Discussion For Fun

tgeezer · July 12, 2009

"Whom do you wish to speak to". I was taught that you could not end a sentence with a preposition. What do grammarians call 'to' nowadays?

ใครคุณอยากพูดกับ How about that? the more you say it, the more normal it sounds, and for all we know may be in use by now. Do we still call กับ a คำบพบท ?

The title should read: กับใคร หรือ ใคร....กับ

Edited July 12, 2009 by tgeezer

aanon · July 12, 2009

"Whom do you wish to speak to". I was taught that you could not end a sentence with a preposition. What do grammarians call 'to' nowadays?
ใครคุณอยากพูดกับ How about that? the more you say it, the more normal it sounds, and for all we know may be in use by now. Do we still call กับ a คำบพบท ?

The title should read: กับใคร หรือ ใคร....กับ

I'm not sure about your question but, as an interesting aside, try expressing this small child's bedtime question without breaking the old 'no final propositions' rule:

"Daddy, why did you bring that book I don't like to be read to out of up for?"

aanon

ps. Example is taken from book 'The Language Instinct', Pinker.

tgeezer · July 12, 2009

"Whom do you wish to speak to". I was taught that you could not end a sentence with a preposition. What do grammarians call 'to' nowadays?
ใครคุณอยากพูดกับ How about that? the more you say it, the more normal it sounds, and for all we know may be in use by now. Do we still call กับ a คำบุพบท ?

The title should read: กับใคร หรือ ใคร....กับ

I'm not sure about your question but, as an interesting aside, try expressing this small child's bedtime question without breaking the old 'no final propositions' rule:

"Daddy, why did you bring that book I don't like to be read to out of up for?"

aanon

ps. Example is taken from book 'The Language Instinct', Pinker.

That is a good one, which shows how understanding is not much impeded provided all the words are there, instict is a good word.

Daddy why did you bring up that book which I don't like you to read to me?

This says so much doesn't it? but I am not sure it would be understood without knowing the culture;

1.Children have books read to them in bed before sleeping.

2.In a normal house the bedroom is upstairs.

3.Daddies are involved in child rearing,

4.Most likely the child is female. (just my feeling)

4.Kids are usually indulged.

It is the reason I wondered if there was some culteral thing I needed in my question about trust and the loving wife.

Edited July 12, 2009 by tgeezer

Johpa · July 12, 2009

"Whom do you wish to speak to". I was taught that you could not end a sentence with a preposition. What do grammarians call 'to' nowadays?

Fortunately, modern linguistics has tossed out the old school 19th century grammarians who prescribe grammatical rules rather than describe and explain the grammar of any given language. People frequently use prepositions at the end of a sentence in English. A number of people have come up with syntactical rules that explain this, but the details are not important here. In this case 'to' is used as an preposition as it modifies the noun "who" which in this instance uses the slightly archaic case ending of 'whom'.

DavidHouston · July 12, 2009

When Winston Churchill was berated by an opposition member of parliament for ending a sentence with a proposition, he responded:

"This is an outrage up with which I will not put!"

yoot · July 13, 2009

"Whom do you wish to speak to". I was taught that you could not end a sentence with a preposition. What do grammarians call 'to' nowadays?
ใครคุณอยากพูดกับ How about that? the more you say it, the more normal it sounds, and for all we know may be in use by now. Do we still call กับ a คำบพบท ?

The title should read: กับใคร หรือ ใคร....กับ

I don't know for English, but for Thai language it's possible.

"Whom do you wish to speak to" - ใครคือคนที่อยากจะคุยด้วย

Or, on the phone, someone want to talk to you and you want to ask that one's name, you can say "ไม่ทราบว่าใครต้องการจะเรียนสายด้วยครับ"

SoftWater · July 13, 2009

I think it's always possible to avoid ending with a preposition -

To Whom do you wish to speak?

I shall not put up with this outrage!

- simply because English is so versatile at expressing the same meanings in multiple ways ('less you don't believe in 'meanings' like Quine...but that's another story!).

Groongthep · July 13, 2009

This subject reminds me of an old anecdote. A new student from a small rural town is admitted to Harvard and is having difficulty finding the library on his first day. He stops another more senior student and asks, "Could you please tell me where the library is at? "Rather indignantly the older student replies " My good sir, at Harvard we don't end our sentences with prepositions." to which the new student answered "Oh! Excuse me, could you tell me where the library is at, asshol_e!"

tgeezer · July 13, 2009

"Whom do you wish to speak to". I was taught that you could not end a sentence with a preposition. What do grammarians call 'to' nowadays?

Fortunately, modern linguistics has tossed out the old school 19th century grammarians who prescribe grammatical rules rather than describe and explain the grammar of any given language. People frequently use prepositions at the end of a sentence in English. A number of people have come up with syntactical rules that explain this, but the details are not important here. In this case 'to' is used as an preposition as it modifies the noun "who" which in this instance uses the slightly archaic case ending of 'whom'.

My original did have the rider that we shouldn't get side-tracked by who and whom but on reflection left it out, because of my lack of grammar. However to me it sounds like "who do you want to say the word 'to'", which complicates the whole thing beyond sensible discussion whereas 'To whom do you wish to speak' is unambiguous. 'You' is the subject and 'Whom' the object. I don't know whether this distinction is important because I am not a wordsmith but I suspect that more complicated sentences could possibly be rendered nonsense by abandoning the simple rules.

tgeezer · July 13, 2009

"Whom do you wish to speak to". I was taught that you could not end a sentence with a preposition. What do grammarians call 'to' nowadays?
ใครคุณอยากพูดกับ How about that? the more you say it, the more normal it sounds, and for all we know may be in use by now. Do we still call กับ a คำบพบท ?

The title should read: กับใคร หรือ ใคร....กับ

I don't know for English, but for Thai language it's possible.

"Whom do you wish to speak to" - ใครคือคนที่อยากจะคุยด้วย

Or, on the phone, someone want to talk to you and you want to ask that one's name, you can say "ไม่ทราบว่าใครต้องการจะเรียนสายด้วยครับ"

Thanks Yoot, this is refreshing; As is often the case, when read, it is quite unambiguous but I don't think that I could compose it yet. My simple example was a direct translation of a grammatically impossible sentence in English and I was hoping that you would say it is not possible in Thai. Your example reads 'Who, by name, is the person, whom, (you)like to chat (together)'. Whereas my example is ใครคุณอยากพูดกับ is difficult for me to write now that I have read your contributions So two questions:

1. Is คุณอยากจะพูดกับใคร ok? and if so,

2. Could you ever see a day when it might be modified to; ใครคิอคนที่อยากพูด(คุย)กับ ?

I suppose I have answered my own question, English speakers can't agree on Their own language, anything is possible as language developes. I will still post it, even if I sound daft.

yoot · July 13, 2009

1. Is คุณอยากจะพูดกับใคร ok?

Yes, it is.

Both "คุณอยากจะพูดกับใคร" and "ใครที่คุณอยากจะพูดด้วย" are correct for "With whom do you wish to speak?", but the first one is more preferable if it's on the phone.

I have an example when the second sentence is used;

If you can choose to talk to someone, with whom do you wish to speak? - ถ้าคุณสามารถเลือกที่จะพูดกับใครได้สักคน ใครคือคนที่คุณอยากจะพูดด้วย (Ex. President of the United State, Thai PM., etc.)