Help Me Understand Thai Toilets.

[chrgrims]

Hi,

We have 2 tanks that the pipes from the toilets go to. My wife says they are sealed, just like a normal septic tank in the west. But then she tells that many people dont have sealed tanks, and that the waste goes directly into the earth. the tanks dont have a bottom, if you get my meaning. how many thai toilets are like this? what are the consequenses?

Edited August 11, 2009 by chrgrims

[Koo82]

the waste goes directly into the earth

The house we have been living in for 30 years has this bottomless tanks. They are big and will never can be full. The waste will become some kind of "soil". Waste goes into the earth.

I think currently people prefer the plastic tank. When it is full, they'll hire someone to bring truck in to suck.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Koo82

[chrgrims]

ok, interesting. My concern is with pollution of course. and the firmness of the soil. We are going to build a small house here. and if the tanks are close to the building i would be nervous about the soil becoming more unstable.

[toptuan]

Bottomless septic tanks are quite common in the first world, particularly in any non-urban setting. The earth is a natural filter which purifies your septic wastes as it seeps through. The key is not to locate the septic too close to your well from which you pump drinking water. Duh. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't worry about it.

[thaihome]

Note, maybe the thread title should read Thai Home Sewer Systems. I thought we were going to be giving directions on how to use a squat toilet.

TH

[Samuian]

Bottomless septic tanks are quite common in the first world, particularly in any non-urban setting. The earth is a natural filter which purifies your septic wastes as it seeps through. The key is not to locate the septic too close to your well from which you pump drinking water. Duh. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't worry about it.

if no paper and no strong chemicals (chlorine, bleech) are put into the system,

natural causes like enzymes will take care of the more solid wastes, liquid will

be filtered by the soil!

in many years never had a problem.

Paper and sanitary napkins and the like,

due through it qualities are likely to clog

the natural drainage passage for liquids, thus

the tank can be full in relatively short time and

needs clearing.

Sewerage is no problem unless it is untreated and

let raw into waterways and onto fields and gardens... to "fertilize"...

and of course should be furthest away from any well..

[chrgrims]

Note, maybe the thread title should read Thai Home Sewer Systems. I thought we were going to be giving directions on how to use a squat toilet.

TH

In a subforum about houses and real estate? not sure about that. but if many have this problem, i can change it.

[chrgrims]

Bottomless septic tanks are quite common in the first world, particularly in any non-urban setting. The earth is a natural filter which purifies your septic wastes as it seeps through. The key is not to locate the septic too close to your well from which you pump drinking water. Duh. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't worry about it.

if no paper and no strong chemicals (chlorine, bleech) are put into the system,

natural causes like enzymes will take care of the more solid wastes, liquid will

be filtered by the soil!

in many years never had a problem.

Paper and sanitary napkins and the like,

due through it qualities are likely to clog

the natural drainage passage for liquids, thus

the tank can be full in relatively short time and

needs clearing.

Sewerage is no problem unless it is untreated and

let raw into waterways and onto fields and gardens... to "fertilize"...

and of course should be furthest away from any well..

very useful info, thanks.

[Nilrem]

Hi,

We have 2 tanks that the pipes from the toilets go to. My wife says they are sealed, just like a normal septic tank in the west. But then she tells that many people dont have sealed tanks, and that the waste goes directly into the earth. the tanks dont have a bottom, if you get my meaning. how many thai toilets are like this? what are the consequenses?

As i understand it, one tank is sealed which takes the solids and there is a pipe near the top leading from it to the other tank which is bottomless. When the liquid reaches the outlet near the top of the first tank it flows into the second, where it seaps into the ground. The first tank is occasionally emptied by a sewage truck and the second tank never has the problem of being clogged by toilet debris.

[neverdie]

Whilst slightly off topic, I thought I would tell you my humerous little story about my septic system becoming full the other day & I was like OMG what are we going to do?

The GF's father attended to the systems immediate need to have the sewerage re-enter the house via the toilet (as not much <deleted> needs to flow to overrun a squat toilet).

The very next morning a little man came walking along the soi yelling out in thai, how he would like to suck septic systems clean. The father then entered into serious negotiations to have our system emptied, securing a price of 600 baht. The sucked the system clean, with the father supervising & hosing the septic down & have that sludge removed as well .

Absolutely amazing stuff, I would of paid 6,000 baht to have that baby cleared and there was no way I would of been supervising the work. Its a serious business this crap removal service & there must have been at least 8 thai guys riding ontop of the poo truck as it left the soi. <deleted>?

[TongueThaied]

Hi,

We have 2 tanks that the pipes from the toilets go to. My wife says they are sealed, just like a normal septic tank in the west. But then she tells that many people dont have sealed tanks, and that the waste goes directly into the earth. the tanks dont have a bottom, if you get my meaning. how many thai toilets are like this? what are the consequenses?

There are no consequences -- as long as it is located 20 or more meters from any well. It is exactly the same as a septic system in the States, except instead of a drain field, the affluent drains directly into the soil under the tank. If the soil under the tank is not porous -- say it is a thick layer of clay -- then the tank will fill up and not work as contemplated. Many people in the West mistakenly believe they have septic tanks that are pumped when full. Not true. As the sewerage flows from the house to tank, the tank is quickly filled. The solids drop to the bottom and break down and the liquid drains off the top of the tank to a drain field. In the States, the drain field is necessary because most building codes stupidly require that ALL waste water (bath, hand washing, laundry, dishwashing, vegetable washing, toilet, etc.) go into the septic system. In Thailand the gray water (non-toilet water) normally spills out onto the ground to water trees or something. Only the black water (water from toilets) goes into the tank.

If you surround and bury your Thai self-draining septic tank with charcoal, you will eliminate the odor that sometimes eminates from the system. I would also locate the tank further from the house than do most Thais and pipe the sewerage to the tank. Just remember, sh!t flows down hill.

[Artisi]

Hi,

We have 2 tanks that the pipes from the toilets go to. My wife says they are sealed, just like a normal septic tank in the west. But then she tells that many people dont have sealed tanks, and that the waste goes directly into the earth. the tanks dont have a bottom, if you get my meaning. how many thai toilets are like this? what are the consequenses?

There are no consequences -- as long as it is located 20 or more meters from any well. It is exactly the same as a septic system in the States, except instead of a drain field, the affluent drains directly into the soil under the tank. If the soil under the tank is not porous -- say it is a thick layer of clay -- then the tank will fill up and not work as contemplated. Many people in the West mistakenly believe they have septic tanks that are pumped when full. Not true. As the sewerage flows from the house to tank, the tank is quickly filled. The solids drop to the bottom and break down and the liquid drains off the top of the tank to a drain field. In the States, the drain field is necessary because most building codes stupidly require that ALL waste water (bath, hand washing, laundry, dishwashing, vegetable washing, toilet, etc.) go into the septic system. In Thailand the gray water (non-toilet water) normally spills out onto the ground to water trees or something. Only the black water (water from toilets) goes into the tank.

If you surround and bury your Thai self-draining septic tank with charcoal, you will eliminate the odor that sometimes eminates from the system. I would also locate the tank further from the house than do most Thais and pipe the sewerage to the tank. Just remember, sh!t flows down hill.

Just a small point re draining the liquid from the first tank (primary) into the secondary tank or drain field, the overflow from the primary tank needs to be below the upper level of the first tank otherwise you will carry the scum which is the fats and soap etc that float on the top of the liquid in the primary tank into the secondary tank or the drain field, this should be retained in the primary tank and pumped out occassionly once the sludge load and scum load become a problem.

PS, some people try unsuccessfully to push sh!t up-hill with a stick.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Artisi

[pkrv]

Hi,

We have 2 tanks that the pipes from the toilets go to. My wife says they are sealed, just like a normal septic tank in the west. But then she tells that many people dont have sealed tanks, and that the waste goes directly into the earth. the tanks dont have a bottom, if you get my meaning. how many thai toilets are like this? what are the consequenses?

There are no consequences -- as long as it is located 20 or more meters from any well. It is exactly the same as a septic system in the States, except instead of a drain field, the affluent drains directly into the soil under the tank. If the soil under the tank is not porous -- say it is a thick layer of clay -- then the tank will fill up and not work as contemplated. Many people in the West mistakenly believe they have septic tanks that are pumped when full. Not true. As the sewerage flows from the house to tank, the tank is quickly filled. The solids drop to the bottom and break down and the liquid drains off the top of the tank to a drain field. In the States, the drain field is necessary because most building codes stupidly require that ALL waste water (bath, hand washing, laundry, dishwashing, vegetable washing, toilet, etc.) go into the septic system. In Thailand the gray water (non-toilet water) normally spills out onto the ground to water trees or something. Only the black water (water from toilets) goes into the tank.

If you surround and bury your Thai self-draining septic tank with charcoal, you will eliminate the odor that sometimes eminates from the system. I would also locate the tank further from the house than do most Thais and pipe the sewerage to the tank. Just remember, sh!t flows down hill.

Just a small point re draining the liquid from the first tank (primary) into the secondary tank or drain field, the overflow from the primary tank needs to be below the upper level of the first tank otherwise you will carry the scum which is the fats and soap etc that float on the top of the liquid in the primary tank into the secondary tank or the drain field, this should be retained in the primary tank and pumped out occassionly once the sludge load and scum load become a problem.

PS, some people try unsuccessfully to push sh!t up-hill with a stick.

I remember seeing a documentary on a house built in a desert in the US. The guy said something like at the end of the documentary, I wish I had separated out gray water (baths, showers, dishwashing etc) from sewage.

Does this comment make sense in this context?

Note, maybe the thread title should read Thai Home Sewer Systems. I thought we were going to be giving directions on how to use a squat toilet.

TH

And so thaihome - Out of interest how do you use such a 'facility'

Edited August 12, 2009 by pkrv

[Artisi]

pkrv

Quote "I remember seeing a documentary on a house built in a desert in the US. The guy said something like at the end of the documentary, I wish I had separated out gray water (baths, showers, dishwashing etc) from sewage.

Does this comment make sense in this context? "

My thinking is to seperate out the washing machine, shower / bath to a seperate system- the daily load into a domestic is probably too high not giving enough retention time in the primary tank to digest the toilet waste plus the minute fluff from clothes washing which is carried over into the discharge can over time block the drainage sytem of a sewage system.

The thinking now-a-days on kitchen / diswaher is to put it thru' the primary tank with the toilet waste, modern detergents breakdown and combine with the grease / oils and become part of the scum which collects at the top of the primary tank. - no need for a grease trap.

[Crossy]

My thinking is to seperate out the washing machine, shower / bath to a seperate system- the daily load into a domestic is probably too high not giving enough retention time in the primary tank to digest the toilet waste plus the minute fluff from clothes washing which is carried over into the discharge can over time block the drainage sytem of a sewage system.

The thinking now-a-days on kitchen / diswaher is to put it thru' the primary tank with the toilet waste, modern detergents breakdown and combine with the grease / oils and become part of the scum which collects at the top of the primary tank. - no need for a grease trap.

I like this idea, limits the amount going through / filling up the primary tank

Moving to DIY

[wpcoe]

Artisi: Thanks for that graphic. I was having problems visualizing just how that system would work, and now it's perfectly clear.

[elkangorito]

My thinking is to seperate out the washing machine, shower / bath to a seperate system- the daily load into a domestic is probably too high not giving enough retention time in the primary tank to digest the toilet waste plus the minute fluff from clothes washing which is carried over into the discharge can over time block the drainage sytem of a sewage system.

The thinking now-a-days on kitchen / diswaher is to put it thru' the primary tank with the toilet waste, modern detergents breakdown and combine with the grease / oils and become part of the scum which collects at the top of the primary tank. - no need for a grease trap.

I like this idea, limits the amount going through / filling up the primary tank

Moving to DIY

The above is now standard practice in Australia for many homes.

Septic - to use or not?

In Thailand, the only enforced rules are cultural &/or moral. There are hardly any "technical" rules enforced. As such, any Joe Blow can decide to "plonk" a septic tank anywhere & at any old time without thinking about his actions.

On the contrary, one can't just summarily decide to install a septic system. A lot needs to be considered. This is why our "home" countries have strict requirements regarding the use & placement of anaerobic septic systems, which are designed to leach into the soil.

Aerobic systems are quite different.

I talked about this a while ago.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1926759

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1926874

The below link is about "Source Water Protection Practices Bulletin Managing Septic Systems to Prevent Contamination of Drinking Water".

http://nesc.wvu.edu/pdf/ww/septic/epa_sept..._protection.pdf

A quote from the above link.

Siting.

Most jurisdictions have adopted, for septic systems, minimum horizontal setback distances from features such as buildings and drinking water wells and minimum vertical setback distances from impermeable soil layers and the water table. Septic systems should be located a safe distance from drinking water sources to avoid potential contamination. Areas with high water tables and shallow impermeable layers should be avoided because there is insufficient unsaturated soil thickness to ensure sufficient treatment. Soil permeability must be adequate to ensure proper treatment of septic system effluent. If permeability is too low, the drain field may not be able to handle wastewater flows, and surface ponding (thus contributing to the contamination of surface water through runoff) or plumbing back-ups may result. If permeability is too high, the effluent may reach ground water before it is adequately treated. As a result, alternative systems may be necessary in karst areas. Well-drained loamy soils are generally the most desirable for proper septic system operation. In making siting decisions, local health officials should also evaluate whether soils and receiving waters can absorb the combined effluent loadings from all of the septic systems in the area.

Some more information;

http://www.agwt.org/info/septicsystems.htm

http://cecalaveras.ucdavis.edu/realp.htm

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=1kK7pn...ion&f=false

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1.../eb1746-w6.html

[chrgrims]

great post elkan, thank you.

[Cuban]

Futher to the above, when getting it installed ask tell them to install a U bend, otherwise they are likely to use a simple straight run from the Hong Nam drain to the waste water tank with the resulting smell problems (experianced at a relative's new house). The pipe fittings are cheap so by thinking ahead you can put in some access points to deal with any blockages that occur 10 years in the future.

When sitting the stack of concrete rings that makes up the leak-away tank, consider that the suck-it-out people may need access when the sludge builds up in a few (many) years, so if the only way they can get to it is by running the pipe through your expensive dinning room - consider side access points.

Few of the simple concrete ring stacked tanks I've encountered have been sealed very well, in the one we have there is ventilation via a separate pipe, but the concete lid would benifit from another seal like dried clay/mud to avoid the occational waft.

I think the going rate from the local government run sucking truck is about 160 Baht?

[welo]

Hi guys,

I am really so glad to find this discussion here and would like to use the expertise on matters of <deleted> and such that is so overflowingly present in this topic to solve my own <deleted> problem.

I have rented a house with this dual tank system: primary tank collects the toilet waste, and overflows into the secondary tank. Bathtube and water basin are piped to the secondary tank. The basin was actually installed by a friend of mine and myself, and we installed a U-tap for smell prevention. Waste goes into the secondary tank.

Problem is this: the (western) toilet gives off bad smell after flushing. The primary tank has been emptied a couple of weeks ago, and the system was further treated with some kind of magic chemical or whatever to reduce odeur, but by now the problem (the smell after flushing) has come back.

Back when we moved in, the landlord instructed us to use a pump lowered into the secondary tank to regularly empty tit and pump the sewage into the surrounding garden. The secondary tank is not covered and fills up when raining.

I am thinking about installing a level-triggered automatic switch for the pump since just piping the water away is not easily possible. I have no idea how to fix the odeur problem, and not really understand by what it is caused exactly. Reading all the information provided in this thread I guess I should know what to do but, honestly, I would really appreciate some opinion/advice on that?

welo

[tingtongfarang]

I used often build similar systems in greece, As i understand if the waste water as in water from the sink with washing up liquid or water from the washing machine with detergents enters the system the enzymes or bacteria which acttualy eat or break the <deleted> down will be destroyed and its only a matter of time before its full, In europe its possible to buy these microbes to start the system working once it has a regular supply of <deleted>, In france they sell bottles of these special microbes which will even eat the toilet paper but even they will not survive detergents, As these microbes were not available in greece the greeks would throw in a dead chicken or any kind of road kill which had lay around for a couple of days just to start the cycle,

The house where i live in bkk has this 2 tank thai system and at one time the waste water from the kitchen and both bathrooms stopped flowing...on following the waste pipes i found it all runs into the lake behind the house and plants had grown up the pipe and blocked it, I,m not sure if the owner of the lake knows about the waste water running into his lake and also i have no idea about the other houses on the moobarn but its anyway a rented house.

[welo]

As i understand if the waste water as in water from the sink with washing up liquid or water from the washing machine with detergents enters the system the enzymes or bacteria which acttualy eat or break the <deleted> down will be destroyed

This makes sense but kind of contradicts what Artisi said about the thinking nowadays.

The thinking now-a-days on kitchen / diswaher is to put it thru' the primary tank with the toilet waste, modern detergents breakdown and combine with the grease / oils and become part of the scum which collects at the top of the primary tank. - no need for a grease trap.

I guess the detergents sold in Thailand are not the ecological sort of but contain rather strong chemicals, maybe even some that are already forbidden in some western countries. That is of course just speculation based on my experience with lack of ecological thinking in Thailand and the 'the-more-the-better' attitude.

welo

[tingtongfarang]

The systems in greece differ only in as much as there is no actual tank mainly because everywhere is rock and often these holes have to be made with dynamite which also cracks the rocks allowing liquid stuff to go through, Of course these holes are much smaller than the ones here in thailand but the downfall of putting detergents in could be seen much sooner...some systems had worked perfect for more than 200 years until people started buying chemicals ...detergents and washing machines,

Not only do these detergents kill the microbes but also turn into a kind of fat which stops any liquid drainage into the ground....alternative systems had to be well thought out.

[welo]

Not only do these detergents kill the microbes but also turn into a kind of fat which stops any liquid drainage into the ground....alternative systems had to be well thought out.

Would that apply to the typical toilet/bathroom cleaner ('stain remover') as well?

welo

[tingtongfarang]

Would that apply to the typical toilet/bathroom cleaner ('stain remover') as well?

Yes we even tried a range of german detergents (frosch) which were supposedly ecological but even they killed the microbes and turned into fat including toilet cleaners or blue coloured tabs which you hang in the flush system,

Imagine the faces of some of these house owners when sitting on the marble terrace sipping martinis watching the sun go down and this brown brew came seathing up from the septic tank and over the floor....it happened often, Many of the houses in small villages have almost no garden and roads too small to bring a pump truck in to suck it empty even if the service was available, As these septic systems were always concreted over it was always the obvious place to build the terrace,

The only way to keep it working is to have the waste water going elsewhere and there are certain kinds of plants which will absorb the water and detergents, The waste water and toilet water has to be kept completely apart,

keeping the toilet itself clean is possible without toilet/bathroom cleaner...its just harder work.

[welo]

Thanks for all the info, Tingtongfarang!

I will stop using detergents in the toilet or at least keep the use to an absolute minimum. The water in our area contains a lot of lime though, will be a hard job to keep the toilet nice over the years

I also wonder whether the water from the secondary tank overflows to the primary tank, also causing the 'system' to 'collapse', e.g. when it is raining and the primary tank is filled to the top. I guess the overflow pipe should be constructed so it will not flow back. I guess there is no easy way to find out other than opening the primary tank. Can I just lift the cover, or is the primary tank cover 'sealed' in a more sophisticated way.

welo

[tingtongfarang]

Your welcome welo

Dont know if yours is constructed the same as mine here in bkk but mine is under the car port and both primary and secondary tanks have openings, Its a plastic cover fixed with 2 screws and a rubber seal,

Depending how strong your stomach is if you come across a road kill...rather a smelly rotting one ...take it with you and drop it in the primary tank, It sounds strange i know but helps to pep the system up and i cant imagine anyone complaining about you packing a dead chicken or soi dog under your arm.

[reallyok]

Bottomless septic tanks are quite common in the first world, particularly in any non-urban setting. The earth is a natural filter which purifies your septic wastes as it seeps through. The key is not to locate the septic too close to your well from which you pump drinking water. Duh. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't worry about it.

if no paper and no strong chemicals (chlorine, bleech) are put into the system,

natural causes like enzymes will take care of the more solid wastes, liquid will

be filtered by the soil!

in many years never had a problem.

Paper and sanitary napkins and the like,

due through it qualities are likely to clog

the natural drainage passage for liquids, thus

the tank can be full in relatively short time and

needs clearing.

Sewerage is no problem unless it is untreated and

let raw into waterways and onto fields and gardens... to "fertilize"...

and of course should be furthest away from any well..

very useful info, thanks.

Thats just a little misleading!

Here in Australia, i have got a septic toilet system which goes through 4 stages.

First ...Toilet to holding tank with no sanitary towels or chemicals, but the amount of toilet paper does no harm as it dissolves.

The solids just settle and break down by bacteria ( hence the NO chemicals)

The water then pumps into a large underground gravel soakage pit and from there into another holding tank which has a dissolvable chlorine tablet in it.

The grey water, which is by now odourless and clear, is then pumped through sprinklers on to the garden and lawns...................simple is'nt it.

The original solids holding tank can be pumped out every 3 to 4 years if necessary and the whole system is only 3 metres from the house ..........no odours whatsoever.

[reallyok]

Not only do these detergents kill the microbes but also turn into a kind of fat which stops any liquid drainage into the ground....alternative systems had to be well thought out.

Would that apply to the typical toilet/bathroom cleaner ('stain remover') as well?

welo

This is a good line of questioning WELO.

Yes one has to be careful with regards to chemicals and make sure that any detergents etc are BIODEGRADABLE this will be clearly marked on the product. Then there are no problems.

[Boksida]

Whilst slightly off topic, I thought I would tell you my humerous little story about my septic system becoming full the other day & I was like OMG what are we going to do?

The GF's father attended to the systems immediate need to have the sewerage re-enter the house via the toilet (as not much <deleted> needs to flow to overrun a squat toilet).

The very next morning a little man came walking along the soi yelling out in thai, how he would like to suck septic systems clean. The father then entered into serious negotiations to have our system emptied, securing a price of 600 baht. The sucked the system clean, with the father supervising & hosing the septic down & have that sludge removed as well .

Absolutely amazing stuff, I would of paid 6,000 baht to have that baby cleared and there was no way I would of been supervising the work. Its a serious business this crap removal service & there must have been at least 8 thai guys riding ontop of the poo truck as it left the soi. <deleted>?

The most amazing thing about Thai septic cleaning vacuum trucks is that the driver is always called Terdsak.