Red-shirts To Hold Mass Rally On Saturday

[rixalex]

Sorry, but NO to appointed representatives.

Yep, a "no" from me too. One of those ideas that looks great on paper, but putting it into practice would be impossible without abuses. Intentions might be good to begin with, but as we all know, power corrupts, and ten times faster when you remove the ballot box.

[rixalex]

It goes on and on because the present government really does not have a mandate.

Nope that's not it.

If the Democrats called an election tomorrow and won with a landslide, there would still be reds taking to the streets.

Don't be fooled into thinking this is a group brought together by a collective belief in certain upstanding political values and principles; rather it's a group bought together by one rich man and his few remaining friends of power, who having messed the country up and been kicked out, want the chance to come back, be whitewashed of all charges against them, and able to dip their snouts back in the trough for another feeding.

Everyone claimed that he is right . Only The one in power can claim that he is right.

Eh??? Come again?

[justanothercybertosser]

The sad truth is the reds and Thaksin can and never will be separated. They are inextricably linked for two main reasons. One is that he provides the driving force, both financial and otherwise. Two is that for the majority of reds he remains a hero. Sad but true.

It is illusional that the Reds can disassociate themselves from Thaksin. And that is mostly the fault of the Democrats as they have never managed to do anything of substance to improve the live of the millions of rural Thais. As long as they plonker their way around, Thaksin will stay the Prime Minister who has done more than any other politicians for those sectors of society.

If there would not have been a military coup - very possibly TRT would have collapsed, many of Thaksin's supporters would have realized themselves that they ought to have been given more than Thaksin was giving them, and the democrats would have had time to get their shit together.

As things are now - the only hero is a very faulty man, the one eyed under under the blind.

I do disagree though with one poster's comment that Thailand is in the process to turn into a failed state. Thailand is in the process of working out necessary social conflicts, which one day will lead to development. Then both Red and Yellow will be a thing of the past.

Edited June 26, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Siripon]

He obviously has no real interest in the needs of the people who support him, which is why I think it is sad that they continue to support him. If they dropped him and separated themselves from him and his cronies, I think they would more clearly be seen as the neo-socialist alternative, and they would then get the grassroots support they seek. This is where the people of the reds confuse me, they have almost opposite ideological goals from their leaders.

Agree with most of your post Meridian, and especially the bit above. I've said many times that were the reds to completely disassociate themselves from this convicted criminal and stop fighting his battles, overnight their credibility would soar. As it is, how can they seriously be talking about any belief in democracy, of free and fair elections, of a government that cares about the working classes, when the next minute they are talking about changing laws to bring back a man who did nothing during his time in power to further any of those causes.

The sad truth is the reds and Thaksin can and never will be separated. They are inextricably linked for two main reasons. One is that he provides the driving force, both financial and otherwise. Two is that for the majority of reds he remains a hero. Sad but true.

Absolutely right.

I wonder what the reds think about the possible overtones Suthep may have made for Pheua Thai to join the Democrats.

According to some sources, Suthep was spotted in Cambodia talking to Thaksin a while back.

[Plus]

The new politics proposal is to let representatives of professional/social groups a guaranteed place in parliament.

Okay, perhaps I should have said representational democracy. While an occupational constituency group in parliament is an interesting idea, it will merely lead to the replacement of one type of "feudal lord" for another. It seems to give a carte blanche to any group rich enough to buy their way into those positions, or, is a way for one group to ensure proper succession when the time comes. Neither does much for the voice of the people, but continues the idea of the Pu Yai dictating what will happen.

Maybe, but there's another point here - geographical representation is abused because of mismatch of intentions - people elect local politicians to serve their local needs, but those politicians then go to Bangkok and serve interests of big national parties, so they can trade their parliament votes for funds.

And another one - MPs are elected locally but go to Bangkok to work on national issues that have nothing to do with their constituencies. Instead they decide fates of industries, social and religious groups that are not even represented!

Basically - people at the voting booths are not stakeholders in government or parliament work, they don't vote for national policies and agendas (apart from 20% of MPs on party lists).

And even if they wanted to have a say in how this or that ministry is run, as they might feel directly involved as rice traders or auto part makers, they can't - they can't vote for separate ministries, only for the whole package. Then it's up to party quotas and coalition demands, and only the PM has a final say on which party gets what ministry, regardless of how people voted.

That's just a recipe for corruption - local politicians trading votes for budgets and positions, with no representation for anyone.

Occupational representatives, by comparison, would be direct stakeholders protecting interests of the groups that sent them. Less opportunity for corruption, MP and Cabinet positions trading.

It's not important HOW representatives get to power, it's important that they DO get the power, one way or another.

Are you sure? I think history tells us otherwise. I think it is important to know WHO will get the power

Who? Representatives of social/professional groups. That's who should be in parliament according to New politics.

Not bureaucrats and not military, despite what reds lead us to believe.

What are they going to do with their power? Protect the interests of social/professional groups? Since that's who they will be answerable to, instead of bit party bosses and local pooyais who invested in their election campaigns.

[Meridian007]

If there would not have been a military coup - very possibly TRT would have collapsed, many of Thaksin's supporters would have realized themselves that they ought to have been given more than Thaksin was giving them, and the democrats would have had time to get their shit together.

As things are now - the only hero is a very faulty man, the one eyed under under the blind.

I do disagree though with one poster's comment that Thailand is in the process to turn into a failed state. Thailand is in the process of working out necessary social conflicts, which one day will lead to development. Then both Red and Yellow will be a thing of the past.

On your last paragraph, I truly and sincerely hope you are proven correct. If this "tit-for-tat" game continues though, there won't be much state left for development.

As to the other, I've argued with Thai friends about what might have happened if the coup hadn't happened, and while I agree that TRT was in the process of collapsing, I'm not sure things would have happened as you say.

On the one hand, I think the people were becoming disillusioned with Thaksin, even though he had support in Issan I think there was a good chance of a violent coup in Bangkok. Would that have disgraced him instead of making him the martyr that he became after the military coup? I don't know.

On the other hand, he was well on his way to removing obstacles to his power in government. This, along with his attitudes expressed towards certain un-namable groups, and gaffes involving visiting monarchs, showed that Thaksin did not see himself as being merely PM of Thailand, and I believe he had his sights on much more, if he had been given the chance.

All of this is moot, as are all "What if..?" statements, but I think it shows some of the mentality behind the man.

I think the majority of Thai people don't want to think about any of this anymore, they are bored with it, and just want to get on with their lives. This is dangerous in that even government collapse doesn't phase them anymore. If you look at that along with the fact that most Thais haven't had faith in their government for years now, it paints a dire picture for the future. So again I say, I hope you right, and that this is just a process towards development.

[Plus]

I don't get it how people in one post can say that Thaksin still remains the favourite PM and then in the next breath that his party would have lost elections if there was no coup.

>>

As for failed state - Thailand was on verge of civil war, should April revolution have succeded. Now the country is pretty much united against reds (and military coups, too), but those alleged social conflicts are nowhere near being resolved.

They are not even properly identified yet, as leftis propaganda from post-coup days failed to take any root. The fight is not urban vs rural, or poor vs rich. Now new divides must be found in order to heal them.

[Meridian007]

Maybe, but there's another point here - geographical representation is abused because of mismatch of intentions - people elect local politicians to serve their local needs, but those politicians then go to Bangkok and serve interests of big national parties, so they can trade their parliament votes for funds.

And another one - MPs are elected locally but go to Bangkok to work on national issues that have nothing to do with their constituencies. Instead they decide fates of industries, social and religious groups that are not even represented!

Basically - people at the voting booths are not stakeholders in government or parliament work, they don't vote for national policies and agendas (apart from 20% of MPs on party lists).

I believe that is the job of the senate, half of them are appointed but are not allowed to be partisan. Therefore they could be used for social/professional groups (without any political ties), but they don't have a great deal of legislative power, they are there to advise and lobby.

Adding appointed seats to the legislative branch is where I think we all have a problem. Ideally, that is where people are elected to parliament based on party ideology, so while they are voted for locally, the voters should have a clear idea of the party policies they are voting for, so they can therefore vote for issues as well as leaders.

Then, for contentious issues, there are always polls. This way the voters are directly influencing legislation regardless of party ideology.

In this way, you keep the legislative branch as the purely representational arm of the government.

Does this work? Is it without corruption? Sadly, no, but I don't think the solution is to appoint legislative seats. I think there needs to be clear policy (and even ideology) stances taken by the parties, so that the people know WHAT as well as WHO they are voting for. Along with the assurance that they can push for a poll when the issue crosses party lines.

Occupational representatives, by comparison, would be direct stakeholders protecting interests of the groups that sent them. Less opportunity for corruption, MP and Cabinet positions trading.

Actually I think that is the exact recipe for corruption. It might be more transparent, but will these appointees be accountable to the people? How do you absolve problems of minority opinions being dominant? They aren't voted in by the people, the individuals aren't able to be removed and replaced by the people, whither democracy?

Who? Representatives of social/professional groups. That's who should be in parliament according to New politics.

Not bureaucrats and not military, despite what reds lead us to believe.

What are they going to do with their power? Protect the interests of social/professional groups? Since that's who they will be answerable to, instead of bit party bosses and local pooyais who invested in their election campaigns.

Okay, by WHO I mean the individual. If the person is appointed, you can be sure that they will promote their company's interests. Those interests might coincide with the population majority's, but what if it doesn't? If they are restricted by election then they have no choice but to at least be influenced by the will of the voters.

Again, this is where internationally legitimate elections come in. If the people are shown what their options are before the elections, and the elections are monitored to remove corruption, the people have their voice in government, and the government has the power to act. There are global organizations that can be trusted to be non-partisan, who will come in to educate and monitor. Sure, Thailand wouldn't trust one from the US or China, but maybe Finland, Sweden, or Canada?

********Edited to add:*********

I don't get it how people in one post can say that Thaksin still remains the favourite PM and then in the next breath that his party would have lost elections if there was no coup.

Huh? I never said he was the favourite PM, he just has a lot of support in Issan. I also didn't say anything about elections, but he might have seized greater power than he had. Maybe you were referring to someone else's post?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Meridian007

[Plus]

I believe that is the job of the senate, half of them are appointed but are not allowed to be partisan.

That's one possible solution - one chamber for professionals, one chamber for geograhical reps.

will these appointees be accountable to the people?

They are supposed to be put forward by professional groups, so they are accountable before their peers. The way I saw it - there are several candidates put forward and some bureaucratic panel choosed who's going to be appointed.

As I said - it's the easiest workable solution before complete electoral system within professional groups is established.

As for bureaucrats - if there are only three candidates and they are all farmers, you can't really make a wrong choice, can you? You'll always end up with a farmer, and he might not even come back if he doesn't please "Crop growing assossiation" that nominated him. Imagine going through hundreds of positions in a short space - no time to make sweetheart deals.

As for ideology - it's all nice, but the reality is that there are no ideological differences between parties in Thailand, and so there's no big deal if the number of ideologically elected MPs is reduced (from what? zero?).

>>>

What about a mix of nationally elected MPs with professionally elected MPs to counterbalance interests of public in general and professional interests, or Senate and Lower House mix, and more independence and guaranteed budgets for locally elected guys so they don't have to beg for money from party owners?

[justanothercybertosser]

If this idiocy continues, we might one day see people like Newin or Chalerm as Prime Minister. Compared to them - i would have preferred a Thaksin

Does it mean you are proposing to bring Thaksin back, for the sake of controlling Newin and Chalerm, since neither Dems nor PTP can control them?

>>>

And just how Thaksin's control over Interior is better than Newin's? Do you mean to say that Thaksin had never let his govt to control "the village, subdistrict and district levels"???

Until the Dems learn how to formulate policies and communicate them as well to the people in Isaarn and the North instead of talking a lot and doing nothing, they will stay completely ineffectual

They can formulate policies and communicate to the rest of the coutnry pretty well, beating PPP in the national policies ballots last time.

It's Isanese fixation with Thaksin that neither the coupmakers, nor Dems nor Newin have been able to break, and I don't see it as a problem with policies. Policies are fine and they work everywhere else.

By extention - I wonder how much strength the red movement derives from its dedication to Thaksin comparing to reason and belief in democracy. I think it's a personality cult more than anything else.

I propose substantial negotiations with the aim of wide reaching amnesties for all involved, but not before on the negotiation table a social contract has been drawn up, under which Thailand can progress.

Issues that have to be discussed are the need for separation between the institutions, the need for a simple constitution and organic laws that deal with the details. Ways how to protect the system against abuses of power of the likes of Thaksin have to be discussed, but also how the system can be protected against intransperent backdoor dealings that brought the Democrats into power. Politicians that directly violate election laws have to be punished with prison sentences as a deterrent. Etc.

As to your claim that democrats can formulate policies and communicate them - they have never been able to for all sectors of society. They still are a regional based party (south), and class based (upper middle, urban, with traditional elite support). That is why in the structurally poorer regions they never had much success.

Edit:

text edited to keep the monarchy out of the discussion - mario2008.

[bangon04]

Moderators are allowed to express their opinions as a regular poster. Given that Scott is the moderator for the Teaching forum only, it seems a bit much to expect him to refrain from posting in the rest of the forum.

and if someone is hurt during the Saturday riot/rally, then Scott will be the first to offer his condolences

[sriracha john]

Edit:

text edited to keep the monarchy out of the discussion - mario2008.

Thank you. This poster has repeatedly had difficulties complying with that, but then, so did his previous ID.

[HagenvonTronje]

Govt to enforce internal security control bill to protesters

BANGKOK, 26 June 2009 (NNT) – The government will enforce the internal security control bill to red-shirted protesters, if they violate the law.

Deputy Prime Minister in charge of security affairs Suthep Thuagsuban said that he was not worried about the rally of the red-shirted group tomorrow, although the Prime Minister and himself would be absent. He had assigned the Police Chief to control the rally and enforce the internal security control bill upon the protesters in case they violated the law.

He emphasized the security control at the Government House tomorrow and that he had assigned the staff to facilitate transportation of the Prime Minister, Ministers, and government officials, and to make sure that they could enter the Government House as usual.

Currently the Metropolitan Police Command has installed more closed-circuit cameras at seven to eight spots surrounding Government House. In the afternoon, some military officer surveyed the area inside the Government House before the security control tomorrow afternoon.

Meanwhile the concrete blockade had been put in three spots as Orathai Bridge, Chamai Maruchet Bridge, and Makkhawan Rangsan Bridge, in order to block the traffic around the Government House.

-- NNT 26 June 2009

article here

[Plus]

I propose substantial negotiations with the aim of wide reaching amnesties for all involved,

So the goal is to give out amnesties to political criminals?

So you acknowledge that the country is being held hostage to their interests that need to be satisfied to reach reconciliation?

Theoretically speaking, why do you believe that after they are excused they will be playing nice in the future, and how are you going to enforce the laws on them?

[justanothercybertosser]

Edit:

text edited to keep the monarchy out of the discussion - mario2008.

Thank you. This poster has repeatedly had difficulties complying with that, but then, so did his previous ID.

Don't wet yourself, i have reported my own post.

I haven't posted anything critical, my and the moderator's fear's were simply that it might begin a discussion on the monarchy, and we solved it in good understanding. If you don't believe me, ask the moderator.

[justanothercybertosser]

I propose substantial negotiations with the aim of wide reaching amnesties for all involved,

So the goal is to give out amnesties to political criminals?

So you acknowledge that the country is being held hostage to their interests that need to be satisfied to reach reconciliation?

Theoretically speaking, why do you believe that after they are excused they will be playing nice in the future, and how are you going to enforce the laws on them?

Because both sides have committed political crimes in equal measure, and we need the country to move forward instead of being caught up in this trench warfare. A new social contract has to be worked out between all sides, otherwise this will end up in a civil war.

[TAWP]

Moderators are allowed to express their opinions as a regular poster. Given that Scott is the moderator for the Teaching forum only, it seems a bit much to expect him to refrain from posting in the rest of the forum.

and if someone is hurt during the Saturday riot/rally, then Scott will be the first to offer his condolences

As he is best at doing, like clockwork. Explains a 3rd of his posts?

[rixalex]

i have reported my own post.

Self-moderating? Interesting idea.

So were you the one who banned you?

[justanothercybertosser]

i have reported my own post.

Self-moderating? Interesting idea.

So were you the one who banned you?

As you can see, i am not banned, i just make a post.

Here.

You see?

Anyhow, yes, after making a well meaning post, i realized that this might lead to unwanted debates, and i pressed the report button so that mods can decide what is best for the forum.

I really do not understand why this is now turning into a discussion.

[Samuian]

Any live-Reports from the gathering already?

While in the mean time Mr.Thaksin is calling the Si Saket Residents to "help him come back" as the temperatures in Dubai are 51 C and it's very hot there ...waiting... help him with their votes for Puea Thai... the proxy party of former TRT...

[JacknDanny]

i have reported my own post.

Self-moderating? Interesting idea.

So were you the one who banned you?

Its like sadomasochism, Thai Visa style

Keep reporting yourself for being a twot and then re-invent yourself and start all over again

[samgrowth]

Fly in the Saab. Deploy the gun copters. Humvee after humvees. Roll in the tanks. Not to forget diverting the Thai-Camb border army. And the Chao Phraya navy. ALL TO SANAM LUANG.

The RED are holding Bangkok / Thailand ransom.

Edited June 27, 2009 by samgrowth

[baht&sold]

Tourism sector worried about red-shirts rally

By: BangkokPost.com Published: 27/06/2009 at 02:02 PM

The tourism related industries were worried that the mass anti-government demonstration by supporters of the pro-Thaksin United front for Democracy against Dictatorship at Sanam Luang today will lead to unrest, chairperson of the Domestic Tour Agents Association, Maiyarat Peerayarnkoseth, said on Saturday afternoon.

The tourism sector have been hit hard by the global recession and the seizure of Suvarnabhumi airport by the yellow-shirt people, Ms Maiyarat said, adding that any return of the political turmoil would aggravate the problems of the sector.

She admitted that the red-shirts have constitutional rights to rally against the government, but it must be done in line with the law. She called on all parties to refrain from resorting to violence means in settling political conflicts.

-- Bangkok Post 27 June 2009

[baht&sold]

and from yesterday:

Business concern over UDD rally

Bangkok Post June 26, 2009

The private sector was concerned on the planned mass anti-government demonstration led by United front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) on Saturday, chairman of the Federation of Thai Industries (FTI) Santi Vilasskdanont said on Friday.

“Any return of the political turmoil would severely damage the economy,'' said Mr Santhi.

''It would aggravate the problems of the business sector, already hard hit by the slowdown in exports and tourism because of the global recession.''

The FTI chairman said the economy was now improving in line with the global economy.

The parliament’s approval of the executive decree to raise 400 billion baht in loans would enable the government to inject money into the system in the fourth quarter. This would shore up the economy later this year.

If there was further political unrest, these improvements will be meaningless and the ailing economy would worsen as investors’ confidence would be destroyed.

However, the private sector felt more comfortable after UDD leaders insisted the red-shirt rally would be peaceful, he said.

-- Bangkok Post 26 June 2009

[baht&sold]

also from yesterday

AIPA meeting at Pattaya in Aug

Bangkok Post June 26, 2009

Thai parliament is ready to host the 30th meeting of the Asean Inter-Parliamentary Assembly (AIPA) meeting at the Royal Cliff Beach Resort Hotel in Pattaya, Chon Buri, on Aug 2-8, said Sompol Wanikphan on Friday.

The deputy secretary-general of the House of Representatives said this while inspecting the meeting venue in Pattaya.

The meeting will be attended by some 300 delegates, including parliament presidents and parliamentarians from eight member countries and observers from 12 countries. Preparations have been made for the meeting, Mr Sompol said.

During the meeting, the organising committee will also take delegates to visit various tourist attractions in Pattaya.

-- Bangkok Post 26 June 2009

[Smithson]

If you really are too lazy to pay attention to whats going on than I suggest you get in a taxi with a translator and if the taxi driver is a red shirt ( 95 percent are ) ask the driver what his complaints are and why his so disatisfied .

Traffic congestion?

[babuhavas]

are this things going to end or not?they know everywell how to blue torist business

[baht&sold]

Methinks someone's after Jonathan Head's previous position... full of 'romantic tales' of democracy stolen, conveniently zero mention of the unth dissolution for the unth vote-fraud charge, no mention of previous Thaksin proxies who cynically 'trapped' poor Isaan voters, ladening them with even more crushing debt with no other plan than to keep them trapped like permanent indentured bond-slave servants, no mention of the Thaksin-perfected crop-pledging 'schemes' which enriches politicians, cronies, middlemen, pu yai's and rice millers but NOT poor farmers, no mention of grandiosely announced 30 baht health scheme then simply walking away with no real plan leaving an already crippled system in complete tatters....(chuckling all the way to the polls;) Could go on for days but the points are moot to the 'Thaksin/saviour' brigade...

Anyways, waddaya know, looks like big rain clouds are moving in

[Samuian]

Their intention is to keep the majority of the Thai people (over 70 percent) or up county rural people out of the political process ,, thereby prolonging the economic , political and social inequality that continue to persist here and are the ROOT cause of the problem , NOT Taksin.

The reds, on the other hand want economic , political and social EQUALITY ,, thats it !!!!!

To explain away the reds as just a bunch of Taksin loving violent bus burning thugs who are disloyal to the monarch and are trouble makers is a convenient way of sweeping under the rug the huge divisions in Thai society.

The bottom line is Taksin was merely the " messinger "

The MASSES have awoken

"merely"... the messenger - sure, messenger of a "self-service-cash-crop-country"?

I don't believe only ONE point in your pro-Thaksin - pro-red apologies - not one word!

The intention is all to clear - there NOTHING wrong with this country right now...so move it!

it's clearly the sound of the drums the red are playing in favor of their "savior"...

handing out cash, posts and favors by the truck load, for his supporters to serve himself and Shin.Corp!

He did nothing else when he was at the helm - why should he change?

Besides there is a war-chest still to be retrieved - forgotten?

[baht&sold]

Red-shirts heading to Bangkok

By: BangkokPost.com Published: 27/06/2009 at 03:03 PM

About 500 members of Khon Rak Udon (Love Udon People) red-shirt group, led by chairman Kwanchai Praiphana, had taken buses from the northeastern province of Udon Thani heading to Bangkok Saturday afternoon.

Mr Kwanchai said his group members are expected to arrive in Bangkok at about 4pm to join forces with the red-shirt people from other province at Sanam Luang.

He stressed that the red-shirts will call on Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to dissolve parliament to pave way for a fresh election. The government should give power back to people to allow them to choose the new government.

Red-shirt people from various provinces, particularly those from the North and Northeast are now heading to Bangkok to attend mass anti-government at Sanam Luang which will begin from 5pm today.

Leaders of the United front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) had confirmed that former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra will phone in to address his supporters at about 8.30 pm tonight.

Jatuporn Promphan, a core leader of UDD, insisted on Saturday that the red-shirts will rally only at Sanam Luang and will disperse early morning on Sunday. He stressed that the protesters will not move out to seal off Government House, the Si Sao residence of the president of Privy Council Gen Prem Tinsulanonda and other key state offices as many people fear.

-- Bangkok Post 27 June 2009