Why Christian Religion Always Collides With Buddhism.

[Datsun240Z]

I think the Christian believe is the most logical one, if you die, you die. There is no such thing as an afterlife or second life which are both common in Buddhist and Allah. I use to think very logical. If there is a god, there must be scientific proof. So far we only know a bit about the universe.

I think you'll find most Christians believe in (or at least hope for) after-life of some kind.

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

[norwayeagle]

Most people are slaves of their ego.... and consider their own beliefs to be the correct ones.

With something like religions, which are a matter of belief, there will always be friction.

There can only be one ultimate truth and each believes that their religion contains that truth.

I am Buddhist and am certain that Buddhism contains that truth, but cannot prove it to anybody except myself.

All religions are a matter of personal practise, and when one gains insights into the ultimate truth, whether though meditation or prayer, one cannot show these proofs to anyone else.

Each must work to their own salvation.

In addition, it might be useful to remember that ALL religions are 'man-made'. The reason for making-up these religions was to CONTROL large groups of (gullible) people. This practice has obviously worked out really well, just look at the religions of this world . . . . . . and all the kilings which have been a direct result ! ! !

Me ? I try believing in myself and I'll tell you; that IS a fulltime religious effort !

Hehe, yes, pretty much same same ....

[Xangsamhua]

I think the Christian believe is the most logical one, if you die, you die. There is no such thing as an afterlife or second life which are both common in Buddhist and Allah. I use to think very logical. If there is a god, there must be scientific proof. So far we only know a bit about the universe.

I think you'll find most Christians believe in (or at least hope for) after-life of some kind.

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

Sorry Dats, we're probably using the term differently. By after-life I mean heaven, purgatory etc, not rebirth.

[Datsun240Z]

I think the Christian believe is the most logical one, if you die, you die. There is no such thing as an afterlife or second life which are both common in Buddhist and Allah. I use to think very logical. If there is a god, there must be scientific proof. So far we only know a bit about the universe.

I think you'll find most Christians believe in (or at least hope for) after-life of some kind.

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

Sorry Dats, we're probably using the term differently. By after-life I mean heaven, purgatory etc, not rebirth.

Ok , I think when it comes to heaven, all religions believe in that.

[sabaijai]

I think the Christian believe is the most logical one, if you die, you die. There is no such thing as an afterlife or second life which are both common in Buddhist and Allah. I use to think very logical. If there is a god, there must be scientific proof. So far we only know a bit about the universe.

I think you'll find most Christians believe in (or at least hope for) after-life of some kind.

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

What's heaven then?

I think you'll find a wide variety of views on death, afterlife, heaven, purgatory and so on even within the Catholic school.

[Datsun240Z]

I think the Christian believe is the most logical one, if you die, you die. There is no such thing as an afterlife or second life which are both common in Buddhist and Allah. I use to think very logical. If there is a god, there must be scientific proof. So far we only know a bit about the universe.

I think you'll find most Christians believe in (or at least hope for) after-life of some kind.

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

What's heaven then?

I think you'll find a wide variety of views on death, afterlife, heaven, purgatory and so on even within the Catholic school.

Heaven is a men made name for " The Universe" .

[canuckamuck]

Buddhism as a philosophy has many attributes which are complimentary and reflected in Christian ideals. However Buddhism as it is practiced by the masses in Thailand is entirely at odds with both Christian theology and with much of Buddhism as well. It is Animism dressed up to look like Buddhism.The relentless fascination with the supernatural (ghosts, demons, and luck) that makes it a belief system of its own.

The deal breaker between the two traditional systems is: in Christianity the believers come to realize that they cannot achieve their own salvation. In Buddhism, salvation is the responsibility of the individual.

Edited July 8, 2009 by canuckamuck

[canuckamuck]

Heaven is a men made name for " The Universe" .

The Universe is a man made name for the universe too.

[Xangsamhua]

I think the Christian believe is the most logical one, if you die, you die. There is no such thing as an afterlife or second life which are both common in Buddhist and Allah. I use to think very logical. If there is a god, there must be scientific proof. So far we only know a bit about the universe.

I think you'll find most Christians believe in (or at least hope for) after-life of some kind.

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

What's heaven then?

I think you'll find a wide variety of views on death, afterlife, heaven, purgatory and so on even within the Catholic school.

True. And the question of H_ll is a very lively issue among clergy and lay people. There's no problem for Catholics holding whatever view they like, really, but if you publicly and continually contradict the bishop or the official teachings of the Church you can expect to be disciplined. Theologians have to be careful what they write.

[Xangsamhua]

The deal breaker between the two traditional systems is: in Christianity the believers come to realize that they cannot achieve their own salvation.

I think this is still a contested view, Canuckamuck, and it was pretty much at the heart of the Reformation. The Augustinian view was taken up pretty strictly by the Calvinists and the Lutherans (though Melanchthon didn't buy it altogether). The Catholics after the Council of Trent (1545-63) went for a compromise in which "good works", together with God's grace, could have effect as a mechanism for salvation. The latter position still doesn't equate to Buddhist self-reliance, however, as prayer and sacramental participation were necessary (as they were for Protestants also), and these actions imply dependence on a source or agent outside oneself.

[canuckamuck]

I was trying to clear the air about specific differences in the two world views.

Christianity: Jesus allowed Himself as a sacrifice for man's sin. Creating a bridge to eternal life with God. Faith is the key requirement.

Buddhism: Nirvana is the goal of practice, Bad Karma must be shed through right living. No supernatural assistance is available. Except perhaps for Mahayana Buddhists.

[Xangsamhua]

I was trying to clear the air about specific differences in the two world views.

Christianity: Jesus allowed Himself as a sacrifice for man's sin. Creating a bridge to eternal life with God. Faith is the key requirement.

Buddhism: Nirvana is the goal of practice, Bad Karma must be shed through right living. No supernatural assistance is available. Except perhaps for Mahayana Buddhists.

Thank you for clarifying.

[agent69]

Heaven is a men made name for " The Universe" .

The Universe is a man made name for the universe too.

hahah, was gonna say some similar thing.

What's The Universe? How big is it? What is it floating on? Are there more than just one cause some theoretical physicists believe there are more than one.

[oldsparrow]

In Thailand I think they have contradiction with the Thai culture in general more than with the Buddhism.

I don't know about the aspet of foreigner Christian in Thailand but had some view of Thai Christianity.

Proportion of Christian, both Catholic and Protest., never reach 1% of the polulation. I think because of their inflexibility and too tight society.

At high school, 1 of my closed friends was Christian so I had been to the Presbiterial (?) Church for 3-4 years for observation and chatting with friends although I was not converted.

Like other Thai social group, they form up their own tight society and in Thai style they involved the family aspect of the member. Even more than most Thai group I can say because they aslo want to convert ofter families' member.

From my PERSONAL observation:

The members:

1. People from Christian family. Some from foreign parents. They are Christian born and like the Buddhist born Thai can be varied.

2. The christian partners. Some who married to the strict christian had to converted some with the less strict just come along for the partner's social function.

3. The trouble people who want new hope in life or new social group. They tend to become very close to the group and sometimes stict christians.

4. People with other reason like me.

The views:

1. As they have different core value/truth of live from general Thai society they express something that is not so confrom with the Thai value in general. ie. the value of grattitude. From real experience, another close friend who also went to the church for fun like me was now converted and during the process he tried to convince himself of what sound annoying to me. He got a new job, the decisive factor was that his ex-boss used his personal connection to convince the new office to admit him. Then he was attibuted EVERYTHING on this fortune to the grace of GOD who accpet his pray. It was also annoying to hear a young guy sharing: "My dad went ot have meditation again, it's the work of Satan!"

2. Belief of the REAL TRUTH of universe and everything lead to over-confidence to confront other natural value of Thai society. I doubt that they have sun-conscious like "I KNOW the truth of the universeis THIS so why I am not right on this small social ethique." Because they live among people of different belief they push the border line too much and IMPOSE thy explanation too much on too many matters.

I became alienated to both friends, the christian born and the converted one and also have no more contact with some people I got to know at the church. I can't trust them in social relation and personal response. My mother got sick of cancer and died from it 2 years ago. I tell them nothing about this for there is high possibility that they would tried to comfort me by saying, "God know what is best for her." "God takes care of her now." this is too much and I know they believe the non believer like my mother would sure be in bad place.

I think I don't have real believe in any religion and here I have no arguement on the truth of any believe, just sample of the Thai Chirstians's behavior I have witnessed.

PS: The strict and active ones in Thaialnd are Protest. The Catholic are ery moderade if we don't ask the Thai people almost can't recognise them. The Protest. are the ones who protest Davinci Code folm. stick up advertisement on the trees and distribute ad. paper.

Edited July 9, 2009 by oldsparrow

[bonobo]

PS: The strict and active ones in Thaialnd are Protest. The Catholic are ery moderade if we don't ask the Thai people almost can't recognise them. The Protest. are the ones who protest Davinci Code folm. stick up advertisement on the trees and distribute ad. paper.

Wow! It is pretty ironic that it was Thai Protestants who protesed the DaVinci Code as that movie somewhat castigated the Roman Catholic Church.

As always, Oldsparrow, you bring a valuable Thai viewpoint to many, many threads here on TV.

[BigSnake]

To many Religion Nut in the land of smiles, I for one give them all a smile and a wide berth, if Christian/Buddhism is your thing please do it and enjoy, but don't try to converse me or drag me into it

[oldsparrow]

PS: The strict and active ones in Thaialnd are Protest. The Catholic are ery moderade if we don't ask the Thai people almost can't recognise them. The Protest. are the ones who protest Davinci Code folm. stick up advertisement on the trees and distribute ad. paper.

Wow! It is pretty ironic that it was Thai Protestants who protesed the DaVinci Code as that movie somewhat castigated the Roman Catholic Church. As always, Oldsparrow, you bring a valuable Thai viewpoint to many, many threads here on TV.

You're welcome krub.

I think it's because the Catholic church in TL have a tie with Vaitcan which is more moderade at present. The Pros. in TL operate mostly on their own and feel the need to be very active. In fact the 1% Christian population has been their goal for a long time. However, they are too close a society. The non believers can tag along as long as they like but the strict rules offered are accpeted only by a few. Another factor is too much presentation of Christianity as assylum for the troubled person. Sometime it seems as if it's ONLY for the troubled and this draws negative impression.

[camerata]

One reason Thai Evangelist Christians "collide" with Buddhists is because they go around saying Buddhism is the work of Satan and/or the Buddha is a demon. This is what the brainwashed Christian Thai kids at Evangelist international schools tell Buddhist Thai kids at the same school. I happened to meet the principal of one of these schools recently. For a guy who thinks the Earth was created 6,000 years ago and all dinosaur bones are fakes, he seemed remarkably normal.

If you are a tiny minority and go around demonizing the majority, you are going to do a lot of colliding, for sure.

[rockyysdt]

Buddhism as a philosophy has many attributes which are complimentary and reflected in Christian ideals. However Buddhism as it is practiced by the masses in Thailand is entirely at odds with both Christian theology and with much of Buddhism as well. It is Animism dressed up to look like Buddhism.The relentless fascination with the supernatural (ghosts, demons, and luck) that makes it a belief system of its own.

The deal breaker between the two traditional systems is: in Christianity the believers come to realize that they cannot achieve their own salvation. In Buddhism, salvation is the responsibility of the individual.

I suspect that Christianity (as seen today) was also hijacked just as Thai Buddhism was by Animism.

It seems to me that Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Kabbalism, & Judaism all sprung from the same source.

There are many instances of meditation, silent retreat, & contemplation by several biblical characters including Moses, Jesus & Paul.

The early Christian church is steeped in contemplative practice.

Jacob Boehme a 17th century Christian who practiced retreats reported that he saw & knew the being of all things. He wrote this imaginary dialogue to capture his inspiration.

Scholar: How may I come to the super sensual life, that I may see God & hear him speak?

Master: When thou canst throw thyself but for a moment into that where no creature dwelleth, then thou hearest what God speaketh.

Scholar: Is that near at hand or far off?

Master: It is in thee, and if thou canst for awhile cease from all thy thinking & willing, thou shalt hear unspeakable words of God.

Scholar: How can I hear when I stand still from thinking & willing?

Master: When thou standest still from thinking & willing of self, the eternal hearing, seeing, & speaking will be revealed to thee, and so God heareth & seeth through thee. Thine own hearing, seeing, & willing, hindereth thee, that thou dost not see nor hear God.

Scholar: Wherewithal shall I see & hear God, being He is above nature & creature?

Master: When thou are quiet or silent, then thou art that which God was before nature & creature, and whereof He made thy nature & creature. Then thou hearest and seest with that therewith God saw and heard in thee before thy own willing, seeing, & hearing began.

I think experiencing God is also the responsibility of the individual.

Whether there is God or not doesn't really matter.

It's all down to interpretation & packaging & can only be answered through personal self experience.

I prefer to think that Nirvana & God are synonymous.

Edited July 9, 2009 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

I prefer to think that Nirvana & God are synonymous.

I think we've had topics about this before. "Nirvana" did not create the universe!

[rockyysdt]

I prefer to think that Nirvana & God are synonymous.

I think we've had topics about this before. "Nirvana" did not create the universe!

That's covered by my preface:

"I suspect that Christianity (as seen today) was also hijacked just as Thai Buddhism was by Animism."

[camerata]

"I suspect that Christianity (as seen today) was also hijacked just as Thai Buddhism was by Animism."[/i]

I think it's the other way round. Christianity hijacked some pagan rituals. Thai Buddhism absorbed or co-existed easily with pre-Buddhist animism and Brahmanism.

In Japan, Buddhism actually hijacked Shinto and held the Shinto gods hostage, claiming they were merely avatars of various bodhisattvas. That's why you see so many Shinto shrines in the grounds of Buddhist temples.

[phetaroi]

Spot on!

If we look for similarities among Religions,we can find many.IMO they are designed to bring harmony among different people and countries.

I agree. I remember the late Anwar Sadat saying that in terms of Islam and Christianity that there are actually more similarities than differences. It's just that people accentuate the differences.

[phetaroi]

In addition, it might be useful to remember that ALL religions are 'man-made'. The reason for making-up these religions was to CONTROL large groups of (gullible) people. This practice has obviously worked out really well, just look at the religions of this world . . . . . . and all the kilings which have been a direct result ! ! !

To be honest with you, I find that to be a simplistic cliche that requires little, if any, thought.

[Xangsamhua]

Buddhism as a philosophy has many attributes which are complimentary and reflected in Christian ideals. However Buddhism as it is practiced by the masses in Thailand is entirely at odds with both Christian theology and with much of Buddhism as well. It is Animism dressed up to look like Buddhism.The relentless fascination with the supernatural (ghosts, demons, and luck) that makes it a belief system of its own.

The deal breaker between the two traditional systems is: in Christianity the believers come to realize that they cannot achieve their own salvation. In Buddhism, salvation is the responsibility of the individual.

There are many instances of meditation, silent retreat, & contemplation by several biblical characters including Moses, Jesus & Paul.

The early Christian church is steeped in contemplative practice.

Jacob Boehme a 17th century Christian who practiced retreats reported that he saw & knew the being of all things. He wrote this imaginary dialogue to capture his inspiration.

Scholar: How may I come to the super sensual life, that I may see God & hear him speak?

Master: When thou canst throw thyself but for a moment into that where no creature dwelleth, then thou hearest what God speaketh.

Scholar: Is that near at hand or far off?

Master: It is in thee, and if thou canst for awhile cease from all thy thinking & willing, thou shalt hear unspeakable words of God.

Scholar: How can I hear when I stand still from thinking & willing?

Master: When thou standest still from thinking & willing of self, the eternal hearing, seeing, & speaking will be revealed to thee, and so God heareth & seeth through thee. Thine own hearing, seeing, & willing, hindereth thee, that thou dost not see nor hear God.

Scholar: Wherewithal shall I see & hear God, being He is above nature & creature?

Master: When thou are quiet or silent, then thou art that which God was before nature & creature, and whereof He made thy nature & creature. Then thou hearest and seest with that therewith God saw and heard in thee before thy own willing, seeing, & hearing began.

I think experiencing God is also the responsibility of the individual.

Whether there is God or not doesn't really matter.

It's all down to interpretation & packaging & can only be answered through personal self experience.

Some quotes from another 17th century mystic - the Polish Bishop Angelus Silesius:

I am like God and God like me. I am as large as God. He is as small as I. He cannot above me nor I beneath him be.

(Speaking of the Soul) A spark without its fire, a drop without its sea,

Without reincarnation what more, pray, wouldst thou be?

God, who made all the world and may destroy it too,

Cannot without my will make my rebirth come true.

I know that God no hour without myself can live.

If I die, God himself his precious life must give.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Xangsamhua

[phetaroi]

Actually it is your post that betrays a profound ignorance and naivety of Buddhist teaching. Buddhism as originally taught by Gautama is not a religion in the same dogmatic sense as the theistic religions. In fact, it has often been argued that it is not a religion at all but rather a logical philosophical explanation of reality or "truth".

I don't think you are on the right track at all. It depends entirely on how you define a religion. For example, I think a very good definition is, "A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth."

As is the case with many "religions", Buddhism as practiced by the masses in Thailand with its amulets, spirit houses and ceremonies has little or nothing to do with what was taught by the founder of the theory. Buddhism teaches that there is no self, no everlasting soul and certainly no ever-present all-knowing "God". What it does teach is independent thinking, putting one's own beliefs to the test through critical self examination and that contentment and happiness are found through one's own efforts to extinguish unwholesome desires and greed.

Here you make what I feel is the fatal mistake that contradicts: You essentially say that "Buddhism is", but then say it is an independent thinking religion. Additionally, you cannot abbreviate the beliefs of Buddhism (or any other religion) down into three sentences. That's folly.

[phetaroi]

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

I think you had a very poor teacher. The Apostolic creed states:

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the world to come. Amen."

[phetaroi]

To many Religion Nut in the land of smiles, I for one give them all a smile and a wide berth, if Christian/Buddhism is your thing please do it and enjoy, but don't try to converse me or drag me into it

I don't believe anyone dragged you into this part of the forum or this conversation. You inserted yourself.

[Datsun240Z]

Heaven is a men made name for " The Universe" .

The Universe is a man made name for the universe too.

hahah, was gonna say some similar thing.

What's The Universe? How big is it? What is it floating on? Are there more than just one cause some theoretical physicists believe there are more than one.

Yes, you guys are right here

[Datsun240Z]

As I am teached as a Catholic Christian, there is no such thing as afterlife.

I think you had a very poor teacher. The Apostolic creed states:

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

And the life of the world to come. Amen."

Maybe it's practiced different, in other countries. When I go to church here, the pastor states different things, he can talk about ; the father, jezus, god, the holy one. Never been talked about afterlife, he states the soul goes to god for an eternal life.