Kingpower Talks Back!

[samran]

---------------

Nothing to do with street cred as you quaintly put it. The point I was making was that I am getting feedback from Thais and not farang. I can't alter the fact that I am the only farang in this area - that is just a fact.

As for humour. Your comment that you are "embassrassed" had me rolling in the aisles. But the joke would have been better if you had typed "embassrarsed" would it not?

No prizes for having a thai passport but first prize for showing off.

"obnoxious"

Have I spelt that correctly?

How about "pedant"....

Edited July 9, 2009 by samran

[jackspratt]

4. I and others have provided facts and sources. You have not.

Having looked back through the thread, the only "fact" I can see that has come from your keyboard is that you are the only farang in a soi - and I guess we have to take your word for that.

Wait, maybe you meant this fact from the other thread, referring to this thread:

caf post Yesterday, 2009-07-08 11:44:04

But Benjie has opened a new thread to continue his ramblimgs (sic)

Ooops!!! The OP was Oneman

[PattayaParent]

I hadn't heard of this story before, so I had not created any preconceptions about King Power. I watched the video and definitely saw a woman put a wallet in her purse. I wouldn't say they were professional about it, but the couple looked like they knew what they were doing. I read through this thread and came down on the side of King Power. However, after searching Google News for the original story and having read that, I am even more convinced that King Power is not in the wrong here. But that doesn't mean the couple were not victimized as well, because they most certainly were.

The couple got caught shoplifting. In any other country, they would probably have missed their flight and had to pay a legitimate fine. But in Thailand, the police held them until they came up with the bribe of 8,000GBP. After five days, they paid this amount and the police released them saying there was no evidence against them.

King Power was doing what any shop owner would do with shoplifters, bring them to the police. However, the real criminals are the Thai police. I think the police are raising their fee as tourism dwindles. Fewer tourist mean fewer shoplifters and fewer shoplifters mean fewer people to "fine". In order for the police to maintain a certain level of income, this means the fines have to increase. Soon companies such as King Power will hold the thieves and threaten to take them to the police unless they pay for the goods they stole, and the thieves will be better off doing so.

Ultimately, this will not hurt tourism at all. This is a non-story outside of Thailand. The couple think they can make a big stink about it since they have the letter from the police stating there was no evidence. But by their own admission, that letter was purchased for a price, so is completely worthless. They want to try to get their bribe money back from the police, which won't happen. In my opinion, this is just a case of one set of thieves fighting with another, and who really cares about that?

An incredibly sensible post on the subject.

[stumonster]

I can't be asked to read all the previous pages...

One question:

The couple had already checked their luggage in (since they were in the duty free area). So they could only be carrying hand luggage. Is KP really trying to make us believe that this couple took a change of clothes in their hand luggage so that they could change clothes after stealing a solitary wallet, just in case they were caught on security cameras?

Simon

I would think the "outerwear" would maybe refer to a sports jacket and cardigan .

I doubt they knew they had been caught until the security people started to approach the womans table.

they might have been sitting apart after the womans obsessive compulsive disorder had surfaced again at a very inopportune time and place which had caused an argument.

For all the people who have doubt about the video actually showing the woman placing the wallet in her bag

- there seems to be no argument that the wallet did not go missing.

- the wallet allegedly was found in the rubbish bin outside a toilet which had been visited by the man.

if this is just a sting , why would the wallet not have just been found on the woman - why the need to get all elaborate - why the need to even attempt to implicate the man ?

4. I and others have provided facts and sources. You have not.

only farang for miles - have you done a stint as a ladyboy in obsessions to round out your thai experience ?

[Hawk]

Yes, everyone has seen a woman put something in her shoulder bag and hastily exit the store but the burning question is,

WHO IS SHE?

[soic]

I really don't see why this should deserve it's own topic since the video and the explanation has been showed AND discussed into great detail at the main topic.

It's also not the point; the point is -guilty or not guilty- the extortion of enormous amounts of money from the people involved, apart from the fact that they were kept against their will, missed their plane and the amounts are not proportionate to the products involved, whether KP is/was involved or not.

The cases are absurd and would create ENORMOUS bad publicity for the shop owners and (airport/police) staff in every other major airport in the world.

It's very bad publicity -again- for Thailand.

LaoPo

I usually find myself in agreement with most of your posts, but this time I have to disagree. From what I saw of the footage and read of the statements, those people were thieves. They stole the property of someone else; in this case King Power. In my opinion, they deserved what they got. When it comes to theft, it shouldn't matter whether it's a dime or a dollar; the only thing limiting a thief is what he/she thinks they can get away with. If they're willing to steal a dollar, you can bet that they'd steal $1,000 if they thought they could get away with it.

Maybe it's just the way I was raised; but I cannot tolerate a thief. I have no sympathy for a thief what-so-ever. It's tourists like them and other vermin that give the decent farang a hard road to travel.

[soic]

So if you were on a jury - and with people like you around I can see the reasons why some people are against a jury system - you would not question the timing of the kp letter, take no account of kp's history, would not question the video, would ignore the letters showing innocence given to them by the police ( and reproduced on this forum for all to see); but you would consider anything that you could twist to justify " hanging them high"

Not only are you still being judge and jury, you now clearly show you are taking the brief for the prosecution. By selectively quoting you are not showing or admitting all the other facts. Exactly what prosecution lawyer would do of course. To say you only show one side because you need to keep the podt size is down won't fool many.

For a balanced and less naive view look at citizen33 serpico and petterrgaga's posts. No bias. No histrionics. Just giving their personal opinions having lived here a while.

Why are you "trying" the case now? They didn't get a jury trial because they PAID not to have one. I get sick and tired of hearing about people buying their way out of a crime and then saying they were victimized. I'm not saying that some don't get scamed; it happens in every society. What I'm talking about are the thieves, murderers, pedophiles and rapists, that pay big bucks, hire huge law firms to get out of some crime that they commited and then scream; "I am a victim", that's BS. Don't talk to me about passing judgement; they bought their judgement. If they were so innocent, despite the damning video... they should have held their moral ground and then brought in the press. That bought and paid for letter from the police is garbage. They're getting the kind of trial they paid for, and that's the court of public opinion. The video and finding the wallet speaks for itself... I have no pity for a thief.

[Serpico]

What are the proper procedures for processing a shoplifter in Thailand?

Hauled off to prison, terrorized, set up by a fake lawyer, pay 450,000 baht cash to the Police?

[thaihome]

What are the proper procedures for processing a shoplifter in Thailand?

Hauled off to prison, terrorized, set up by a fake lawyer, pay 450,000 baht cash to the Police?

Ithink you are hauled off to the police station on your way to remand prison to wait many months to go to trial. If you have the money you can make bail and probably pay your way out it. How much depends on much you have and it matters little if you are Thai or foreign. Pretty much the same or worse in virtually every developing or third world country.

Ever hear the saying, you ain't in Kansas anymore Dorothy? Wonder what would happend if they tried to nick something in the duty free shop in Riyadh or Lagos?

TH

Edited July 9, 2009 by thaihome

[jackspratt]

Yes, everyone has seen a woman put something in her shoulder bag and hastily exit the store but the burning question is,

WHO IS SHE?

Well according to this incredibly well informed and highly observant poster, it cannot possibly be Ms Xi:

Look at the video closely, this is not the same couple, the guy is a stand in and the woman is the actor. Neither ever look up or around to see if they are being watched, surely they can see the camera looking straight at them. The woman looks younger, walks like someone in her 20's not like a person in their 40's, the hair is longer and is being used to cover her face and the body is slimmer, the breasts appear smaller than Xi's are.

[soic]

Yes, everyone has seen a woman put something in her shoulder bag and hastily exit the store but the burning question is,

WHO IS SHE?

Well according to this incredibly well informed and highly observant poster, it cannot possibly be Ms Xi:

Look at the video closely, this is not the same couple, the guy is a stand in and the woman is the actor. Neither ever look up or around to see if they are being watched, surely they can see the camera looking straight at them. The woman looks younger, walks like someone in her 20's not like a person in their 40's, the hair is longer and is being used to cover her face and the body is slimmer, the breasts appear smaller than Xi's are.

For all the would be Sherlock's. where's the motive for producing the fake tape? too much buck for the bang, and the potential for even worse adverse publicity would make the production unprofitable. Then there's the bicep's on the lady... those are not the sleek, taut and tanned arms of youth, nor is the flat sole shoe suffle the gait of a teeny bopper. Her thighs and dress are not that of a much younger girl either. For those looking to make a case; anything can be made to look like anything. To me, it looked legitimate, a snatch and grab and of course they would not look directly into a camera; most people wouldn't be that stupid. A thief is a thief and they deserve what they get. As for the other not being complicit; he clearly affirmed her selection of wallets. Where's Perry Mason or Matlock when you need them?

[monkfish]

Took the video into editing software and saved uncompressed not to lose any quality here are some screen shots.

The video quality is just to bad to even decide if it is them or not.

Without better quality the video is pointless, unless they were caught in possession of course.

It appears in the photo from the times article that the woman has her hair parted in the center,

but in the video it seems to be on one side.

In the last picture as the woman is leaving seems she has something black in her left hand.

(wallet may be?) its black anyhow.

P.S. you don't see her put the wallet in the bag so its not evidence.

[Serpico]

There will always be shoplifters.

The question is, was this handled properly or are the Police playing games and terrorizing people.

A threat of a year in jail?

Is that a proper sentence or a special just for tourists?

What happens to Thai person that takes something?

Were talking an International Airport here.

[bdenner]

Yes, everyone has seen a woman put something in her shoulder bag and hastily exit the store but the burning question is,

WHO IS SHE?

Well according to this incredibly well informed and highly observant poster, it cannot possibly be Ms Xi:

Look at the video closely, this is not the same couple, the guy is a stand in and the woman is the actor. Neither ever look up or around to see if they are being watched, surely they can see the camera looking straight at them. The woman looks younger, walks like someone in her 20's not like a person in their 40's, the hair is longer and is being used to cover her face and the body is slimmer, the breasts appear smaller than Xi's are.

OK Jack, as the guy asked "Who the f#ck is she?". Give us your humble opinion as to WHY she is "Ms Xi". Where is the resemblance? --- once again to be discussed over another beer!

[jackspratt]

There will always be shoplifters.

The question is, was this handled properly or are the Police playing games and terrorizing people.

No Serpico - the question on both this thread, and the previous one (as it started), has always been "is there reasonable cause to accuse KP of being complicit in the setting up and scamming of two innocent English tourists".

And the answer is clearly NO.

I don't believe I have read a single post on either thread which suggests the Thai police and others are not capable of scamming once the "shoplifting" parties have been correctly handed over.

[jackspratt]

Yes, everyone has seen a woman put something in her shoulder bag and hastily exit the store but the burning question is,

WHO IS SHE?

Well according to this incredibly well informed and highly observant poster, it cannot possibly be Ms Xi:

Look at the video closely, this is not the same couple, the guy is a stand in and the woman is the actor. Neither ever look up or around to see if they are being watched, surely they can see the camera looking straight at them. The woman looks younger, walks like someone in her 20's not like a person in their 40's, the hair is longer and is being used to cover her face and the body is slimmer, the breasts appear smaller than Xi's are.

OK Jack, as the guy asked "Who the f#ck is she?". Give us your humble opinion as to WHY she is "Ms Xi". Where is the resemblance? --- once again to be discussed over another beer!

In the video, she is sufficiently like Ms Xi, as he is like Mr Ingram, and there seems little doubt they have nicked a wallet.

The only other photo of Ms Xi that appears to be in existence to the public at large is that shown on the earlier thread, when they were interviewed by the Times Online.

There is nothing in that photo (particularly her different hair style) which dissuades me that the person in the video cannot be her.

Add to that KP's plausible story of the events, and the downside for KP if it were shown that they had staged an elaborate hoax, employing actors etc, and I am happy to accept they (the Ingrams) did it.

[ucantbeserious]

obviously, the real issue here, as others have pointed out, is the lack of due process i.e. systemic and condoned criminal behaviour by the police in Thailand.

this story gives me flashbacks to when i was arrested once for drunk driving (seriously!! i couldn't believe it either).

i was locked in police station cells and basically held incommunicado until i came up with the bail,

i was not allowed to make a phone call, requests to phone my embassy were ignored.

bail was set at 40K baht, this, i am told this can be any amount the police choose, a thai person would maybe get 10K baht bail.

to get out i had to pay the middleman, who sits by the cells doorway, 10K baht and she put up the bail (yeah right!), and surrender my passport,

i had to trust a policeman with my bank card and PIN number and pay him 1K baht to go to an ATM for the 10K cash.

story went on, was fined 3K baht by court then extorted again by the immigration police.

so, i can understand how it feels to held by corrupt police with guns, you just have to get out, or you may rot somewhere for months.

in a country with a real legal system the police should have been arrested and charged with serious offences.

to all the "holier than thou" posters here, well it could happen to you!

noone really disagrees with "if you do the crime, you do the time",

but when the 'time" is totally arbitrary and calculated by people with guns intimidating you, its a worse crime in itself.

p.s. not long before my experience, a thai couple were arrested and held for a month in these same cells,

released without being taken to a court (i guess they could not make the bail, and the police had no evidence of a crime),

then they were arrested again very soon after and locked up again,

unable to pay bail (i guess) the woman gave birth to a child in the cells.

this case was taken up by the Thai lawyers council, but i don't know any outcome.

BTW. we are not surprised that the corrupt King Power company still is there when they were supposed to be kicked out for corrupt behaviour.

[Oberkommando]

As they were not apprehended leaving the store with the stolen goods there is no case to answer.

CCTV footage alone is not sufficient to convict in a proper court of law.

End of.

[jackspratt]

As they were not apprehended leaving the store with the stolen goods there is no case to answer.

CCTV footage alone is not sufficient to convict in a proper court of law.

End of.

Based on those observations, you really have no idea of how an investigation and evidence works

But you are right on one point - there is no case to answer, because they have chosen (rightly or wrongly) to buy their way out of a court case.

I reckon you should give it a rest.

[Mario2008]

As they were not apprehended leaving the store with the stolen goods there is no case to answer.

CCTV footage alone is not sufficient to convict in a proper court of law.

End of.

According to the statement from KP there was other evidence, as they found the wallet.

[catmac]

As they were not apprehended leaving the store with the stolen goods there is no case to answer.

CCTV footage alone is not sufficient to convict in a proper court of law.

End of.

According to the statement from KP there was other evidence, as they found the wallet.

Or, rather, they said they found the wallet! Conveniently, they didn't find it on the suspects or see who dropped same in the bin, assuming that it was dropped in the bin. To me, it looks like KP are just desperately trying to cover their backsides. No stolen property found on the 2 suspects, their clothes didn't match the video (so out comes the "changed clothes" fantasy), and no supporting evidence of any kind that the 2 people arrested had anything at all to do with the incident in KP's shop.

Could it be that KP are simply throwing out some red herrings, so that if the sh*t really does hit the fan, they can simply say that it was just a case of mistaken identity?

[monkfish]

As they were not apprehended leaving the store with the stolen goods there is no case to answer.

CCTV footage alone is not sufficient to convict in a proper court of law.

End of.

According to the statement from KP there was other evidence, as they found the wallet.

My first thought would be did they find it on the suspects?

[jpolten]

As they were not apprehended leaving the store with the stolen goods there is no case to answer.

CCTV footage alone is not sufficient to convict in a proper court of law.

End of.

According to the statement from KP there was other evidence, as they found the wallet.

My first thought would be did they find it on the suspects?

If K.P are fabricating evidence to cover their rear's,false statments,fake cctv,posting this cctv on the web was a big mistake for them.

Any expert with this sort of tech could tell if it's fake or if it's really that couple!

Surely if the british couple have seen this and (if innocent) knowing this is a fake would be seeking a big court date with K.P to

get their £8000 back and then some!!!

Just can't see K.P digging a bigger hole for themself's only to find an expert filling the hole with them in it!

Don't believe that K.P had anything to do with what happened after the police were involved!

[Hawk]

Does anyone have any idea why they supposedly threw the wallet in the bin?

Because if they had the idea of retrieving it later, they would not be able to as the cleaners are forever emptying the bins at the airport to make sure some idiot doesn't place a bomb in one like was done years ago by the Pattani crowd.

[Hawk]

Does anyone have any idea why they supposedly threw the wallet in the bin?

Because if they had the idea of retrieving it later, they would not be able to as the cleaners are forever emptying the bins at the airport to make sure some idiot doesn't place a bomb in one like was done years ago by the Pattani crowd.

[stumonster]

Does anyone have any idea why they supposedly threw the wallet in the bin?

because you could then dazzle with this logic

As they were not apprehended leaving the store with the stolen goods there is no case to answer.

and be sure you were safe from prosecution

cleaners are forever emptying the bins at the airport to make sure some idiot doesn't place a bomb in one like was done years ago by the Pattani crowd.

or maybe covered by video cameras - do you think there are only cameras in the KP stores at the airport ? the place is infested with them , so the ingrams will appear on a few recordings.

[Oberkommando]

It's apparent that some posters do not understand law nor understand that evidence in a court of law is used by the prosecution to prove their case.

It should not be in a proper functioning legal system, although often is the case in Thailand, up to the accused to prove their innocence. It is up to the prosecution to build a case, and prove beyond any reasonable doubt, that the accused is guilty.

That's how it works. They have not been able to do so in this case to my knowledge.

That the couple were not apprehended while leaving the store with the item, that the cctv footage is inconclusive, that the couple were apprehended in the food court in different clothing, that the couple were not found in possession of the item, and many other factors, ensure the prosecution may not have had sufficient evidence to get a prosecution.

Very plausible scenario, hence the subsequent extortion and lack of due process.

Quite simple and any decent lawyer would have p*ssed this case if the prosecutors were even foolish enough to take it to court.

[JohnGotti]

Funny thread.

[Datsun240Z]

All I know is that somebody is enjoying 8000 quid

[stumonster]

It's apparent that some posters do not understand law nor understand that evidence in a court of law is used by the prosecution to prove their case.

Quite simple and any decent lawyer would have p*ssed this case if the prosecutors were even foolish enough to take it to court.

the only evidence you know of is some video that has been compressed and uploaded to the internet , a statement from KP and and interview in the Times.

do you really think that is it ?

with all your years in Thailand do you think the Thai police will probably have a signed confession ( in thai of course ) ?