Thaksin Petition Will Be Thrown Out: Pm

[Plus]

What's this FIDF thing doing in this thread?

Anyway, the court ruled 6-3 that Thaksin had authority over FIDF.

THe rest could be continued in appropriate threads where these arguments were raised ages ago.

[clausewitz]

The coup leaders after the coup made a new backdated law that absolved them from any illgeal actions in brining down the government. They then apponited a committe of their buddies to punish Thakin. How objective was that committe? Here is a bio of one the members:

From wikipedia

Banjerd Singkaneti (Thai: บรรเจิด สิงคะเนติ) is Assistant Professor of Law at Thammasat University and was a noted critic of Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Criticism of Thaksin Shinawatra

Banjerd was a leader of the People's Alliance for Democracy, a group active in 2006 in attempting to bring down the government of Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.[2] He famously criticized Thaksin as being worse than Adolf Hitler.

“ What makes Mr. Thaksin different from Adolf Hitler was that Hitler did not do things for his own benefit. Hitler killed Jews but he did several things for his country. He was more useful for the country than Mr Thaksin was. ”

The Embassy of Israel protested in a letter to the Bangkok Post, the English-language newspaper which had published Banjerd's statement.

After the coup

After the Thai military overthrew the government of Thaksin in a coup, the junta appointed Banjerd to the Asset Exemination Committee investigating corruption allegations against Thaksin and to the Constitution Drafting Committee drafting a new permanent constitution.

During the drafting process, he rejected western-style democracy in favor of traditional social customs. “I personally believe in social structure and administration through traditions and customs that we once had in small communities. It’s more real than western-style democracy because people rule by themselves.

[Plus]

This thread is about petition being thrown out if it reaches the government.

FIDF land, background of AEC members, or junta issued laws does not belong here and there's no connection whatsoever.

[jayboy]

This thread is about petition being thrown out if it reaches the government.

FIDF land, background of AEC members, or junta issued laws does not belong here and there's no connection whatsoever.

Well actually there is a common thread here, however much you protest.

[cdnvic]

Pro, anti, or don't give a toss. Regardless of how you feel, this endless game isn't doing the country any good. Thaksin needs to be given clemency in exchange for staying out of politics. The country doesn't need this ongoing circus.

[Mario2008]

1 post referring to a non existend politician deleted. Please refer to people by their proper name.

[Plus]

This thread is about petition being thrown out if it reaches the government.

FIDF land, background of AEC members, or junta issued laws does not belong here and there's no connection whatsoever.

Well actually there is a common thread here, however much you protest.

What is the connection then? Why don't you mention it so I don't have to ask for clarifications?

Injustice towards Thaksin is mentioned only briefly in the patition, and the King has no constitutional power to overrule court verdicts, so Thaksin will never be declared not-guilty. What's the point of arguing his innocence here?

The govt will throw the petition out for totally different reasons anyway.

And yes, I sense that people will continue to try and divert the topic regardless of my protests.

[animatic]

Yes the FDIF is irrelevant to this whole petition.

Clauswitz whole reference to Wikipedia as a source is even less relevant.

Editable at any moment, accurate as a blunt hammer through a sewing needle.

AEC didn't convict Thaksin,

it was ONLY an investigative body, nothing more.

Sore losers will always look to discredit those who beat them.

Tater tots and not much more.

[hammered]

At the end of the day the government will probably toss the petition on some ground or other if it heads their way and as the organic laws and regulations seem to route it that way it probably will. Thailand has a constitutional monarchy and not an absolute one so what the organic laws and regulations say still count as long as they dont contradict the constitution.

With millions asking for something and millions asking for it not to be given in the context of a hoprribly polarised and at times violent political divide spurred by ever ramped up power plays, it is not exactly something that was going to easy to make a decision on. The petition has however already succeeded in the other areas it was intended to work.

[Artisi]

Pro, anti, or don't give a toss. Regardless of how you feel, this endless game isn't doing the country any good. Thaksin needs to be given clemency in exchange for staying out of politics. The country doesn't need this ongoing circus.

Why should Thaksin be given any clemency to stay out of politics, he should be in gaol where he belongs - anyway, clemency doesn't appear in Thaksin vocab.and you couldn't trust him out of sight on a dark night.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Artisi

[MILT]

Bad move for the the anti-democratic lead and illegal Abhisit government!

No Great move by the Democratic lead and legal Abhisit Government. Support Mr. Thaskin coming back to Thailand and facing his accusers. Since he is so sqeaky clean in the eyes of his suppporters and obviously has the support and protection of Red Shirts he should be able to fight the charges layed against him. However; the tactics he and his supporters are choosing to use to gain him access back to his home raises serious doubts to his innocence.

[animatic]

If he WAS innocent of ALL charges, he could easily have come back quietly and beat the charges.

But his insistence on clinging to this chimera of lost power is so monomaniacal

that he can't just become a normal quiet citizen and face the music like a man.

His insistence at making political manipulations is what makes this a 'political' set of trials,

and not just a 'violation of laws' set of criminal trials. He makes it continue to be political.

No doubt he could slide past many of the charges ; thing is, where there's smoke there's fire.

He can't beat them all, because there IS FIRE, and he knows it.

No other reason to flee from a cakewalk, 2 year/ 9 month in stir with clemency, jail sentence.

He could easily bribe his way into scintillating luxury in jail, and not lose a wink of sleep.

Jailors would fight to become his keepers, and harness that gravy train,

and future step up in status as his friend who kept him 'content in his darkest hour', yada yada yada.

Couple this to the PTP dregs of TRT/PPP and the 111+ and the RedShitLeaders

all remembering a better gravy train of the past,

and having pissed off all other sides, thus having nowhere else to go,

they are milking and pandering to Thaksin's delusions big time,

and creating a generation of narrowly reddened minds, clinging to a

propaganda machines rosy portrait of a future based on a fantasy.

Delusions, feeding greed, feeding delusions.

Cloaked in a neo-patriotistic-nationalism, that is exclusionary, while calling itself inclusive.

Paternalistic in acting anti-paternalist no less. In the name of the Father who art called Thakisin.

Hallowed be his steps set in the sand, forever shall our little red hooves tread on his path.

Baaah said the sheeple, as they trotted off to slaughter, to make the farmer rich.

Screaming dichotomies!

Edited August 18, 2009 by animatic

[Jingthing]

Pro, anti, or don't give a toss. Regardless of how you feel, this endless game isn't doing the country any good. Thaksin needs to be given clemency in exchange for staying out of politics. The country doesn't need this ongoing circus.

Why should Thaksin be given any clemency to stay out of politics, he should be in gaol where he belongs - anyway, clemency doesn't appear in Thaksin vocab.and you couldn't trust him out of sight on a dark night.

The man cannot be TRUSTED to stay out of politics, no matter what deal he is given. The time is well past where he can hope to get a civilized deal (BLACK SONGKRAN).

[Samuian]

Here some excerpts and comments - from an Article in The Nation - Thaksin's (Defense) speech yesterday:

Leading figures and legal pundits reminded the parties concerned about the pardon process- and so campaign organisers shrewdly re-branded the petition from seeking a royal pardon to voicing the people's suffering from injustice.

By accident or design, the wording of the petition was murky from the start, simplifying the reclassification of the campaign.

He said his success brought about his downfall because his opponents would have lost their vested interests with any advance of democracy.

Because of his ousting, the people suffered. The political system went haywire and he became a victim of reprisal, he said.

twist, twist, twist - hey, hey, hey-ya - let's twist again!

It was a joke for the buyer and the seller to win an acquittal - while he was penalized with a two-year jail term for giving spousal consent to seal the Ratchadaphisek land transaction, he said.

He omitted to mention, however, that the sentencing was based on his wrongdoing committed as prime minister, wielding influence over the transaction.

This guy is incredible - he might believe all of this himself!

Even though he takes pride in his intellectual prowess, he appears to have overlooked no one can turn the clock back. He has fought and lost in the power struggle since 2006. And now he wants a rematch by invoking the monarchy to come to his rescue.

As a self-proclaimed democracy advocate, he should have realized the impropriety of seeking a royal intervention in the political and judicial process.

......to be continued...

[Artisi]

Pro, anti, or don't give a toss. Regardless of how you feel, this endless game isn't doing the country any good. Thaksin needs to be given clemency in exchange for staying out of politics. The country doesn't need this ongoing circus.

Why should Thaksin be given any clemency to stay out of politics, he should be in gaol where he belongs - anyway, clemency doesn't appear in Thaksin vocab.and you couldn't trust him out of sight on a dark night.

The man cannot be TRUSTED to stay out of politics, no matter what deal he is given. The time is well past where he can hope to get a civilized deal (BLACK SONGKRAN).

"Civilized deal" No deal is the only deal he should be offered.

[hammered]

Interesting that the Royal Secretariat handed the petition over to the government for recommendation about two hours after receiving it.

[Thai at Heart]

Interesting that the Royal Secretariat handed the petition over to the government for recommendation about two hours after receiving it.

I think more technically, it is for the government to give it's recommendation.

That is the procedure.

I would have been infinitely more interesting if they hadn't. Just imagine how gnawed the fingernails of the current government would have been if it hadn't been handed over, which would have been against normal protocol.

I pointed out a discussion on Bangkok pundit either in here or in another thread that gives the entire proper procedure and it's various possible outcomes. It is a complicated legal issue and I don't want to put an interpretation on it.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[Thai at Heart]

Suthep confirms petition with cabinet

Writer: BangkokPost.com

Published: 18/08/2009 at 11:03 AM

The red-shirts' petition for a pardon for Thaksin Shinawatra has been referred to the cabinet by the office of His Majesty's Principal Private Secretary, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban confirmed on Tuesday morning.

The petition would be sent to the Justice Ministry for consideration.

Mr Suthep said a panel of the experts would probably be set up to consider the petition and make a recommendation to the cabinet on further action.

The deputy premier, speaking before today's cabinet meeting, said there was nothing to prevent the pro-Thaksin United front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) setting up red-shirt schools in the provinces, as announced.

“But if the plan is aimed at provoking unrest or destroying the high institution, the UDD leaders will face stringent legal action,” Mr Suthep said.

PM’s Office Minister Satit Wongnongtaey said the government would begin a nationwide publicity campaign to educate people about the petition process.

“The red-shirt leaders have misled the people into the belief that after they presented the petition Thaksin would certainly get a royal pardon,” Mr Satit said. This was not the case/quote]

Hasn't the government been telling everyone for the last few weeks that in their opinion the petition was illegal? In which case, why do they need to consider it? Just read the legal opinion and have done with it.

I wonder who will get to give the press conference explaining the judgement? This play by Thaksin; which is as morally dodgy as they come has put the government in a complete lose/lose situation.

[hammered]

It would be interesting to know exactly what documantation a signatory had to provide. I remember people telling me for some PAD petition a copy of tabien bahn was required along with signature or thumb print and ID number to satisfy legal requirement and that without this the signature was niot accepted although I cant say I ever checked is this were true. Anyway I would guess it would be more than just a signature/thumb print. Checking the 3.4 or 3.5 million claimed signatures will take time.

[Thai at Heart]

It would be interesting to know exactly what documantation a signatory had to provide. I remember people telling me for some PAD petition a copy of tabien bahn was required along with signature or thumb print and ID number to satisfy legal requirement and that without this the signature was niot accepted although I cant say I ever checked is this were true. Anyway I would guess it would be more than just a signature/thumb print. Checking the 3.4 or 3.5 million claimed signatures will take time.

I heard signature and ID card number.

I found this looking for something the other day, but it would be applicable to a request for a pardon from an existing prisoner, so not applicable really.

http://www.phaseloop.com/foreignprisoners/transfer-uk.html

However, it would appear that the request being submitted is a plea to alleviate duress or suffering of the people who have signed the petition. This in itself makes it a curious legal problem and difficult to address IMHO.

[hammered]

It would be interesting to know exactly what documantation a signatory had to provide. I remember people telling me for some PAD petition a copy of tabien bahn was required along with signature or thumb print and ID number to satisfy legal requirement and that without this the signature was niot accepted although I cant say I ever checked is this were true. Anyway I would guess it would be more than just a signature/thumb print. Checking the 3.4 or 3.5 million claimed signatures will take time.

I heard signature and ID card number.

I found this looking for something the other day, but it would be applicable to a request for a pardon from an existing prisoner, so not applicable really.

http://www.phaseloop.com/foreignprisoners/transfer-uk.html

However, it would appear that the request being submitted is a plea to alleviate duress or suffering of the people who have signed the petition. This in itself makes it a curious legal problem and difficult to address IMHO.

Indeed it seems the petitoners changed from a pardon to appeal for help during the campaign. One notable and usually red sympathetic commetor on BP claimed the red leaders had messed the campaign up by not reading the law properly when they launched it. If asking for a pardon, the answer would seem to clearly be they had done it in the wrong way. A request for help is a lot less clear technically. However, expecting a decision one way or the other on such a contentious and divisive issue is probably expecting a lot. Changing tact mid way and how the wording read may or may not give the government a technical out based on legal advice. I could also think of other ways out without giving an answer but wont mention them here.

The PAD didnt get anywhere with their section 7 attempt backed by petition.

My feeling is that this whole campaign is aimed at other things anyway but it is a bit difficult to discuss beyond it being a PR exercise and reminder of numbers.

[Samuian]

It would be interesting to know exactly what documantation a signatory had to provide. I remember people telling me for some PAD petition a copy of tabien bahn was required along with signature or thumb print and ID number to satisfy legal requirement and that without this the signature was niot accepted although I cant say I ever checked is this were true. Anyway I would guess it would be more than just a signature/thumb print. Checking the 3.4 or 3.5 million claimed signatures will take time.

I heard signature and ID card number.

I found this looking for something the other day, but it would be applicable to a request for a pardon from an existing prisoner, so not applicable really.

http://www.phaseloop.com/foreignprisoners/transfer-uk.html

However, it would appear that the request being submitted is a plea to alleviate duress or suffering of the people who have signed the petition. This in itself makes it a curious legal problem and difficult to address IMHO.

Indeed it seems the petitoners changed from a pardon to appeal for help during the campaign. One notable and usually red sympathetic commetor on BP claimed the red leaders had messed the campaign up by not reading the law properly when they launched it. If asking for a pardon, the answer would seem to clearly be they had done it in the wrong way. A request for help is a lot less clear technically. However, expecting a decision one way or the other on such a contentious and divisive issue is probably expecting a lot. Changing tact mid way and how the wording read may or may not give the government a technical out based on legal advice. I could also think of other ways out without giving an answer but wont mention them here.

The PAD didnt get anywhere with their section 7 attempt backed by petition.

My feeling is that this whole campaign is aimed at other things anyway but it is a bit difficult to discuss beyond it being a PR exercise and reminder of numbers.

Is exactly what it seems the action was all about, make it dramatic,

make the voices heard, claim innocence and being the savior all and alone!

PR of a group of power hungry megalomaniacs!

[Wolfie]

Interesting that the signatures were gathered under the premis of this being a petition for Royal Pardon, and yet it was then changed and submitted as a "Seeking help" plea.

Surely then this becomes 500 boxes of waste paper, as the submitted 'application' was not what the signaturies originally signed for...

[TAWP]

Interesting that the signatures were gathered under the premis of this being a petition for Royal Pardon, and yet it was then changed and submitted as a "Seeking help" plea.

Surely then this becomes 500 boxes of waste paper, as the submitted 'application' was not what the signaturies originally signed for...

I suppose in that sense we should be happy it was only half the reported number of signatures as it saved some trees from being wasted for no use...

[Jingthing]

Am I the first to say it: this petition brouhaha has turned out to be a BIG DUD by the reds. Something to celebrate in that.

[hammered]

Am I the first to say it: this petition brouhaha has turned out to be a BIG DUD by the reds. Something to celebrate in that.

Suthichai Yoon predicted that a while ago

[hammered]

If anyone ios interested the print version of the Post today has a full translation of the petition. It does eventually ask for a pardon but first goers through all this duress of the peopel stuff, only Thaksin can save the conomy and some anti-coup stuff. Lots of political rhetoric and then pardon him so he can save the country kind of thing. It doesnt really read like a pardon document but a political one.

The print version of the Post has a nice cartoon on it today too.