Where's The Verb

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

The following is an excerpt from an article about Phra Viharn Temple by Nithi Eewsriwong in the most recent Matichon Weekly (page 25):

หากไทยอยากร่วมหาประโยชน์จากการท่องเที่ยวปราสาทพระวิหารที่กลายเป็นมรดกโลก ไปแล้ว ความไว้วางใจและความสัมพันธ์อันราบรื่นกับกัมพูชาต่างหาก ที่จะทำให้ไทยเก็บเกี่ยวผลประโยชน์จากพระวิหาร ซึ่งแม้ไม่ใช่สมบัติของไทย แต่ตั้งชนอยู่กับเขตแดนไทย

This sentence or sentences are contained in a single paragraph so they should represent one coherent thought. If I try to break the sentence in to clause units, it seems to fall out as follows: (the attempt at the English is mine)

1. หากไทยอยากร่วมหาประโยชน์จากการท่องเที่ยวปราสาทพระวิหารที่กลายเป็นมรดกโลกไปแล้ว

If Thailand wishes to join with [Cambodia] and profit from tourism at Phra Viharn Temple which will become a World Heritage site,

2. ความไว้วางใจและความสัมพันธ์อันราบรื่นกับกัมพูชาต่างหาก

Not even considering the confidence and smooth relations with Cambodia

3. ที่จะทำให้ไทยเก็บเกี่ยวผลประโยชน์จากพระวิหาร

Which will allow Thailand to obtain some benefit from Phra Viharn

4. ซึ่งแม้ไม่ใช่สมบัติของไทย แต่ตั้งชนอยู่กับเขตแดนไทย

Which, even though it is not Thai property, it is, however, located right on the Thai border.

My difficulty is that I can't seem to find the main clause; these seem to be a set of subordinate clauses. Although I believe that I can create a set of English sentences to match the thoughts being expressed, my question is how should the sentence and paragraph be parsed out from a Thai perspective. Is there a main clause here masking as a subordinate clause? My guess would be that clauses 1, followed by 2 have the best chance of expressing the primary ideas the author is trying to communicate but with the words "หาก" and "ต่างหาก" respectively, both clauses have the gloss of being subordinate.

Thanks for your assistance.

Edited July 5, 2009 by DavidHouston

[aanon]

1. หากไทยอยากร่วมหาประโยชน์จากการท่องเที่ยวปราสาทพระวิหารที่กลายเป็นมรดกโลกไปแล้ว

If Thailand wishes to join with [Cambodia] and profit from tourism at Phra Viharn Temple which will become a World Heritage site,

suggest: 'has become', not 'will become'. perhaps 'seek to share in the benefits...'

2. ความไว้วางใจและความสัมพันธ์อันราบรื่นกับกัมพูชาต่างหาก

Not even considering the confidence and smooth relations with Cambodia

suggest: ...it is in fact (contrary to some other approach, eg. legal/military struggle) [mutual] trust and smooth relations with Cambodia...

3. ที่จะทำให้ไทยเก็บเกี่ยวผลประโยชน์จากพระวิหาร

...that will allow Thailand to obtain (reap) some benefit from Phra Viharn...

4. ซึ่งแม้ไม่ใช่สมบัติของไทย แต่ตั้งชนอยู่กับเขตแดนไทย

...which, although not Thai property, is located right on the Thai border.

Does this clear up the issue of clauses?

aanon

Edited July 5, 2009 by aanon

[mynextgig]

David, i am always incredibly impressed at your level of understanding of the Thai language, obviously many years of effort to get to that level.

I wonder, you often use extracts from Matichon Weekly in your posts on here, how much of the paper can you read and understand without needing to reference some learning material ? In comparison to reading an english language newspaper, how much longer would it take you to read and understand a similar length article in Thai ?

[DavidHouston]

คุณอานนท์ครับ

Thank you for your help in trying to elucidate Ajarn Nithi's sentence. Let me put together your suggestion to see if I can understand it:

"If Thailand wishes to seek to share in the benefits of tourism at Phra Viharn Temple which has become a World Heritage site, it is in fact mutual trust and smooth relations with Cambodia that will allow Thailand to reap some benefit from Phra Viharn which, although not Thai property per se, is located right on the Thai border."

Several comments:

1. As for tense in the first clause, I believe that the site is not yet a World Heritage site so "กลายเป็น" seems to refer to some future time.

2. I now see your point with respect to the phrase "ต่างหาก". The phrase in your view represents a distinction from an othewise unstated alternative. I was assuming that "good relations" was an alternative to the tourism benefit. Your assumption makes the second clause the main clause and well solves my problem.

3. Were I to translate the paragraph in earnest, I think I would make two sentences composed of the first two clauses together as a sentence and the second two in a separate sentence.

Thank you again; your reading is as usual spot-on.

1. หากไทยอยากร่วมหาประโยชน์จากการท่องเที่ยวปราสาทพระวิหารที่กลายเป็นมรดกโลกไปแล้ว

If Thailand wishes to join with [Cambodia] and profit from tourism at Phra Viharn Temple which will become a World Heritage site,

suggest: 'has become', not 'will become'. perhaps 'seek to share in the benefits...'

2. ความไว้วางใจและความสัมพันธ์อันราบรื่นกับกัมพูชาต่างหาก

Not even considering the confidence and smooth relations with Cambodia

suggest: ...it is in fact (contrary to some other approach, eg. legal/military struggle) [mutual] trust and smooth relations with Cambodia...

3. ที่จะทำให้ไทยเก็บเกี่ยวผลประโยชน์จากพระวิหาร

...that will allow Thailand to obtain (reap) some benefit from Phra Viharn...

4. ซึ่งแม้ไม่ใช่สมบัติของไทย แต่ตั้งชนอยู่กับเขตแดนไทย

...which, although not Thai property, is located right on the Thai border.

Does this clear up the issue of clauses?

aanon

[DavidHouston]

David, i am always incredibly impressed at your level of understanding of the Thai language, obviously many years of effort to get to that level.

I wonder, you often use extracts from Matichon Weekly in your posts on here, how much of the paper can you read and understand without needing to reference some learning material ? In comparison to reading an english language newspaper, how much longer would it take you to read and understand a similar length article in Thai ?

Khun Gig,

Thanks for the compliment but in fact I have been working on my Thai for about five years after my retirement, but I have been exposed to the language for many years prior to that. In fact, I am not a very smart student and my comprehension requires a lot of personal effort. I am so impressed by the large number of posters to this forum who have mastered so much of the Thai language is only a few years. Many have advanced formal educations in Thai while others have managed to develop their knowledge on their own. In any event, their accomplishments are a wonder to behold. That there are so many foreigners who are so serious about learning the national language and its regional dialects is a credit to the Thai people and their wonderful culture.

Although I read some Thai literature, I do tend to concentrate my reading effort on the daily and weekly newspapers for several reasons. First, newspaper writing tends to represent the best in contemporary, middle class, literate Thai language which is available to the general public. It is the same language which is available on television news shows and on radio on stations like Radio Parliament. It may not be the language of the street, the bar, or the rice fields and it certainly does not represent regional dialects but it does represent the language of middle class Bangkok Thais in schools, businesses, and communications.

Second, the Thai papers give us students of the language a view into the Thai political system, with all its joys and foibles, Thai business issues and practices, elements of the Thai social structure, and the aspirations and desires of ordinary Thai people. The Thai press is fairly free - with the major well-known exception - and a wide range of opinions can be found in a multitude of news articles and columns. The number of papers available to Thais on a daily basis is truly remarkable. Even more remarkably, many of these papers are available on-line, including Thai Rath, Siam Rath, and Matichon. The latter is actually a group of papers which includes Matichon daily, Matichon On-Line, Matichon Weekly, Khao Sot, Technology and Chao Baan. Weekly magazines include The Nation Weekly (in Thai) and Matichon Weekly; both of these require a paid subscription.

Don't be put off by the difficulty in understanding headlines; usually the prose in the articles themselves is much more accessible than the headlines indicate.

Finally, the people in this forum and others have been very helpful in helping us understand vocabulary, syntax, sentence structure, and cultural issues when difficulty arises in our reading. Absent an available teacher, this forum and others like it are the best alternatives for answering questions about this language.

I wish you the best of luck in your learning process.

[aanon]

hey david,

as for the tense on กลายเป็น, the other way to interpret ไปแล้ว here is as future perfect. that is, Nithi is speaking of Thailand sharing in benefits following World Heritage listing of the temple.

"If Thailand hopes to share in the benefits of tourism to a World-Heritage-listed Phra Wiharn temple..."

or

"If Thailand wishes to share in the benefits of tourism to Phra Wiharn temple once it has been listed as a World Heritage site..."

does the lead-up to this paragraph mention the legal/political/diplomatic/military machinations that have been going on (thus forming the unstated alternative)?

aanon

คุณอานนท์ครับ

Thank you for your help in trying to elucidate Ajarn Nithi's sentence. Let me put together your suggestion to see if I can understand it:

"If Thailand wishes to seek to share in the benefits of tourism at Phra Viharn Temple which has become a World Heritage site, it is in fact mutual trust and smooth relations with Cambodia that will allow Thailand to reap some benefit from Phra Viharn which, although not Thai property per se, is located right on the Thai border."

Several comments:

1. As for tense in the first clause, I believe that the site is not yet a World Heritage site so "กลายเป็น" seems to refer to some future time.

2. I now see your point with respect to the phrase "ต่างหาก". The phrase in your view represents a distinction from an othewise unstated alternative. I was assuming that "good relations" was an alternative to the tourism benefit. Your assumption makes the second clause the main clause and well solves my problem.

3. Were I to translate the paragraph in earnest, I think I would make two sentences composed of the first two clauses together as a sentence and the second two in a separate sentence.

Thank you again; your reading is as usual spot-on.

1. หากไทยอยากร่วมหาประโยชน์จากการท่องเที่ยวปราสาทพระวิหารที่กลายเป็นมรดกโลกไปแล้ว

If Thailand wishes to join with [Cambodia] and profit from tourism at Phra Viharn Temple which will become a World Heritage site,

suggest: 'has become', not 'will become'. perhaps 'seek to share in the benefits...'

2. ความไว้วางใจและความสัมพันธ์อันราบรื่นกับกัมพูชาต่างหาก

Not even considering the confidence and smooth relations with Cambodia

suggest: ...it is in fact (contrary to some other approach, eg. legal/military struggle) [mutual] trust and smooth relations with Cambodia...

3. ที่จะทำให้ไทยเก็บเกี่ยวผลประโยชน์จากพระวิหาร

...that will allow Thailand to obtain (reap) some benefit from Phra Viharn...

4. ซึ่งแม้ไม่ใช่สมบัติของไทย แต่ตั้งชนอยู่กับเขตแดนไทย

...which, although not Thai property, is located right on the Thai border.

Does this clear up the issue of clauses?

aanon

Edited July 5, 2009 by aanon

[DavidHouston]

hey david,

as for the tense on กลายเป็น, the other way to interpret ไปแล้ว here is as future perfect. that is, Nithi is speaking of Thailand sharing in benefits following World Heritage listing of the temple.

"If Thailand hopes to share in the benefits of tourism to a World-Heritage-listed Phra Wiharn temple..."

or

"If Thailand wishes to share in the benefits of tourism to Phra Wiharn temple once it has been listed as a World Heritage site..."

does the lead-up to this paragraph mention the legal/political/diplomatic/military machinations that have been going on (thus forming the unstated alternative)?

aanon

No, in fact, the immediate prior paragraph is:

สมมติว่ามีการทบทวนจริง (ซึ่งเป็นไปได้น้อยมาก) ก็ไม่ได้หมายความว่า ไทยจะมีอำนาจต่อรองในกรณีพื้นที่พิพาทเพิ่มขึ้นแต่อย่างไร เพราะหากคณะกรรมการโลกยอมทบทวน กัมพูชาก็ไม่ต้องห่วงเรื่องแผนพื้นที่กันชน จึงสามารถส่งเรื่องให้เป็นคดีในศาลโลกได้เหมือนกัน

"Supposing that there really would be a reconsideration (which is unlikely), this does not mean that Thailand has the power to negotiate in the event that the disputed territory should expand in any way. Because if the World [Heritage] committee does reconsider [this issue], Cambodia need not fear that a buffer zone [would be created]. [The Cambodians] would in any event be able to send this issue to the World Court."

I think Nithi's discussion is about the immediate legal issues regarding the Thai position in requesting reconsideration of the status of the temple mount, not the larger questions of the legal, political, diplomatic, and military considerations. However, I do like your concept of the tense in question being the "future perfect", that is ". . . once it has been listed. . . ". Great thought.

[aanon]

hey david,

as for the tense on กลายเป็น, the other way to interpret ไปแล้ว here is as future perfect. that is, Nithi is speaking of Thailand sharing in benefits following World Heritage listing of the temple.

"If Thailand hopes to share in the benefits of tourism to a World-Heritage-listed Phra Wiharn temple..."

or

"If Thailand wishes to share in the benefits of tourism to Phra Wiharn temple once it has been listed as a World Heritage site..."

does the lead-up to this paragraph mention the legal/political/diplomatic/military machinations that have been going on (thus forming the unstated alternative)?

aanon

No, in fact, the immediate prior paragraph is:

สมมติว่ามีการทบทวนจริง (ซึ่งเป็นไปได้น้อยมาก) ก็ไม่ได้หมายความว่า ไทยจะมีอำนาจต่อรองในกรณีพื้นที่พิพาทเพิ่มขึ้นแต่อย่างไร เพราะหากคณะกรรมการโลกยอมทบทวน กัมพูชาก็ไม่ต้องห่วงเรื่องแผนพื้นที่กันชน จึงสามารถส่งเรื่องให้เป็นคดีในศาลโลกได้เหมือนกัน

"Supposing that there really would be a reconsideration (which is unlikely), this does not mean that Thailand has the power to negotiate in the event that the disputed territory should expand in any way. Because if the World [Heritage] committee does reconsider [this issue], Cambodia need not fear that a buffer zone [would be created]. [The Cambodians] would in any event be able to send this issue to the World Court."

I think Nithi's discussion is about the immediate legal issues regarding the Thai position in requesting reconsideration of the status of the temple mount, not the larger questions of the legal, political, diplomatic, and military considerations. However, I do like your concept of the tense in question being the "future perfect", that is ". . . once it has been listed. . . ". Great thought.

Well, that preceding sentence does seem to be about one legal/technical approach, against which Nithi could be posing his alternative. On the other hand, he may just be responding to a generally understood 'current direction'.

Comments on your most recent translated passage (yes, I realise that you just came up with it quickly to respond to my question):

* เพิ่มขึ้น attaches to อำนาจ, rather than พื้นที่.

* try to retain the cause-effect links in the section from หากคณะกรรมการโลกยอมทบทวน onwards, ie. ...if the World Court agrees to a revision, then ...., and Cambodia would therefore...

the Phra Viharn issue seems like such a complex and messy one. thanks for filling in a small part of the void in my knowledge on the issue.

all the best.

[RickBradford]

To add to David's points, I am a relative newcomer to Thai but I also find reading the daily newspapers very instructive.

Apart from the sentence structure, there are slang words and nicknames, interesting ทับศัพท์ (Thai transliterations of foreign words) and so on.

To make it easier, I started with the sports pages, where, if I see a picture of Maria Sharapova, I'm confident of the general area of words I'm going to see (I think it's formally called domain-specific language).

So, today we find that โด้ (doh) is used as shorthand for the footballer Cristiano Ronaldo, ไอ้หน้าบาก is a fairly uncivil term for Franck Ribery, and นายกฯ หน้าหยก is a popular way to describe the current Thai PM, in op-ed pages.

Another interesting section is the cartoons; they're hand-written, so quite challenging to read, but the words are usually simple, and offer some insight into current Thai events:

So, from today's cartoon in the paper:

Kid: สีเหลืองแดงมีแต่ทำให้สังคมแตกแยกไม่เหมือน (Red and yellow colours only cause society to be divided), สีขาวดำสังคมมีแต่ความสุข (black and white colours, society only has happiness).

Skeptical dude: อะไรคือสีขาวดำ (What is there that is black-and-white?)

Kid: หมีแพนด้า (Panda!)

Thus neatly tying together the current political divide with the national obsession with แพนด้าน้อย, the $100-million ball of fluff at Chiang Mai Zoo.

Thai television news can be okay, because you get visual cues; I confess I can't concentrate on the Thai soapies, which some people regard as an excellent resource.

[mynextgig]

To add to David's points, I am a relative newcomer to Thai but I also find reading the daily newspapers very instructive.

Apart from the sentence structure, there are slang words and nicknames, interesting ทับศัพท์ (Thai transliterations of foreign words) and so on.

To make it easier, I started with the sports pages, where, if I see a picture of Maria Sharapova, I'm confident of the general area of words I'm going to see (I think it's formally called domain-specific language).

So, today we find that โด้ (doh) is used as shorthand for the footballer Cristiano Ronaldo, ไอ้หน้าบาก is a fairly uncivil term for Franck Ribery, and นายกฯ หน้าหยก is a popular way to describe the current Thai PM, in op-ed pages.

Another interesting section is the cartoons; they're hand-written, so quite challenging to read, but the words are usually simple, and offer some insight into current Thai events:

So, from today's cartoon in the paper:

Kid: สีเหลืองแดงมีแต่ทำให้สังคมแตกแยกไม่เหมือน (Red and yellow colours only cause society to be divided), สีขาวดำสังคมมีแต่ความสุข (black and white colours, society only has happiness).

Skeptical dude: อะไรคือสีขาวดำ (What is there that is black-and-white?)

Kid: หมีแพนด้า (Panda!)

Thus neatly tying together the current political divide with the national obsession with แพนด้าน้อย, the $100-million ball of fluff at Chiang Mai Zoo.

Thai television news can be okay, because you get visual cues; I confess I can't concentrate on the Thai soapies, which some people regard as an excellent resource.

David and Rick, thanks for your responses, and definately agree with you that these sources provide a much more current view of the thai language.

I can understand most news and related television dialogue pretty well, but then my comprehension has always been considerably better than my reading ability and so when i try to read the newspaper i find myself dwelling on words that i dont know when if i were able to absorb the whole sentence in the way i do when listening it would probably make sense.

I would agree that the soaps are actually a good way to learn spoken Thai. That is if you can put up with the constant screaming and wailing and that fact that the plot will almost certainly involve an evil long lost sister and someone getting pushed down the stairs....

The simple fact is that i need to concentrate on my reading ability, which unfortunately i am less motivated by than speech and comprehension. We all learn in different ways !!!

[ElZorro]

I would agree that the soaps are actually a good way to learn spoken Thai. That is if you can put up with the constant screaming and wailing and that fact that the plot will almost certainly involve an evil long lost sister and someone getting pushed down the stairs....

There is a Japanese soap opera every Tuesday and Wednesday between 20:20 and 21:10 on TVThai (ITV), dubbed in Thai with Thai subtitles. The last two were quite sophisticated, clever and well-humoured, very different from the ones you describe. There is a new one starting this Tuesday.