Rap And Hip Hop To Lure Young People To Buddhism

[george]

Rap and hip hop to lure young people to Buddhism

BANGKOK: -- Rap and hip hop songs are not normally noted for the moral nature of their lyrics, but the Ministry of Culture is hoping to harness the popularity of these musical genres among Thai youths to encourage them to take part in events marking the holiest day in the Buddhist calendar.

In part a desperate bid on the part of a government concerned that the popularity of Valentine's Day has eclipsed that of festivals like Makabucha – the day celebrating the Lord Buddha’s birth, enlightenment and death – the ministry is to organize a concert on 23 February that will seek to define a new genre of ‘Dhamma Rap’.

Doing away with the often violent and misogynist lyrics associated with rap, the new genre will focus on compassion, sharing and the ability to let go of material possessions.

The Vice Minister for Culture, Weerasak Kowsurat, explains that the songs will help young people realise that Dhamma is not simply found in temples, but can also be found in everyday life.

“We want to push Makabucha Day as a day of compassion, just as the world designates Valentine's Day as a day of love”, he says.

“Young people don’t really understand the meaning of this. We need to ensure that love has a wider meaning, and we need to forge links between important religious days and society”.

The concert forms part of a wider campaign by the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Social Development and Human Resources to lure an increasingly westernised generation of young people back to traditional culture and religion.

--TNA 2005-02-19

[stumonster]

the Ministry of Culture

They need to be studied in a petri dish ---

The Vice Minister for Culture

I wonder if this bloke needs me as a consultant?

[cdnvic]

Popular music and buddhism rarely meet. This should be interesting to see what they come up with. Hopefully it will be a real artist doing the work, and not something written by a civil servant in the culture ministry.

cv

[sabaijai]

This sort of thing can work when it comes from the bottom up, ie, when musicians themselves come up with the inspiration. Am thinking of that rap group in the USA that spreads a Muslim message, I can't recall the name.

I'd not be very confident that any kind of music calculated by a government will take hold of the music market.

[Abandon]

Reminds me of the Bishops fashion show last year - bishops with designer robes walking up and down the catwalk. They also were promoting t-shirts with messages such as a Lord of the Rings copy saying Lord of All Things. The campaign was designed to lure young people to Christianity.

I think that Buddhism teaches Nippida (disillusionment, kwarm beua nai) with worldly things, and such ideas, while well meaning, are detremental, especially with Buddhism. But more than that, Buddhism, and other genuine religion, should be leading away from the tendancy of the mind to indulge in excitement and stimulation of the senses, towards peace and meditation.

[sabaijai]

Reminds me of the Bishops fashion show last year - bishops with designer robes walking up and down the catwalk. They also were promoting t-shirts with messages such as a Lord of the Rings copy saying Lord of All Things. The campaign was designed to lure young people to Christianity.

I think that Buddhism teaches Nippida (disillusionment, kwarm beua nai) with worldly things, and such ideas, while well meaning, are detremental, especially with Buddhism. But more than that, Buddhism, and other genuine religion, should be leading away from the tendancy of the mind to indulge in excitement and stimulation of the senses, towards peace and meditation.

you mean nibbida, right? also defined as disenchantment (with objects of attachment), dispassion, disgust, world-weariness.

It's said that nibbida arises not from the withholding of sense objects, but is rather conditioned upon the arising of yathabhuta, or 'knowledge and vision of things as they really are'. Yathabhuta itself arises from satipatthana, the practice of mindfulness.

From that perspective any message - whether conveyed via music or otherwise - is meritorious if it leads someone to practice satipatthana.

"Q: Those who have practiced until they reach nibbida-nana, practiced by looking at the seated, reclining, standing or walking rupa, I wonder how they do that? What is the practice that makes them attain nibbida-nana?

A: Without knowing what the nama-rupa-paricchedanana is, it is impossible to attain nibbida-nana. Kayanupassana-satipatthana is the instant sati is mindful of the characteristics of rupa-paramattha-dhamma, which appears through the bodysense one at a time: rupa that is cold, heat, softness, hardness, tension or motion, not to watch rupa in a seated, reclining, standing or walking position. When cold appears to the bodysense, it is only a reality that is cold, therefore it is not us, not ours, nor the self. If one is ignorant of the characteristics of rupa-dhamma that appears through each dvara as only the rupa that appears through each dvara, one could never reach nama-rupa-paricchedanana and since panna has not reached nama-rupa-paricchedanana, it cannot reach nibbida-nana."

http://www.budsir.org/handbook/inslght_by_...ture_method.htm

[bina]

sorry sabaijai, maybe i;m tired, but, can u run that past me again in simple language... it sounded interesting....

[Abandon]

Now I rarely see eye-to-eye with Sabaijai, and now is no exception. No offense, it's all in the way of discussion, and I think we both appreciate other Buddhists even when of a different view point. That said, I can take the gloves off....

Nibbida (in Thai is nippita I think, I regularly mix up the Thai and Western pronunciations) does have technical processes, especially in Abhidhamma. But it is only pointing to something that is a real experience in the heart.

Such technical descriptions might be a way of understanding, but they invariably come from the commentaries, written for the most part by Indian philosphers long after the Buddha.

I like the story of the wealthy and delicately reared Yasa, which I always use to introduce the topic of Nibbida. He had 3 mansions - 1 for each of the seasons, and was ministered to by bands of musicians and girls. One night of being so attended he fell asleep and woke late when all the girls were asleep, and he saw them snoring, mouths dribbling, boobs exposed etc.. "Seeing this, its peril grew plain, and his mind was set on disregarding it" and he uttered what distress! What affliction!

(hen kwarm pen taut, jit dai tang man nai nippita) He wondered about moaning this is distress, this is affliction until he met the Buddha who told him this is not distress, this is not affliction, come sit down and I will teach you Dhamma. He was given the talk - on Giving, morality, heaven, the peril, vanity, depravity of the senses, and the advantage in renouncing them.

You will see first that nibbida (dis-illusionment) arises to anyone at times, even though they have never heard of sati patthana (4 foundations of mindfulness). I too entered Buddhism this way - I had nibbida long before encountering Buddhism, as do many other Buddhists I have met. It is the feeling of non-excitement with the things that once you thought were exciting, the feeling of the emptiness and vanity of the world and worldly things.

Also note that the teaching was directly about the senses, and encouragement to view nibbida as a quality and not a distress. No mention of the four foundations of mindfulness. As Yasa's mind became still, he was taught the 4 Noble Truths. I like to make Buddhism something REAL, not something that comes from learning lots of Abhidhamma and Visudhimagga. Nibbida is a common experience, but mostly folk try and find new ways of excitement rather than viewing it as a gateway into the practise.

To whatever level of dis-illusionment one feels, the practise of mindfulness will expand it. Being mindful, and not lost in the daily excitements and tribulations strenghtens the feeling of dispassion (viraka). In plain english it means that if you examine your daily activites, especially by the practise of mindfulness and attention to what you are doing, then they start to lose their fascination for you, and the mind becomes more interested in Peace, and also becomes free (er) of the lure of excitement, and so more clear - and this is the precurser of Buddhist wisdom arising. I compare wisdom to the old folk you know who are not caught up in youthful things such as latest fashion, music and money (hopefully), as opposed to inteligence. Being somewhat distanced from worldly distractions one becomes fed up of them, and also free to act in wholesome ways with love, compassion etc.

As for music and such being an inspiration, and helpful in encouraging interest, well ok, I'd not want to tell anyone to buzz off just because they hears a song about buddhism. However, it is something that lies in the opposite direction to Buddhism, and as such I don't like to see something holy being sung by half naked pop stars, or made into board games etc. But no real beef about it. Let them go ahead, just not so far as Happy Clappy choirs on the street corner and I will be satisfied.

Now let me get my crash helmet on for the buffeting I'll surely get from Sabaijai.

[sabaijai]

Now I rarely see eye-to-eye with Sabaijai, and now is no exception. No offense, it's all in the way of discussion, and I think we both appreciate other Buddhists even when of a different view point. That said, I can take the gloves off....

Nibbida (in Thai is nippita I think, I regularly mix up the Thai and Western pronunciations) does have technical processes, especially in Abhidhamma. But it is only pointing to something that is a real experience in the heart.

Such technical descriptions might be a way of understanding, but they invariably come from the commentaries, written for the most part by Indian philosphers long after the Buddha.

I like the story of the wealthy and delicately reared Yasa, which I always use to introduce the topic of Nibbida. He had 3 mansions - 1 for each of the seasons, and was ministered to by bands of musicians and girls. One night of being so attended he fell asleep and woke late when all the girls were asleep, and he saw them snoring, mouths dribbling, boobs exposed etc.. "Seeing this, its peril  grew plain, and his mind was set on disregarding it" and he uttered what distress! What affliction!

(hen kwarm pen taut, jit dai tang man nai nippita) He wondered about moaning this is distress, this is affliction until he met the Buddha who told him this is not distress, this is not affliction, come sit down and I will teach you Dhamma. He was given the talk - on Giving, morality, heaven, the peril, vanity, depravity of the senses, and the advantage in renouncing them.

You will see first that nibbida (dis-illusionment) arises to anyone at times, even though they have never heard of sati patthana (4 foundations of mindfulness). I too entered Buddhism this way - I had nibbida long before encountering Buddhism, as do many other Buddhists I have met. It is the feeling of non-excitement with the things that once you thought were exciting, the feeling of the emptiness and vanity of the world and worldly things.

Also note that the teaching was directly about the senses, and encouragement to view nibbida as a quality and not a distress. No mention of the four foundations of mindfulness. As Yasa's mind became still, he was taught the 4 Noble Truths. I like to make Buddhism something REAL, not something that comes from learning lots of Abhidhamma and Visudhimagga. Nibbida is a common experience, but mostly folk try and find new ways of excitement rather than viewing it as a gateway into the practise.

To whatever level of dis-illusionment one feels, the practise of mindfulness will expand it. Being mindful, and not lost in the daily excitements and tribulations strenghtens the feeling of dispassion (viraka). In plain english it means that if you examine your daily activites, especially by the practise of mindfulness and attention to what you are doing, then they start to lose their fascination for you, and the mind becomes more interested in Peace, and also becomes free (er) of the lure of excitement, and so more clear - and this is the precurser of Buddhist wisdom arising. I compare wisdom to the old folk you know who are not caught up in youthful things such as latest fashion, music and money (hopefully), as opposed to inteligence. Being somewhat distanced from worldly distractions one becomes fed up of them, and also free to act in wholesome ways with love, compassion etc.

As for music and such being an inspiration, and helpful in encouraging interest, well ok, I'd not want to tell anyone to buzz off just because they hears a song about buddhism. However, it is something that lies in the opposite direction to Buddhism, and as such I don't like to see something holy being sung by half naked pop stars, or made into board games etc. But no real beef about it. Let them go ahead, just not so far as Happy Clappy choirs on the street corner and I will be satisfied.

Now let me get my crash helmet on for the buffeting I'll surely get from Sabaijai.

   

I wasn't aware that we rarely saw eye to eye, Pandit35, here I thought we were kindred spirits. Guess it's all in the perception.

At any rate your counter-argument seems perfectly civil to me, so no worries about gloves or no.

And no disagreement at all with your interpretation of nibbida (disenchantment), the non-technical usage of the term as it were. References to nibbida in the Tipitaka are usually linked to nibbida-nana, as a distinct stage of sati development, as far as I can tell, but your general use of the term to mean general world weariness, etc, seems perfectly fine to me.

A web search seems to confirm, though, that what you call the 'technical' definition is more common, at least in cyberspace. But not having read every single verse in the Tipitaka myself, I'm certainly not qualified to say for sure.

Nibbida that comes from, shall we say, 'over-indulgence' in sensual delights is only temporary and may not necessarily lead to spiritual pursuits. Nibbida that comes from satipatthana, on the other hand, is also temporary but it takes one to the next level (muccitu-kamyata or desire to escape; or else viraga, disentanglement)

But even in your own Yasa example, nibbida arises not because of separation from sense objects, but rather exposure to them.

So I still don't see how withholding music from young people will enhance the opportunity for nibbida, whether in the layman's definition or the satipattana-related one.

With proper understanding of the dhamma, sati can arise whether your listening to pop music or cloistered away in a monastery. The idea that music "lies in the opposite direction to Buddhism" seems to me itself to be heading in the opposite direction of Buddhadharma, where nothing is worth clinging to, even abstinence.

I like to make Buddhism something REAL, not something that comes from learning lots of Abhidhamma and Visudhimagga.

So where did you first come across the term nibbida, if not either the Adhidhamma or the Visuddhimagga?

Perhaps in a Thai essay or lecture even further removed from the Suttas? [Aside: I also first heard the term from a Thai teacher, the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, when I was translating his essay Nibbana: Life's Destination from Thai into English. He defined it as one of the stages of insight, as I have here.]

People don't have to have necessarily practiced or even have heard of satipatthana for sati to arise spontaneously, by the way.

[sabaijai]

sorry sabaijai, maybe i;m tired, but, can u run that past me again in simple language... it sounded interesting....

I'll try to break it down for you. The terms are awful until you learn them, then you realize they express things more easily than English, just like 'spanner' is easier to communicate than 'long metal thing with a crescent-shaped hook on each end, used to remove nuts.'

Anyway, when the practice of mindfulness takes you to the stage where you see mind and form for what they are -- empty and fleeting -- then you begin to experience disenchantment with the world. The fizz goes out of the soda pop, so to speak.

That's how nibbida is usually referred to in Theravada Buddhism. It can also be used the way Pandit35 uses it, to refer to disenchantment resulting from over-indulgence in sense objects.

The two approaches or definitions may not be as far apart as they at first seem. It may be that the over-indulger catches a glimpse of the nama-rupa (sorry, mind-form) game, so disenchantment could be arising from the same causal link.

Does that make sense?

Ajahn Chah, the late, great Isan teacher, used to ask, when he first met people, 'Are you weary? Are you bored? Have you had enough yet?'"

[bina]

this is something for reading int the morning not after a long days work; but

'spanner' is easier to communicate than 'long metal thing with a crescent-shaped hook on each end, used to remove nuts.

is often how i describe something to one of my kids at the end of a day, once my mind is tired and the language fluency (in hebreww) slithers away...

i think learning the terms from the net is difficult although i did coppy stuff from buddhanet or dammhanet or whichever one i cant remember now... will have to work on concentrating more....but thanx for reducing in it to a bit more 'one syllable' language....

an other question:

Anyway, when the practice of mindfulness takes you to the stage where you see mind and form for what they are -- empty and fleeting -- then you begin to experience disenchantment with the world. The fizz goes out of the soda pop, so to speak.

what does this mean for children, where everything is new to them, and interesting?? or for someone who is not 'jaded' as it were??

in other words, i dont think i could ever be world weary or over satiated as i am a moderate person in general... so i could never reach the next stage? or am i missing the point??

Edited February 21, 2005 by bina

[Abandon]

Youe see I just find descriptions as::

Without knowing what the nama-rupa-paricchedanana is, it is impossible to attain nibbida-nana. Kayanupassana-satipatthana is the instant sati is mindful of the characteristics of rupa-paramattha-dhamma, which appears through the bodysense one at a time: rupa that is cold, heat, softness, hardness, tension or motion, not to watch rupa in a seated, reclining, standing or walking position. When cold appears to the bodysense, it is only a reality that is cold, therefore it is not us, not ours, nor the self. If one is ignorant of the characteristics of rupa-dhamma that appears through each dvara as only the rupa that appears through each dvara, one could never reach nama-rupa-paricchedanana and since panna has not reached nama-rupa-paricchedanana, it cannot reach nibbida-nana."

as laughable. I can follow it fine as I am familiar with all the terms, but it's just a dry, lifeless description, that usually comes from those who have studied Abhidhamma, and feel others need to in order to understand. They are only descriptions of somthing that is a real movement of the heart. The big teachers such as luang phor cha, and ajahn Buddhadasa never gave talks like that, though they did use your device of answering their own questions.

In plain english it means that if you examine your daily activites, especially by the practise of mindfulness and attention to what you are doing, then they start to lose their fascination for you, and the mind becomes more interested in Peace, and also becomes free (er) of the lure of excitement, and so more clear - and this is the precurser of Buddhist wisdom arising. I compare wisdom to the old folk you know who are not caught up in youthful things such as latest fashion, music and money (hopefully), as opposed to inteligence. Being somewhat distanced from worldly distractions one becomes fed up of them, and also free to act in wholesome ways with love, compassion etc.

Quoting myself here as I don't want to type it again I have just described nibbida leading to unhappiness (as is often the case) and how it can be used by the wise to head towards peace, which leads to dispassion, and wisdom; but using the earthy, sensible style that in fact is the way that the Buddha presented his path.

So where did you first come across the term nibbida, if not either the Adhidhamma or the Visuddhimagga?

But the very example I used comes directly from the mahavagga. Though I have read all the main teachers, modern and ancient, including the Christian mystics and Hindu teachers, the main source I use is the Suttas directly. Such a far cry from the scholarly approaches that have come afterwards. There's no need to fathom a plethora of terminologies to find Dhamma as it exists inits only true and pure form in the heart - indeed, I often find that the more technical and learned the teacher, the further they are from any meaningful communication.

Anyway, when the practice of mindfulness takes you to the stage where you see mind and form for what they are -- empty and fleeting -- then you begin to experience disenchantment with the world. The fizz goes out of the soda pop, so to speak.

Is much more to the point that I am making, but I was also showing how this leads to something positive, and something that fosters wisdom, and leads to the beautiful (sorry, sobhana) aspects of Buddhism such as compassion, wisdom, and loveing kindness.

what does this mean for children, where everything is new to them, and interesting?? or for someone who is not 'jaded' as it were??

in other words, i dont think i could ever be world weary or over satiated as i am a moderate person in general... so i could never reach the next stage? or am i missing the point??

Which is getting to bina's point. When Buddhism becomes a technical process from one pali word to another, it loses its reality. As with the Yasa story I gave, world weariness can make one feel depressed, but can also be something beautiful. Weariness with lies, with greed etc.. opens the door of the heart and leads to all the positive aspecs of religion. It is not necessary to follow and attain 1,2,3 of a list, as we see with bina - the descriptions of nibbida are there for those who feel it in that way. It is not necessary to imply that everyone needs to become depressed in order to attain the next pali phrase, even though many people do go through that stage. It is only a stage for those (like me) who come from that angle, and even then is only a pre-cursor to the developement of the beautiful states of mind. "jaded" as bina points out, is not something to be desired, and technical descriptions have suggested to her that she needs to feel this before she can progress, which is nonesense of course.

Actually nibbida can be compared to giving up ones childhood toys - they just lose fascination, and never really need to be renounced. If you are still attached then maybe it is a different story. Developing the positive aspects of Buddhism, a path that is often overlooked, is just as valid as the dry renounciation, and world weariness path.

A while back there was a post about how in this forum everyone is too afraid to disagree , which does not make for lively discussion, so I am putting forth my thoughts a bit more strongly than I might otherwise, but all in the spirit of respectful debate. It's certainly nice to have the wider Sangha around to get spirited with.

[Abandon]

I still feel that, while maybe not a detriment, is hardly something spiritual in the Buddhist sense.

[sabaijai]

ajahn Buddhadasa never gave talks like that, though they did use your device of answering their own questions.

Just a correction, Buddhadasa often lectured along the same lines as the passage I quoted, as I know from translating two of his longer lessay books and from having spent a couple of months studying with him privately at Wat Suanmok in the early 1980s. He injected his talks with plenty of Pali terms, more than the average monk uses in the average sermon, in fact. He also often used Pali terms that other monks weren't very familiar with. He loved the term nibbida, and used it *only* in the context of stages of insight as far as I've been able to tell by reading him.

Buddhadasa often said to me, and to others, that authentic nibbida only comes from understanding the dhammas.

The Supreme Patriarch, the head of the Sangha in Thailand, and under whom I had the good fortune to study in the late 70s, also spoke of nibbida as a stage of insight (vipassana).

I'm all for reducing the usage of Pali terms. In that case, though, I don't understand why you brought out the term nibbida in the first place since, according to you, it's a perfectly normal experience known as 'disillusionment'! Everyone knows disillusionment, no? Or is it only permissible to use the Pali terms that you choose, not the terms someone else might quote?

Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Buddhadasa are great teachers indeed, but only happen to be the two most famous ones among foreigners. Currently most people would say that P.A Payuttho and Ajahn Sujin are the topmost living dhamma experts in Thailand, and both make full use of the complete Tipitaka.

Pandit35, you may be attracted to the less intellectual teachers and to the Suttas to the exclusion of the other two pitaka because they're saying what you want to hear, reinforcing your own notions about dhamma (same applies to me of course).

Of course one can take the position - as many self-taught Buddhists do - that Buddhadharma is self-evident and one needn't pay any attention to the Suttas either.

Me I don't yet have the wisdom to claim which pitikas may be excluded from study.I also can't distinguish REAL dhamma from the dhamma I've been taught. Maybe one day I'll get there.

[Abandon]

I could have just used disillusionment, but I do like to try and give the pali terms for things, especially key issues, mainly because there are so many different translations. Actually I had forgotten the one you used - disenchantment, which is a beautiful term - no longer enchanted by the things of the world. But in my defense I only brought up one pali word.

As for 'stages of Insight' I presume you mean the Vipassananana with its 9 stages, nibbida being the 5th. If so I note that it comes from the Visuddhimagga or the Compendium of Philosophy (abhidhamma) neither of which I have ever been a fan of (though some of the abhidhamma structures are quite beautiful). Nibbida does appear in the suttas frequently enough, but always in more earthy contexts, and not as part of a list of tech. terms that have to be attained to insequence. Such lists are only guides. Personally I always use the Yasa story to intorduce nibbida - and this comes from the mahavagga of the vinaya pitaka, not the suttas, though I feel that its use there reflects the sutta useage very nicely. Thus I do not feel that

Without knowing what the nama-rupa-paricchedanana is, it is impossible to attain nibbida-nana

is entirely accurate - it tries to put nibbida and the Dhamma out of the reach of regular folk suggesting that they have to know what nama-rupa-paricchedanana is. Actually, I'm a keen student of Buddhism, and know a lot of Pali, but still had to give pause on that phrase, but I feel I do know about nibbida.

As for Tahn Chao Khun Payutto, I have been working through BuddhaDhamma in detail (slowly) and though he is extremely technical, he does flesh out all his texts with good examples which are easily related to daily life. Even so, his works will remain technical manuals for the very serious. Each to his own style though, and the more the better as we all need to make Dhamma something we can relate to in our different ways. Your approach and experience seems to bring to mind Bhikkhu Nirodho. My own approach is to concentrate on the suttas which I feel is the closest to the Buddha's actual words I can get, and on meditation, so far as I can. I was pleasantly suprised at how clear and earthy the suttas are and how far from commentary or abhidhamma based teachings they are. Admittedly, they are a bit stodgy to read one by one as I have done. Anyway nibbida arises in the suttas frequently and can be approached in many ways.

In the Simile of the Snake for instance we see nibbida arising upon reflecting on the suffering, impermanence, and non self of the Khandas (oops!) with which one becomes disenchanted, dispassionate, and liberated. Or in the Dighanakha sutta where one reflects on Feeling (vedana) (oops again), leading again to disenchantment, dispassion and liberation. In the Makhadeva sutta the list is expanded slightly to [good kingly pracitses that do not lead to] disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, peace, direct knowledge, enlightenment, nibbana. In the advice to Rahula sutta, reflection on the four elements leads to nibbida.

I know its not really impressive - anyone can do as I just did and look up nibbida in the index of the Majjhima Nikaya, and make quotes. But my point is that these terms, and the feelings they point to are not really exact stages, but can be considered in their wider aspects, in different ways that suit the individual. Also I feel that the nibbida that arises does not need to be made into anything special, and unattained - that it is a feeling that grows with all consideration of Dhamma. Most importantly, as I was trying to point out - it brings about a disentanglement with worldly things, that paves the way to the calm mind that develops wisdom and all the beautiful states such as loving kindness, compassion, etc.. I always feel there is too much emphasis on the negating side of Buddhism, and not so much on the development of the beautiful states. Also for many, the depressing side of disenchantment does not appear in force, as with giving up your childhood toys - you just are not interested in those things anymore.

As a further note, you mentioned

References to nibbida in the Tipitaka are usually linked to nibbida-nana, as a distinct stage of sati development, as far as I can tell, but your general use of the term to mean general world weariness, etc, seems perfectly fine to me.

As I have shown above, nibbida is not usually linked to sati directly (but of course sati is present in all of the examples). Thumbing through the Satipatthana sutta, it does not even get a mention (directly, though I agree implicitly).

But back to George's article. I personally do not really find myself fond of bringing Buddhism, which is based on nibbida with worldly things, into rap music. I wouldn't campaign against it (except here) but Buddhism is about bringing the mind to calm, dispassion, wholeness, and not about stimulation by rap music, computer games, Naomi Watts movies (see my other thread), nor endless wasted hours bickering on computer forums (guilty! ) I never liked the Happy Clappy Christians, of whom a good friend of mine is, and such an approach. Nor did I find that the Bishops catwalk fashion show lent any credibility or dignity to the Christian religion, and I would not like to see Buddhism go down the same road.

One interesting comment sabaijai made is:

Kayanupassana-satipatthana is the instant sati is mindful of the characteristics of rupa-paramattha-dhamma, which appears through the bodysense one at a time: rupa that is cold, heat, softness, hardness, tension or motion, not to watch rupa in a seated, reclining, standing or walking position

Which is not the position of most Mahasi Sayadaw interpretations of Sati Patthana, but perhaps we should start a new thread on that one. Was it a little dig slipped in showing a feeling that the common M. Sayadaw schools mis-interpret?

[sabaijai]

Sounds like we're pretty close on this (and both far away from the original topic!).

Personally I see as many real-world applications in the Abhidhamma -- as hard as it is to follow at first -- as in the Suttas. Others find the Suttas more to their liking. But rather than slavishly follow my conditioning, I try to accord each equal importance, along with the Vinaya (pending sufficient wisdom to do otherwise).

It's your prerogative to separate the Tipitaka as you do, though it sounds to me as though you do so based on aesthetics (ie, what appeals to you) more than on efficacy. Until we reach stream entry, all our choices are based on previous conditioning and habituation, aren't they?

Guess I'm a pretty boring student of Buddhism, just plodding along according to tradition, rather than a hip neo-Buddhist who picks and chooses among the pitakas as if browsing a buffet dinner. Not that you haven't reached your preferences through careful consideration, of course! I respect your preferences for the Suttas. You and I may find we totally swap places later on, who knows?

Obviously neither one of us has much nibbida when it comes to plonking away on the Internet ...