Even For A Nation Of Thieves.it's Never Too Late

[Scrubber]

This excellent article goes on to say that there are four Thai characteristics that inhibit development and they are corruption (the subject of the article) and also laziness, ostentatiousness, and jealousy. I would add androgeny to that list. I am not sure how to explain the way this impacts development but I see a problem. On the one hand it is good that Thailand does not have issues regarding sexual preferences that can lead to violence in many other countries. But, on the other hand, some kind of traditional manliness is helpful regarding productivity, management and national defense. A huge number of young Thai men -if not gay - are very feminine with bouffont hair and girly shirts. (No wonder older farang men are popular.) Where else do you walk down the street and your head spins when you realize a woman who just walked past or the woman selling som can on the street is actually a man. There is another thread here that says that kathoeys got their own bathrooms in a school. Fine, except at some point this kind of break from the standards of the rest of the world will have an impact on Thai business. Maybe someday the entire world will be like Thailand. Maybe an unusually high percentage of men all over the world will openly want to be women. But for now Thailand stands alone as far as I know. This androgeny - along with monks - results in artificial skewing of the ratio of men to women. I believe this is partially explains for the high rate of prostitution and the popularity of farang men. Thai women suffer the consequence of an imbalance of acceptable Thai male partners - and they "settle". COMMENTS - -

Unless you're gay, lesbian or bisexual.

[TheLaughingMan]

" Even For A Nation Of Thieves.it's Never Too Late"

Forum rules:

8) Not to post extremely negative views of Thailand or derogatory comments directed towards all Thais.

Even if its a quote from BKK Post ?

There's plenty of moderation without needing YOU to help out, k thanks bye.

[brahmburgers]

The OP is about Thai accepting corruption. It's true. Ask the average Thai what harm comes from corruption, and they probably won't be able to come up with an answer, other than: "sometimes bad people get rich." They need to understand that corruption is like tooth decay, it weakens society on many levels.

It makes things cost more. (rigged bids, etc).

It enables poorly qualified people to rise in the ranks, while better qualified people are left behind

It contributes to poorly built infrastructure

It contributes to dangerous products

It enables corrupt people to get rich (poster boy: Thaksin)

It encourages lying and cheating

It exacerbates depression - in the people who are unfairly penalized or impoverished.

....the list could go on much longer.

Schools need to show kids that getting more money by corrupt means is wrong and those who use devious means for self-enrichment will get caught and punished severely. Unfortunately, the messages being shown today (in Thailand) are the opposite. Cheats and liars like Thaksin become fabulously rich, and therefore are honored and emulated by those who worship wealth.

[brahmburgers]

I'm posting twice in a row because I have some added points to mention.

In real estate, it's common for an agent to get a listing for, let's say, 4 million baht, and list it for 5 million.

If it sells for the higher price, the agent can put an extra 1 million in his pocket, along with 3% commission paid by the seller.

A Thai person would look at that and think, "wow, the agent just got an added 1 million baht, I'm jealous."

He/she wouldn't think there's a loser in that scenario - the loser being the buyer, who paid 25% more than the actual asking price.

With practically no second hand markets in Thailand, all Thais and hill tribers are brainwashed in to thinking that whenever they buy anything, it must be new/retail. So even when a hill tribe person making just Bt.3,000/month (if lucky enough to even have a job), goes to buy a motorbike, he will buy brand new Honda, on time payments. He'll wind up paying about double the retail sales price by the time the smoke clears, months later. That, to me, is criminal. Below are three (of hundreds of) things that need to change:

#1 the Thai gov't should encourage 2nd hand markets (like thrift stores, etc) as much as possible. They need to banish the superstitious thinking that buying 2nd hand carries other peoples' karma / pee (ghosts) / etc. Best of all would be flea markets, bulleting boards, classified ads in newspapers, thrift stores, garage sales, yard sales ....none of which exist in Thailand. For example, every time I visit the States, I stuff my suitcases with clothes, shoes, jackets, and toys (for presents) from thrift stores, because such things are VERY MUCH CHEAPER there than Thailand.

#2. They need to put a cap on inflated % rates that dealers are allowed to charge to big ticket items like motorbikes. It may be possible to file an anti-trust suit against bike sellers, though I doubt such a law has ever been enforced in Thailand.

#3 Schools should allow last years books to be used for the new year. They should lighten up on uniform requirements. Both those things would save poor folks half their yearly income - which they wind up spending on getting their kids outfitted with school stuff - ALL OF WHICH HAS TO BE NEWLY BOUGHT EACH YEAR AT RETAIL.

[Jingthing]

All good points, Mr. B, but as we know Thais are much more offended by being preached to by outsiders than by their own internal corruption. Yes, I think this country is hopeless (which BTW is not the same thing as saying I don't enjoy living here).

Edited July 11, 2009 by Jingthing

[livinthailandos]

I read this article while having my lunch in the bangkok post, knew it was only a matter of time before it got posted, Lets be realistic Thailand has changed & not changed at all, we can all complain, whine realistically its a waste of time, As long as certain things are still in place thailand will probably remain a 3rd world country / developing country for many decades to come

[hansnl]

How about those zillions of 'Toms' that came out of the woodwork in the last few years..?

They definitely outnumber gays in my eyes...

Just looking at the female population of the university in Khon Kaen, the number of girls (trying to be) manly, is awfully big.

I am not in the business of making a problem of anyone's sexuality, but I get a feeling that the number of young people in Thailand " in the wrong body", as they say, seems to be very big, I think maybe more than 10-15 %.

I just wonder, is it "en vogue", or real?

[Datsun240Z]

You and the likes, who try to influence the Thai ways, are the reason why farang are becoming increasingly impopular in Thailand, why we will never have the right to own land here, and why farang never will be granted the same rights as Thai. Thais do not like the fact that we are here if we do not embrace the Thai culture full heartedly, they merely only tolerate you because they can make money out of you. No wonder you dont like their ways.

This is a major reason why Thais and Thailand haven't capitalised on their assets and chances to stablise/improve their standard of living for the masses (which they are obviously troubled about as they wouldn't be facing off in their red and yellow armies if all was hunky dory in the realm). Given that most of the development that has taken place in Thailand has been the adoption of western solutions - be it transport in the shape of cars, buses, trains planes and motorbikes, shopping in the form of convenience stores, supermarkets and department stores, eating in the shape of fast food outlets, international cuisine or clothes in the shape of dress shirts, ties and suits, dresses, t-shirts, sneakers, jeans and education in the way of EPs and international schools, Thailand has realised that it can be advantageous to pay heed to those who are non-Thai. Kop khun

In other words, they like it, but are to stubborn as a nation itself.

[tomyamgoong]

How about those zillions of 'Toms' that came out of the woodwork in the last few years..?

They definitely outnumber gays in my eyes...

Just looking at the female population of the university in Khon Kaen, the number of girls (trying to be) manly, is awfully big.

I am not in the business of making a problem of anyone's sexuality, but I get a feeling that the number of young people in Thailand " in the wrong body", as they say, seems to be very big, I think maybe more than 10-15 %.

I just wonder, is it "en vogue", or real?

Your estimate is quiet accurate : What you see is the result of Thai tolerance towards gays/lesbians. In Thailand these people are more/all visible. Please read this British survey http://www.avert.org/gay-people.htm and this American Population Survey : http://www.avert.org/gay-people.htm . The writers of the surveys ask you to consider the fact that many applicants do not admit their sexual attraction to the same sex, not even to themselves in an anonymous survey (its a cultural thing ). Your estimate congruates with the figures from farangland, so I am not surprised. I think you can apply that to every country, as well as to animal life. It is a perfectly normal figure.

On a side track : Modern marketeers recognised these numbers years ago when they "discovered" this target group. The gay portion of society is one of the largest unique groups with a single identifyable property, and an income far above average... Straight people are harder to target because they come in many colors, have more different voting habits, many beliefs, incomes varying from extremely high to extremely low. Gay people unite, and do not dicriminate as much amongst their own ranks. That makes advertising for gay people cheap and highly effective.

Maybe this knowledge is being kept in the closet for the mainstream because politically inconvenient, hence your surprise. Remember the Ford advertising campaign in the US? Why do you think Ford wanted to persue the path they had chosen? They did not want to loose big time sales to the competition. Most car brands specifically target certain semi-expensive niche models to gays these days.

[crocodilexp]

This topic is misleading. Thailand is definitely not nation of thieves.

Cheating and stealing are two completely different issues.

In Thailand, cheating is generally accepted, as long as you hand over the money voluntarily. Most people do not cheat on a daily basis (in fact, they're surprisingly honest), but when it comes to business (larger amounts), completely shameless cheating is order of the day -- Thais don't even blink at situations which would cause great embarrassment in the west.

Minor example: a Thai friend was about to sell a 2000 baht product. The customer agreed but said that he has only 1000 baht now, will go to their car to get other 1000, and asked to take the product along. When she refused to hand it over, the guy promptly produced another 1000, not even a blush or pretending to go to the car to fetch the money. Apparently, the infamous "losing face" does not occur when caught out in a blatant act of cheating. This for an average, clean-cut, middle-class person, not an underclass scam artist or a hardened businessman.

Stealing, however, is socially shunned. A relevant poll would reflect this. Thais don't closely guard their personal belongings (except in very crowded / high circulation / tourist areas). Leave your backpack for a few minutes, and it'll still be there. Not nearly so in some other places, India comes to mind, where they steal from you while you're looking at them.

A thief caught out in public would likely be beaten up or worse, a cheater would certainly not (i.e. buyer beware).

[billsykes]

How about those zillions of 'Toms' that came out of the woodwork in the last few years..?

They definitely outnumber gays in my eyes...

When I asked my wife why their were so many Toms/Lesbians now in Thailand? she replied saying in was "Fashion" ha TIT

[reenatinnakor]

This topic is misleading. Thailand is definitely not nation of thieves.

Cheating and stealing are two completely different issues.

In Thailand, cheating is generally accepted, as long as you hand over the money voluntarily. Most people do not cheat on a daily basis (in fact, they're surprisingly honest), but when it comes to business (larger amounts), completely shameless cheating is order of the day -- Thais don't even blink at situations which would cause great embarrassment in the west.

Minor example: a Thai friend was about to sell a 2000 baht product. The customer agreed but said that he has only 1000 baht now, will go to their car to get other 1000, and asked to take the product along. When she refused to hand it over, the guy promptly produced another 1000, not even a blush or pretending to go to the car to fetch the money. Apparently, the infamous "losing face" does not occur when caught out in a blatant act of cheating. This for an average, clean-cut, middle-class person, not an underclass scam artist or a hardened businessman.

Stealing, however, is socially shunned. A relevant poll would reflect this. Thais don't closely guard their personal belongings (except in very crowded / high circulation / tourist areas). Leave your backpack for a few minutes, and it'll still be there. Not nearly so in some other places, India comes to mind, where they steal from you while you're looking at them.

A thief caught out in public would likely be beaten up or worse, a cheater would certainly not (i.e. buyer beware).

Cheating or stealing why is this article even interesting? It's a stupid article. Thailand is not a nation of thieves. It's more a nation of fat ugly smelly balding fuc_kwit tatooed white men who can't get laid in their own less thieving, less cheating, aryan supremacist, more developed gun toting, knife wielding country, so they come and take advantage of 2nd world girls who need a way out by pretending to be in love with the aforementioned white <deleted> who's too obese to be able to get a 2nd look in their own land of the free and uncorrupt.

Why is it that when a lesser developed country looks for ways to help themselves its called a nation of corruption, cheating or stealing but when UK MP's and members of the Senate from the United States of We Will Kill You for Oil perform their scams on expenses and kick backs it is called exploiting loopholes?

So many posters here slag of Thailand whenever there is a piece of negative non-news item, why are you even here? If you don't like it then go back to your own country and try and have sex with someone your own age and is more your body shape.....oh sorry, you wont be able to do that, because those women dont need to be exploited and not looking for a way out since its so perfect in your own country you have to go to Philippines or Thailand or Vietnam and get your suckee fuc_kee for 10 dollars but in fact you think they really love you for who you are and not your passport. If the government's attitude is to exploit other countries for their natural resources - off course their redneck electorate will go abroad and do the same thing.

You have to be a pretty thick dumb fuc_k if you're going to compare Thailand to a country like Japan or Korea and ask why hasn't Thailand turned out like these westernised puppet states? All the money that went into re-developing Japan after the war was western money and western conglomerates getting all the contracts and eventual interest payments. Same thing with Korea and making sure they didnt end up like the commie bastards of the north, the west ploughed the money in but only if they played by western rules. Thailand being the proud mofos that they are entitled too for being the only asian country that has never been dominated by an outside power - have never required such western help in exchange for selling their soul to achieve what the west have. They will do it in their own time.

Anyway - that's my rant over! If you really want to see a nation of thieves then go and live in Philippines, Nigeria or South Africa for 6 months and then you will really see that this is a bullshit article.

I'm not thai, am british by the way.

[reenatinnakor]

How about those zillions of 'Toms' that came out of the woodwork in the last few years..?

They definitely outnumber gays in my eyes...

Just looking at the female population of the university in Khon Kaen, the number of girls (trying to be) manly, is awfully big.

I am not in the business of making a problem of anyone's sexuality, but I get a feeling that the number of young people in Thailand " in the wrong body", as they say, seems to be very big, I think maybe more than 10-15 %.

I just wonder, is it "en vogue", or real?

Compare to this to the number of fat fuc_k farangs in Thailand that are also "in" the wrong body every night!!! In their own country they would be "in" the body of a similarly obese jerry springer guest - but in thailand......

[slapout]

Well 're' you seemed to have picked up a pretty discouraging outlook toward your fellow expat/tourists. I guess you have none of the character traits you so apply described. I noticed you left out profane so I guess this is a desirable trait in your thinking?

[hansnl]

@Churchill (original poster) Great posting !

@sheikxhoni - Finally, someone who 'tells it like they see it'. I couldn't agree more that the men here need to be more like 'men',. respecting their women - not degrading and abusing them, they need to loose the girlie shirts and tight black jeans, lead their families and be men of their words.

@ robblok, christcourt, norwayeagle - if you don't see a problem with the Katoys,.. you need to open your eyes. Being something you're not, whether it's a masculan-wanna-be-male lesbian or a danty-feminine-lady-boy is damaging to any countries social standards. (norwayeagle - you especially need to seek some help my friend)

@ verydumbubba - well, I think your name says it all... well chosen.

@ IanForbes - get real. Yes, averages and statisitics can be misleading.. but come on, the point of this post is that people here don't see what the effects of some of their actions are. See below ..

@ geriatrickid - great point about the corruption... and well said. It's sad that Thailand is continued to be viewed as a struggling-3rd-world-country.. when it could be so much more.. and I do NOT mean more commercialized, I mean more Thai,.. more of what the Thai people are 'said' to stand for..

@ tomyamgoong - first of all, learn how to write in ENGLISH, on an english board. Secondly, your simply ignorant if you can sit there and honestly say that there's not rroom for serious improvement in these two areas - corruption and feminine men. If that is truly your position, then maybe it is you who is in the deepest hole of all..

@ Scott - you have some good points.. and I think mainly, making sure this ISN'T a 'senseless debate between the superiority of men to women or vice versa'.. is very valid. However, no one said anything about superiority.. the OP and second poster are referring to CHARACTER.. the character of men in this country is, by all definitions in the world, has been very acceptable to be feminine and corrupt - maybe not in the same person mind you . They are two extremes, the katoy character is denying the responsibility of being a supporter and leader by being feminine and 'soft', the corrupt character is excercising a power and control kick to take advantage of people to their own benefit.. both are equally damaging.

@ JR Texas - couldn't have said it better myself.. parents need to take responsiblity for educating their children about morals, ethics, etc.. Gotta start somewhere..

The truth of the matter is Thais could care less if the government is corrupt as long as it improves their way of life... this shows a MAJOR opportunity for improvement in the thought processes of these people. Thailand is a beautiful country, with a wonder culture and great people.. they deserver to live a better life - even if they don't know what that means, what it 'looks like' or how to get there. Take, for example, the concept of accepting a corrupt government as long as it improves your personal way of life.. sounds great.. EXCEPT, when YOU end up on the other end of that corruption.. not so fun. Not working out as you had planned. Hence, a little education on the effects of some of their actions and choices, especially when intended to help improve that same way of life, should be offered when possible. Couple this with the widely acceptable femininity of males.. and you have a social development problem.. which you can see effects of almost anywhere in Thailand. If the men here were more honorable, respectable and 'took care of business',.. the women wouldn't be flogging themselves at every foreigner that walks by. It's not like this in other coutries, EVEN WHERE PROSTIUTION IS LEGAL! So, you can't put it off on, 'They just do it to make money, etc.'. No, they do it for lack of a decent selection in the local 'dating pool' !

I would apologize for the rant, or if this offends someone, but to be blunt... I don't mind if it offends you, as long as you can see that there is truly a problem here,.. that maybe you, I or someone we know will have the opportunity to help these wonderful people truly improve their lives and relationships. All in all... I think the intention of everyone on this board, aside from those less endowed with mental ability, is to HELP Thailand.. not hurt it.

Cheers

I wonder what Devine Power gave you the right to "HELP" Thailand. I smell imperialism.

You should have your nose checked.. this ISN'T about me, or you.. it's about helping others.. Heck, even if you want to be totally self seeking here do it for that fact that what goes around comes around.. either way,.. you got to look at the intention here.. the orig poster and second poster have valid points.. whether you choose to see that or not, is your decision. And for what it's worth, half of my family is Thai..so, yes, I am familiar with the Thai and the Farang side of these issues.. and it does effect everyone..

5555! Quiet an achievement I dare say. Many people's families on this forum are half Thai I am married to a Thai, for years already I live a Thai life amidst my Thai family of 12, in a totally Thai extremely modest fishermans' family accommodation far south, where I am happy to see no more than one farang every week.

Its' a chosen life : I still own 2 businesses, a house and an appartment in Europe, and a villa in Phuket, but I sleep on the floor with 16 others in a small one room house with no glass in the windows. All because I love my Thai family and friends more than anything else.

By the way, you don't live in Thailand, you live on Phuket that is referred to by Thai as "farang country". I have many Thai friends on Phuket, but I am sad to have to admit they all have become all half farang. It was such an alien place to my inlaws when i first showed them around. They see it as our(farang) province, and after the first days of excitement they didn't really like what they saw after all. They wanted to go home early.

For the record : At home there are many katoey too, they have been a part of Thai society for a thousand years. The Phuket katoey were not the reason the inlaws didnt like the island. But the -in their Thai eyes -loud, impolite, arrogant, bad mannered, bad mouthed, disrespectful and agressive farang were. It was all I heard during the ride home, and i was ashamed to be farang too. The inlaws were curious, have seen Phuket now, and will probably not return.

You and the likes, who try to influence the Thai ways, are the reason why farang are becoming increasingly impopular in Thailand, why we will never have the right to own land here, and why farang never will be granted the same rights as Thai. Thais do not like the fact that we are here if we do not embrace the Thai culture full heartedly, they merely only tolerate you because they can make money out of you. No wonder you dont like their ways.

If you want to turn this place into "little America", why did you come here in the first place? Why did you not retire to Texas? You are farang, and have no right to judge or interfere. That would be imperialism.

Like you I live in a Thai family, be it not so basic as you describe your life.

Unlike you, I have only my Thai life.

But your life being basic Thai, not true, you still live halfway Europe and Thailand

However, you paint a general picture about farang, just as easily as farang could paint a general picture of the Thai.

Both are wrong!

My wife has seen some of Europe, I have discussed with her about my beliefs and ideas, and indeed, she knows that some farang ideas are better as Thai beliefs, while I admit that a lot of the Thai ideas and beliefs are better.

The part you write after "You and the likes" paints it all.

If Thailand wants to stand alone in a changing world and wants to cling to the old and proven concepts, it will find out that the world will turn away from Thailand, and that would be very bad for the poorer part of the population.

The fact of not being able to own land in Thailand places it in a bind, because the surrounding countries tend to have less trouble with that.

That I don't have the same rights as Thai people is a fact I can live with, I am not Thai.

I most certainly do not want to change Thailand into a "little America or Europe"

You, on the other hand, you enjoy your local life in Thailand, and from time to time you go back to the hectic of Europe.

And from that position you think you can generalise all farang.

You are very wrong, most farang live in Thailand because they want to live here, and behave themselves

They do not want to change Thailand into US/Europe.

But, unlike you, they see the wrongs of Thailand very clearly.

Unlike you they see that those wrongs are not only wrong to the farang, but most of all to the Thai people.

Unlike you, they understand that parts of Thailand have changed into something that is not Thailand any more.

And only because so many Thai people earn a living for themselves and their families.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

The reasons why farang are becoming increasingly impopulair, as you say, might be very different from what you think.

Although, personally, I don't get that idea for myself.

Now ask your Thai family, if they could choose between the life now have and a life with a European/US flavour including the money, what will they do?

[hansnl]

How about those zillions of 'Toms' that came out of the woodwork in the last few years..?

They definitely outnumber gays in my eyes...

Just looking at the female population of the university in Khon Kaen, the number of girls (trying to be) manly, is awfully big.

I am not in the business of making a problem of anyone's sexuality, but I get a feeling that the number of young people in Thailand " in the wrong body", as they say, seems to be very big, I think maybe more than 10-15 %.

I just wonder, is it "en vogue", or real?

Compare to this to the number of fat fuc_k farangs in Thailand that are also "in" the wrong body every night!!! In their own country they would be "in" the body of a similarly obese jerry springer guest - but in thailand......

Sir, you are a badmouthed bore.

Your use of the English language has a perverse leaning to the four letter word you use so freely.

The way you behave in writing is just the reason why English people get such a bad press wherever they go.

[reenatinnakor]

How about those zillions of 'Toms' that came out of the woodwork in the last few years..?

They definitely outnumber gays in my eyes...

Just looking at the female population of the university in Khon Kaen, the number of girls (trying to be) manly, is awfully big.

I am not in the business of making a problem of anyone's sexuality, but I get a feeling that the number of young people in Thailand " in the wrong body", as they say, seems to be very big, I think maybe more than 10-15 %.

I just wonder, is it "en vogue", or real?

Compare to this to the number of fat fuc_k farangs in Thailand that are also "in" the wrong body every night!!! In their own country they would be "in" the body of a similarly obese jerry springer guest - but in thailand......

Sir, you are a badmouthed bore.

Your use of the English language has a perverse leaning to the four letter word you use so freely.

The way you behave in writing is just the reason why English people get such a bad press wherever they go.

You haven't disagreed with anything I have said. The truth hurts doesnt it? But don't take it personally :-)

[reenatinnakor]

Well 're' you seemed to have picked up a pretty discouraging outlook toward your fellow expat/tourists. I guess you have none of the character traits you so apply described. I noticed you left out profane so I guess this is a desirable trait in your thinking?

You are correct. I'm under 40 - not obese and my gf is not 30 years my junior.

Can people try and disagree with the points I have made rather than impersonate Mary Whitehouse or anyone that reads the Daily Mail.

[mj9945]

<br />555555 sheick <img src="style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /><br /><br />I can not imagine that your post is anything other than a hoax, congrats, I almost bought it.<br /><br />If its not, i wonder from what country you were born form, and how you mind works, because your thinking seems an auwful lot more primitive than that of the fine people of this upstanding society of Thailand.<br /><br />The statesmen of many "developed" countries seek to improve the tolerance and acceptance of its' own citizens towards these minorities in their respective countries, and see Thailands' Bhuddist driven tolerance as a premium example of how we could achieve that.<br /><br />So if your post is not a joke, you better pack your firestones and stone axe, and move to an even deeper hole in the ground.<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Although the terms used were a little harsh-I wish it were a joke.

Unfortunatly the only joke is on thailand although at least this time there seem to be some

recogniton of the actual true state of this nation .

I have been away quite some time, but I am glad to see that at last some people ,local ones are starting to wake and ask questions about certain people and organisations that run the show.

Thailand is a country in denial.

Thailand is a country with so much potential, yet a really poor record of human rights, an almost laughable state of corruption, a very racist outlook towards, well, almost everyone including themselves

Perhaps with some more honest reflection there could be some improvement.

[mj9945]

<br />

@Churchill (original poster) Great posting !<br /><br />@sheikxhoni - Finally, someone who 'tells it like they see it'. I couldn't agree more that the men here need to be more like 'men',. respecting their women - not degrading and abusing them, they need to loose the girlie shirts and tight black jeans, lead their families and be men of their words.<br /><br />@ robblok, christcourt, norwayeagle - if you don't see a problem with the Katoys,.. you need to open your eyes. Being something you're not, whether it's a masculan-wanna-be-male lesbian or a danty-feminine-lady-boy is damaging to any countries social standards. (norwayeagle - you especially need to seek some help my friend)<br /><br />@ verydumbubba - well, I think your name says it all... well chosen.<br /><br /><br /><br />@ IanForbes - get real. Yes, averages and statisitics can be misleading.. but come on, the point of this post is that people here don't see what the effects of some of their actions are. See below ..<br /><br />@ geriatrickid - great point about the corruption... and well said. It's sad that Thailand is continued to be viewed as a struggling-3rd-world-country.. when it could be so much more.. and I do NOT mean more commercialized, I mean more Thai,.. more of what the Thai people are 'said' to stand for.. <br /><br />@ tomyamgoong - first of all, learn how to write in ENGLISH, on an english board. Secondly, your simply ignorant if you can sit there and honestly say that there's not rroom for serious improvement in these two areas - corruption and feminine men. If that is truly your position, then maybe it is you who is in the deepest hole of all..<br /><br />@ Scott - you have some good points.. and I think mainly, making sure this ISN'T a 'senseless debate between the superiority of men to women or vice versa'.. is very valid. However, no one said anything about superiority.. the OP and second poster are referring to CHARACTER.. the character of men in this country is, by all definitions in the world, has been very acceptable to be feminine and corrupt - maybe not in the same person mind you <img src="style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="wink.gif" /> . They are two extremes, the katoy character is denying the responsibility of being a supporter and leader by being feminine and 'soft', the corrupt character is excercising a power and control kick to take advantage of people to their own benefit.. both are equally damaging.<br /><br />@ JR Texas - couldn't have said it better myself.. parents need to take responsiblity for educating their children about morals, ethics, etc.. Gotta start somewhere..<br /><br />The truth of the matter is Thais could care less if the government is corrupt as long as it improves their way of life... this shows a MAJOR opportunity for improvement in the thought processes of these people. Thailand is a beautiful country, with a wonder culture and great people.. they deserver to live a better life - even if they don't know what that means, what it 'looks like' or how to get there. Take, for example, the concept of accepting a corrupt government as long as it improves your personal way of life.. sounds great.. EXCEPT, when YOU end up on the other end of that corruption.. not so fun. Not working out as you had planned. Hence, a little education on the effects of some of their actions and choices, especially when intended to help improve that same way of life, should be offered when possible. Couple this with the widely acceptable femininity of males.. and you have a social development problem.. which you can see effects of almost anywhere in Thailand. If the men here were more honorable, respectable and 'took care of business',.. the women wouldn't be flogging themselves at every foreigner that walks by. It's not like this in other coutries, EVEN WHERE PROSTIUTION IS LEGAL! So, you can't put it off on, 'They just do it to make money, etc.'. No, they do it for lack of a decent selection in the local 'dating pool' ! <br /><br />I would apologize for the rant, or if this offends someone, but to be blunt... I don't mind if it offends you, as long as you can see that there is truly a problem here,.. that maybe you, I or someone we know will have the opportunity to help these wonderful people truly improve their lives and relationships. All in all... I think the intention of everyone on this board, aside from those less endowed with mental ability, is to HELP Thailand.. not hurt it.<br /><br />Cheers

<br /><br /><br />I wonder what Devine Power gave you the right to "HELP" Thailand. I smell imperialism.<br />

<br /><br /><br />You should have your nose checked.. this ISN'T about me, or you.. it's about helping others.. Heck, even if you want to be totally self seeking here do it for that fact that what goes around comes around.. either way,.. you got to look at the intention here.. the orig poster and second poster have valid points.. whether you choose to see that or not, is your decision. And for what it's worth, half of my family is Thai..so, yes, I am familiar with the Thai and the Farang side of these issues.. and it does effect everyone..<br />

<br /><br /><br />5555! Quiet an achievement I dare say. Many people's families on this forum are half Thai <img src="style_emoticons/default/smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> I am married to a Thai, for years already I live a Thai life amidst my Thai family of 12, in a totally Thai extremely modest fishermans' family accommodation far south, where I am happy to see no more than one farang every week.<br /> <br />Its' a chosen life : I still own 2 businesses, a house and an appartment in Europe, and a villa in Phuket, but I sleep on the floor with 16 others in a small one room house with no glass in the windows. All because I love my Thai family and friends more than anything else.<br /> <br />By the way, you don't live in Thailand, you live on Phuket that is referred to by Thai as "farang country". I have many Thai friends on Phuket, but I am sad to have to admit they all have become all half farang. It was such an alien place to my inlaws when i first showed them around. They see it as our(farang) province, and after the first days of excitement they didn't really like what they saw after all. They wanted to go home early.<br /><br />For the record : At home there are many katoey too, they have been a part of Thai society for a thousand years. The Phuket katoey were not the reason the inlaws didnt like the island. But the -in their Thai eyes -loud, impolite, arrogant, bad mannered, bad mouthed, disrespectful and agressive farang were. It was all I heard during the ride home, and i was ashamed to be farang too. The inlaws were curious, have seen Phuket now, and will probably not return.<br /> <br />You and the likes, who try to influence the Thai ways, are the reason why farang are becoming increasingly impopular in Thailand, why we will never have the right to own land here, and why farang never will be granted the same rights as Thai. Thais do not like the fact that we are here if we do not embrace the Thai culture full heartedly, they merely only tolerate you because they can make money out of you. No wonder you dont like their ways.<br /> <br />If you want to turn this place into "little America", why did you come here in the first place? Why did you not retire to Texas? You are farang, and have no right to judge or interfere. That would be imperialism.<br />

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I like your defense of this great nation. However nice it is , it is flawed in so many ways.

Who would want the same "rights" when it would mean throwing many rights away?

Would you feel like you had rights when you were not allowed to ask certain questions about certain things?

Is that something to be proud of? Not in my book it is not.

Did you know that farnags have far more rights.

Please forget this nonsense about not be able to own land here. That old chestnut should be put to bed at long last.

Any farang can own anything here and anyone who really thinks otherwise, buying into this nice little notion of " one has to be thai to own anything" is, like so many living in total denial.

Farang are becoming unpopular( according to you and some others, many would not agree with this) here because they make people ask questions about the state of things.

[RKASA]

Well 're' you seemed to have picked up a pretty discouraging outlook toward your fellow expat/tourists. I guess you have none of the character traits you so apply described. I noticed you left out profane so I guess this is a desirable trait in your thinking?

You are correct. I'm under 40 - not obese and my gf is not 30 years my junior.

Can people try and disagree with the points I have made rather than impersonate Mary Whitehouse or anyone that reads the Daily Mail.

You live in the wrong part of Thailand.  Stay away from the tour traps.  I was working and married here 40 years ago when I still had hair and was a sexy stud.  We're still married because I don't have tatoos or beer farts, I don't even drink.  In fact where I live I never meet the people your discribing.   Ever.  But then I don't put my butt on a bar stool everynite ether.   Try hanging out someplace else for awhile and recall its all their problem not yours anyway.   You can find trash everytime you look in a dump, stop looking.  Their are lots of Thais that are just like them they just hang at cheaper bars.  People are people everywhere you go, and as far as the west is all bad crap.  get a life.  nothing that much wrong with ether of them.   IMHO you sound like a real A   hole.

[reenatinnakor]

Well 're' you seemed to have picked up a pretty discouraging outlook toward your fellow expat/tourists. I guess you have none of the character traits you so apply described. I noticed you left out profane so I guess this is a desirable trait in your thinking?

You are correct. I'm under 40 - not obese and my gf is not 30 years my junior.

Can people try and disagree with the points I have made rather than impersonate Mary Whitehouse or anyone that reads the Daily Mail.

You live in the wrong part of Thailand. Stay away from the tour traps. I was working and married here 40 years ago when I still had hair and was a sexy stud. We're still married because I don't have tatoos or beer farts, I don't even drink. In fact where I live I never meet the people your discribing. Ever. But then I don't put my butt on a bar stool everynite ether. Try hanging out someplace else for awhile and recall its all their problem not yours anyway. You can find trash everytime you look in a dump, stop looking. Their are lots of Thais that are just like them they just hang at cheaper bars. People are people everywhere you go, and as far as the west is all bad crap. get a life. nothing that much wrong with ether of them. IMHO you sound like a real A hole.

A sensible reply at last. I dont live in those areas you described, I live in the Thai countryside. I think generally you will not find old men with girls 30 years younger than they are walking the streets hand in hand pretending to be in love (one of them anyway) in london, paris, berlin, new york, chicago - as hard as i looked i wouldnt find them. I didnt say the west was all bad, but some of the posts here slagging thailand of for being too gay - the western democracies have their own nuances that could be perceived as bad. I love my country but i will not tell another country to be more like the one where i'm from. Yeah I'm an A hole.....because I dont have to go to another country to get laid with a girl half my age and pretend to be in love with me.

[grandpops]

The OP is about Thai accepting corruption. It's true. Ask the average Thai what harm comes from corruption, and they probably won't be able to come up with an answer, other than: "sometimes bad people get rich." They need to understand that corruption is like tooth decay, it weakens society on many levels.

It makes things cost more. (rigged bids, etc).

It enables poorly qualified people to rise in the ranks, while better qualified people are left behind

It contributes to poorly built infrastructure

It contributes to dangerous products

It enables corrupt people to get rich (poster boy: Thaksin)

It encourages lying and cheating

It exacerbates depression - in the people who are unfairly penalized or impoverished.

....the list could go on much longer.

Schools need to show kids that getting more money by corrupt means is wrong and those who use devious means for self-enrichment will get caught and punished severely. Unfortunately, the messages being shown today (in Thailand) are the opposite. Cheats and liars like Thaksin become fabulously rich, and therefore are honored and emulated by those who worship wealth.

And here is where it begins.

Flunk that first pre-school test and theres teacher offering an upgrade for a few hundred baht or a kiss from mum!

Should teacher decide to uphold failure to meet grade, school upgrade so as school does not appear to be failing.

Kids have now learned that they do not need to try, attend classes, be puctual, do homework etc. as their final grades are already in the bag.... its just the price that needs finalising! In later school and Uni, a quick flash of flesh can assure grades! And now what have you taught them?

BUT at the end of the day, it's their mess and they seem as happy living in it as we do to live here in it with them. Strange world, but its only us expats who lose sleep worrying about it.

[ivowatson]

I live a Thai life amidst my Thai family of 12

I sleep on the floor with 16 others in a small one room house with no glass in the windows. All because I love my Thai family and friends more than anything else.

You and the likes, who try to influence the Thai ways, are the reason why farang are becoming increasingly impopular in Thailand, why we will never have the right to own land here, and why farang never will be granted the same rights as Thai. Thais do not like the fact that we are here if we do not embrace the Thai culture full heartedly, they merely only tolerate you because they can make money out of you. No wonder you dont like their ways.

Yes, love hurts but why do the neighbors come over to sleep in your room? Or are those the katoeys who you see everywhere?

Okay, Revive, don't do it again. I'd like to buy some land and if I dare say I'd like to vote too. I swear I fullheartedly embraced the culture. I have a mia noi, I beat up my wife (not the mia noi though), I spit around everywhere, I drive like a maniac with my gun under the seat, I lie and cheat all the time , I'm probably the worst hypocrite in town. I'm just trying my best.

[glegolo]

Hey everybody!!!

Your only concern is that the first guy wrote about geetoys and homosexuals....

dont you get it at all??? This is big for heavens sake, wake up.....

THIS ARTICLE IS WRITTEN;

BY A THAI ABOUT THE THAI

This can be a start of something good.

Come on...

Glegolo

[mauGR1]

Glegolo,take a deep breath and relax,there are 6 billion people and 6 billion of different opinions in this world.In my humble opinion Thailand is not a "Nation of thieves"

[doggie888888]

Thailand is no more a nation of thieves than England is a nation of lager louts, Australia is a nation of culture-less descendants of society's rejects, USA is a nation of dumb and fat citizens, NZ is a nation of sheep tinkerers, Germany is a nation of ex Nazis, Austria is a nation of pedophiles who imprison and impregnate their own daughters etc etc. It's so easy to generalise. Name any nation, there is bound to be a stereotypical caricature of its citizens.

Do I think there is widespread and systemic corruption inThailand? Yes I do and so do the Thais - let them sort it out (or not). Whatever the outcome, I certainly do not think Thailand is a nation of thieves.

[Jingthing]

Do I think there is widespread and systemic corruption inThailand? Yes I do and so do the Thais - let them sort it out (or not). Whatever the outcome, I certainly do not think Thailand is a nation of thieves.

Speaking of Thailand, the trouble is that there is no evidence that Thailand is even a tiny bit serious about sorting it out. I welcome that editorial, was it published in a major Thai language media as well?

Edited July 21, 2009 by Jingthing

[animatic]

@ robblok, christcourt, norwayeagle - if you don't see a problem with the Katoys,.. you need to open your eyes. Being something you're not, whether it's a masculan-wanna-be-male lesbian or a danty-feminine-lady-boy is damaging to any countries social standards. (norwayeagle - you especially need to seek some help my friend)

You are really narrow minded, i like the way Thailand is katoi, gays and all. I hate it when people tell others how to behave especially if they are narrow minded.

Personally i could never be attracted to either a gay or katoi but that doesnt mean they dont have a right to be what they want to be. They dont bother anyone. Sure there are some anoying ones around but there are a lot more idiot farangs around.

Well said Robblok

Having studied a bit of brain science over the last 35 years, it is generally held that:

Some are wired missing that moral compas, amorality being less a decision,

than the individuals decisions being UN-controlled by that lack of a moral compass.

All brains are not wired the same.

Sometimes at a crucial juncture more manganese or zinc etc etc. was needed, or over loaded etc.

Some people are just wired to be annoying, I have known a few, they can't help it...

ALL in-utero gender encoding is NOT going to make an either/or individual 100% of the time.

5% of the WORLD is not as strongly and precisely gender determined as the other 95%,

and that 5% can't do anything about that.

A specific set of external genitalia is not an indicator of exactly WHO is in side that body.

One gene early on gave a penis, another later failed to fire properly

and left a feminine mind attached to it. And the inverse also. How strongly that individual feels

about their internal vs external identity is a very personal thing, not a societal thing.

Just because a society doesn't marginalize it's sexual minorities doesn't mean it has no moral compass.

Just because a society DOES marginalize or suppress it's sexual minorities doesn't make it moral either.

Some societies lump WOMEN into this category too... See honor killings and labial circumcision.

There are plenty of 'gender different' people in business worlds, particularly media and entertainment.

But not exclusively those sectors. Please don't try and tell me David Geffin is a bad businessman.

Or that Steve Spielberg is bad for doing a partnership deal with Geffin.

Most business people are being something they are not.

The basic human functions are not business functions, that is a overlay for profit.

The guy in the 3 piece suit is a learned response to external stimuli, not an natural affectation.

They do it because, by custom, it removes everything but the 'business deal' from negotiations,

by homogenizing the sartorial affectations. Only the relative COST of the suits sets the players apart.

Power to negotiate raised through value added plumage.

Nature vs nurture: BOTH play a part in who we become and how we act.

There are plenty of "straights" who can't run a business over a food stall level,

and katoeys who run huge entertainment complexes and support hundreds of people in the process.

High end business people come to Thai resorts and are greeted by well dressed, well spoken katoeys

who treat them as valued customers, and after the initial realization, they are then appreciated for

their services in the roll of concierge or desk clerk etc. There is little reason to assume that this segment

of society is incapable of doing business, or an indication of societal collapse or moral disintegration.

One can not look at this culture from the parochial Judeo-Christian tradition and see it clearly.

One must lift the gauze of preconceived expectations, and see what's there, and why it's there.

Now accepting 'corruption from cradle to birth', IS an indication of societal problems.

Being something you are not, technically, externally, but always felt you WERE, is not the same thing.

Edited July 21, 2009 by animatic

[spidermike007]

That is a great point. It is not a matter of how much corruption exists. This goes on in all third world countries. The real question is how much will is there to tackle the problem. That, I believe

is where Thailand is missing the mark.

The aspect that is not getting mentioned much, is why Thailand has so little interest in addressing it's staggering level of corruption. Malaysia has set up a corruption commission, and is making DAILY arrests of top officials, ministers, local politicians, and businessmen. Indonesia has set up a corruption commission, and so far their antigraft commission has achieved a 100-percent conviction rate in 86 cases of bribery and graft related to government procurements and budgets. And where is Thailand in all of this. Why aren't men like Newin, and others, who are coming up with expensive schemes to line their pockets being arrested, and tried? Why is the CEO of King Power still employed? Why is the Police Captain in charge of the airport security, who appears to be involved in the King Power scam, still in his position? Does anyone really think there is even a chance that the King Power scheme is not real? That they are arresting only guilty shoplifters? Does all King Power have to do is post one video on the internet, of a guilty party, for all of us to let them off the hook? Is that all it takes? Even India is getting actively involved in tackling corruption, as this article indicates. When was the last time he heard of a government minister, or top official, or corporate CEO being arrested on corruption charges?

In India, New Crusade on Corruption

By HEATHER TIMMONS

Published: July 30, 2009

NEW DELHI —When Ashwani Kumar took over as India’s top anticorruption official last year, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, his new boss, advised him, “Follow the righteous path.”

Sanjit Das for The New York Times

Under Ashwani Kumar, the Central Bureau of Investigation has arrested dozens of bank officials, engineers and contractors suspected of crimes. Yet the job before him had frustrated many others. India ranks 85th in a corruption perception index created by the nonprofit antigraft group Transparency International, worse than China, Mexico or Brazil. Mr. Kumar, 58, a career policeman and director of the Central Bureau of Investigation, has taken his Sisyphean task head on. In just a few months, he has heightened the visibility of India’s fight against complex corporate crimes and enlisted public support for his programs to battle corruption in the government.

Most notably, his agency’s business investigative skills gained acclaim internationally, after the founder and chairman of one of India’s largest information technology companies, Satyam Computer Systems, confessed to falsifying $1 billion in cash on its balance sheet in January, India’s largest and broadest modern fraud. Just 45 days after taking the case, the Central Bureau of Investigation had charged six people and produced a thorough account of how investigators suspected the fraud had occurred, based on hundreds of interviews and backed by thousands of pages of documents. The bureau even described the minutiae of the accounting tricks and dual-invoicing tactics used to commit the fraud.

In contrast, the United States Department of Justice took years to put together a compelling case against top executives of Enron, the now-bankrupt energy company. The comparison may not be completely parallel, because a confession revealed the fraud at Satyam. But the scale of the accounting scheme has led analysts and academics to label Satyam “India’s Enron.” Sudhakar V. Balachandran, an assistant professor of accounting at Columbia Business School, said the United States could learn a lot from India’s rapid response to Satyam. Foreign investors “know that swift decisive actions were taken,” Mr. Balachandran said. “If I’m an investor looking at an emerging market, I’m going to look for signs that it functions well.” That includes undertaking a swift criminal investigation at the first sign of corruption or fraud, he said.

Some rights advocates say that the bureau has been overzealous and has ignored due process. Under the bureau’s guidance, two of Satyam’s outside auditors have been in jail for seven months without trial, held on charges of criminal conspiracy. They have been denied bail, even though they maintain their innocence and have yet to be convicted of any crime. Mr. Kumar’s office, however, contends that their incarceration is justified.

Beyond Satyam, Mr. Kumar has big ambitions for the bureau. With just 5,000 agents, it is less than half the size of its closest American equivalent, the F.B.I., although India’s population is more than four times that of the United States. But India’s bureau is trying new ways to fight graft and bribery that may help make up for what it lacks in numbers. For example, the bureau is embarking on a countrywide campaign to curb corruption that enlists support from the public by asking for people to use their cellphones to text in details of corruption. Economic growth, increasing industrialization and globalization mean that economic crime is rising, Mr. Kumar said. “Traditional crimes are fading into the background” in favor of digital crimes and credit card fraud, he said. Since Mr. Kumar took office, the bureau has arrested dozens of bank managers, bureaucrats, engineers and contractors on suspicion of crimes including accepting bribes, forging documents and stealing petroleum. A recent investigation into top officials at the All India Council for Technical Education, a group created by the government to improve the vocational skills of India’s youth, uncovered 36 bank accounts that were used to hide illicit cash. At a meeting this year with private sector bankers, Mr. Kumar pledged that the bureau would act as a “facilitator in the growth of the financial sector,” by curbing something that United States regulators had failed to stop — mortgage fraud and risky lending.

Mr. Kumar seems at first like an unlikely crusader against complex financial fraud. He spent much of his 35-year career in the forests of the mountainous state of Himachal Pradesh, fighting illegal logging and poaching. But he quickly rose through the ranks of India’s civil service, becoming director general of police in the state. His success there caught the eye of the Singh administration.

The law has played a big role in the Kumar family. His father was a policeman, and he is married to the daughter of a policeman. Discussing respect for the environment gets him fired up, and he is thrilled to point out that the bureau’s new headquarters will be a “green” building. His office is spotless, he is scrupulously polite and he sticks to a rigorous schedule that involves waking at 4 a.m. for two hours of work, then an hour of exercise. Mr. Kumar says his prominent cases have earned him enemies. And he cautions that the bureau cannot halt corruption on its own. The bureau deals with the investigation, “but the punishment is given by the courts,” he said. And he willingly acknowledges that corruption sometimes occurs within the bureau.

“Human beings are always frail, and such incidents do happen,” he said. “The question is, ‘Do we tolerate this kind of behavior?’ The answer is, ‘Absolutely no.’ ” Corruption specialists say that his fight can be effective, even if he is surrounded by a corrupt system. “One person can make a difference, just as all leaders can make a difference,” said Christiaan Poortman, global programs director for Transparency International. In Mr. Kumar’s case, his anticorruption efforts may bear fruit, Mr. Poortman said. “If he has the ear of the prime minister, who knows? It might work,” Mr. Poortman added.