Water Canon Used Against Chiang Mai Redshirt’s - 14 Police Injured

[mca]

I think the thing for me is the people who voted for TRT and PPP regarding their policies who get lumped in with the "Pro-Thaksin/Red Shirt thugs" group.

A western educated Thai friend of mine voted this way and he certainly has no love for Thaksin but considered these parties to be the best option at the time compared to the Democrats as is his democratic right. In elections way back he was a staunch Democrat. As he said to me "How would you feel if your vote was declared null and void not once but twice?"

I live in Khon Kaen and quite a number of people I know feel the same way.  They're not thugs. They're not on the gravy train for handouts. Their vote wasn't bought. They weren't instructed to vote a certain way by some influential person. They voted as they saw fit. Now they feel that any vote they cast not in favour of who the Puu Yai want in power is a wasted vote. And they're angry. 

[otherstuff1957]

I sometimes wonder if the future holds two Thailands: The Republic of Thailand in the N & NE & The Kingdom of Thailand in the Center & South.

[ianh68]

For anyone interested the hobby post referred to at the start of this thread can be found here.

[dbrenn]

always seems to be a large number of PAD yellow shirt supporters in TV = amazes me and just wonder if they all condone the taking over of the airports, govt house etc etc - the total destruction of public and private property, their use of force including weapons - and the leaders total disregard and displays of utter contempt for law and order - the latest being their demands and no acceptance of charges filed agaist them by police -they just laugh at at this -- and the MP who scoffs at the law of the land -ok the red shirt DJ had a weapon in his car which was stupid - but i just wonder if this had been a PAD guy would the reaction here be the same -- perhaps a lot of member would be yelling their support for him as quick as they are to put down the red shirts

The government recently stated that it planned to counter the negative reports in the foreign media that condemned its actions in overthrowing an elected government. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the government spin team had signed up as TV users and elsewhere as a way of making good on this and spreading their 'it never happened' propaganda.

Yes, the reds are violent. But to portray the PAD as non-violent innocents is just plain ridiculous. There was footage of them firing guns in the street, and 'PAD guards' (thugs) were in attendance at their demonstrations to intimidate those who opposed them. So much for their peaceful protest.

Edited July 19, 2009 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

I think the thing for me is the people who voted for TRT and PPP regarding their policies who get lumped in with the "Pro-Thaksin/Red Shirt thugs" group.

That's a 'for us or agaainst us' tactic used by a lot of posters here. They unquestioningly believe all the propaganda that cons them into thinking that the sum total of this mess amounts to nothing more than love or hatred of Thaksin. There are actually many more dimensions to how Thais feel about this, and Thaksin is more a minor issue than a root cause.

Westerners seem particularly susceptible to this silly "only the reds are violent and it's all Thaksin's fault" simplistic propaganda - many do not speak or read the language and so must rely on the Bangkok Post or Nation as their only sources of information.

Edited July 19, 2009 by dbrenn

[Insight]

I think the thing for me is the people who voted for TRT and PPP regarding their policies who get lumped in with the "Pro-Thaksin/Red Shirt thugs" group.

A western educated Thai friend of mine voted this way and he certainly has no love for Thaksin but considered these parties to be the best option at the time compared to the Democrats as is his democratic right. In elections way back he was a staunch Democrat. As he said to me "How would you feel if your vote was declared null and void not once but twice?"

I live in Khon Kaen and quite a number of people I know feel the same way.  They're not thugs. They're not on the gravy train for handouts. Their vote wasn't bought. They weren't instructed to vote a certain way by some influential person. They voted as they saw fit. Now they feel that any vote they cast not in favour of who the Puu Yai want in power is a wasted vote. And they're angry. 

Your friend must be able to spare a bit of love for the guy, given that Phua Thai and all their previous incarnations have consistently declared their desire to get Thaksin back and his charges dropped. In fact, that's pretty much all they've been doing over the past few years.

Are you sure your friend has been reading the pamphlets correctly?

[Publicus]

Airports were ordered closed by the authorities not the yellow shirts who were protesting outside the airport but were forced to go inside after grenade launchers were used against them. Recession in Thailand may have been hastened by the airport closure & subsequent tourist cancellations but the current recession is truly due to the financial crisis which originated in America & from which most of the world is now suffering.

Red shirt rioting in isolated parts of Bangkok made dramatic headlines while the rest of the city & the country continued to enjoy Songkran. The antics of the red shirts in CM portray them as thugs because everything they do is totally anti democracy. They are responsible for at least one death, closed down the gay parade while the police looked on, prevented the health minister from performing his role in checking on influenza 2009, & tried to stop the finance minister from performing his role.

I think the red shirts have a deliberate campaign to stop the government from performing their governing role in red shirt strangleholds & they refuse to engage in any meaningful dialogue.

As for double standard I read almost everyday about yellow shirts having to surrender to the police to face charges resulting from the airport closure & have yet to see anything about fast tracking prosecutions against red shirts although they too have surrendered to face charges apart from Jakrapob who has fled the scene.

Well you are half right - we hear a lot of talk about yellow shirts having to surrender to the police, etcetera, etcetera, but still no tangible action yet, like perpetrators gettinng thrown in jail. All talk, no action, does nothing to convince people that this whole recconciliation is anything more than a PR stunt. And so the violence continues, to the detriment of all.

Let's not forget that guns were used in the PAD riots too. It was all on the news - plain as day, but it's alright when they do it

It's simply not true to single out the red shirts only as violent thugs. The yellows were using exactly the same tactics, and caused far more damage when they closed down the airports.

This mess will never end while such hypocrisy prevails, more's the pity.

It's a single standard: Anarchy.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Publicus

[mca]

^^Guess he's looking at what is in his opinion the lesser of 2 evils for his country. Same as the people who voted Labour but didn't like Tony Blair. Pamphlets? Guess he's educated enough to make up his own mind without it being spoonfed to him. Like I said, he voted TRT when Thaksin was in power before he was kicked out. Didn't like Thaksin. Liked the policies. Possibly he was looking at what he thought was in his opinion the bigger picture and benefit for Thailand.

And I do speak as a person who loathes Thaksin myself.

Edited July 19, 2009 by mca

[brahmburgers]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

If you ask me, the root cause for the Red shirts is wanting more money. They see Thaksin as the richest person, so they naturally think, "if I support a very rich person, then it will help me get more money, or at least forgiveness for my loans (one of T's 3 main platforms). T's other two main platforms was OTOP program (with dubious success) and the 30 baht hospital thing, which was also dubiously successful, though not at all a success for the hundreds of doctors who quit the public sector because wages became too low.

Actually, we all know what T's prime real objectives were: total power control, and self enrichment for himself (primarily), and secondarily for his family and inner circle of 'yes men.' All else was window dressing.

Interestingly, T says a lot by his silence on certain issues. For example, he never expressed regrets for the following:

>>>> injuries and deaths of PAD demonstrators (fellow Thais, were they not?)

>>>> no regrets over the shutting down ASEAN meet in Pattaya by his ardent supporters.

>>>> ditto over riots in Bangkok in April.

>>>> T. continues to express no remorse re; 8 policemen seriously injured in recent demonstrations in Chiang Mai.

T continues to show his disdain for Thailand. He will gladly run Thailand through the mud, if if helps him unfreeze his ill-begotten gains from tax evasion and his other ruses.

Edited July 19, 2009 by brahmburgers

[animatic]

Airports were ordered closed by the authorities not the yellow shirts who were protesting outside the airport but were forced to go inside after grenade launchers were used against them. Recession in Thailand may have been hastened by the airport closure & subsequent tourist cancellations but the current recession is truly due to the financial crisis which originated in America & from which most of the world is now suffering.

Red shirt rioting in isolated parts of Bangkok made dramatic headlines while the rest of the city & the country continued to enjoy Songkran. The antics of the red shirts in CM portray them as thugs because everything they do is totally anti democracy. They are responsible for at least one death, closed down the gay parade while the police looked on, prevented the health minister from performing his role in checking on influenza 2009, & tried to stop the finance minister from performing his role.

I think the red shirts have a deliberate campaign to stop the government from performing their governing role in red shirt strangleholds & they refuse to engage in any meaningful dialogue.

As for double standard I read almost everyday about yellow shirts having to surrender to the police to face charges resulting from the airport closure & have yet to see anything about fast tracking prosecutions against red shirts although they too have surrendered to face charges apart from Jakrapob who has fled the scene.

Yes it may be slow, but it is proceeding at Thai speed.

Sadly the Reds learned the slow the government thing from the Yellows,

but their way is MUCH less effective it seems.

The Yellows seemed to drag Somchai and company to a halt...

the reds only slow down road trips of the present cabinet.

But the Reds in general are MUCH more violent, much more regularly, S.O.P.

not a occasional anomaly. The Reds have several years of using violence to silence all

opposition speech, and actually, IMO, inadvertently created and agrandized the Yellows

as their logical mirror image. Instead of a balanced dialog between opposing ideas,

they increasingly made it a militant styled counter agression movement.

All too sad.

Another double standard.

For 4+ years up north, Reds can talk say what ever they like,

but all other speakers get beatings until they leave.

Not just PAD, but Dems and all other competing ideologies.

'What the people don't know can't hurt us in the next election.'

Edited July 19, 2009 by animatic

[animatic]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, ad nauseum.

Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111,

Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111,

Free the 2.2 billion dollars too.

Do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around,

and that's what it's all about!

[animatic]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

If you ask me, the root cause for the Red shirts is wanting more money. They see Thaksin as the richest person, so they naturally think, "if I support a very rich person, then it will help me get more money, or at least forgiveness for my loans (one of T's 3 main platforms). T's other two main platforms was OTOP program (with dubious success) and the 30 baht hospital thing, which was also dubiously successful, though not at all a success for the hundreds of doctors who quit the public sector because wages became too low.

Actually, we all know what T's prime real objectives were: total power control, and self enrichment for himself (primarily), and secondarily for his family and inner circle of 'yes men.' All else was window dressing.

Interestingly, T says a lot by his silence on certain issues. For example, he never expressed regrets for the following:

>>>> injuries and deaths of PAD demonstrators (fellow Thais, were they not?)

>>>> no regrets over the shutting down ASEAN meet in Pattaya by his ardent supporters.

>>>> ditto over riots in Bangkok in April.

>>>> T. continues to express no remorse re; 8 policemen seriously injured in recent demonstrations in Chiang Mai.

T continues to show his disdain for Thailand. He will gladly run Thailand through the mud, if if helps him unfreeze his ill-begotten gains from tax evasion and his other ruses.

Spot on again.

Freedom fighters ; With the freedom to go pretty muchg where ever they wish,

and pretty much whenever they wish,

change jobs, not have jobs, marry whom they please, wear what they like,

and say most anything they wish. Vote for their leaders under an organized system

and have political parties of their choosing.

Yet they feel subjugated when they can't use violence to their ends,

and put upon when some one disagrees with their ideas.

One major reason Thaksin got removed was his increasing use of street level violent

activists attacking dissenting voices and media to try and get his way....

Edited July 19, 2009 by animatic

[bdenner]

Who cares about the red shirts?

I care. Any group that gets weapons and goes around looking for trouble is a group that I'm concerned about. Kudos to C.Mai police force for standing tall and facing the trouble makers.

I bet even bdenner would care if his brother or father were in ICU due to Red Shirters.

You missed the point! My comment was mainly directed to the 2nd post where he/she quoted the entire OP (which I see has been removed now). Why do people need to do that?

As for red, yellow, purple or pink with black spots! Six of one and half a dozen of the other, there are "paid" antagonists and trouble makers amongst all of the them, this sort of behaviour is getting boring.

[csolgosz]

Who cares about the red shirts?

I care. Any group that gets weapons and goes around looking for trouble is a group that I'm concerned about. Kudos to C.Mai police force for standing tall and facing the trouble makers.

I bet even bdenner would care if his brother or father were in ICU due to Red Shirters.

You missed the point! My comment was mainly directed to the 2nd post where he/she quoted the entire OP (which I see has been removed now). Why do people need to do that?

As for red, yellow, purple or pink with black spots! Six of one and half a dozen of the other, there are "paid" antagonists and trouble makers amongst all of the them, this sort of behaviour is getting boring.

You are not wrong!!! So are the pathetic one-eyed supporters of both groups (but more particularly the short-memoried yellows) on this forum. Either know-all ancient farangs who sit around in bars in the cities all the time talking about it, or Thais who paid under the table for their education and think they have an opinion because someone else told them it was so.

I have only one question. As it is clear enough that Thailand has been on the verge of anarchy for long enough now, why not hold another election with all parties signing first to support honest campaigning and accept the results? Because NOBODY wants to lose face!!! Maybe the situation will still be the same in another 20 years...

Edited July 19, 2009 by csolgosz

[bob6023]

Water cannons do work good. Thais hate water anyways.

Now let the police crack some thick heads.

Too bad some cops got hurt, but good work keep it up and the cowards will go away.

[bayrider1505]

There are all forms of terrorism. We must use that term carefully. When 911 occurred, albeit it was extremely painful to the American people it DID not cost America 2% of their GDP. By the sheer act of callousness and stupidity the PAD has cost the country of Thailand 2% of their GDP. What does that translate to? Thai Children will have less food, less education, less necessities of life.

I am just overwhelmed that no one understand the implications of LOSING 476 BILLION BAHT does to the THAI PEOPLE. IT IS TAKING FOOD OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE CHILDREN OF THAILAND, IT IS ROBBING THEM OF THEIR FUTURE by depriving of them the money they need to better themselves from EDUCATION.

I am not Thai, so there is nothing I am able to do to prevent what PAD does or not do. I also have zero say in what the Red Shirts do. It just hurts me because I love the Thai people and I see the pain that is in store for them because of the actions of the misguided. I just hope they will wake up and understand that they are "one people" and they must not fight amongst themselves and fight for the future of Thailand.

[scorecard]

Who cares about the red shirts? All I need to know is why do members like 'Timekeeper' have to QUOTE the OP and use unnecessary bandwidth!

Sorry, can't possibly agree with your comment.

Freedom of speech for everybody to have their say / make their comment is one of the most important / most valuable pillars of democracy and I'll defend it to the death.

[scotbeve]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

Thank you mc2 for being another poster who has posted a sensible reply to some of the elitist rabble that visit here and post their verbal detritus...

[hansnl]

Red Shirt = 150 Baht at local store.

Yellow Shirt = 150 Baht at local store.

Forced Closing of Airport for 2 weeks by the PAD = 2% of GDP of THAILAND. 14 Billion DOLLARS! 476 Billion Baht!

Given that Thailand's GDP is estimated at $648 Billion dollars for 2009.

Projected growth rate of Thai economy is at 1.8 by the Thai government(which means they have replaced a Prime minister that they didn't like with another Prime minister that they hate even more! to push themselves into RECESSION - given that now they have negative growth of -.2% due to the airport closure). I think the PAD should face the consequences of their actions since 476 Billion Baht will buy a lot of rice and it means that THAI children might go hungry because of the callousness of their actions.

Priceless. I cry for Thailand. I LOVE THE THAI PEOPLE and it pains me to see this.

I agree, the closure of the airport did not help.

But I refuse to believe that the damage done to Thailand is only to blame on the closing of the airports.

The biggest problem for Thailand is the world's economic recession.

Thailand definitely does not push itself into a recession, it are outside influences!

I wonder if another government coalition would have reacted better on the outside influences.

The negative images generated by the authorities and the choices made are the second biggest problem for tourism to Thailand.

The way Thailand is developing politically;

The way Thai people are behaving to tourists;

And so on.

It also pains me, but, I cannot change it.

It seems to me that the Thai people made choices.

Or at least, agree with the choices made in their name.

So be it.

\

Edited July 19, 2009 by hansnl

[roger1999]

I live in the neighboorhood. While I did not see any protesting or protestors, I can confirm that Nimmanhaemin Road was closed for part of the day Thursday, and I saw 7-8 large police vans carting away prisoners or people who had just been arrested. Must have been 100+ of them.

[baht&sold]

The video report shows the fracas took off from late-night on into Fri morning

VIDEO: http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_asia/...2686280838.html

On the 'larger issue', It's pathetic for anyone on any side to tacitly approve of violence based on 'hey, they did it too'...

Red/Yellow/Blue, enough already.

Better to try and get through the perfect storms Thailand is facing on all fronts - economy, flu-fear and ongoing political violence. Best to let things stabilise and then on to elections, hopefully by year-end. Calling elections now would leave a vacant govt for min 3 months right in the midst of the 'perfect storms'.

Edited July 19, 2009 by baht&sold

[bayrider1505]

Red Shirt = 150 Baht at local store.

Yellow Shirt = 150 Baht at local store.

Forced Closing of Airport for 2 weeks by the PAD = 2% of GDP of THAILAND. 14 Billion DOLLARS! 476 Billion Baht!

Given that Thailand's GDP is estimated at $648 Billion dollars for 2009.

Projected growth rate of Thai economy is at 1.8 by the Thai government(which means they have replaced a Prime minister that they didn't like with another Prime minister that they hate even more! to push themselves into RECESSION - given that now they have negative growth of -.2% due to the airport closure). I think the PAD should face the consequences of their actions since 476 Billion Baht will buy a lot of rice and it means that THAI children might go hungry because of the callousness of their actions.

Priceless. I cry for Thailand. I LOVE THE THAI PEOPLE and it pains me to see this.

I agree, the closure of the airport did not help.

But I refuse to believe that the damage done to Thailand is only to blame on the closing of the airports.

The biggest problem for Thailand is the world's economic recession.

Thailand definitely does not push itself into a recession, it are outside influences!

I wonder if another government coalition would have reacted better on the outside influences.

The negative images generated by the authorities and the choices made are the second biggest problem for tourism to Thailand.

The way Thailand is developing politically;

The way Thai people are behaving to tourists;

And so on.

It also pains me, but, I cannot change it.

It seems to me that the Thai people made choices.

Or at least, agree with the choices made in their name.

So be it.

\

555

[bayrider1505]

Red Shirt = 150 Baht at local store.

Yellow Shirt = 150 Baht at local store.

Forced Closing of Airport for 2 weeks by the PAD = 2% of GDP of THAILAND. 14 Billion DOLLARS! 476 Billion Baht!

Given that Thailand's GDP is estimated at $648 Billion dollars for 2009.

Projected growth rate of Thai economy is at 1.8 by the Thai government(which means they have replaced a Prime minister that they didn't like with another Prime minister that they hate even more! to push themselves into RECESSION - given that now they have negative growth of -.2% due to the airport closure). I think the PAD should face the consequences of their actions since 476 Billion Baht will buy a lot of rice and it means that THAI children might go hungry because of the callousness of their actions.

Priceless. I cry for Thailand. I LOVE THE THAI PEOPLE and it pains me to see this.

I agree, the closure of the airport did not help.

But I refuse to believe that the damage done to Thailand is only to blame on the closing of the airports.

The biggest problem for Thailand is the world's economic recession.

Thailand definitely does not push itself into a recession, it are outside influences!

I wonder if another government coalition would have reacted better on the outside influences.

The negative images generated by the authorities and the choices made are the second biggest problem for tourism to Thailand.

The way Thailand is developing politically;

The way Thai people are behaving to tourists;

And so on.

It also pains me, but, I cannot change it.

It seems to me that the Thai people made choices.

Or at least, agree with the choices made in their name.

So be it.

\

555

Of course, it is the fault of the world that Thai Children will have less, 555. Edited July 19, 2009 by bayrider1505

[mc2]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, ad nauseum.

Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111,

Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111,

Free the 2.2 billion dollars too.

Do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around,

and that's what it's all about!

what sort of nonsense, childish response was that

you can do better, eg your poem style responses

[scorecard]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

If you ask me, the root cause for the Red shirts is wanting more money. They see Thaksin as the richest person, so they naturally think, "if I support a very rich person, then it will help me get more money, or at least forgiveness for my loans (one of T's 3 main platforms). T's other two main platforms was OTOP program (with dubious success) and the 30 baht hospital thing, which was also dubiously successful, though not at all a success for the hundreds of doctors who quit the public sector because wages became too low.

Actually, we all know what T's prime real objectives were: total power control, and self enrichment for himself (primarily), and secondarily for his family and inner circle of 'yes men.' All else was window dressing.

Interestingly, T says a lot by his silence on certain issues. For example, he never expressed regrets for the following:

>>>> injuries and deaths of PAD demonstrators (fellow Thais, were they not?)

>>>> no regrets over the shutting down ASEAN meet in Pattaya by his ardent supporters.

>>>> ditto over riots in Bangkok in April.

>>>> T. continues to express no remorse re; 8 policemen seriously injured in recent demonstrations in Chiang Mai.

T continues to show his disdain for Thailand. He will gladly run Thailand through the mud, if if helps him unfreeze his ill-begotten gains from tax evasion and his other ruses.

Spot on again.

Freedom fighters ; With the freedom to go pretty muchg where ever they wish,

and pretty much whenever they wish,

change jobs, not have jobs, marry whom they please, wear what they like,

and say most anything they wish. Vote for their leaders under an organized system

and have political parties of their choosing.

Yet they feel subjugated when they can't use violence to their ends,

and put upon when some one disagrees with their ideas.

One major reason Thaksin got removed was his increasing use of street level violent

activists attacking dissenting voices and media to try and get his way....

The red shirts are "freedom fighters".

Would the original poster of this line please explain in depth what you mean. Fighters for specifically what?

In fact not long back the red shirts suddenly claimed they were the new champions of democracy and they would fight to achieve 'nothing less than international standards of democracy as seen in the worlds most developed countries'. This almost exactly word for word what they said.

Well I put it to you:

- If you asked all of the red shirts individually (and especially the CM 51 red shirt mob, individually) what 'democracy' means / what it looks like / what it feels like / how do you achieve it / how do you maintain it / what are the most important pillars of democracy / the severe threats to democracy, etc., then I suggest not more than 1% could even begin to answer the question.

Why? Because they are the typical sector of any society who:

- Are easily convinced to join whatever 'cause' suddenly popps up in front of them, and of course you get a red T shirt, symbolic of being part of a group (and in Thai social behavior being part of 'a group' has meaning)(comment not meant to be a criticism of Thai culture or social behavior).

- Will join whatevers at hand for the 'salary'.

And there's another point which hasn't really been raised. A few months ago Taxsin suddenly thought of a new strategy 'make it sound like the red shirts are the champions of democracy'.

For months and months before this new strategy the red shrts never mentioned 'democracy' Just another example of how cunning taxsin is, and I will give taxsin credit for one thing, he is a clever strategist, but pity he didn't use it to the positive benefits for all Thais.

In fact, taxsin himself now claims he is the champion of democracy for all Thais. But just think back to his dictatorship:

- He made public speeches saying "Democracy is not necessary for Thailand / Democracy is not important for Thailand".

- He openly, deliberately, and blatantly destroyed many of the pillars of democracy.

- He intimated / controlled the media (do you remember the incident when a western journalist asked him a very valid question, and taxsin's response was "idiot scum", and the journalist was promptly deported.

- He intimidated / controlled the Electoral Commission (three or four of the commissions eventually were convicted and sent to jail), and the judiciary and it's only of very recent times that the judiciary has to some extent gained it's courage and regained it's credibility.

- His legal term conveniently left a snack box at a court with a 3million Baht gift for the court staff and his lawyers very convicted and all served 6 or 8 months in jail.

- He bought massive numbers of votes to 'win' two elctions. Clever but pretty nasty strategies, just turn up at the right time with another bag of rice / a few telephone cards etc. Blatantly taking advantage of large numbers of uninformed poor people.

- He also looked for any other large groups who he could easily 'buy'. Taxi drivers is the most obvious example of this, promising them (as a specific group) free homes, free cars etc., etc., all at tax payers expense.

- He instructed the ex/im bank of Thailand to loan large amounts of money to Burma so that the thug generals could buy products and services from his company.

- He supervised the killing (shoot on sight) of 2,500 men, women and children in his war on drugs, but not one (NOT ONE) high profile drug king-pin was ever caught, in fact the police never got close to a major drug seller. Expect for the fact that Thailand has never signed the final documents regarding treaties about the cooperation and the application of international laws about human rights, taxsin would have already been tried in the International Court of Justice in the Hague for crimes against humanity and clearly he would have been convicted, the evidence is overwhelming.

- and more...

Taxsin, the chamion of democracy? Well, sorry but leopards don't change their spots.

What does taksin really want? Easy answer - his money, much of it gained through cronyism etc etc., and he will ruthlessly follow any strategy he thinks that might get his hands on the money. And we should all recognize that he will stop at nothing to get his hands on these ill-gotten funds.

Another point, taxsin claims he wants things rolled back to before the 'illegal' coup which overthrew him and he's now saying 'coups are unacceptable', and now he's cunningly (of more recent times) scripting his red shirts to make the same claims / demands.

Well if taxsin is really serious and sincere about 'roll back' then he must respect a total 'roll back' to the situation before any coup. Further, if he respected a total 'roll back' then he must also accept that any government elected after the first ever coup is illegitimate, including his two bought elections.

Also, taxsin seems to have conveniently forgotten that he 'acquired' his telecom licence from general S. one of the high profile leaders of the violent military coup / dictatorship which seized power in 1992. He got his telecom licence under orders signed by a military government which came into being through a coup, and he got the licence in a scenario where the availablility of telecom licences was not public knowledge (in fact the whole concept was invented in 5 minutes) and there was no public bidding etc., for licences.

General S died a few years ago, a very wealthy man.

Back to the red shirts, they say they want: 'nothing less than international standards of democracy as seen in the worlds most developed countries'.

Then:

- They rough up people who they don't agree with (including monks at prayer)

- They take it upon themselves to be a vigilanty gang 'protecting the morals of CM', when in fact the group they violently attached had a legitimate approval from the CM local council to conduct an organized gay street parade. (And although they probably don't want to know about it, it's very likely by simple percentages that many of them (as in any country) have children or close relatives who are gay)

- They try to disrupt a minister from going about his normal and proper duties, and the state has to provide large numbers of police to ensure his physical safety, at massive expense, using tax payers funds which should be spent on better things.

- They try to prevent people from speaking.

- They carry guns and they used guns at their recent mob recent stand off at a local CM police station demaning that one of their people who had clearly broken the law be released immediately and with no further action. Never mind respecting the properly constructed laws that all citizens should respect, never mind respect for the proper processes of law after someone has clearly broken the law (in other words, no respect whatever for one of the most important pillars of building and maintaining democracy).

Sorry for the rant, I'll go back to my original question:

Please explain in depth what you mean by the red shirts being freedom fighters.

[animatic]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, Roots, ad nauseum.

Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111,

Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111, Free Thaksin, Free the 111,

Free the 2.2 billion dollars too.

Do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around,

and that's what it's all about!

what sort of nonsense, childish response was that

you can do better, eg your poem style responses

An indictment of the continual request for getting to 'the root of the problems',

while still allowing the sides to be violent in their demands.

And it is chanting in pared down graphic form.

Just picture a crowd, yelling this over and over, and how childish this seems....

It is sarcasm and an indictment of the essence of the way things

are being aimed by these so called freedom fighters.

Sound bites on the page.

That's why the media has pundits, to spin the sound bites.

Edited July 19, 2009 by animatic

[Scott]

The yellows have the elite power to speak for them--and they speak through multiple institutions. The Reds have no voice, but they sure can make a lot of noise.

[bayrider1505]

To understand the magnitude of 476 Billion Baht you just have to imagine this:

It cost approximately 2,000 Baht to feed an elderly Thai person for a month. 230 Billion will feed 9.58 Million elderly Thais for 1 year.

It cost approximately 50,000 Baht/year to pay for the FOOD, EDUCATION, and TRANSPORTATION needs of a Thai school children. 230 Billion will educate and care for 4.6 Million Thai Children for 1 year.

Plus you have 16 Billion left over for spare change.

So, 476 BILLION Baht will enable THAILAND to take care of ALL THE ELDERLY THAI people in THAILAND, plus PAY FOR THE EDUCATION and NEEDS of ALL THE THAI CHILDREN in THAILAND for the year 2009 if PAD DIDN'T STAGE A protest at the AIRPORT. That 476 BILLION IS GONE! Nothing anyone do will bring it back! The FOOD and sustenance for the entire THAILAND and the future of the Thai children is all forsaken just so a bunch of political malcontents wanted to stage a protest... 555 I don't know whether I should laugh or cry myself to sleep every night knowing that! I would think PAD organizers and sympathizers should reflect on what they DID to their own people. I don't think any foreign terrorist could have done a better job than they have.

[ballpoint]

Terrorist red shirts, trying to overthrow their own country by violence

They are not terrorists they are freedom fighters

and although i dont condone violence i think the government must do more to address the root cause of red shirt grievences

They're not freedom fighters, they're very naughty boys

[ballpoint]

To understand the magnitude of 476 Billion Baht you just have to imagine this:

It cost approximately 2,000 Baht to feed an elderly Thai person for a month. 230 Billion will feed 9.58 Million elderly Thais for 1 year.

It cost approximately 50,000 Baht/year to pay for the FOOD, EDUCATION, and TRANSPORTATION needs of a Thai school children. 230 Billion will educate and care for 4.6 Million Thai Children for 1 year.

Plus you have 16 Billion left over for spare change.

So, 476 BILLION Baht will enable THAILAND to take care of ALL THE ELDERLY THAI people in THAILAND, plus PAY FOR THE EDUCATION and NEEDS of ALL THE THAI CHILDREN in THAILAND for the year 2009 if PAD DIDN'T STAGE A protest at the AIRPORT. That 476 BILLION IS GONE! Nothing anyone do will bring it back! The FOOD and sustenance for the entire THAILAND and the future of the Thai children is all forsaken just so a bunch of political malcontents wanted to stage a protest... 555 I don't know whether I should laugh or cry myself to sleep every night knowing that! I would think PAD organizers and sympathizers should reflect on what they DID to their own people. I don't think any foreign terrorist could have done a better job than they have.

What a load of tripe. "If the PAD didn't stage a protest all the poor Thais would now be eating caviar and drinking champagne and driving around in BMW's, but now they're all starving, living off UN assistance, waiting for Bob Geldof to arrange a concert for them". I'd cut down on the fire water if I were you.

If the PAD didn't stage a protest, Thaksin would be firmly cemented as the glorious leader by now, with family and cronies in key positions in the military. The poor Thais would be in exactly the same postion as they are today, except he may have killed a few thousand more of them.

You may want to check your caps lock key, it appears to be sticking at times.