Touching The Head - A Definite No No

[sriracha john]

The only other big no no I comited here as a newbie was sitting next to a monk on a bus! Luckily a guy got up and offered to swap seats with me, and I did, finding out later what it was all about!

Guess I should have read 'lonely Planet!!'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is it all about?... I was on the skytrain once, in what I now know to be the monks "seat", a monk got on and gestured me to move, as the skytrain wasnt busy and the monk was a big guy I moved 2 down rather than only to the next one along. He started patting on the one next to him gesturing me to sit there?

Farangs arent supposed to sit next to monks??? Or is the lonely planet talkin a load of nackers for a change

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there's nothing wrong with MALE farang sitting next to monks...

[Steve2UK]

The only other big no no I comited here as a newbie was sitting next to a monk on a bus! Luckily a guy got up and offered to swap seats with me, and I did, finding out later what it was all about!

Guess I should have read 'lonely Planet!!'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is it all about?... I was on the skytrain once, in what I now know to be the monks "seat", a monk got on and gestured me to move, as the skytrain wasnt busy and the monk was a big guy I moved 2 down rather than only to the next one along. He started patting on the one next to him gesturing me to sit there?

Farangs arent supposed to sit next to monks??? Or is the lonely planet talkin a load of nackers for a change

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lost count of the number of the number of times novice monks would come and start talking with me when I've been sitting at Wat Arun (just about my favourite place to sit and "chill") - usually to show me their English language workbooks and ask me questions about the exercises. Sometimes they would scatter if a senior monk came into view, sometimes not.

Also at Wat Arun, I got talking with a university-age monk. Not a problem there, but we walked later to a local market and he did indicate that I shouldn't be unnecessarily close to him "in public". He invited me to see his own Wat college and we took the boat with me standing a little way away (although it was obvious that we were travelling together). When we got to the other Wat, we went to get a drink at the monk's "refectory" - again sitting together chatting and with many other monks coming and going with nothing but smiles and nods to me. By the way, he also took me to see his dorm room - complete with Sony stereo and his collection of Whitney Houston CD's! After that, we went over to Sukhumvit to a bookshop - again he was chatting to me all the while and handing me books he thought I'd find useful for my Thai studies. As my hotel was nearby, I asked him if he'd like to walk there and have a cold drink. We did - and I'll never forget the dropped jaws and wide eyes as we crossed the lobby and got into the lift. After the drinks, I walked him back to the entrance and he got a taxi (I also got HUGE respect from all the staff after that - maybe they thought I was a Vatican envoy ).

Message from all this as I see it? There aren't many absolute rules - i.e. "do this or be shunned"; the thought is more important than the precise action. I think the monk's seat on the Skytrain is less a privileged place for him than an arrangement that helps others observe the custom. When you moved away, you already showed appropriate thought/respect to the monk's status (which he has only from Buddha); after that "gesture" from you, it was an appropriately considerate (and human) gesture from this particular monk to invite you to move next to him. And - it's an example of the "middle way".

Lonely Planet isn't wrong - in that it's providing guidelines that will avoid problems for the inexperienced visitor. But, as that visitor starts to absorb the subtleties - it's possible to interpret and apply them more flexibly - providing your thought is clear to those around. I can't think of a situation I've had where a smile and a gentle inclining of the head didn't sort out any potential embarassment. In more ways than we're used to, it's (showing) the thought that counts.

[Jai Dee]

Message from all this as I see it? There aren't many absolute rules - i.e. "do this or be shunned";  the thought is more important than the precise action. I think the monk's seat on the Skytrain is less a privileged place for him than an arrangement that helps others observe the custom. When you moved away, you already showed appropriate thought/respect to the monk's status (which he has only from Buddha); after that "gesture" from you, it was an appropriately considerate (and human) gesture from this particular monk to invite you to move next to him. And - it's an example of the "middle way".

I found myself nodding in agreement reading through this...

Nice post Steve2UK.

[Neeranam]

This reminded me of a time I saw a pissed farang patting a Thai guy on the head, like you would a dog. The Thai guy was NOT happy about it. I wouldn't have been too happy about it myself. But what the Thai guy did was he went and got a gun and threatened the farang with it. That farang has now left Thailand.

I saw a pissed Geman guy at Soi Cowboy get on the stage and proceed to pat the BIG bouncer on the head with his foot. There was a silence for a couple of seconds and then we watched the guy get slowly knocked around from one Thai to another. Thais stick together and the ones around the tourists spots wait for such a chance to give a farnag ###### a good kicking. The police watched the whole thing too. I've seen this happen on Khao San road too, many times. One farang has a bit too much to drink and does something to offend someone, then the word spreads rapidly and thais come out the woodwork to give the guy a good kicking. Again the police usually sit back and watch until it is over.

[bkkmadness]

I always thought this touching on the head thing translates to the west as well.

I mean you wouldn't start touching or patting some guys head you didn't know in the West either would you?

I think kind of a taboo thing all over the world.

As for the German tapping the bouncer on his head for a foot, West or East he's gonna get a good kickin.

[Neeranam]

I think kind of a taboo thing all over the world.

As for the German tapping the bouncer on his head for a foot, West or East he's gonna get a good kickin.

Much, much more in Thailand than the West.

The german wouldn't have got that much of a kicking in the west.

The bouncer was very very tolerant with him for ages. the touching on the head with the foot would not be tolerated by ANYONE in Thailand.

I have patted kids on the head to piss them off in front of thier friends if they have said something disrespecting me. Be very careful though.

[bkkmadness]

I think kind of a taboo thing all over the world.

As for the German tapping the bouncer on his head for a foot, West or East he's gonna get a good kickin.

Much, much more in Thailand than the West.

The german wouldn't have got that much of a kicking in the west.

The bouncer was very very tolerant with him for ages. the touching on the head with the foot would not be tolerated by ANYONE in Thailand.

I have patted kids on the head to piss them off in front of thier friends if they have said something disrespecting me. Be very careful though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have to disagree there Neeranam, if a pissed up German got on stage in a red light district bar in the UK, and started tapping a bouncer on the head with his foot, then there would have been no toleration by the bouncer at all, and the beating would have been brutal especially if there was no police retribution. It would be closed to attempted suicide in some of the really dodgy bars in the UK, as I imagine in the U.S. too (you're American right?).

I think tapping someone on the head anywhere in the West would not be tolerated by a stranger. Would you tolerate some stranger tapping your head with his foot? I know I wouldn't.

Edited March 1, 2005 by bkkmadness

[Neeranam]

Have to disagree there Neeranam, if a pissed up German got on stage in a red light district bar in the UK, and started tapping a bouncer on the head with his foot, then there would have been no toleration by the bouncer at all, and the beating would have been brutal especially if there was no police retribution. It would be closed to attempted suicide in some of the really dodgy bars in the UK, as I imagine in the U.S. too (you're American right?).

I think tapping someone on the head anywhere in the West would not be tolerated by a stranger. Would you tolerate some stranger tapping your head with his foot? I know I wouldn't.

You are right 'madness'. I didn't explain that very well.

Of course I would't tolerate a stranger tapping my head with his foot.

What I was trying to get across was that it is much worse here.

Oh, and I am not American.

I am from Leith, Lothian.

Edited March 1, 2005 by Neeranam

[bkkmadness]

That's odd, for some reason, don't ask me why, but I thought I read it before that you were African-American, lol, must have been someone with a similar name. I should apolgise really! lol.

I'm still not convinced it's much worse here to be honest. Take the bouncer scenario, the Thai bouncer actually tolerated it for a while, I don't think a Scottish bouncer would have tolerated it for as long.

Of course this is just taking the foot to head example which is extreme. But even with touching of heads, I find the head's a bit of a sacred spot all over the world.

Personally I hate it if someone touches my head that I don't know, and I don't do it to other people, be it Thai or farang.

My point is many of the Thai concepts like touching heads and losing face are also in the West, I am surprised that a lot of people just learn these things here, I would consider them common courtesy back home as well.

Edited March 1, 2005 by bkkmadness

[Marmite the Dog]

I presume its ok to talk and eat popcorn when in the cinema during that interlude with the nice music before the main feature begins?

Actually, I wonder how tolerant the Thais would be if a foreigner did that, even though I see at least one Thai doing it everytime I go to the cinema?

[toastwars]

I think kind of a taboo thing all over the world.

As for the German tapping the bouncer on his head for a foot, West or East he's gonna get a good kickin.

Much, much more in Thailand than the West.

The german wouldn't have got that much of a kicking in the west.

The bouncer was very very tolerant with him for ages. the touching on the head with the foot would not be tolerated by ANYONE in Thailand.

I have patted kids on the head to piss them off in front of thier friends if they have said something disrespecting me. Be very careful though.

Yeah..careful..those little kids..dodgy.

Is a kicking in the west milder than here then?, you havn't knocked around the big market in Newcastle or south shields very much then, another myth perpetuated about Thailand, Thais are the greatest fighters in the world...rubbish, how come in the Muay Thai world championships, held in Bangkok, all but one of the weight classes was won by europeans?

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2005-03-01 12:48:54)

QUOTE

I think kind of a taboo thing all over the world.

As for the German tapping the bouncer on his head for a foot, West or East he's gonna get a good kickin.

Much, much more in Thailand than the West.

The german wouldn't have got that much of a kicking in the west.

The bouncer was very very tolerant with him for ages. the touching on the head with the foot would not be tolerated by ANYONE in Thailand.

I have patted kids on the head to piss them off in front of thier friends if they have said something disrespecting me. Be very careful though.

Yeah..careful..those little kids..dodgy.

Is a kicking in the west milder than here then?, you havn't knocked around the big market in Newcastle or south shields very much then, another myth perpetuated about Thailand, Thais are the greatest fighters in the world...rubbish, how come in the Muay Thai world championships, held in Bangkok, all but one of the weight classes was won by europeans?

Yes I think that generally a kicking in the west is milder. I haven't been to Newcastle or South Shields, but some parts of Scotland are surely just as bad if not worse. I have seen and been involved in many such 'kickings' in the West as they happen more frequently. Here in Thailand they are not so common and so there is a lot of bottled up aggression. Maybe you are right and it's because I have forgotten what it is like back home(haven't been for many years now).

It could be that because the Thais are so tolerant that when they lose it, it seems worse.

What I do now is not get pissed and am very careful when in dodgy situations. I think being brought up where I was has given me a built in warning system for trouble.

I studied Muay Thai here years ago as well as Karate, Wu Shu, Tai Chi back home. The guys I came up against here were as hard as nails, but probably because they all learn to some degree when they are young, unlike the west.

I used to think that Kung &lt;deleted&gt; was much better than Muay Thai, but now I have changed my mind. My daughter is going to be learning Muay thai soon for self-defense, very important for pretty girls in Thailand.

[Neeranam]

That's odd, for some reason, don't ask me why, but I thought I read it before that you were African-American, lol, must have been someone with a similar name. I should apolgise really! lol.

No probs man. I have been called a lot worse, not that there is anything wrong with being African

[tuky]

Oh, and I am not American.

I am from Leith, Lothian.

your from Leith?

[bkkmadness]

That's odd, for some reason, don't ask me why, but I thought I read it before that you were African-American, lol, must have been someone with a similar name. I should apolgise really! lol.

No probs man. I have been called a lot worse, not that there is anything wrong with being African

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It was the American part I was going to apologise for.

Going back to a severe kicking, A guy from my neighbourhood got kicked to death a few months back, don't get much more severe than that.

I think if the German managed to walk away from the situation he was lucky.

What an a.sshole, he deserved it.

[kat]

The touching of head and pointing of feet is still a taboo among many social classes of thai society.  And by this i mean it can be almost any Thai. Granted there are exceptions, relaxed maybe for the benefit of farangs. Yet mainstream Thai's, these values are very much adhered to. In fact it goes slightly further.

It is not polite to bring in contact with the head anything associated with your feet. This is also important in the home. Thai's wouldn’t wash lower garments like socks together with head scarves. The same goes for pillowcases which are used for your head. And would not hang them on the clothes line alongside your socks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I also heard that women's garmets are never placed higher than a man's? Is this true? Also, it is very rude to sit on a pillow, or anything meant for the head, all over SEA.

A couple of weeks ago, I sat next to a well-dressed, older middle-aged Thai woman on the skytrain. She was sitting slightly askew facing me, to look out the window. She didn't rearrange her position, even though someone now occupied space next to her. Her legs were crossed, and her feet were pointing right across my legs and very close to my body and clothing, so that I couldn't even move very much without bumping her shoes. I was pissed, but gave her a reserved but pointed look, and she moved her feet only slightly.

I do lose it sometimes, but very often I repress a lot of shit that I shouldn't have to repress How would others deal with this situation if at all?

My wife claims the neighbor is hanging the underwear up too high on the clothes line.

I didn't think it was a big deal untill the police got involved.

I'm not kidding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unreal. So is the women's garmets thing true, about not being higher than a man's and so forth?

From what i have seen over the years in Isaarn it appears ok to touch the head of those younger or of a lower social rank or immediate family.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I touch the back of children's heads all the time, as a sign of affection, and it is always taken as such. However, I never touch the crown of the head, only the back above the neck. And I don't do this with children older than 10 or 11.

And I touch my female friends' hair, but not really their head, maybe their ponytail, or the ends of their hair. It's never taken badly. If I make a mistake, I just apologize immediately and it's alright.

[Shola]

Unreal. So is the women's garmets thing true, about not being higher than a man's and so forth?

My T-hubby doesn't ask for much, we touch each others heads and put our feet on each other when lounging in the bedroom, but I can't put my underware (Bra's ok) in the wash basket with his clothes, something to do with it being not only disrespectfull but also that it can bring 'bad karma' to the guy if girls knickers touch something that he wears on his back, or that is close to his head.

Being a head strong gal, when I first met him, I argued the point, throwing out words like sexist, ect, I didn't really appriciate the beliefs that had been ingrained in him. Now I've grown up a bit more and fully respect his beliefs, it's really no big deal to me now.

[Peewee]

Feet are worst offence in my experiance. I would also say that to an extent it depends on the age of the people concerned and where you are. Thai people don't like to be humiliated in front of others and you can certainly get away with more if you are older than the other person. I have also noted that in places like Bangkok where they are so used to western ways they have got used to excusing more than folks from out in the sticks would do.

I almost got a round of applause on a plane once when I noticed a lady who had both her feet up on the seat in front of her - who was sitting in that seat on front - a monk. I looked around to see the expressions of the Thai peoples faces sitting around them and you might imagine how much horror was painted all over them. I waited a few seconds to see which of them would act first - surprisingly they were all too embarrassed to do anything. I couldn't stand the electricity in the air and so had a quiet word with the lady to alert her to her possible fate, she immediately withdrew her feet and the crowd around us all let out a deep breath at the same time - it was almost deafening! The lady offender also realised at that time just how big a problem it was for the Thai’s around her and she proceeded to apologise to almost all of them. The monk carried on with his dinner and was the only one around oblivious to what had happened.

[kat]

Unreal.  So is the women's garmets thing true, about not being higher than a man's and so forth?

My T-hubby doesn't ask for much, we touch each others heads and put our feet on each other when lounging in the bedroom, but I can't put my underware (Bra's ok) in the wash basket with his clothes, something to do with it being not only disrespectfull but also that it can bring 'bad karma' to the guy if girls knickers touch something that he wears on his back, or that is close to his head.

Being a head strong gal, when I first met him, I argued the point, throwing out words like sexist, ect, I didn't really appriciate the beliefs that had been ingrained in him. Now I've grown up a bit more and fully respect his beliefs, it's really no big deal to me now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I respect your sentiments as well. But you know that the disrespect and bad karma thing is because according to their spiritual beliefs women are polluted and of lower birth.

[britmaveric]

Unreal.  So is the women's garmets thing true, about not being higher than a man's and so forth?

My T-hubby doesn't ask for much, we touch each others heads and put our feet on each other when lounging in the bedroom, but I can't put my underware (Bra's ok) in the wash basket with his clothes, something to do with it being not only disrespectfull but also that it can bring 'bad karma' to the guy if girls knickers touch something that he wears on his back, or that is close to his head.

Being a head strong gal, when I first met him, I argued the point, throwing out words like sexist, ect, I didn't really appriciate the beliefs that had been ingrained in him. Now I've grown up a bit more and fully respect his beliefs, it's really no big deal to me now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I respect your sentiments as well. But you know that the disrespect and bad karma thing is because according to their spiritual beliefs women are polluted and of lower birth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm wonder how they explain a male being born from a mum's womb? (not so poluted then!! )

[kat]

Yes, that's a very good reply, but also very complicated to explain. And I am sure there is someone out there that can explain it much better. But in a nutshell, the Buddhist SEA male's relationship to his mother is somewhat complicated, spiritually.

In terms of pushing out babies, well yes, we bleed and are dirty, which is why we are "polluted" (according to the traditonal explanations). That is why women cannot enter certain Wats that house ancient relics. There is also a fear of menstural blood, and that we can throw off the power or magic of amulets and things.

So watch out

[Bryan in Isaan]

It seems like much of the trouble from the above posts comes from joking, playing, funning, etc. with the Thais. I might be a killjoy, but I have found it is easier to play it safe not to joke much with them. Humor doesn't translate.

Bryan

there is no room for phrenologists in LOS then ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You got me there - and you made me get my dictionary too. Phrenology does seem somewhat humorous to me and probably most other westerners. Do most Thais find it humorous too, or is it taken seriously. Often, I cannot tell. It appears to me that they are chuckling about something, but they are in fact, dead serious. Just a cultural difference, I suppose.

Bryan

Edited March 2, 2005 by Bryan in Isaan

[cobra]

The touching of head and pointing of feet is still a taboo among many social classes of thai society....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a Korean friend that told me this isn't necessarily a Thai thing, that the custom(s) is common to most Buddhist Asian cultures. The feet being closest to the ground and hence unclean while the head is the highest point and closest to Buddha, something to that effect.

[sbaker8688]

That's interesting... last time I was in Thailand (a few months ago) a girl sucked my toes. I didn't even ask her to. In fact, it's not anything I particularly care for one way or the other, to be honest.

At any rate, I'll try to remember all this "head" and "foot" stuff.

[aughie]

Toe sucking is "new". That's my guess. And she wanted to have a novel gimmick or trademark move is another guess.

can this emoticon be used for toe sucking? looks good for arse kissing.

[Shola]

Unreal.  So is the women's garmets thing true, about not being higher than a man's and so forth?

My T-hubby doesn't ask for much, we touch each others heads and put our feet on each other when lounging in the bedroom, but I can't put my underware (Bra's ok) in the wash basket with his clothes, something to do with it being not only disrespectfull but also that it can bring 'bad karma' to the guy if girls knickers touch something that he wears on his back, or that is close to his head.

Being a head strong gal, when I first met him, I argued the point, throwing out words like sexist, ect, I didn't really appriciate the beliefs that had been ingrained in him. Now I've grown up a bit more and fully respect his beliefs, it's really no big deal to me now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I respect your sentiments as well. But you know that the disrespect and bad karma thing is because according to their spiritual beliefs women are polluted and of lower birth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, that does p1ss me off! But I know Nut (hubby) doesn't really feel that way, it's just the tradition has been ingrained in him, so he doesn't wanna 'chance' any bad luck etc..

Unreal.  So is the women's garmets thing true, about not being higher than a man's and so forth?

My T-hubby doesn't ask for much, we touch each others heads and put our feet on each other when lounging in the bedroom, but I can't put my underware (Bra's ok) in the wash basket with his clothes, something to do with it being not only disrespectfull but also that it can bring 'bad karma' to the guy if girls knickers touch something that he wears on his back, or that is close to his head.

Being a head strong gal, when I first met him, I argued the point, throwing out words like sexist, ect, I didn't really appriciate the beliefs that had been ingrained in him. Now I've grown up a bit more and fully respect his beliefs, it's really no big deal to me now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I respect your sentiments as well. But you know that the disrespect and bad karma thing is because according to their spiritual beliefs women are polluted and of lower birth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm wonder how they explain a male being born from a mum's womb? (not so poluted then!! )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly what I came out with Brit! Along with 'Well how comes you can even have sex with me then??!!'

But of course 'thats all different'!!

I know that apparently the way you curse(bad luck/karma) a man here in the worst way is to put a womans soiled underwear under thier pillow (monthly type soiled).

I never understood that either as in my opinion it's the begginings of life and should be reveared!

Funny how it's supposed to be so bad, and yet in my experience it has never halted any 'activity' with my T hubby!

[gburns57au]

it is the top of the head that is taboo...before I went near any part of a thais head I would try to explain my intent first....This can change depending on the relationship....My ex BIL was hungover and I patted him rather hard on the back of the head to tease him and no offence was taken. However in different circumstances the result may have been different.

The lowering of the body as you walk past people is done by the young to older people. Usually it is a young female walking past an older male. A lot of Thais still believe that a male should never maintain a lower body position than a female. Although the WOT position seems to be exempt.

Pointing your foot at people is bad manners but the Thais will accept it if you have a physical disability and if in the first instance you make the appropiate apologies.

The removal of shoes before entering a house is a practical thing....it means you dont drag the dirt in from outside, and this appears to be an asian rather than a Thai thing.

[toastwars]

Shola:

And you tell me not to make any dirty comments?

But back to the point I like people touching my "head"

Edited March 3, 2005 by toastwars

[Shola]

Shola:

And you tell me not to make any dirty comments?

But back to the point I like people touching my "head"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I thought it was a rather 'discreet' inuendo!

Unlike yours above!!

[p_brownstone]

I know that apparently the way you curse(bad luck/karma) a man here in the worst way is to put a womans soiled underwear under thier pillow (monthly type soiled).

I never understood that either as in my opinion it's the begginings of life and should be reveared!

Funny how it's supposed to be so bad, and yet in my experience it has never halted any 'activity' with my T hubby!

The connection of menstrual blood with bad luck or misfortune is prevelant in many societies - and surely not difficult to understand?

Far from being the "beginning of life" it represents the end of all possible - new - life in that cycle.

Patrick