Abhisit Dismisses Rumours Of House Dissolution

[george]

NAMING NEW POLICE CHIEF

PM dismisses rumours of House dissolution

BANGKOK: -- Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Friday held a series of meetings with his top advisers to avert a challenge to his leadership in the wake of a botched attempt to name the new police chief on Thursday.

Abhisit also dismissed speculation he might dissolve the House after his failure to push through the nomination of General Patheep Tanprasert to succeed outgoing national police chief General Patcharawat Wongsuwan.

"Don't let your imagination run wild," he said in reference to the concern for House dissolution. There was neither conflict with the legislative branch nor a policy clash to warrant a snap election, he added.

He appeared tense, however, in trying to resolve the impasse over the picking of Patcharawat's successor. He side stepped a direct question about Interior Minister Chaovarat Chanweerakul's opposition to his nomination of Patheep. He said he had not had a chance to talk to the minister who is a coalition partner from Bhum Jai Thai Party.

Regardless of the stumbling block to the nomination process, he said he expected to have the name of the new police chief before October. Patcharawat is scheduled for mandatory retirement in September.

-- The Nation 2009-08-21

[jasreeve17]

Yeah, it's power politics here all day long...

He really can't get anything done, the old big hitters (and their families) are still around and running the show... Abhisit is a very ineffective 'leader'. If by some miricle he started to become effective he'd be kicked straight out by his masters.

Even though he was a fool to come to power the way he did, he probably does want change for the better (in some ways at least) - he has no chance!

[mc2]

"there was neither conflict with the legislative branch nor a policy clash to warrant a snap election...."....but there are other 'conflicts' warranting a snap election.

the pro-democracy forces are gathering, and becoming telescopically focussed on an election...nothing else.

an election focussed BKK rally next Sunday bringing this issue squarelly into focus

these forces are continuing to be ignored at his peril.

how long can they continue to be stonewalled?

we may not be at the end of this cobbled together government, but I can see the end from here.

[jasreeve17]

But, he made his deal with the devil and he has nowhere to go...

An election would see MrT win.

If he tries to do a good job as PM then the devils who pull his strings will kick him out.

He could have bided his time, acted democratically (i.e. against coup makers) and made a great PM in a couple of years...

[h90]

Yeah, it's power politics here all day long...

He really can't get anything done, the old big hitters (and their families) are still around and running the show... Abhisit is a very ineffective 'leader'. If by some miricle he started to become effective he'd be kicked straight out by his masters.

Even though he was a fool to come to power the way he did, he probably does want change for the better (in some ways at least) - he has no chance!

And he has the constitution which does not give him much power.

If there is a constitution which gives more power to the PM, an evil person like Thaksin will abuse it again.

Solutions?

Election than a) the same situation again, or worse with some Thaksin nominee in power...so no help.

A military coup: than at best you get someone same as Surayud who tries it best but is unable to solve the problems+international it would look bad.

So the only hope is that Abhisit slowly gain more power and control, but that means on the other hand that he waste a lot of times with power games.

[jasreeve17]

Yeah, it's power politics here all day long...

He really can't get anything done, the old big hitters (and their families) are still around and running the show... Abhisit is a very ineffective 'leader'. If by some miricle he started to become effective he'd be kicked straight out by his masters.

Even though he was a fool to come to power the way he did, he probably does want change for the better (in some ways at least) - he has no chance!

And he has the constitution which does not give him much power.

If there is a constitution which gives more power to the PM, an evil person like Thaksin will abuse it again.

Solutions?

Election than a) the same situation again, or worse with some Thaksin nominee in power...so no help.

A military coup: than at best you get someone same as Surayud who tries it best but is unable to solve the problems+international it would look bad.

So the only hope is that Abhisit slowly gain more power and control, but that means on the other hand that he waste a lot of times with power games.

Sooner or later any democracy must go for your option A and that'll bring back MrT who'll have more power than ever...

Your last option is unrealistic, you and I (and the rest of Thailand) know that as soon as he neeeearly becomes strong enough the power brokers (he foolishly made deals with...) will kick him out. The minute he turned his back on democracy he lost... A military coup and the people they put in are ALWAYS a step backwards. If Abhisit had worked democratically within the system he would have become an excellent PM in time - he is very badly tarnished and powerless now.

Your friend Sondhi found out what happens to the fools that make deals with the devil... you can't win that way, you must stay within democratic priciples. Everything they worked hard for (and undemocratically) has backfired on them. I actually feel sorry for the majority of yellow shirters who are decent people that want democratic change, but went about it undemocratically; underpinned by the people that are the least democratic of the lot...

[baht&sold]

But, he made his deal with the devil and he has nowhere to go...

An election would see MrT win.

If he tries to do a good job as PM then the devils who pull his strings will kick him out.

He could have bided his time, acted democratically (i.e. against coup makers) and made a great PM in a couple of years...

Actually, Mr Thaksin wouldn't win as he can't run (know you meant his party though).

That leaves probable PM Chalerm as the likely next Thaksin proxy PM... The right honourable Mr Chalerm has stated his TOP priority as 'democratically' elected PM would be changing the constitution, freeing up the banned TRT bretheren and exonerating Mr Thaksin (all to 'return democracy' apparently). This would of course bring the yellows back in even greater numbers and here we go all over again... (no-thank-you).

Also, Puea Thai would end up with a minority Govt (again) and have to cobble a majority with Mr Newin's faction... And what a great duo for Thailand's future... all with Thailand's interest at heart, not their own... (and no Abhisit with his 'pesky' transparency demands in the way...)

Sadly, some are likely salivating at the high likelihood of yet more upheaval to come, quite possibly Songkran 2 ++, which would also doom any hopes for even a modest high season. In the event of another incited conflict likely to come, it hardly matters how one may wish to 'colour' the 'winner', Thailand would ultimately lose, and worst case possibly for the forseeable future.

If Mr Thaksin's family suddenly all go on emergency overseas 'shopping missions' again, when Mr Thaksin is at the same time pleading for his supporters to bring their own kids to protest again, this will be the strongest sign Songkran 2 (or possibly worse) is about to kick off...

Chok dee all.

Edited August 21, 2009 by baht&sold

[baht&sold]

Thai "red shirts" to rally at Govt House again

BANGKOK, Aug 21 (Reuters) - Supporters of former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra announced plans on Friday to rally outside Government House later this month and demand the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. "We will call on Abhisit to dissolve the house because he is clearly an incompetent leader," said Nattawut Saikeau, a core leader of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), better known as the "red shirts".

The UDD's three-week occupation of the seat of government in April led to Thailand's worst street violence in 17 years, forcing Abhisit to call a state of emergency and deploy hundreds of troops to disperse the protesters.

More than 20,000 "red shirts" rallied peacefully in Bangkok on Monday to submit a petition with 3.5 million signatures seeking a royal pardon for Thaksin, who skipped bail in October before getting a two-year prison sentence for graft. Thaksin maintains he is innocent and that his conviction was politically motivated.

The prospect of more demonstrations will add to fears of an escalation in Thailand's four-year political crisis, and may dent the confidence of investors and tourists, hampering Abhisit's efforts to revive the economy.

The planned demonstration on Aug. 30 would be the fifth big show of support in the capital for the former telecoms tycoon, ousted in a military coup in 2006 and now in self-imposed exile.

Analysts say Thaksin is seeking to discredit Abhisit and his shaky coalition to force new elections, which the Puea Thai party he backs is widely expected to win, albeit without an outright majority.

-- Reuters 21 Aug 2009

[jasreeve17]

That leaves probable PM Chalerm as the likely next Thaksin proxy PM... The right honourable Mr Chalerm has stated his TOP priority as 'democratically' elected PM would be changing the constitution, freeing up the banned TRT bretheren and exonerating Mr Thaksin (all to 'return democracy' apparently). This would of course bring the yellows back in even greater numbers and here we go all over again... (no-thank-you).

Because an army coup, tied the people's hands to get the constitution changes, then put in a set of judges to ban the folk they illegally forced out with the guns and tanks (at least it was illegal before they changed the constitution...).

They are all as bad as each other, but this country needs to break the cycle of coups and just let 'democracy' take it's course as voted by the people. It's a bumpy road, we know that, but no better (or equal) option exists.

Surely the yellows have seen through how they were used... why would they be stupid enough to come onto the streets again? To increase the army budget again? More money to 'special' army units that are a law unto themselves (Abby tried to get into them, and was laughed off after a mere 48 hours!), more favours to banned politicians like Newin? Why would the yellow shirts come out to help that lot?

I'd be soooooooo happy to see a successful Abby get a foothold and start to clean the place up, but it was never gonna happen the way he went about making deals with the least democratic people out there...

[frodo]

Thai "red shirts" to rally at Govt House again

BANGKOK, Aug 21 (Reuters) - Supporters of former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra announced plans on Friday to rally outside Government House later this month and demand the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. "We will call on Abhisit to dissolve the house because he is clearly an incompetent leader," said Nattawut Saikeau, a core leader of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), better known as the "red shirts".

-- Reuters 21 Aug 2009

All about money and lies. The only reason these goons want this rally is that they now understand the petition they presented will do nothing to get Thaksin his illegally gotten gains back. Jatuporn has been screaming all week to the government about slowing down the process and making threats if they do. They now realize it will go beyond the date Thaksin's verdict is due. What to do now? Rally of course! Nothing democratic about UDD and they too are playing with the devil. If these leaders wind up like Sondhi or worse, so be it. They know the consequences and no great loss as far as I am concerned. The reds have been violent since the onset of things, and it seems like they're not slowing down. Sad refection for Thailand.

[Chunkton]

Yeah, it's power politics here all day long...

He really can't get anything done, the old big hitters (and their families) are still around and running the show... Abhisit is a very ineffective 'leader'. If by some miricle he started to become effective he'd be kicked straight out by his masters.

Even though he was a fool to come to power the way he did, he probably does want change for the better (in some ways at least) - he has no chance!

And he has the constitution which does not give him much power.

If there is a constitution which gives more power to the PM, an evil person like Thaksin will abuse it again.

Solutions?

Election than a) the same situation again, or worse with some Thaksin nominee in power...so no help.

A military coup: than at best you get someone same as Surayud who tries it best but is unable to solve the problems+international it would look bad.

So the only hope is that Abhisit slowly gain more power and control, but that means on the other hand that he waste a lot of times with power games.

So you are clearly stating that if an election were held that a Taksin nominee would win. Well can't allow free and popular elections can we now, not if our favored party won't win.

So then need to either follow the PAD appointed system or better still rig the elections. That worked well recently in the successful economies of Zimbabwe and Iran, should be a no brainer here. The army here will no doubt take great joy in beating the crap out of any protesters (they have experience), should a few die as in other countries serves them right.

Also saves having to find some ridiculous clause to toss the elected party out, saving the ready judiciary at least some face. I'm with you, should apply this in our home countries as well. Why don't you mention your political philosophy to your home online newspapers, don't be shy, you will be buried in support.

[jasreeve17]

Thai "red shirts" to rally at Govt House again

BANGKOK, Aug 21 (Reuters) - Supporters of former Thai premier Thaksin Shinawatra announced plans on Friday to rally outside Government House later this month and demand the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva. "We will call on Abhisit to dissolve the house because he is clearly an incompetent leader," said Nattawut Saikeau, a core leader of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), better known as the "red shirts".

-- Reuters 21 Aug 2009

All about money and lies. The only reason these goons want this rally is that they now understand the petition they presented will do nothing to get Thaksin his illegally gotten gains back. Jatuporn has been screaming all week to the government about slowing down the process and making threats if they do. They now realize it will go beyond the date Thaksin's verdict is due. What to do now? Rally of course! Nothing democratic about UDD and they too are playing with the devil. If these leaders wind up like Sondhi or worse, so be it. They know the consequences and no great loss as far as I am concerned. The reds have been violent since the onset of things, and it seems like they're not slowing down. Sad refection for Thailand.

I was at Sanam Luang last week, and there was nothing violent or thuggish about it. Nor was there anything violent or thuggish about the couple of yellow shirt rallies I've passed through. The majority of peaceful folk on both sides just want democracy and an end to corruption.

But, of course it is all about money and lies, and the normal folk are used as pawns... Both sides who are frantically fighting against each other and gaining - nothing. The army, and old power brokers like newin have gotten all the benefits. Abhist was fooled, as was Sondhi and the yellow shirts, of course MrT wants to fool the red shirts too.

The main point is, we need to get the army and coup mentality out of politics; let democracy start it's winding road, when it gets rocky; stick with it, it'll pull us through...

As I've underlined, your words are more violent than most folks actions, shame on you.

Edited August 21, 2009 by jasreeve17

[frodo]

No shame at all as far as I'm concerned. They know the consequences of their actions and I could care less.

[sunnymarky]

"there was neither conflict with the legislative branch nor a policy clash to warrant a snap election...."....but there are other 'conflicts' warranting a snap election.

the pro-democracy forces are gathering, and becoming telescopically focussed on an election...nothing else.

an election focussed BKK rally next Sunday bringing this issue squarelly into focus

these forces are continuing to be ignored at his peril.

how long can they continue to be stonewalled?

we may not be at the end of this cobbled together government, but I can see the end from here.

your red shirt buddies and the guy in your photo hoping for a return to power? No chance Well unless you bribe your electorate again ,, just like the Fake signatures of the Joke pardon for the Criminal EX PM s Royal Pardon

[h90]

Yeah, it's power politics here all day long...

He really can't get anything done, the old big hitters (and their families) are still around and running the show... Abhisit is a very ineffective 'leader'. If by some miricle he started to become effective he'd be kicked straight out by his masters.

Even though he was a fool to come to power the way he did, he probably does want change for the better (in some ways at least) - he has no chance!

And he has the constitution which does not give him much power.

If there is a constitution which gives more power to the PM, an evil person like Thaksin will abuse it again.

Solutions?

Election than a) the same situation again, or worse with some Thaksin nominee in power...so no help.

A military coup: than at best you get someone same as Surayud who tries it best but is unable to solve the problems+international it would look bad.

So the only hope is that Abhisit slowly gain more power and control, but that means on the other hand that he waste a lot of times with power games.

So you are clearly stating that if an election were held that a Taksin nominee would win. Well can't allow free and popular elections can we now, not if our favored party won't win.

So then need to either follow the PAD appointed system or better still rig the elections. That worked well recently in the successful economies of Zimbabwe and Iran, should be a no brainer here. The army here will no doubt take great joy in beating the crap out of any protesters (they have experience), should a few die as in other countries serves them right.

Also saves having to find some ridiculous clause to toss the elected party out, saving the ready judiciary at least some face. I'm with you, should apply this in our home countries as well. Why don't you mention your political philosophy to your home online newspapers, don't be shy, you will be buried in support.

First of all he will do again vote buying, so he is not democratic elected.

Second he is a mass-murder and if people vote for him or not, he is still a mass-murder and must be blocked by all means to kill more people.

[jasreeve17]

First of all he will do again vote buying, so he is not democratic elected.

Second he is a mass-murder and if people vote for him or not, he is still a mass-murder and must be blocked by all means to kill more people.

First; the last election had offers of UN observers - surprise surprise the army said no... funny that. Get the UN observers in! The reds would win easily in a straight election.

Second; the drugs killings were a disgrace; fully supported by the vast majority of Thai society at every level...

Your hatred of MrT is great........ for the army, nobody else. Sorry H90, but the army must love you and your ilk because you just play to their tune. While you're focused on MrT and his ill doings (which I agree with you he's a nightmare) they are getting away with faaaar worse. When will you lot take your blinkers off?

Edited August 21, 2009 by jasreeve17

[baht&sold]

the army must love you and your ilk because you just play to their tune. While you're focused on MrT and his ill doings (which I agree with you he's a nightmare) they are getting away with faaaar worse. When will you lot take your blinkers off?

Speaking of convenient blinkers, would this also include Mr Thaksin's many loyal Army contingents such as Puea Thai Chief advisor Gen Chetta and Mr Thaksin's cousin former Supreme Commander Gen Chaisit Shinawatra among several others?

A head-count of needed loyalties to 'preserve and protect' a Jurassic system of corruption counted on by many square-head devotees (including the many devout square-red-faced BIB) will be required in the unfortunate red-pawn uprising/cynically used sacrifice which is coming, starting as soon as next Sunday (potentially finishing Thailand off for the foreseeable future).

May Thailand somehow overcome for the sake of REAL progress for once. This is the very thing many fear, real progress in Thailand. Including many Walter Mitty farangs who fear being left behind- or worse, forced to resume their self-assumed rejected existence from elsewhere (keep the illusion alive (!) no matter the cost to a supposedly beloved Nation).

But take heart Walter Mitty's, progress appears doubtful.

Edited August 21, 2009 by baht&sold

[redscouse]

First of all he will do again vote buying, so he is not democratic elected.

Second he is a mass-murder and if people vote for him or not, he is still a mass-murder and must be blocked by all means to kill more people.

Is such defamation allowed on this forum? I will be surprised if it is.

Edited August 21, 2009 by redscouse

[Plus]

I was at Sanam Luang last week, and there was nothing violent or thuggish about it. Nor was there anything violent or thuggish about the couple of yellow shirt rallies I've passed through. The majority of peaceful folk on both sides just want democracy and an end to corruption.

I thought reds idea is "everyone's corrupt but Thaksin paid back more". No?

"there was neither conflict with the legislative branch nor a policy clash to warrant a snap election...."....but there are other 'conflicts' warranting a snap election.

No, they don't.

None of the items on the new red agenda warrants new elections. More importantly, if they argue those points instead of their usual "illegitimate" charge they tacitly admit that Abhisit has all the rights to PMship and then reds contradict their own agenda - respect for electoral results. There will be next "no confidence" debate where they can raise all those points and some more, if they want.

.. if an election were held that a Taksin nominee would win.

Win what? What does elections "win" mean? There's very little chance that PTP can form a new government despite winning more parliament seats than anybody else, and if they do - they will be forced to work for the country, not Thaksin. They tried that already last year - Thaksin's nominee government doesn't mean Thaksin will get any benefits.

[hammered]

You have too many competing factions both inside and outside of government right now.

1. Abhisit's Dems

2. Suthep's Dems. Slightly different form the above

3. Newin's boyos

4. Banharn's boyos. Relatively quiet but always up for some change to get a greater piece of the pie

5. Thaksin and his active street supporters plus PTP

6. pro-democracy red shirts. Slightly different from the above

7. PAD party

8. PAD sympathisers. Slightly different from the above and not really party supporting

9. The army brass and most of the army

10. The rest of the military not in group 9

11. The sidelined Thaksin linked elements in the military

It is not some simplistic two sided thing but a power struggle where any or all groups can change allegiance. It is about pure power. And in that struggle anything goes.

[otherstuff1957]

The Red cheerleaders hear keep on claiming that they would win a majority of the votes in any new election. However, they forget that there is more to Thailand than Issan and Chiang Mai. After the events of last Songkran it is highly unlikely that they would win any seats in Bangkok and they will certainly be entirely shut out in the South. So, their only hope is central Thailand. I strongly suspect that the latest incarnation of TRT would win 40% of the seats in Parliament (in the best case) and probably closer to 30%.

This means that we would have another coalition government lead by either TRT/PT or the Democrats, either of whom will have to make deals with the usual powerbrokers (Newin, Banharn & maybe Sanoh).

Of course, if this did happen, we can expect mc2, C-tosser, et al, complaining about the rigged election that stole their overwhelming majority.

[Xangsamhua]

They are all as bad as each other, but this country needs to break the cycle of coups and just let 'democracy' take it's course as voted by the people. It's a bumpy road, we know that, but no better (or equal) option exists.

It's not just about democracy vs oligarchy, or "muddling through" to the best possible outcome.

The PAD were on about government with accountability; the UDD seems to have either no interest in accountability or no idea of what it is.

This contribution to a Washington Post report in September 2006 is interesting:

Mr. Snoh Tienthong, an ex-Deputy Leader of Thaksin's TRT Party and no. 18 on his party list explained how the Thaksin system worked.

"He placed one of his own people in every ministry. These people did not need to have a powerful post, but everybody knew who they were ... If any minister wanted to propose a project using the central budget, the minister would first have to clear it with 'his person' first. Many ministers were approached by 'his person' saying, 'The budget is coming. You can have five or six billion, but 10 per cent must go to the party ... Any minister who would not do this, could not remain."

Snoh explained further.

"For this 10 per cent policy, the minister would have to pad the budget proposed for approval to include the 10 per cent that would go to the party. Then once it was agreed with 'his person' via Khunying Potjaman (wife of Thaksin), the matter could be sent to his trusted 'permanent political representative', who used to be his company employee. To date nobody knows how much this 10 per cent amounts to. Probably need to ask Khunying."

Snoh claims to have asked Pojaman what she needed so many billions for, and got this answer: "In politics you have to hand out money. It has to be considered a business." Snoh asked her what would happen if things blew up, and she replied, "If Thaksin falls, the Thai Rak Thai Party will have to stay in power for at least two more terms for safety."

You can read the full Washington Post discussion on it here.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglo...as_thaksin.html

The Pasuk and Baker book (2004) on Thaksin is also well worth a read, as things were becoming clearer by then.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Xangsamhua

[jasreeve17]

People need to get beyond this yellow shirt - red shirt fight because only the army (and one or two other awful elements) benefit from this blinkered 'view'point. BTW, I've never been a MrT supporter, and never will be.

b&s; were you just in from the pub when you posted that? I don't know what your rant was attempting to say, but I fully support democratic rule after a UN supported clean election. Army pressure / control has no place in politcs, full stop. Of course their are many other areas that need to be cleaned up too - MrT is equally power crazed and corrupt as all the others, but he was (and I think would be again) elected in by the majority; that's the difference.

plus; I think that's right, the majority of Thais have been very frustrated with the state of Thai politics for decades, but saw some movement forward for the first time ever when MrT actually gave something back - hence his support. Your last point; I very much hope that MrT's government would be 'forced' to work for the country rather than personal benefits - that's what he is elected for.

Abhisit has always been considered weak (rightly or wrongly) and his inability to run the show now reinforces this belief (I think otherwise; that it's actually the untenable position he put himself in rather than a personal weakness). Thus, a strong leader is what Thais want to:

1) kill of army politics once and for all.

2) strongly lead the country forward and actually get things done.

Since MrT we've had 4 pm's none of which have moved the country forward at all, this just makes MrT appear even better... I may not agree, but this is the Thai mindset, in my opinion.

I'd like to see some reconciliation where the elected leader works for the people with strong support from other capable politicians - that'd probably mean MrT at the helm supported by Abhisit with a fully transparent and functioning government. (Never happen...)

[hammered]

They are all as bad as each other, but this country needs to break the cycle of coups and just let 'democracy' take it's course as voted by the people. It's a bumpy road, we know that, but no better (or equal) option exists.

It's not just about democracy vs oligarchy, or "muddling through" to the best possible outcome.

The PAD were on about government with accountability; the UDD seems to have either no interest in accountability or no idea of what it is.

This contribution to a Washington Post report in September 2006 is interesting:

Mr. Snoh Tienthong, an ex-Deputy Leader of Thaksin's TRT Party and no. 18 on his party list explained how the Thaksin system worked.

"He placed one of his own people in every ministry. These people did not need to have a powerful post, but everybody knew who they were ... If any minister wanted to propose a project using the central budget, the minister would first have to clear it with 'his person' first. Many ministers were approached by 'his person' saying, 'The budget is coming. You can have five or six billion, but 10 per cent must go to the party ... Any minister who would not do this, could not remain."

Snoh explained further.

"For this 10 per cent policy, the minister would have to pad the budget proposed for approval to include the 10 per cent that would go to the party. Then once it was agreed with 'his person' via Khunying Potjaman (wife of Thaksin), the matter could be sent to his trusted 'permanent political representative', who used to be his company employee. To date nobody knows how much this 10 per cent amounts to. Probably need to ask Khunying."

Snoh claims to have asked Pojaman what she needed so many billions for, and got this answer: "In politics you have to hand out money. It has to be considered a business." Snoh asked her what would happen if things blew up, and she replied, "If Thaksin falls, the Thai Rak Thai Party will have to stay in power for at least two more terms for safety."

You can read the full Washington Post discussion on it here.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglo...as_thaksin.html

The Pasuk and Baker book (2004) on Thaksin is also well worth a read, as things were becoming clearer by then.

Required reading for those wanting to understand Thai politcs.

Its interesting that the PAD want accountability but are shall we say a bit weak on the elections. The UDD want elections but are shall we say a bit weak on the accountability. Put the two together and you have functioning democracy. Shame the power players just use everything and everybody.

Banharn has been called the eel but Snoh is on a complete different plain as far as eeldom goes. After what he exposed, he is now back in camp Thaksin....... Guess one day the old dinos will die out which wiont be at all bad for Thailand

[jasreeve17]

It's not just about democracy vs oligarchy, or "muddling through" to the best possible outcome.

The PAD were on about government with accountability; the UDD seems to have either no interest in accountability or no idea of what it is.

I agree about the way MrT ran the government, but look how the PAD behaved and were fooled... You cannot bring democracy and government accountability by making deals with the army and people like Newin.

You must fix the system from within; pressure groups who highlight wrong doing and abuse of power are an important part of this developing democratic system, but said groups must work within democratic and accountable frameworks themselves...

I have no time for MrT. The army and other are even worse - how much accountability do these generals give? What happened the couple of times Abby, as PM, told them he was going to change that? Answer: he got a spanked bottom very quickly.

Actually, it is about democracy vs oligarchy, and always choosing democratic, accountable and fully visible means to drive the country forward. The PAD made awful decissions, as did Abhisit, as did MrT before them - the army must be laughing their heads off; for a few years it looked like their power was slipping...

[jasreeve17]

You can read the full Washington Post discussion on it here.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglo...as_thaksin.html

When I looked at this linked it showed Transparency International's Corruptions Perception Index and The World Bank's Governance Index which both showed improvement during the Thaksin government - is that what you wanted to point out Xangsamhua?

Those figures reinforce how very very corrupt government's before MrT's were (the Dems for example).

MrT was ridiculously corrupt by our western standards (there's a joke in the somewhere; maybe 'standards' should be changed to 'perceptions'), but before him, and after too they're even worse...

[basically, when I was ranting to all the Thais I know during MrT's years they always said - 'you don't realize how bad the options are, they are worse.' Sadly, they were right.]

[animatic]

Nothing more than the SOP of saying anything and everything their opponents do or say is bad or worse.

Red News / FoxNews, only the tint is different.

[Siripon]

You can read the full Washington Post discussion on it here.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglo...as_thaksin.html

When I looked at this linked it showed Transparency International's Corruptions Perception Index and The World Bank's Governance Index which both showed improvement during the Thaksin government - is that what you wanted to point out Xangsamhua?

Those figures reinforce how very very corrupt government's before MrT's were (the Dems for example).

MrT was ridiculously corrupt by our western standards (there's a joke in the somewhere; maybe 'standards' should be changed to 'perceptions'), but before him, and after too they're even worse...

[basically, when I was ranting to all the Thais I know during MrT's years they always said - 'you don't realize how bad the options are, they are worse.' Sadly, they were right.]

Thaksin introduced a new form of corruption -policy corruption, just change the law, ie increase foreign ownership maximum from 25% to 49% to facilitate the Temasek deal- 'hey, it's not corruptiuon, I just changed the law!' before that it was more primitive, like the famous 'read my palm and you can see the commission demanded' ( prior mobile phones with their camers but post hidden tape recorders).

Thaksin could do it because he had a big enough majority to push through any law- the tyranny of the majority- dangerous when politicians are corrupt.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Siripon

[jasreeve17]

You can read the full Washington Post discussion on it here.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglo...as_thaksin.html

When I looked at this linked it showed Transparency International's Corruptions Perception Index and The World Bank's Governance Index which both showed improvement during the Thaksin government - is that what you wanted to point out Xangsamhua?

Those figures reinforce how very very corrupt government's before MrT's were (the Dems for example).

MrT was ridiculously corrupt by our western standards (there's a joke in the somewhere; maybe 'standards' should be changed to 'perceptions'), but before him, and after too they're even worse...

[basically, when I was ranting to all the Thais I know during MrT's years they always said - 'you don't realize how bad the options are, they are worse.' Sadly, they were right.]

Thaksin introduced a new form of corruption -policy corruption, just change the law, ie increase foreign ownership maximum from 25% to 49% to facilitate the Temasek deal- 'hey, it's not corruptiuon, I just changed the law!' before that it was more primitive, like the famous 'read my palm and you can see the commission demanded' ( prior mobile phones with their camers but post hidden tape recorders).

Thaksin could do it because he had a big enough majority to push through any law- the tyranny of the majority- dangerous when politicians are corrupt.

It wasn't new though Siripon - they all do, and they've always done it.

I agree that deals like Temasek are complete abuse of power and not how 'decent folk' behave, but Thai politics is not a home for 'decent folk'. The more people focus solely on MrT the worse everyone suffers at the hands of worse people who have never been elected

[jasreeve17]

Nothing more than the SOP of saying anything and everything their opponents do or say is bad or worse.

Red News / FoxNews, only the tint is different.

I'm happy to agree with that as long as you agree that: Yellow news / Foxnews, only the tint is different...

(By the way, I quoted Transparency International and the World Bank, not the manager or astv, or Red News.)