Military Service

[getgoin]

I am wondering if anyone can help me with some information about required military service for someone with dual nationality? My son, who is a US citizen was born in Thailand. He has carried a US passport all his life. He is turning 18 in October and the local government officials in my wife's village was asking about him getting his Thai ID card. Also, the local immigration official in Chiang Mai has asked us this for the last 2 years.

So we got him a Thai ID card. We are concerned about required military service. In my wife's village they have said that we should not worry and that for 20,000 Baht he will not have to go in for the ball lottery.

He will be heading back to the states and working for a year and then going to college. My questions are, Is someone with dual nationality required to go into the army? Is there a student deferment? What about if he is taking a year off before he goes to school, setting up residency in the US, is he required to report for the lottery?

Thanks

[oldsparrow]

They take no notion of another nationality. As long as your son has Thai ID he has to fulfill the obligation. If he has to stay away please notify the local Military Officer (สัสดี) before for the postponement otherwise he can have problem if he come back.

It's possible that 20K will do the trick for this kind of local corruption... if you prefer.

For the present situation, the chance of Red ball for service is pretty slim, maybe around 10%. in many Military district they have enough volunteer. All boys got regisered and go home.

[ubonjoe]

The last call up for the draft where I live was for 21 year olds. I understand that is the normal age they are called for the draw. If they don't pull a red ball then it is over no more draws.

If he is out of the country he will be exempted you just have to apply for the exemption. That can even be done at a Thai consulate in the States. Also as long as he is in school he can get an exemption also.

When he turns 30 he does not have to worry about it anymore.

[GarryP]

It is not an exemption it is a postponement for education until 26 years old.

Edited June 30, 2009 by GarryP

[samran]

...and when he does turn 30 he still has to report, though he is then automatically exempted.

[GarryP]

Let me give you an idea of my son's situation. My son has dual nationality. He should have reported to the local conscription officer in the district where his house registration is when he was 17. In this case it was a district of Ubol. He never did because we are living in Bangkok and couldn't be bothered. As he will be 21 next year we went up to Ubol 2 weeks ago to report to the conscription officer instead.

Now my wife didn't go with us as I have no problems in communicating in Thai so as usual I was left to deal with Thai officialdom. We arrived on thursday morning only to be told that the assistant conscription officer was in a seminar and would not be in on that day. I had a long discussion with the clerks there who informed me that in addition to getting his acknowledgement of reporting for conscription (Sor Dor 9), my son would also need to pick up his draft papers (Sor Dor 35) calling him to the lottery on 9 April 2010 (the dates vary depending on the districts). Anyway, we went back the next day and the asssistant conscription officer turned up about one hour after the district office opened. I also learned that he had not been in a seminar the previous day but was out planting rice. He only actually goes into the office about once a month and if there is an "emergency". My son's case was an "emergency". As a luk kreung it as not a simple matter of picking up the papers, he also had to be interviewed and the conscription clerks did not have the authority to do that.

I was sitting through the interview with my son. The assistant conscription officer said that conscription is based on the father and as my son's father (that means me) was a farang my son did not need to take part in the lottery. I pointed out to him that all young men who are physically and mentally able to serve their country must come forward according to the law otherwise they would be considered draft dodgers. This is with the exception of those who have been in the cadets (Lor Dor) while in high school, etc. He responded by saying that was the case only if they are Thai. I informed him for the umpteenth time that my son was Thai and he acknowledged this but still maintained that as I am a farang my son does not need to prticipate in the draft. I then showed him the amendment to my son's birth certificate showing that he was a Thai citizen and also his ID card. To be honest, he was confused as hel_l. I also pointed out that my son intended spending all his life in Thailand and so needed everything to be in order, especially as he has the idea of entering the legal profession and possibly even becoming a judge (if he isn't barred because of the nationality of his father). Also, if my son was going to avoid the draft by claiming my citizenship, by default he would in theory forfeit his right to Thai citizenship. This would not be an issue if we were in the UK and he returned to Thailand when he was thirty or so.

Eventually, the interview was concluded, a fine of 300 Baht paid for late reporting, and the correct papers issued. As we were about to leave, it was suggested that we pay Baht 40,000 and my son could go through the lottery without being drafted, pick up his papers on 9 April and be on his way. Now the going rate in that particular district is between 15 and 20 thousand Baht, so obviously there is two tier pricing for conscription too. I just smiled and we left.

To cap it all, all the flights back to the Smoke were fully booked and we ended up spending 12 hours on what must have been one of the slowest trains out of Ubol and all the sleeping berths were fully booked.

[getgoin]

Let me give you an idea of my son's situation. My son has dual nationality. He should have reported to the local conscription officer in the district where his house registration is when he was 17. In this case it was a district of Ubol. He never did because we are living in Bangkok and couldn't be bothered. As he will be 21 next year we went up to Ubol 2 weeks ago to report to the conscription officer instead.

Now my wife didn't go with us as I have no problems in communicating in Thai so as usual I was left to deal with Thai officialdom. We arrived on thursday morning only to be told that the assistant conscription officer was in a seminar and would not be in on that day. I had a long discussion with the clerks there who informed me that in addition to getting his acknowledgement of reporting for conscription (Sor Dor 9), my son would also need to pick up his draft papers (Sor Dor 35) calling him to the lottery on 9 April 2010 (the dates vary depending on the districts). Anyway, we went back the next day and the asssistant conscription officer turned up about one hour after the district office opened. I also learned that he had not been in a seminar the previous day but was out planting rice. He only actually goes into the office about once a month and if there is an "emergency". My son's case was an "emergency". As a luk kreung it as not a simple matter of picking up the papers, he also had to be interviewed and the conscription clerks did not have the authority to do that.

I was sitting through the interview with my son. The assistant conscription officer said that conscription is based on the father and as my son's father (that means me) was a farang my son did not need to take part in the lottery. I pointed out to him that all young men who are physically and mentally able to serve their country must come forward according to the law otherwise they would be considered draft dodgers. This is with the exception of those who have been in the cadets (Lor Dor) while in high school, etc. He responded by saying that was the case only if they are Thai. I informed him for the umpteenth time that my son was Thai and he acknowledged this but still maintained that as I am a farang my son does not need to prticipate in the draft. I then showed him the amendment to my son's birth certificate showing that he was a Thai citizen and also his ID card. To be honest, he was confused as hel_l. I also pointed out that my son intended spending all his life in Thailand and so needed everything to be in order, especially as he has the idea of entering the legal profession and possibly even becoming a judge (if he isn't barred because of the nationality of his father). Also, if my son was going to avoid the draft by claiming my citizenship, by default he would in theory forfeit his right to Thai citizenship. This would not be an issue if we were in the UK and he returned to Thailand when he was thirty or so.

Eventually, the interview was concluded, a fine of 300 Baht paid for late reporting, and the correct papers issued. As we were about to leave, it was suggested that we pay Baht 40,000 and my son could go through the lottery without being drafted, pick up his papers on 9 April and be on his way. Now the going rate in that particular district is between 15 and 20 thousand Baht, so obviously there is two tier pricing for conscription too. I just smiled and we left.

To cap it all, all the flights back to the Smoke were fully booked and we ended up spending 12 hours on what must have been one of the slowest trains out of Ubol and all the sleeping berths were fully booked.

Why didn't you just agree with him that he didn't need to take part in the lottery? Also, on my son's birth certificate it says that my son is a US citzen. Yesterday he got his Thai ID card.

[oldsparrow]

GarryP

With foreigner father. Your son can be a judge when he pass the standard exam.

[GarryP]

GarryP

With foreigner father. Your son can be a judge when he pass the standard exam.

Thanks for letting me know.

[GarryP]

Why didn't you just agree with him that he didn't need to take part in the lottery? Also, on my son's birth certificate it says that my son is a US citzen. Yesterday he got his Thai ID card.

We all live in Thailand. If he wants to apply for a Thai passport, say when he is 22, assuming he has not obtained a deferment, without the requisite clearance papers from having gone through the drafting process his application would be rejected. Also, in the unlikely event that he is caught and his records checked he would be found to have dodged the draft.

If he is living in Thailand after his twentieth birthday based on Thai citizenship, it is an issue. On the other hand, if he were living in Thailand based on his UK citizenship then theoretically he would need to get the requisite Thai visas. Everyone's situation is different but in my sons case he intends to live here permanently, he thinks of himself as a Thai. The only thing different is that he looks Luk Kreung. If we were going to live in the UK for the next few years we would have done things differently.

[oldsparrow]

You're welcome GaryP. Glad to see a young man who intend to take on great profession krub.

You're right. It's better to stick to the book for some official may use too muct of his own discretion. Only proper document can be used in the future. My half farng Thai friend also did Ror Dor otherwise he also had to take the ballot.

I am a Thai gov officer. Not only gov job but most Thai company also require the proper Sor Dor in the job application.

[getgoin]

You're welcome GaryP. Glad to see a young man who intend to take on great profession krub.

You're right. It's better to stick to the book for some official may use too muct of his own discretion. Only proper document can be used in the future. My half farng Thai friend also did Ror Dor otherwise he also had to take the ballot.

I am a Thai gov officer. Not only gov job but most Thai company also require the proper Sor Dor in the job application.

I'm not sure if my son ever intends to live in Thailand. He is going to go to school, college, in the US. After that I am going to believe that he will probably meet a girl there and settle down and work.

I'm not sure he will ever work in Thailand but he does want to visit and travel here and who knows, he could become infatuated with the Thai women as have so many of us?

[Maizefarmer]

Let me give you an idea of my son's situation. My son has dual nationality. He should have reported to the local conscription officer in the district where his house registration is when he was 17. In this case it was a district of Ubol. He never did because we are living in Bangkok and couldn't be bothered. As he will be 21 next year we went up to Ubol 2 weeks ago to report to the conscription officer instead.

Now my wife didn't go with us as I have no problems in communicating in Thai so as usual I was left to deal with Thai officialdom. We arrived on thursday morning only to be told that the assistant conscription officer was in a seminar and would not be in on that day. I had a long discussion with the clerks there who informed me that in addition to getting his acknowledgement of reporting for conscription (Sor Dor 9), my son would also need to pick up his draft papers (Sor Dor 35) calling him to the lottery on 9 April 2010 (the dates vary depending on the districts). Anyway, we went back the next day and the asssistant conscription officer turned up about one hour after the district office opened. I also learned that he had not been in a seminar the previous day but was out planting rice. He only actually goes into the office about once a month and if there is an "emergency". My son's case was an "emergency". As a luk kreung it as not a simple matter of picking up the papers, he also had to be interviewed and the conscription clerks did not have the authority to do that.

I was sitting through the interview with my son. The assistant conscription officer said that conscription is based on the father and as my son's father (that means me) was a farang my son did not need to take part in the lottery. I pointed out to him that all young men who are physically and mentally able to serve their country must come forward according to the law otherwise they would be considered draft dodgers. This is with the exception of those who have been in the cadets (Lor Dor) while in high school, etc. He responded by saying that was the case only if they are Thai. I informed him for the umpteenth time that my son was Thai and he acknowledged this but still maintained that as I am a farang my son does not need to prticipate in the draft. I then showed him the amendment to my son's birth certificate showing that he was a Thai citizen and also his ID card. To be honest, he was confused as hel_l. I also pointed out that my son intended spending all his life in Thailand and so needed everything to be in order, especially as he has the idea of entering the legal profession and possibly even becoming a judge (if he isn't barred because of the nationality of his father). Also, if my son was going to avoid the draft by claiming my citizenship, by default he would in theory forfeit his right to Thai citizenship. This would not be an issue if we were in the UK and he returned to Thailand when he was thirty or so.

Eventually, the interview was concluded, a fine of 300 Baht paid for late reporting, and the correct papers issued. As we were about to leave, it was suggested that we pay Baht 40,000 and my son could go through the lottery without being drafted, pick up his papers on 9 April and be on his way. Now the going rate in that particular district is between 15 and 20 thousand Baht, so obviously there is two tier pricing for conscription too. I just smiled and we left.

To cap it all, all the flights back to the Smoke were fully booked and we ended up spending 12 hours on what must have been one of the slowest trains out of Ubol and all the sleeping berths were fully booked.

Good on you Gary - yes, I agree with military service - and its exactly what I've encouraged my youngster to do. He's gone off to get his Uni education done, so it gives him a chance to get on a junior leadership course (officer training for those who don't know).

Personal opinion - if your son is eligable for military service, I know few Thai kids look forward to it with any degree of enthusiasm, and the general opinion is that its a pretty uncomfortable couple of years (especially for the rank and file) - but its a once in a lifetime experiance which does one no harm if they pull their weight and do their bit.

[KarnBunyatipanon]

The last call up for the draft where I live was for 21 year olds. I understand that is the normal age they are called for the draw. If they don't pull a red ball then it is over no more draws.

If he is out of the country he will be exempted you just have to apply for the exemption. That can even be done at a Thai consulate in the States. Also as long as he is in school he can get an exemption also.

When he turns 30 he does not have to worry about it anymore.

How do you apply for the exemption in the usa?

[Thongkorn]

If he has a Thai ID card he has to report, if he does not, then If he ever goes back to Thailand he will be arrested. We found this out for a friend whose son came to live in the UK when he was twelve, he was twenty one, He returned a few months ago to serve his time in the Military, He was killed the second day there by a motorbike accident,

[Trembly]

Small point of order : The สัสดี (sasdee) are provosts, some of which are assigned the role of recruiting sergeants. The vast majority of the ones you will come into contact with will not be commissioned officers.

[simple1]

If he has a Thai ID card he has to report, if he does not, then If he ever goes back to Thailand he will be arrested. We found this out for a friend whose son came to live in the UK when he was twelve, he was twenty one, He returned a few months ago to serve his time in the Military, He was killed the second day there by a motorbike accident,

I was provided the same information by the Thai Embassy in Australia. Sorry cannot locate the link, but was informed by TV member this is not the case. Does anyone have factual information?

[evadgib]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

Edited May 18, 2012 by evadgib

[1bbcd5]

Great thread! Also my favorite view.

[Trembly]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

Though I like the idea, I reckon that a recruiting sergeant worth his stripes would probably be able to crack all but the canniest and most switched on of "I don't understand what you're saying" merchants.

[LucidLucifer]

I can't comment on personal experience, but I can remember reading a very long article published in the Bangkok Post (approx late 2005/2006). This was written by one of their reporters, and it was about his recent experience of attending the lottery for his conscription.

He was leuk kreung, although I can't remember whether it was his mother or father that was Thai. The jist of the article was basically of him spending a lot of time queuing, doing this and that etc in the sun, to be told that becuase he was leuk kreung he didn't need to enlist, and he could go home, which he knew anyway.

Edited May 18, 2012 by LucidLucifer

[samsiam]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

Though I like the idea, I reckon that a recruiting sergeant worth his stripes would probably be able to crack all but the canniest and most switched on of "I don't understand what you're saying" merchants.

I heard the half thai kids get a very hard time.

I have not read Samrans thread yet...as he said, still got 5 years....soon.

I wonder if 'no unnastan' repeatedly would do the trick....

[GarryP]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

My son has a western name. Language grounds will not get you out of it, but perhaps taking hormones and growing a pair of mammaries would work. Transgenders do not serve.

[LucidLucifer]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

My son has a western name. Language grounds will not get you out of it, but perhaps taking hormones and growing a pair of mammaries would work. Transgenders do not serve.

Yes, very true. I can also remember in the article I mentioned above that the guy was left waiting around with all the katoeys before being told to leave.

Did I read somewhere that they were thinking of changing that exemption though?

[Trembly]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

My son has a western name. Language grounds will not get you out of it, but perhaps taking hormones and growing a pair of mammaries would work. Transgenders do not serve.

How could not being able to comprehend, relay, read or write orders in Thai not get you out of it?

Edited May 18, 2012 by Trembly

[Trembly]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

Though I like the idea, I reckon that a recruiting sergeant worth his stripes would probably be able to crack all but the canniest and most switched on of "I don't understand what you're saying" merchants.

I heard the half thai kids get a very hard time.

I have not read Samrans thread yet...as he said, still got 5 years....soon.

I wonder if 'no unnastan' repeatedly would do the trick....

I don't know any loog-krueng who got conscripted but I do know a few halflings from my school days who did Ror-Dor and if that's anything to go by then whether loog-kruengs have a hard time of it or not is almost entirely down to whether they can take any banter from the directing staff and their peers. Remember that Thailand has only just heard about political correctness, which comes from outer space.

[samsiam]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

My son has a western name. Language grounds will not get you out of it, but perhaps taking hormones and growing a pair of mammaries would work. Transgenders do not serve.

How could not being able to comprehend, relay, read or write orders in Thai not get you out of it?

Exactly...if he got drafted...he could just stand around and look dumb, do nothing.....oh wait a minute.

[samsiam]

Surely a kid with a western-sounding name could bluff his way by speaking English/his other language long enough to be excused on language grounds?

Though I like the idea, I reckon that a recruiting sergeant worth his stripes would probably be able to crack all but the canniest and most switched on of "I don't understand what you're saying" merchants.

I heard the half thai kids get a very hard time.

I have not read Samrans thread yet...as he said, still got 5 years....soon.

I wonder if 'no unnastan' repeatedly would do the trick....

I don't know any loog-krueng who got conscripted but I do know a few halflings from my school days who did Ror-Dor and if that's anything to go by then whether loog-kruengs have a hard time of it or not is almost entirely down to whether they can take any banter from the directing staff and their peers. Remember that Thailand has only just heard about political correctness, which comes from outer space.

But what if the thai illiterate luk krueng was wandering about not listening to anyone cos he no comprendi....and playing with a hand grenade pin ??

[Trembly]

But what if the thai illiterate luk krueng was wandering about not listening to anyone cos he no comprendi....and playing with a hand grenade pin ??

Not possible. I know Thailand seems a bit backward sometimes but the film about King Naresuan was a historical drama, not a documentary on Thailand's Army today.

[GarryP]

There is nothing written in the exemptions about not being able to speak Thai. Therefore, you must serve. Does it make sense? No. But since when has sense been an issue. Flat feet, physical disability, mental disability (transgenders used to falll under this exemption but no longer), chest too small, too short, etc. But nothing about language.

As to luk kreungs having a hard time of it, it depends on the kid. There are plenty of luk kreungs drafted. If you have been brought up as a Thai, mixed with Thais, gone to school with Thais, why would you have a problem. Other Thais do not think of you as something different. On the other hand, (Generalization Warning!!!) if you went to international schools, mixed solely with the international school - expat set, etc. you tend not to relate to other Thais and vice versa. I could certainly see those luk kreungs suffering and being picked on. But then they would very unlikely be drafted because certain fiscal measures would be taken by mum or dad to prevent it.