Unable To Get A Date

[IanForbes]

And if I had to name one lesson learned from the two meetings, it is that one can be extremely lonely in a relationship.

You said a whole lot of truth in that one sentence. I couldn't agree more. And, it's not just in Thai marriages where older men marry much younger women. It happens all over North America, and even in marriages that last 60 years.

[MrHammer]

And BTW, I do pour drinks for men. I also open my own doors. And I always pay for my share of the bill.

That's really all that matters (right Eek?)

“Creating such a fuss” has certainly given my daily routine some twists and turns. Yes, I did get a number of good advice from the forum, and more specific ones from private messages sent by very decent men which makes me want to let the foreign women reading this thread know that all is not lost for the Western and Western-educated women in BKK. Looking for a needle in the haystack is what it is going to be like, but the decent men are out there. It is just a matter of finding the opportunity to meet them. And ironically, these decent men find themselves in the same predicament.

Have you tried flirting on the skytrain, in shopping malls? If you see a man you like, why not catch his eye and hold for a little too long, if he's available and has some balls he'll certainly approach you, as long as you look friendly. Why should we limit ourselves to bars, work or friends? Then life becomes a series of "what-if's", where it's easy to think "next time" when we have busy lives.

[Marmelad]

In my opinion many men who come to Thailand are not looking for intelligent, emancipated, mature western woman, who can hold a conversation and be financially independent, they are looking for the exact opposite, since the previously mentioned type of women they have back at home and that's who they run from. Therefore, for the OP it will be difficult to find a right man here. To her advantage she is Asian, so that opens the door a little bit, as some percentage of men here like Asian women. For the non-Asian western women it makes it almost impossible to find a man here (and not always you would want to go out with the type of men that come here anyway..). However, I would suggest to try to go to some islands for vacation (Krabi, Samui for example), as these are usually the places where westerners who are not sexpats or sex tourists would go to. But the problem there is that these are mostly young people, who want to party and they often come with their girlfriends and wives..... So if you ask me if Thailand is good for single western woman, the answer is -NO.

[jtp]

Rats! Sure wish I was 50 again!

I always liked middle aged women ..

I liked them when I was 25 and I still like middle aged women .. especially those who can engage in a complex and intelligent conversation.

There is more crutch than mystique involved when western men engage Asian women .. in my ever humble opinion.

If you had said"There is more crutch involved in OLD men engaging YOUNG Thai women",then i may have been entitled to agree,however i happen to find Asian women very attractive,that is why i made the extra effort to marry one.I could have easily married a lady from my home country,but my tastes are what they are!

[Birdman]

In my opinion many men who come to Thailand are not looking for intelligent, emancipated, mature western woman, who can hold a conversation and be financially independent, they are looking for the exact opposite, since the previously mentioned type of women they have back at home and that's who they run from. Therefore, for the OP it will be difficult to find a right man here. To her advantage she is Asian, so that opens the door a little bit, as some percentage of men here like Asian women. For the non-Asian western women it makes it almost impossible to find a man here (and not always you would want to go out with the type of men that come here anyway..). However, I would suggest to try to go to some islands for vacation (Krabi, Samui for example), as these are usually the places where westerners who are not sexpats or sex tourists would go to. But the problem there is that these are mostly young people, who want to party and they often come with their girlfriends and wives..... So if you ask me if Thailand is good for single western woman, the answer is -NO.

Samui and Krabi are places with many, many package tourists and that scenery and married Western expats living here for years. Just check out the corresponding forums. Best place would be a city like Bangkok or Chiang Mai for the op.

[ttthailand]

OP, most single men in their 40's or 50's have already been married and have went through all the relationship issues with women their own ages. They come to Thailand looking to have some fun and relax or just make a change from their old way of life. Here they can have many relationships with few strings attached. This sometimes becomes old and the need for better conversation, hanging out with someone with more in common is looked for. However, the new, young and exciting girls still get their attention after time and the need to return will pull them back.

Basically what I am trying to say is that men come to Thailand for fun not the same type of relationship they had in their home country. If they are to enter into a relationship here they want someone who they could never get in their own country. Why put up with the crap that Thailand throws at you and not have that extra spice in your life. Here a poor man can have his toys.

[venturalaw]

OP, most single men in their 40's or 50's have already been married and have went through all the relationship issues with women their own ages. They come to Thailand looking to have some fun and relax or just make a change from their old way of life. Here they can have many relationships with few strings attached. This sometimes becomes old and the need for better conversation, hanging out with someone with more in common is looked for. However, the new, young and exciting girls still get their attention after time and the need to return will pull them back.

Basically what I am trying to say is that men come to Thailand for fun not the same type of relationship they had in their home country. If they are to enter into a relationship here they want someone who they could never get in their own country. Why put up with the crap that Thailand throws at you and not have that extra spice in your life. Here a poor man can have his toys.

And on a rare occasion we can even find a young Thai lady that has western ideals - the family unit (husband/wife/child) come first, saving money for the family unit, no hangups about traditional western roles. It's rare, but out there. Additionally, there are women similar to the OP - a westerner who has Asian heritage who is seeking a serious relationship. One thing that she may find more common here in Thailand regarding the male population - the men are happier, and the men, same as the women, are generally more outgoing; they took a chance moving away from their country, family, traditions. More of a think-outside-of-the-box population.

[JayBee]

Have you tried service like BKKMatching.com?

[epistememe]

I think the situation in Thailand is best explained by understanding a basic fact. The OP comes from the USA and is accustomed to the female/male dynamic there. I would characterize it as being one of the most advanced countries in terms of equality between the sexes and status and respect afforded to women. Most western women will find the more traditional male dominated societies of Asia off putting. A western male on the other hand, will usually feel something special and attractive about the way he is treated by the women in most Asian countries. After being here awhile and getting accustomed to the treatment a male receives from Asian females, one views their past relationships with western females with a whole new perspective. Farang males have the upper-hand in courting and relationships in Thailand and I would say American females have the upper-hand in courting and relationships in the USA. A western male, typically for the first time in their life, sees the other side of the coin, i.e. that they have been in a similar position that Thai females find themselves in Thailand. Thai females and Farang males both have gotten a bit of a raw deal in their home countries. The Thai females find Farang males desirable, for a variety of reasons; likewise the Farang males find the Thai females desirable, for a variety of reasons.

A Farang female will therefore not be accustomed to the change in the female/male dynamic and feel something is wrong or out of whack. Something has changed; their position has changed in the dynamic, they are now no longer in the driver's seat. For some, this can be disorienting and difficult to accept.

So to help answer your question, please understand that you are in a very different position in Thailand than you are back in the West. You will need to either accept that fact and make plans to deal with it or move back to the USA and resume your status as an alpha female in her 40's. If you choose to stay, then you will have to do a major re-think on relationships and how you approach them. This isn't Kansas anymore Toto. Some have suggested that you might consider heading back home, that should be a serious consideration. On the other hand, if you are the inquisitive and adventurous type, there is no better playground to experiment with different roles/attitudes, relationships and types of people than Thailand.

[toptuan]

OK, my two cents:

Your OP invites answers that contain stereotyping, and it cannot be avoided. In my opinion, and in all sincerity, the problem is being American and/or western in culture.

If you're looking for Thai men, most Thais stereotype western women as aggressive, stiff-necked, and delighting to compete and win over men. Most of this stereotype comes from western movies which are ingested in great quantities in this country. Picture "Charlie's Angels." Believe me, this stereotype is very alive and strong in the Thai mentality.

If you're looking for a western man, most of them have come here to find a wife or partner who acts and enjoys the role of Mrs. Cleaver in the 1950's "Leave it To Beaver" TV shows. Domestic, obedient, quiet, and always adoring their "superior" husbands with "Nancy Reagan eyes."

I know this post will offend some expat members here, but if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. You're probably the exception.

[chiangmaibruce]

I thought this was a quite well-written and useful post. I would certainly agree with this statement: "After being here awhile and getting accustomed to the treatment a male receives from Asian females, one views their past relationships with western females with a whole new perspective".

At the same time however the post does demonstrate a somewhat glaring inconsistency:

... I would characterize it [the USA] as being one of the most advanced countries in terms of equality between the sexes and status and respect afforded to women. <snip> I would say American females have the upper-hand in courting and relationships in the USA. <snip> A Farang female [in Thailand] ... now no longer in the driver's seat.

So, on what basis do you use the term "most advanced ... in terms of equality"? I would have thought real equality - where no gender had the "upper hand" - would be the key indicator of that. Just a thought.

[adam1]

Hey Expat Lady,

If you say you are quite able to earn your own money, can you teach me how? I'm not lazy or unambitious, I just didn't care too much about making money until very recently.

Then we'd have something in common. I'm serious , PM me! I'm a 38 yrs old male, and no mug, and I don't look like one either......

Btw, people have been referring to you as being 40 yrs old, but your first post states "forties" - there's a big difference between 40 and 49. Respectfully, care to clarify?

and btw anyone, what does OP mean? Opening Post? Original Post? easy when u know...........

[epistememe]

So, on what basis do you use the term "most advanced ... in terms of equality"? I would have thought real equality - where no gender had the "upper hand" - would be the key indicator of that. Just a thought.

Equality of opportunity does not imply equality of results i.e. entrance to University in the USA is usually based on College entrance exam results, grade point average and class standing. There is no built-in bias towards one sex of the other. Yet, we are over 60% females and only 40% males attending college in the USA.

So in the case of female/male social dynamics in the USA, I argue that there is relatively level playing field, it is just that the females are "winning" and have the upper-hand. I might be overly discounting the continued historical legacy but I think a typical 20 yo male or female in the US feels equal to the person of the opposite sex, with the exception of the more religious/traditional areas of the country.

[crocodilexp]

Just the shoe is on the other foot syndrome, not your fault - but this is the way of the world in Thailand. You are at disadvantage two fold from the very start - being western and Asian. At least a western woman in Bangkok has an edge of being different and can use that to her advantage. I'd suggest hanging out in establishments where westerners tend to congregate - join social clubs ect. The thing is you need to sell yourself to the lads here and show that you are special. I know its probably something you are not use to, but if you want to snag a lad then you need to work hard for it.

This is a thoughtful post, don't discard it because it sounds sexist at the first reading. It all comes down to market forces and motivations.

Guys want 3 things from a girlfriend: sex/intimacy, interesting/engaging company and loyalty/support. Your value may well be high on the second two counts, but they usually only come to play later later in a relationship. The question was about getting a date. Sex accounts for bulk of our initial interest. In Thailand, it's obviously easy for any guy to get this with minimal hassle, and that's why the market is not in your favor.

As a Chinese 40 y.o. you're still very much on the game, but in eyes of most guys you seem way too hard to get (even if you think you're approachable). Blaming the guys won't get you far (much as blaming the market won't get any prices down). What would work is lowering the perceived cost-- spend more time in the right places and approach guys yourself.

There are hundreds of guys in Bangkok that could be right for you, don't get discouraged. For your target group (educated, successful expats), you're probably more interesting to hang out with than 95% of the Thai women they have access to. However, the perceived initial cost is high (in terms of time and hassle), and you have to work on lowering it.

[Morgantrish]

Get a relocation. Go far away. Go to Europe. Go to South America. Even Indonesia or Viet Nam. Anywhere but here. Go now, while you still have the self-esteem to write the way you wrote about yourself.

This place will suck it right out of you.

[featography]

The OP's situation is a dilemma. I am sure there are many, many men here in Thailand who would welcome the opportunity to know her and would be attracted to her, but where is the mechanism for them to meet?

Thank you very much, Bonobo. You have eloquently articulated the question for me, and it does seem like there are no answers forthcoming.

"Creating such a fuss" has certainly given my daily routine some twists and turns. Yes, I did get a number of good advice from the forum, and more specific ones from private messages sent by very decent men which makes me want to let the foreign women reading this thread know that all is not lost for the Western and Western-educated women in BKK. Looking for a needle in the haystack is what it is going to be like, but the decent men are out there. It is just a matter of finding the opportunity to meet them. And ironically, these decent men find themselves in the same predicament.

And interestingly enough, I have received close to a dozen (the last time I counted) invitations for a chat over coffee from Caucasian men in their late fifties to early sixties, and all of them are in relationships with Thai women much younger than them. They all assure me that all they want is to talk.

I have accepted two invitations, and with permission, I have written about one of them. And now, I have permission to write about the second one.

The gentleman is a European in his early sixties with a thriving business in BKK. He is married to a Thai woman half his age, and they have two young boys who attend an international school. He claims to have married a middle class woman whose father is younger than him, and in the hour we spent, I learned that he gave her parents 50,000 baht a month, and she received a monthly allowance of 150,000 baht. I do believe the gentleman has the means for I am the corporate type, and I can tell expensive suits, shoes and watches. Oh, ties and belts as well. I was also told several times that he wished he had married a financially sensible and independent woman like me.

The gentlemen was looking for an honest conversation, and I pretty much obliged informing him that women like me, or at least me, will never marry a man like him for he has nothing to offer but money, and I am very much capable of making my own money. He may have been a dashing man in the past, but he has let himself go in a manner that expensive suits cannot hide. Men and women in their forties, fifties and sixties can never compete with those in their twenties and thirties, but they can remain attractive. It just takes a lot of hard work and discipline.

I am convinced I have not let myself go. I will never compete with a 25-year old woman of any race. She will always win, but I would like to believe I have the confidence and the style that only comes with age, and hard work, discipline and determination.

The European gentleman's wife cannot have enough designer shoes and bag, but youth for money is a fair exchange in my mind. Having said that though, should a handsome eligible bachelor in his twenties (of any race and nationality) profess eternal love for me, you can bet that I would start running as fast as I can towards the opposite direction.

I do believe I have learned enough from the men who have settled for less, and I use the phrase for lack of a better phrase. I have a passion for what I am now, and refuse to be doused by talks of better days long gone, or regrets.

Am I alone? Yes. Am I lonely? Yes, but not all the time. Not even most of the time. And certainly not enough to be any man's ATM.

And if I had to name one lesson learned from the two meetings, it is that one can be extremely lonely in a relationship.

And BTW, I do pour drinks for men. I also open my own doors. And I always pay for my share of the bill.

First thing that came to mind and has replayed over and over again is, Where were you when I was looking all over the Pacific Northwest, USA, for you, before coming to Thailand??

Now in Thailand, I am married to an educated Thai lady. You have received ample advice from western men in this forum. Allow me to offer my Thai wife's suggestion. She is 40, never married before me, we have been together for 3 yrs. She suggests to you, aim higher in education with Thai men; doctors, dentists, for examples, white collar professional thai men because they are a little more westernized, speak some degree of university english. Thats if youre going to date Thai men. For Farang, She suggests when seeking for any serious friendships, relationships, etc aim equal or higher than yourself in education, close to your age, stay out of the meat markets (American phrase), be yourself but be a little ascertive and a lot of polite. She knows how you feel, and says patience will reward.

[GungaDin]

anyone, what does OP mean? Opening Post? Original Post? easy when u know...........

Original Post or Poster.

[Hawkup2000]

Dating in Bangkok is like a big sale; the second hand stuff is cheap, crap is for free but it's not worth the hassle. Bangkok is not the best dating city if you got high expectations. It's really hard to find the perfect match here. "The long Ideal-partner-list" (funny, witty, good looking, responsible, honest etc) that you might have in US or Europe just doesn't work here.

[JSixpack]

So in the case of female/male social dynamics in the USA, I argue that there is relatively level playing field, it is just that the females are "winning" and have the upper-hand.

Hmmm. I'm a big feminist myself and applaud the advances in rights for women in the USA. They should go further: for example, why can't women all go topless on the beaches or anywhere else that a man can normally go topless?

On the other hand, I see most of my old male buddies, married to typical 'Mercan women, doing ALL the maintenance and yard work around the house AND at least 50% of the housework--if not more--while also meeting the lion's share of the household finances and listening to countless expressions of opinion. If they have children, the men do quite a lot of support there, too, and change just as many diapers. I'd say the women are certainly dominant in those relationships.

That said, my buds do claim they are happily married. They wouldn't lie to me. So there you are.

[losworld]

So in the case of female/male social dynamics in the USA, I argue that there is relatively level playing field, it is just that the females are "winning" and have the upper-hand.

Hmmm. I'm a big feminist myself and applaud the advances in rights for women in the USA. They should go further: for example, why can't women all go topless on the beaches or anywhere else that a man can normally go topless?

On the other hand, I see most of my old male buddies, married to typical 'Mercan women, doing ALL the maintenance and yard work around the house AND at least 50% of the housework--if not more--while also meeting the lion's share of the household finances and listening to countless expressions of opinion. If they have children, the men do quite a lot of support there, too, and change just as many diapers. I'd say the women are certainly dominant in those relationships.

That said, my buds do claim they are happily married. They wouldn't lie to me. So there you are.

You do make some good points but I wouldn't assume so many are happy as much as they may be "trapped". I have a friend who does offshore work and many of his coworkers went to Thailand and were soon divorced to their western wives. Now many of these relationships ended badly but they did leave their previous marriage so something was missing.

Is that you in the pic?

Edited August 9, 2009 by losworld

[Hawkup2000]

Hmmm. I'm a big feminist myself and applaud the advances in rights for women in the USA. They should go further: for example, why can't women all go topless on the beaches or anywhere else that a man can normally go topless?

On the other hand, I see most of my old male buddies, married to typical 'Mercan women, doing ALL the maintenance and yard work around the house AND at least 50% of the housework--if not more--while also meeting the lion's share of the household finances and listening to countless expressions of opinion. If they have children, the men do quite a lot of support there, too, and change just as many diapers. I'd say the women are certainly dominant in those relationships.

That said, my buds do claim they are happily married. They wouldn't lie to me. So there you are.

I rather have that than the life with an "up to you" wife who never have opinions about anything interesting and never heard of the second world war, Elvis and are unable to point out 20 countries on the world map.

[eurozhongguo]

Most farang who go to Thailand and other East Asian countries looking for women because they DO NOT want a bossy, opinionated, individualistic, confident American-style woman, but want the absolute opposite, especially submissive, cute, easy-going, respectful girls. On the other hand, most Thai and other Asian men are quite scared of overpowering Western women. As a Chinese American, you look Asian, but behave like an American.Most farang and Thais won't give you a moment of their time. After all, BKK is full of lovely Thai girls who are NOT looking for an argument and are NOT confrontational. Get my message?

[IanForbes]

Most farang who go to Thailand and other East Asian countries looking for women because they DO NOT want a bossy, opinionated, individualistic, confident American-style woman, but want the absolute opposite, especially submissive, cute, easy-going, respectful girls. On the other hand, most Thai and other Asian men are quite scared of overpowering Western women. As a Chinese American, you look Asian, but behave like an American.Most farang and Thais won't give you a moment of their time. After all, BKK is full of lovely Thai girls who are NOT looking for an argument and are NOT confrontational. Get my message?

That's a bit harsh. Did you actually read all her comments on this topic? She didn't come across as confrontational at all. There are a few mods that are more confrontational than expatlady, and a lot of men here who are also. She was given some good advice and followed up on it. She came to a few valuable conclusions that might solve her problem, or at least give her a different perspective.

[venturalaw]

So in the case of female/male social dynamics in the USA, I argue that there is relatively level playing field, it is just that the females are "winning" and have the upper-hand.

Hmmm. I'm a big feminist myself and applaud the advances in rights for women in the USA. They should go further: for example, why can't women all go topless on the beaches or anywhere else that a man can normally go topless?

On the other hand, I see most of my old male buddies, married to typical 'Mercan women, doing ALL the maintenance and yard work around the house AND at least 50% of the housework--if not more--while also meeting the lion's share of the household finances and listening to countless expressions of opinion. If they have children, the men do quite a lot of support there, too, and change just as many diapers. I'd say the women are certainly dominant in those relationships.

That said, my buds do claim they are happily married. They wouldn't lie to me. So there you are.

Thanks for the reminder of why I am so happy here and will never go back to the USA. IMO, if these men are telling you that they are happy, they are either completely emasculated and have accepted it as the norm, or they fear you. Your view of this translating into "advances in rights for women", well, I guess it translates to 'different strokes . . . .'

Edited August 9, 2009 by venturalaw

[Boo]

IMO, if these men are telling you that they are happy, they are either completely emasculated and have accepted it as the norm, or they fear you.

Or they could actually be happy. Just cause you are unable to cope with a women who has an opinion doesn't mean other men can't & there is nothing emasculating about being with a women who has her own views & is able to express them

[Boo]

Most farang who go to Thailand and other East Asian countries looking for women because they DO NOT want a bossy, opinionated, individualistic, confident American-style woman, but want the absolute opposite, especially submissive, cute, easy-going, respectful girls. On the other hand, most Thai and other Asian men are quite scared of overpowering Western women. As a Chinese American, you look Asian, but behave like an American.Most farang and Thais won't give you a moment of their time. After all, BKK is full of lovely Thai girls who are NOT looking for an argument and are NOT confrontational. Get my message?

Good luck, seems you will need it if you think all thai women are especially submissive & easy going. You might want to read through a few threads where thai gf/wives have become obsessively jealous, threatened & in some cases acted out violence etc towards their farang bf's/husbands. Not all thai women are like it of course, only an idiot would suggest they were, as would someone be who suggested all western women were bossy, opinionated, overpowering etc.

Get my message?

[venturalaw]

IMO, if these men are telling you that they are happy, they are either completely emasculated and have accepted it as the norm, or they fear you.

Or they could actually be happy. Just cause you are unable to cope with a women who has an opinion doesn't mean other men can't & there is nothing emasculating about being with a women who has her own views & is able to express them

Where did it state that the women had an opinion? No where. The post related to men being enslaved (my word for the description of the work that has been undertaken by the poster's male friends that are presumably additionally providing financial support for the family). I rely upon the oppinons of women in many circumstances, so your miss-characterization is way way off base.

[expatlady]

Most farang who go to Thailand and other East Asian countries looking for women because they DO NOT want a bossy, opinionated, individualistic, confident American-style woman, but want the absolute opposite, especially submissive, cute, easy-going, respectful girls. On the other hand, most Thai and other Asian men are quite scared of overpowering Western women. As a Chinese American, you look Asian, but behave like an American.Most farang and Thais won't give you a moment of their time. After all, BKK is full of lovely Thai girls who are NOT looking for an argument and are NOT confrontational. Get my message?

That's a bit harsh. Did you actually read all her comments on this topic? She didn't come across as confrontational at all. There are a few mods that are more confrontational than expatlady, and a lot of men here who are also. She was given some good advice and followed up on it. She came to a few valuable conclusions that might solve her problem, or at least give her a different perspective.

Many thanks, IanForbes, but everyone is entitled not only to their own opinions, but to their own biases and prejudices as well.

[MrHammer]

This is an interesting thread.. Something that stands out in my opinion, that someone may be missing is that maybe, just maybe, happiness isn't all about 'equality' in a relationship. If western style relationships were so good why do so many of them end in divorces?

[venturalaw]

Most farang who go to Thailand and other East Asian countries looking for women because they DO NOT want a bossy, opinionated, individualistic, confident American-style woman, but want the absolute opposite, especially submissive, cute, easy-going, respectful girls. On the other hand, most Thai and other Asian men are quite scared of overpowering Western women. As a Chinese American, you look Asian, but behave like an American.Most farang and Thais won't give you a moment of their time. After all, BKK is full of lovely Thai girls who are NOT looking for an argument and are NOT confrontational. Get my message?

Good luck, seems you will need it if you think all thai women are especially submissive & easy going. You might want to read through a few threads where thai gf/wives have become obsessively jealous, threatened & in some cases acted out violence etc towards their farang bf's/husbands. Not all thai women are like it of course, only an idiot would suggest they were, as would someone be who suggested all western women were bossy, opinionated, overpowering etc.

Get my message?

True, some Thai women have become westernized and that's a pity. But many, if not most, are a delight and, what most feminists find completely alarming, more woman than the feminists ever imagined possible. It's a tremendous relief to find a relationship in which one strives to do everything possible to bring pleasure to their mate because their mate feels and does the same for him. There are those poor souls that find this demeaning and evidence of the Thai woman being empty (absent opinions or thoughts of their own). Nothing could be further from the truth.

Edited August 9, 2009 by venturalaw