGLISH.

I hate to shout, but I think this is an important point.

[futureexpat]

Once again, this topic is about the teachers teaching THAI language. NOT ENGLISH.

I hate to shout, but I think this is an important point.

Thank you, SBK. Although we usually hear about the poor quality of English teaching in Thailand, I've heard other reports that Thai language skills were on the decline. I thought this would be an interesting thread but most of the content is the same stuff I've read a million times about English in Thailand, the international community, etc.

I hope the thread gets back on track because I'd like to read more about this.

[sbk]

A little digression? Are you serious? Re-read the entire thread and then try using the phrase "a little digression"

[Mosha]

I have a Thai fiend and she is a teacher. She complains about having teach art when she can't paint or draw.

[Garry]

Apart from his normal (sic!) school instuction work, I am also home schooling my stepson as over the past 9 years of his developement since pre-school, is that some of the teachers are very lacking in their ability to teach basic english, thai (my wife tells me his thai is being taught bad) and mathematics. I'm teaching my stepson mental agility and not to rely soley on calculators and to show that there are easier ways to do calculations in his head, rather than go through some banal / outdated rule of dogma which takes up more time that the actual task at hand. It took me awhile to convince him that there are easier ways to approach a problem. Don't get me wrong I still push that he still show respect for his teachers, but don't be afraid to question and accept that what is being teached to him is not always the best or correct way.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Garry

[Valentine]

The thread may be about the standard of Thai teaching but one can infer from this that other teaching skills are sorely lacking such as encouraging students to think for themselves & actually question what they are taught. The fact is that a large number of schoolchildren have to take extra classes in order to make the grade, whether it be in Thai, English, Mathematics or whatever. Why all of these skills cannot be attained in regular classes along with homework has always left me wondeirng about the teaching standards.

12 years of compulsory education can become fairly meaningless when during those years everything you learn is by rote & all exams are multi choice questions. On the other hand teachers who inspire & make you want to learn are rare in any country.

[ozzieovaseas]

I cant believe Mr MacWalen hasnt arrived on the scene yet!!!

[PeaceBlondie]

Counting the famous book by Benjawan, and two Thais with uni degrees in teaching Thai, I found nearly total incompetence. Your mileage may vary, but I worked with Thai teachers of foreign language who complained about the teaching of Thai to Thai students.

[animatic]

The bottom line is Teachers of Thai in Thailand are looked down on by other teachers.

Hence teaching Thai equates to a loss of face... ain't that a kick in the gonads!

The national language is a gulag for the incompetant teachers in the TEACHERS opinions...

A sad sad state of affairs.

Our newly adopted daughter is studying English and Thai in a international school,

mostly to avoid the stultifying regimentation of the classic Thai schools, but also because

this school values it's THAI LANGUAGE teacher highly. She is respected by all the teachers

as a valuable tool for the children to learn to live within the Thai culture and it's language.

There are several local Thai children in this school also, benefiting from it's general

positive discipline style and focus on developing each child based on that child's aptitude

and needs, explains the Thais educating there children there also.

[Royale]

Once again, this topic is about the teachers teaching THAI language. NOT ENGLISH.

I hate to shout, but I think this is an important point.

I'd hate to have your job SBK, it must do your head in!!

I had a friend who wanted to send his girlfriend to learn English at a local language school. He was told after her first lesson that there was no way they could help her, "she doesn't even know Thai".

[Bagwan]

Who decides what is the Thai language standard? My understanding is that there are several different dialects and off shoots of the base Thai language. We also have those from Esan where I believe that Khmer is in general use; in other parts of LoS Lao may be heard. I am told that those from the South who speak Thai would be unintelligible in Chang Mai.

Given the cacophony of sound issuing from Thai schools is it any wonder that standards of education are so low? It is very difficult to learn anything when your mouth is open instead of one's ears. It seems to me that the teachers exercise very little or no control over their charges.

Some years ago I paid 16K baht, the annual fee, so that my wife's daughter could attend what I was assured was the best school for girls in Pattaya. A couple of months into the school year she asked for assistance with her homework. She had not properly grasped the method of calculating the cubed root of a number. Who the **** needs to know that at the age of 15 years? How would that enrich her life or assist her in making a decent living? I am not a fan of calculators but in this instance I totally accept their use. I asked a few questions about what else she was learning and looked through her exercise books. I asked her about percentages and received a blank look in return. A few days later I confronted the old biddy with Hitlerite tendencies who rejoiced in being the Headmistress of the school and asked her why on earth wasn't the percentage system taught. It was, and is, in regular use in trade and commerce and would be most useful. I was asked what the schools curriculum had to do with me. Addressing her as Rear Admiral (she was in uniform with all the trimmings and I knew she hated me calling her that), I reminded her that I had a parental responsibility towards the girl and I also wanted full value for my money. She stormed off and slammed the door to her office. If it wasn't imperative that our girl acquired the little bits of paper and official stamps required to enter further education I would have withdrawn her from school and taught her myself.

I note that many who comment on the local standard of English teaching in their posts could well profit from returning to school themselves. Is it not ironic that some of those complaining are prone to very basic errors in both spelling and puncuation? Physician heal thyself?

[wolf5370]

My daughters' Thai lessons are basically dot-to-dot drawings of Thai characters for them to over-draw - and a chant of Gor Gai-Kor Kai-Kor Kwaht-etc with no understanding of the content of what the chant is about. My youngest (8) thought 'Gor Gai' was Thai for chicken, rather than the name/monikor for the first consonant. This is at a private school (they have English as their primary language and are learning Thai as a foreign language).

My eldest (10) had a science test. A picture of a human eye blown up and labelled: pupil, iris, lens, etc. All the kids were given a photocopy of the test with the answers written in by a girl from a previous year. It was marked 100% correct. The lens was labelled iris and vice-verce, makes you wonder how many other kids had been trained wrong from this test paper?

[sbk]

To those who do know teachers, several posters have said that it is considered the "bottom of the barrel" as far as subjects go. Why? Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? Not as glamorous as english or something else?

Also, for those who know teachers, how common is it for teachers to be assigned to teach subjects in which they have no experience or education?

[WeeGB]

Has anyone seen the English text books they use at Thai schools?

They are full of spelling mistakes, bad grammar and frequently contain archaic words.

Some of the English exercises for the kids are are a disgrace and are an abortion of the English language.

And others contain words that are only used by university students when writing a PHD thesis.

And as none of the teachers have even a basic knowledge of Englsih, the vicious circle is perpetuated.

The ruling elite know very well that the English standard in Thai schools is pretty abysmal, but they just don't care. The more ignorant the general populace is, the better for them. Without a working knowledge of Englsih, they cannot read foreign books, magazines and newspapers, and cannot learn on the internet what is going on in the outside world, and are more likely to believe the lies told to them by the government and believe that everything bad that happens here is the fault of foreigners.

The kids in Cambodia speak much better English than kids who go to regular schools (i.e not privileged schools) in Thailand, and Cambodia is one of the poorest countries in the world. One of the reasons is that there are no Cambodian text books, so they have to read English before they can even start to learn.

In Thailand, they have to learn from BS books in Thai that lie about Thai history, teach very little, and are written by Thais, most of whom are unqualified for the task.

Now bash me. This is one of my pet beefs.

And I'm not bashing the Thais - I'm bashing the corrupt few who still control this country and its people.

I had that with a g/f who failed her English Exam 3 times. When I saw the questions and the answers that were given to the questions I was baffled many times and had to correct the questions and answers too.

Next time around when she took the exam she got 77% and passed. Pleased as punch she was able to move onto a computer course. Last I heard she had got herself a better job working in an office of a good company and with better pay.

It is a great shame that the books they are using are not up to standard in the first place. How many other students fail because of this? Surely it would be a problem that is easy enough to rectify?

When I first came to Thailand, many years ago, I offered to help my nephews and nieces with their schoolwork. The English textbook they were using was from Mexico. It contained many spelling mistakes, atrocious grammatical errors, and was totally useless as a learning aid. I made the mistake of correcting the mistakes in the childrens' homework, which they then took to school, and pointed out to their teachers. Big mistake, a huge loss of face for the teachers, to be shown that they were wrong. Result - from that day on, the kids always got top marks for their English homework, even when it was obviously wrong.

Back to the topic. In order to have the Thai language taught properly, it must be given priority over other subjects. For without a good knowledge of their own language, how can students ever make progress in other subjects? It may be that the authorities are trying to achieve this, by assessing the skills of the current teaching staff, if so, then I hope they can turn the current sad state of affairs around.

As for those complaining about the behaviour of Thai students, I assume that this is in the big cities. Certainly where I live the students are extremely well behaved. In fact my sister in law, who teaches primary school children, has won several awards for the discipline in her classes.

I certainly hope that Thailand can sort out it's educational system in the near future, because if they don't then I really fear for the future of this country. I think a lot of the problems in education are caused by loss of face, when the priority should be in correcting the mistakes of the past, in order to give future students a quality, well rounded education. To do this quality Thai language teachers are a necessity.

[sriracha john]

To those who do know teachers, several posters have said that it is considered the "bottom of the barrel" as far as subjects go. Why? Does anyone know the reasoning behind this? Not as glamorous as english or something else?

Amongst the teachers I know... I gather it's from the thought that "every Thai knows Thai" (language)... and thus could be done by even the worst teacher. Sort of like the Western education analogy I used earlier in that they view P.E. as, "it's so easy even a doorknob could teach it."

Also, for those who know teachers, how common is it for teachers to be assigned to teach subjects in which they have no experience or education?

IMHO, it's quite common... at the government school I worked at previously, it seemed almost none of the teachers were teaching subjects that they had majored in at university.

I'd also mention that majoring in a subject is certainly no guarantee of comprehension. Almost every "English major" university grad I've met struggles tremendously after even just, "Hello, how are you"?

Edited June 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[Bagwan]

Back to the topic. In order to have the Thai language taught properly, it must be given priority over other subjects. For without a good knowledge of their own language, how can students ever make progress in other subjects? It may be that the authorities are trying to achieve this, by assessing the skills of the current teaching staff, if so, then I hope they can turn the current sad state of affairs around.

I certainly hope that Thailand can sort out it's educational system in the near future, because if they don't then I really fear for the future of this country. I think a lot of the problems in education are caused by loss of face, when the priority should be in correcting the mistakes of the past, in order to give future students a quality, well rounded education. To do this quality Thai language teachers are a necessity.

Indulge me please while I take a flight of fancy. Without the knowledge to understand and implement higher technology let alone create anything, wouldn't this mean Thailand recruiting even more farangs and other foreigners? Wouldn't these foreign devils expect big bucks to come to a third world country? Wouldn't most insist in being paid in a hard offshore currency?

Would this create a situation where the visitors have to import hard currency thereby adding to the country's foreign currency reserves, would require superior quality accomodation currently standing empty or the building of which has been suspended, keep the tills of hotels and shops and other businesses busy?

Just a crazy notion with holes in it that I can see as I type, but then you have to factor in the Thai mentality. Greedy eyes will caress new projects that can be skimmed and there will be more rich foreigners to extract from.

Thais, given their nationalistic tendency, will have further material with which they can lord it over nearby countries conveniently forgetting that European expertise and borrowed money built the Skytrain. Without these ingredients there wouldn't be any trains in the sky; they would be plenty of pie though.

The quote above points the way to go. His Majesty wisely counsels self sufficiency. Perhaps he has the foresight to see that the alternative is a 21st century version of colonisation. Tee us off Somjai and there'll be no more modernisation for you.

[jonclark]

Reading this reminds me of a new year party which an old school of mine held. All the teachers where there and it was very thai and highly enjoyable event , karaoke, whiskey, prize raffle and lots of fun.

But during the course of the evening a number of the staff and some of their kids got on stage and took part in a game. The basic rules were the this.

Everyone stood in a line facing the audience

They had to sound off every alternate letter of the Thai alphabet (in English this would be a , c, e, g etc.)

If they said the wrong letter - they sat down. The winner was the last one standing and won a prize

Pretty simple

By the end of the first round about 80% of the teachers had been knocked out. The game was one won by an 8 year old son of the art teacher.

I was kinda shocked that teachers were so weak in the basic of their own alphabet - Maybe the test should focus on the Thai language and English language

I also always think it's interesting, as a teacher, to see the pass rate for entrance tests for Thai and English. Surprisingly they are both very close around 35%. A figure which in its self is pretty poor.

[Ijustwannateach]

I don't have the impression at my school (or other schools at which I have worked) that the Thai department is particularly 'low-status'- in fact, some of the most respected (and feared) teachers of the school are in that department. So I can't confirm the "teachers of Thai are looked down on" idea.

I do have the impression that the Thai departments at various schools may be a bit behind the times in terms of educational philosophies and maintaining connections with contemporary culture- er, "old-fashioned" might sum it up. There's a lot of rote learning and a fair bit of concentration on 'Thai in the good old days,' in much the same spirit that Shakespeare has hung on in most of the English-speaking world in the English subjects there. Nothing wrong with that in principle, but perhaps it's a matter of balance, and even possibly a minor language war between the public and the Academy such as seems to have been going on in France for sometime regarding ownership of the language. In such a situation, the public will always eventually win (the Ministry of Culture should take notes here as well).

In my own experience studying Thai, I have focussed on more colloquial forms and conversational uses so far- as suits someone who needs the language for everyday purposes- and I feel it is telling that most of the Thai teachers I have encountered in language schools are much younger, less "expert" types who nonetheless are a bit more socially attuned to the present day. If I'm ever to the level where I could actually consider wanting to read Thai classics, I'd *have* to seek out one of the Thai high school teacher types, though.

Interestingly, just as I found when teaching English that foreign students of English will memorise systems much more than native speakers, who have simply internalised everything, in studying Thai my teacher pointed out that the technical groupings of consonants, vowels, etc., were not what Thai kids in school would learn, because they are presumed to have internalised such things (or that they will do so through rote learning). Perhaps more of this self-conscious systemisation would help the Thai students of Thai as well if it were more widely practiced, but I am no where near proficient enough to judge with any certainty.

In Japan similar tensions seemed to exist, except that even the language school teachers of Japanese would teach the stilted, formal versions of the language- to the point where for awhile I could speak and be understood but not understand what anyone *else* outside my class was saying, because they were all speaking much more casually!

It *would* be rather nice to have more topical posts on this matter from people who actually know school teachers of Thai. I concur with SBK that this is NOT a thread about English teaching (we have those far too frequently anyway). If English-teaching commentary continues, I will split the thread and send the English-teaching posts to a new thread in the teacher's forum.

(P.S. To comment on one of the digressions: the only way for Thais to do widespread trade and international business is to be able to speak English, because most people outside this place aren't going to learn Thai for that purpose- and such jobs along with tourism (which is also a kind of trade) are a major sector of the economy here and one of the few through which someone economically disadvantaged can actually achieve a higher standard of living). This is important even in dealing with non-native-speaking countries like Japan.

[Mobi]

Mobi, I am not going to overgeneralize and say that your thoughts are way off base because that is an argument I couldn't defend. However, there are attempts by some of the "ruling elite" to change this. I do know that some of the local charitable organizations (Rotary etc.) have been working with Thammasart University and corporate sponsors to support training programs in English for Thai teachers who teach English in the provinces. In addition, there is follow up with teachers who previously attended the courses.

I know, you might say it is a drop in the bucket, but it is a start and has been going on for several years and it will continue, as some of the people working in this program are very much part of the ruling elite. The hope, of course, is for the government to get involved, but since we can't keep a government in place for more than a year, that doesn't appear likely.

That is good to know OMR, and long may the initiative prosper and grow.

I keep banging on about Cambodia, because it is truly amazing what they achieved there in such a short time. It wasn't so long ago that all they could speak was Cambodian and French. But of course all those who spoke French are now dead.

Not only do so many speak English, but the quality is good, the grammar and vocabulary really take you aback after listening to "Thaiglish" for so many years.

A concerted effort by all concerned and in 10 years time the standard of English in Thailand would improve dramatically, and I really don't believe it would cost that much. And think of the hidden benefits of having a new generation who can properly take their places in the international business community, and converse on the world stage as equals.

But do the ruling elite really want it?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Mobi

[retdson]

The thread may be about the standard of Thai teaching but one can infer from this that other teaching skills are sorely lacking such as encouraging students to think for themselves & actually question what they are taught. The fact is that a large number of schoolchildren have to take extra classes in order to make the grade, whether it be in Thai, English, Mathematics or whatever. Why all of these skills cannot be attained in regular classes along with homework has always left me wondeirng about the teaching standards.

It boils down to pay levels. The starting salary for a teacher in Thailand is (or was until recently) about 4,000baht a month. Even after 8 years the average teacher doesn't have 4 zeros on the end of his/her monthly paycheck. The only way they can make a living wage is to teach half the curriculum in the classroom, and the other half through the medium of your 'extra classes' which are charged for. (usually at one the ubiquitous crammer schools).

[PeaceBlondie]

We have countless discussions about learning/teaching English, Flemish, Tlingit.

This is about Thai teachers teaching Thai. Topic split. Non Thai posts are now at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Teaching-Eng...it-t276268.html