Thais Are Divided Over Royal Pardon For Thaksin

[webfact]

Thais are divided over royal pardon for Thaksin : Abac poll

By The Nation

Published on July 13, 2009

The debate on the signature campaign to seek a royal pardon has raged on about the appropriateness of involving the Royal Palace in order to help ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra elude his graft conviction and two-year jail term.

In a latest twist to the debate, Abac Poll said yesterday 6 in ten people in the Northeast, seen as Thaksin's political stronghold, and about half of

Bangkok's residents, were inclined to agree to the idea of granting amnesty for politicians convicted of corruption.

The survey was conducted in a sample of 4,102 respondents from 17 provinces nationwide, including Bangkok.

Although the average of one in two people nationwide opposed the idea of a royal pardon, the intensity of the opposition varied from region to region.

The opposition was strongest in the South where four in five people ruled out a royal pardon for Thaksin.

Individual backgrounds influenced the outlook on whether a graft offender should be granted a royal pardon.

About 48 per cent of non-university graduates found a graft pardon acceptable while 35 per cent of those with a Bachelor's degree agreed with the idea. The percentage plunged to 22 per cent for those with graduate studies.

Roughly half the unemployed and retirees were in favour of a royal pardon.

Democrat Party MP Thepthai Senpong said his main coalition party wanted to remind the red shirts to heed criticism about the appropriateness of the signature campaign.

"Righteousness and appropriateness are two key issues that the red shirts should carefully consider before proceeding any further to submit the petition seeking a royal pardon on Thaksin's behalf," Thepthai said.

He was reacting to speculation that the red shirts might have completed soliciting one million signatures to endorse the petition.

He said the content of the draft petition contained statements deemed an insult the judicial review done under the name of His Majesty.

Senator Prasarn Maruekhapitak said it was erroneous to make a comparison between the signature campaign carried out on Thaksin's behalf and the tradition of sounding a bell to petition the King in the Sukhothai era.

"In the past like the Sukhothai era, the petition would not have happened because a convict who showed no remorse and was involved in the Songkran

mayhem, would have been beheaded along with family members up to seven generations," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/07/13

[MHM]

If they behead to 7 generations, I'd have thought the generations would fizzle out after generations 3-4

[slapout]

The last paragraph caught my attention, not for the beheading part but the "up to 7 generations". I do not know whether the term overkill or impossible dream should apply.

[Sandstone Art]

If they behead to 7 generations, I'd have thought the generations would fizzle out after generations 3-4

It means present 3 generations above the convicted criminal and 3 generations below him thus making 7 generations.

So, that convicted criminal will cause his parents and grand-parents & great-grand-parents to be beheaded and his children and grandchildren and great-grand-children to be send to the slaughter house too!

The ancient time law is basing on such because their generations starts to pro-create in a rather young age. As young as 16 yrs old and they become fathers.

It's not 7 generations that follows because there will be no more off springs!

[Ferwert]

Thais are divided over royal pardon for Thaksin : Abac poll

By The Nation

Published on July 13, 2009

The debate on the signature campaign to seek a royal pardon has raged on about the appropriateness of involving the Royal Palace in order to help ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra elude his graft conviction and two-year jail term.

In a latest twist to the debate, Abac Poll said yesterday 6 in ten people in the Northeast, seen as Thaksin's political stronghold, and about half of

Bangkok's residents, were inclined to agree to the idea of granting amnesty for politicians convicted of corruption.

The survey was conducted in a sample of 4,102 respondents from 17 provinces nationwide, including Bangkok.

Although the average of one in two people nationwide opposed the idea of a royal pardon, the intensity of the opposition varied from region to region.

The opposition was strongest in the South where four in five people ruled out a royal pardon for Thaksin.

Individual backgrounds influenced the outlook on whether a graft offender should be granted a royal pardon.

About 48 per cent of non-university graduates found a graft pardon acceptable while 35 per cent of those with a Bachelor's degree agreed with the idea. The percentage plunged to 22 per cent for those with graduate studies.

Roughly half the unemployed and retirees were in favour of a royal pardon.

Democrat Party MP Thepthai Senpong said his main coalition party wanted to remind the red shirts to heed criticism about the appropriateness of the signature campaign.

"Righteousness and appropriateness are two key issues that the red shirts should carefully consider before proceeding any further to submit the petition seeking a royal pardon on Thaksin's behalf," Thepthai said.

He was reacting to speculation that the red shirts might have completed soliciting one million signatures to endorse the petition.

He said the content of the draft petition contained statements deemed an insult the judicial review done under the name of His Majesty.

Senator Prasarn Maruekhapitak said it was erroneous to make a comparison between the signature campaign carried out on Thaksin's behalf and the tradition of sounding a bell to petition the King in the Sukhothai era.

"In the past like the Sukhothai era, the petition would not have happened because a convict who showed no remorse and was involved in the Songkran

mayhem, would have been beheaded along with family members up to seven generations," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/07/13

Several issues evident here. #1 - the agenda of the English media (Bkk Post/Nation) on clear display in this article.Quoting extensively Democrat Party apologists and avoiding the pro-democracy Red Shirt perspective. One-sided as always, but effective within the Farang community. Farang's have no other source of information other than what these two agenized publications feed them. It is no wonder many politically inclined Farangs look foolish vociforously espousing this agenda under the mistaken notion they understand Thai politics. To be seen extensively parrotting this agenized media is not praiseworthy.To be so susceptible to propaganda is troubling when many farangs hail from countries with strong Democratic traditions. #2 - this business of Sukhothai era stuff is nonsense designed to muddy the waters of 2009 realities.#3- This article continues the agenda of legitimizing Thaksins judicial decisions. avoiding the obvious Political basis for these decisions #4 - One thing surprises me however, is that 1/2 of BKK residents supporting this petition. The surprise is not this resulr, but them admitting it. This certainly exposes the media agenda implying that only intellectually challenged dolts from the NE support Mr. Thaksin.#5 - pointedly referencing the Songkran protest conveniently leaving out the Airport thing and multi-cost Government house sacking and thefts. Just more of the one-sided, agenized reporting that I hope to bring to the attention of Farangs. #6 - With respect to the Democrat Party quotes, "me thinks they object too much". As the unelected minority party hoisted into place by their friends, any thought of a Thaksin return so threatens their electoral chances that they are paranoid. Their Thaksin demonization campaign continues unabated.

[sunholidaysun1]

Thai's are devided about a Royal Pardon , I expect because only half of them are being paid to support him, the other half want some dosh ass well .

As for a Royal Pardon , For What ?? Breaking the law , swindling money from the government , dodgy deals, drug death squads ,evaiding cature, running from the law etc he needs more than one pardon .

[Ferwert]

Thais are divided over royal pardon for Thaksin : Abac poll

By The Nation

Published on July 13, 2009

The debate on the signature campaign to seek a royal pardon has raged on about the appropriateness of involving the Royal Palace in order to help ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra elude his graft conviction and two-year jail term.

In a latest twist to the debate, Abac Poll said yesterday 6 in ten people in the Northeast, seen as Thaksin's political stronghold, and about half of

Bangkok's residents, were inclined to agree to the idea of granting amnesty for politicians convicted of corruption.

The survey was conducted in a sample of 4,102 respondents from 17 provinces nationwide, including Bangkok.

Although the average of one in two people nationwide opposed the idea of a royal pardon, the intensity of the opposition varied from region to region.

The opposition was strongest in the South where four in five people ruled out a royal pardon for Thaksin.

Individual backgrounds influenced the outlook on whether a graft offender should be granted a royal pardon.

About 48 per cent of non-university graduates found a graft pardon acceptable while 35 per cent of those with a Bachelor's degree agreed with the idea. The percentage plunged to 22 per cent for those with graduate studies.

Roughly half the unemployed and retirees were in favour of a royal pardon.

Democrat Party MP Thepthai Senpong said his main coalition party wanted to remind the red shirts to heed criticism about the appropriateness of the signature campaign.

"Righteousness and appropriateness are two key issues that the red shirts should carefully consider before proceeding any further to submit the petition seeking a royal pardon on Thaksin's behalf," Thepthai said.

He was reacting to speculation that the red shirts might have completed soliciting one million signatures to endorse the petition.

He said the content of the draft petition contained statements deemed an insult the judicial review done under the name of His Majesty.

Senator Prasarn Maruekhapitak said it was erroneous to make a comparison between the signature campaign carried out on Thaksin's behalf and the tradition of sounding a bell to petition the King in the Sukhothai era.

"In the past like the Sukhothai era, the petition would not have happened because a convict who showed no remorse and was involved in the Songkran

mayhem, would have been beheaded along with family members up to seven generations," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/07/13

Take note of the dissemination of this poll into carefully crafted educational sectors. Do you realize that the agenda here is trying to lay the groundwork for eliminating one-person-one-vote electoral democracy. Combining this with the holier-than-thou campaign to highlight vote-buying, which has been a part of Thai politics forever, by all sides, are all attempts at undermining electoral Democracy. However, they would really like to perpetuate the myth that Mr. Thaksin was the primary perpetrator and that all Politicians previously were "white as the driven snow". A pro-Democracy approach would be to make one-person-one-vote an inalienable right of all citizens, and to criminalize vote buying - making both the buyer and seller equally criminally responsible. The anti-democratic approach is to segment society into educational sectors, disenfranchsing large portions of the population. This arrogant assault on electoral democracy suggests that some sectors of society are more aware of their political interests than others.

[Ferwert]

Thai's are devided about a Royal Pardon , I expect because only half of them are being paid to support him, the other half want some dosh ass well .

As for a Royal Pardon , For What ?? Breaking the law , swindling money from the government , dodgy deals, drug death squads ,evaiding cature, running from the law etc he needs more than one pardon .

You have bought into the Thaksin demonization campaign hook-line-and-sinker. I have a piece of property for sale at the North Pole....Interested?

[webfact]

You reds wont succeed with a pardon. Period

[hammered]

Its 54% against and 46% for iirc. However, it is irrelevent. Legal cases and legal procedure depends on law and not popularity. If parliament want to change the procedure or law then they can, but those who interpret and apply it must stick to what it is.

This case though is about politcal pressure and building as much division and hatred as possible in the country so one group of elite or the other can come out on top and run Thailand

[Samuian]

It's to divide the country even further - pardon for what?

Does this man show any remorse at all?

What is even more important that a royal pardon would

be a giant kick in the butt of the judiciary who has

been reminded by the king himself to do the job properly!

It would make a farce out of any legal proceedings -

how about "cookie-box-gate"?

No way, the judiciary should proceed with all the other cases still pending!

On the contrary the red punks want Kasit to resign - for an minor "offense"

he hasn't been found guilty of!

Edited July 13, 2009 by Samuian

[Ferwert]

You reds wont succeed with a pardon. Period

They will succeed with free and fair elections, if one-person-one-vote Democracy is not eliminated first.

[Ferwert]

It's to divide the country even further - pardon for what?

Does this man show any remorse at all?

What is even more important that a royal pardon would

be a giant kick in the butt of the judiciary who has

been reminded by the king himself to do the job properly!

It would make a farce out of any legal proceedings -

how about "cookie-box-gate"?

No way, the judiciary should proceed with all the other cases still pending!

On the contrary the red punks want Kasit to resign - for an minor "offense"

he hasn't been found guilty of!

Anyone including a reference to the King in their comments make political discussions very difficult. Please avoid that.

[webfact]

They will succeed with free and fair elections, if one-person-one-vote Democracy is not eliminated first.

Reading through all your postings I got the impression you might be the incarnation of someone who was recently banned from this forum...

[Samuian]

........ to the King in their comments make political discussions very difficult. Please avoid that.[/i]

I am deeply sorry it's a fact!

And on THIS FACT the motion for a pardon is build upon, this is the "trap" build in there...

that is what is all about as "hammer" wrote: "It the wrestling about who comes out on top!"

All powered by the megalomaniac ego of one giant Narcissus, who just can't give up!

I can tell who that will be for the next two, three decades....

Edited July 13, 2009 by Samuian

[caf]

They will succeed with free and fair elections, if one-person-one-vote Democracy is not eliminated first.

Reading through all your postings I got the impression you might be the incarnation of someone who was recently banned from this forum...

I don't know fewrwert - so you may be right you may be wrong about reincarnations

but what has that to do with what he says

your last two posts make no contribution to this debate at all.

i am very surprised that any thais at all gave a view pro a royal pardon. a non issue

[Samuian]

i am very surprised that any thais at all gave a view pro a royal pardon. a non issue

How can anyone be sure the result hasn't been reached by manipulation?

what or who are 4-5000 "households", in a nation with wide differing ethnicity, "representing"?

[hammered]

They will succeed with free and fair elections, if one-person-one-vote Democracy is not eliminated first.

Maybe if they use the one person one weighted vote in a first past the post constituency system as in all recent Thai elections. One person one exactly equal vote on a pure PR system with no wasted votes due to first past the post would likely see a lot more complicated picture and be a lot lot more democratic if anyone actually cares about improving democracy. Then again nobody in Thailand wants unweighted votes and doesnt care about the lost votes caused by first past the post systems and never has.

Edited to add: and no side in this power play gives a toss about democracy beyond some manipulated version that suits their power aims.

Edited July 13, 2009 by hammered

[sriracha john]

They will succeed with free and fair elections, if one-person-one-vote Democracy is not eliminated first.

Reading through all your postings I got the impression you might be the incarnation of someone who was recently banned from this forum...

...as a further reading of the forum's banned list gives the impression that's usually the case with most members who were/are proponents of his similarly positive Thaksin/TRT/PPP/PRT ilk over the past 3 years.

Edited July 13, 2009 by sriracha john

[Oberkommando]

All powered by the megalomaniac ego of one giant Narcissus, who just can't give up!

Funny, I thought the same when the coup happened, but of course not about Thaksin.

Thaksin will never serve a day in jail, nor be properly punished for his alleged crimes whether he is pardoned or not, so it's a moot point.

They can't set a precedent by properly punishing one of their own, it will just never be done.

[hammered]

All powered by the megalomaniac ego of one giant Narcissus, who just can't give up!

Funny, I thought the same when the coup happened, but of course not about Thaksin.

Thaksin will never serve a day in jail, nor be properly punished for his alleged crimes whether he is pardoned or not, so it's a moot point.

They can't set a precedent by properly punishing one of their own, it will just never be done.

This is true reffering to Thaksin.

However, both sides have created another problem in that leaders of violent protests either have been charged or are facing charges of big prison time offences. It seems unlikely leaders from either side will go down as it will set the precedent you mention. However, the problem is that to ensure no punishment gives a green light to future violent protest when things are not liked with no expectation of punishment. That precedent is potentially very damaging for any development of true demcoracy.

[baht&sold]

The following recent quotes may resonate:

Cutout is apt stand-in

-Red shirt leader Veera Musikhapong refuses to meet PM Abhisit face-to-face on live TV. Surely, if Mr Veera believed in ''true democracy'', as claimed, he'd grab at the chance to show PM Abhisit to be incompetent, having double standards, etc. MP Jatuporn Prompan says the red shirt's refusal to debate PM Abhisit is because PM Abhisit's government is illegitimate, but this argument holds no water.

PM Abhisit was chosen by the same set of MPs that chose two prior governments and by the same constitutional procedures. If the current government is illegitimate, why didn't the red shirts march against, say, PM Samak?

(Burin Kantabura letter) Bangkok Post July 3: http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...ctive-dithering

The red shirts certainly don't look very loyal

-If the pressure works and a petition is granted, Thaksin Shinawatra and the reds win. If it fails, the petitioners stand a good chance of feeling less affection for the monarchy and more sympathy for Thaksin: once again the fugitive former PM and his red-shirted supporters win.

(Burin Kantabura letter) The Nation July 4: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/worldhotne...look-very-loyal

"Pheu Thai does not need a new leader because Thaksin is already the real leader": Chalerm

-"We have to make it clear instead of being shy. We have a good product so we have to sell it," Chalerm said, laughing.

The Nation July 6: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/07/06...cs_30106751.php

Veera chairman of restructured UDD

-The first activities of the restructured UDD would be to gather signatures of one million people to support a petition to His Majesty the King for a royal pardon for Thaksin Shinawatra and to organise a religious ceremony to mark the former prime minister's 60th birthday in each province, Mr Veera said.

BangkokPost July 9: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1...estructured-udd

Bottom line, seeking a pardon in this manner is entirely inappropriate at best, and at worst, designed to further divide and create rifts to cynically benefit Mr Thaksin.

[sriracha john]

They will succeed with free and fair elections, if one-person-one-vote Democracy is not eliminated first.

Reading through all your postings I got the impression you might be the incarnation of someone who was recently banned from this forum...

I don't know fewrwert - so you may be right you may be wrong about reincarnations

but what has that to do with what he says

I think he's implying that these "Here today/Gone tomorrow" types are not worth the effort to respond to.

[caf]

They will succeed with free and fair elections, if one-person-one-vote Democracy is not eliminated first.

Reading through all your postings I got the impression you might be the incarnation of someone who was recently banned from this forum...

I don't know fewrwert - so you may be right you may be wrong about reincarnations

but what has that to do with what he says

I think he's implying that these "Here today/Gone tomorrow" types are not worth the effort to respond to.

I agree. If you don't want to respond, don't

If you have nothing significant to say, don't post.

He was just rubbishing a poster which is against forum rules - but everyone is doing it and pressing the report button gets you nowhere

[sunholidaysun1]

You have bought into the Thaksin demonization campaign hook-line-and-sinker. I have a piece of property for sale at the North Pole....Interested?

Facts are Facts and the Truth Hurts - INUIT .

[MiG16]

Im going to ask everyone to focus your discussions on the topic at hand

lets not speculate about who is who

if somebody is violating forum rules with any of their posts, it will be dealt with.

until such thing happens, every member is treated with the same universally acceptable application of rules and laws: innocent unless proven guilty.

so I dont see why anyone should be trying to speculate if anyone else is a banned member or not.

if someone is breaking the forum rules with anything they say in their post or PM, please report it to the moderating team.

cheers

[wolf5370]

Im going to ask everyone to focus your discussions on the topic at hand

lets not speculate about who is who

if somebody is violating forum rules with any of their posts, it will be dealt with.

until such thing happens, every member is treated with the same universally acceptable application of rules and laws: innocent unless proven guilty.

so I dont see why anyone should be trying to speculate if anyone else is a banned member or not.

if someone is breaking the forum rules with anything they say in their post or PM, please report it to the moderating team.

cheers

An apt statement for this discussion me thinks - being found guilty is not, it seems, the end of the game here (either for reincarnating posters or Thaksin).

If Thaksin is so innocent, fitted up, whatever (and saying because everyone does it too he should be let off doesn't cut it - do we free murderers because others have got away with it - piffle!) then surely an appeal is the way to go. Stand up and show there is no proof to the accusations, but he did not do this. He ran. Instead, even with all this support, he still ants to go the route of 'forgive and forget'. To my mind, this just shows he is guilty and jut trying to get away with it.

Edited July 13, 2009 by wolf5370

[Samuian]

..........edited...

However, the problem is that to ensure no punishment gives a green light to future violent protest when things are not liked with no expectation of punishment. That precedent is potentially very damaging for any development of true demcoracy.

I wouldn't be too sure on this one!

There is a first move .... we will have to wait and see...

otherwise the interference wouldn't make any sense at all!

And I don't think the development of the last, say 18 month or so...

can be simply labeled "power play", which many do refer to, it';s simply too simple

!

Mr.Thaksin started to challenge the system, the authorites

which no one ever before ever dare to - remember Suchinda?

And how "long" is that ago, it won;t be repeated, not in this case!

This man has taken it an inch or two, too far!

[Artisi]

Can banned TV members receive a pardon if they can garner enough signatures

[MiG16]

Artisi

Ive made a request that people only discuss the topic at hand. you can either be nice and oblige the request. or I can simply stop being nice and take actions.

also remember that discussing moderation in public is against forum rules. you may start the statement out as a joke, but thats where this will lead.

so any more of such attempts to derail /divert from the topic from anyone, and warnings will be given.