Do You Support The Governments Use Of The Internal Security Act

[Jingthing]

The reds want to overthrow the current goverment??

Yes they do and they are VIOLENT. Not OK. This has got to stop.

Interesting move you just did there.............

Abridge my post to help your argument, whereas you have misquoted me??

"Methinks you doth protest too much"

Its called a snippet. Totally legit. Otherwise, every post takes up a mile of real estate. Understand the concept? Good!

Edited August 27, 2009 by Jingthing

[h90]

The public stated goal of the red shirts in this rally is the overthrow of the current government to be replaced by a proven dictatorial personality in the name of THAKSIN. In many countries, they would be in jail for treason just saying that. What do you expect the government to do? Bend over? Nobody is justifying the yellow shirt actions before the coup. However, that is the past. We are now living in the present.

The reds want to overthrow the current goverment?? Well what a suprise?

The elected goverment that Thaskin led was overthrown, pots and kettles anyone?

The elected goverment after the military left power were disbarred?

Will and wishes of the majority, ignored, anyone see the irony??

You either believe in democracy where the majority of the people elect who they want. Or you disregard the wishes of the people. Now that is a dictatorship.

We should all be careful what we wish for.........................

And what is exactly undemocratic on the current government?

[monkfish]

100% disagree with using armed forces against any civilians, in this case THAI PEOPLE.

Thia Military vs. Thai people

is that what you want?

Nearly 80% of Thai people (in Bangkok) disagree with you.

Most Bangkokians support security law : Poll

Nearly 80 per cent of Bangkokians supported the government's plan to impose the internal security law in Dusit district during this weekend when pro-Thaksin protesters planned to rally against the Abhisit government, according to Suan Dusit poll.

The Nation

I am, however, presuming that the poll participants were all Thai, which I think is a fair presumption.

I guess you can back the 80% quote up some how?

Does 80% of Bangkok also mean 80% of Thailand?

Any government that uses military force against its own people is not democratic and in fact

tending to the opposite.

Can't believe they were able to brainwash western people living here into thinking that the use of

MILITARY against CIVILIANS is OK. Unbelievable!

[ballpoint]

I guess you can back the 80% quote up some how?

Does 80% of Bangkok also mean 80% of Thailand?

Any government that uses military force against its own people is not democratic and in fact

tending to the opposite.

Can't believe they were able to brainwash western people living here into thinking that the use of

MILITARY against CIVILIANS is OK. Unbelievable!

They are not using MILITARY against CIVILIANS. They are preparing for the possibility of having to use the military against armed, vicious thugs, who have already proved they will themselves kill civilians and threaten their homes and livelihoods. OK?

[monkfish]

100% disagree with using armed forces against any civilians, in this case THAI PEOPLE.

Thia Military vs. Thai people

is that what you want?

Not so different than the National Guard for riot control in the USA. It's not the Thai military versus the Thai people. It's the Thai military protecting the Thai people from violent insurgents who are also Thai.

Errrr so do the National Guard also use M16's against US citizens?

That is terrible remind me not to go to USA again

[monkfish]

The public stated goal of the red shirts in this rally is the overthrow of the current government to be replaced by a proven dictatorial personality in the name of THAKSIN. In many countries, they would be in jail for treason just saying that. What do you expect the government to do? Bend over? Nobody is justifying the yellow shirt actions before the coup. However, that is the past. We are now living in the present.

The reds want to overthrow the current goverment?? Well what a suprise?

The elected goverment that Thaskin led was overthrown, pots and kettles anyone?

The elected goverment after the military left power were disbarred?

Will and wishes of the majority, ignored, anyone see the irony??

You either believe in democracy where the majority of the people elect who they want. Or you disregard the wishes of the people. Now that is a dictatorship.

We should all be careful what we wish for.........................

And what is exactly undemocratic on the current government?

Please remind me did they even have enough seats to form a government?

[laukra]

100% disagree with using armed forces against any civilians, in this case THAI PEOPLE.

Thia Military vs. Thai people

is that what you want?

Nearly 80% of Thai people (in Bangkok) disagree with you.

Most Bangkokians support security law : Poll

Nearly 80 per cent of Bangkokians supported the government's plan to impose the internal security law in Dusit district during this weekend when pro-Thaksin protesters planned to rally against the Abhisit government, according to Suan Dusit poll.

The Nation

I am, however, presuming that the poll participants were all Thai, which I think is a fair presumption.

I guess you can back the 80% quote up some how?

Does 80% of Bangkok also mean 80% of Thailand?

Can't believe they were able to brainwash western people living here into thinking that the use of

MILITARY against CIVILIANS is OK. Unbelievable!

The 80% quote was from the results of the Suan Dusit poll cited in The Nation and NNT articles.

The 80% of Bangkok means Bangkok, where the ISA is being implemented.

Thailand does have other cities, but that is not where the ISA is being implemented and they were not polled.

The 80% represents Thai people, not western people.

Edited August 27, 2009 by laukra

[Narachon]

100% disagree with using armed forces against any civilians, in this case THAI PEOPLE.

Thia Military vs. Thai people

is that what you want?

Not so different than the National Guard for riot control in the USA. It's not the Thai military versus the Thai people. It's the Thai military protecting the Thai people from violent insurgents who are also Thai.

Errrr so do the National Guard also use M16's against US citizens?

Uhmm.... Look up Kent-State Massacre...

Yes, it can happen. Even in America.

That is terrible remind me not to go to USA again

[Thai at Heart]

Enacting these kind of laws prior to any offence being committed is the start of a very slippery slope. Whilst we all hope that the protest passes peacefully, simply placing the act in force may contribute to the likelihood of it escalating.

We all want stability, we all want the current problems to disappear. Dealing with protests in this manner will not solve the current problems which are very deep rooted. Suppressing legal protest will not deal with the issues that Thailand faces today.

Thus, the prophecy is self fulfilling and will give the powers that be an apparent opportunity to enact this kind of law any time there is legal protest on the off chance of preventing something that "threatens National Security".

[Jingthing]

Enacting these kind of laws prior to any offence being committed is the start of a very slippery slope. Whilst we all hope that the protest passes peacefully, simply placing the act in force may contribute to the likelihood of it escalating.

We all want stability, we all want the current problems to disappear. Dealing with protests in this manner will not solve the current problems which are very deep rooted. Suppressing legal protest will not deal with the issues that Thailand faces today.

Thus, the prophecy is self fulfilling and will give the powers that be an apparent opportunity to enact this kind of law any time there is legal protest on the off chance of preventing something that "threatens National Security".

People who throw Molotov cocktails and attack Asean conferences with world leaders attending and attempt to assassinate PM Abhisit most certainly DO NOT want stability. This isn't romper room. Thaksin is desperate. He will do anything.

Another clue: people who get behind such outrageous tactics as the red shirts are using are most certainly NOT pro-democracy.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Jingthing

[Thai at Heart]

Enacting these kind of laws prior to any offence being committed is the start of a very slippery slope. Whilst we all hope that the protest passes peacefully, simply placing the act in force may contribute to the likelihood of it escalating.

We all want stability, we all want the current problems to disappear. Dealing with protests in this manner will not solve the current problems which are very deep rooted. Suppressing legal protest will not deal with the issues that Thailand faces today.

Thus, the prophecy is self fulfilling and will give the powers that be an apparent opportunity to enact this kind of law any time there is legal protest on the off chance of preventing something that "threatens National Security".

People who throw Molotov cocktails and attack Asean conferences with world leaders attending and attempt to assassinate PM Abhisit most certainly DO NOT want stability. This isn't romper room. Thaksin is desperate. He will do anything.

This act is an extremely serious piece of legislation and provides very wide ranging powers to the army beyond simply preventing a protest.

I wouldn't have expected anyone to have clearly stated when it was written that the real reason for it being created was to stifle legal protest. It doesn't need to be enacted prior to any offence being committed and should not be misused in this context.

Essentially ISOC will be running an area of central Bangkok on Sunday with enormous power to lock up anyone they like without recourse to trial and can basically compel the government to do what it sees fit. This is before anyone has committed any offence whatsoever. Better hope you don't get scooped up with the riff raff.

As I said, it is a slippery slope and Burma is literally and metaphorically very close.

[cdnvic]

Bloody hel_l. Such partisanship on both sides be it red/yellow/whatever. Compromise is needed for any chance of reconciliation, looks as though we have a long way to go if Thaivisa is anything to go by.

It's not. Most people here have absolutely no say in whatever the final outcome is.

[Jingthing]

Slippery slope, huh? If Thaksin's red thugs take power, the slope will have well slipped.

[Moonrakers]

Bloody hel_l. Such partisanship on both sides be it red/yellow/whatever. Compromise is needed for any chance of reconciliation, looks as though we have a long way to go if Thaivisa is anything to go by.

It's not. Most people here have absolutely no say in whatever the final outcome is.

Right you are, and lets thank Buddha (or whatever) for that eh!

Bangkok would have been raized to the ground by now if Thaivisa members did have a say in things here.

[Thai at Heart]

Slippery slope, huh? If Thaksin's red thugs take power, the slope will have well slipped.

Let's wait and see. All sides have had their moments over the last 2 years or so.

I hope it goes off on Sunday without anyone having to resort to anything. I would much prefer that this issue was left to the police, and only as an absolute last resort, after all other paths have been exhausted, then the government should choose to put the internal security act into force.

What exactly would they have to do to "take power"? Last time I looked this was a democratic country with a democratically elected government and a functioning judiciary.

If the danger is so clear and imminent, why don't they just put the Act in force permanently because they might "steal" power away on Wednesday at 6pm next week without anyone noticing. A little birdy told me so, so better to be safe than sorry eh?

I wonder if there is a way to have elections if the Act is in effect? Now wouldn't that be convenient.

Ooops, we just slipped into being a military dictatorship and we didn't even notice it happen.

[cdnvic]

I just can't get over how worked up some people get over it (myself included sometimes). You get two or more people fired up to the point of insults and flaming when neither have any power whatsoever to influence things. Hardly worth the stress IMO. I just figure with Thai politics it's best to sit back and watch like it was a TV show. Sure, you can still yell at the screen, but the chances that the characters there will pay any attention to what you say is very slim.

[caf]

Slippery slope, huh? If Thaksin's red thugs take power, the slope will have well slipped.

It is disingenuos to open a poll and then contribute partisan and flaming posts

Never trust pollsters that show bias.

If you had kept quiet I would have voted.

[Ulysses G.]

Bangkok would have been raized to the ground by now if Thaivisa members did have a say in things here.

[mc2]

Slippery slope, huh? If Thaksin's red thugs take power, the slope will have well slipped.

It is disingenuos to open a poll and then contribute partisan and flaming posts

Never trust pollsters that show bias.

If you had kept quiet I would have voted.

(he loves to troll his own poll, does it HEAPS )

[dttk0009]

It's amazing how obsessed people are over red and yellow that they can't even think of an alternative solution anymore. With us or against us, indeed. I suppose there's just too much face to be saved this far down the road.

[rixalex]

It is disingenuos to open a poll and then contribute partisan and flaming posts

Never trust pollsters that show bias.

If you had kept quiet I would have voted.

How about you quote where Jingthing has flamed another member.

Just because he started the poll, doesn't mean he has to forfit his right to give an opinion. It's not as if he somehow has the power to meddle with the results.

If the way the poll is conducted really troubles you so much, why not simply start your own?

[Insight]

Slippery slope, huh? If Thaksin's red thugs take power, the slope will have well slipped.

Let's wait and see. All sides have had their moments over the last 2 years or so.

I hope it goes off on Sunday without anyone having to resort to anything. I would much prefer that this issue was left to the police, and only as an absolute last resort, after all other paths have been exhausted, then the government should choose to put the internal security act into force.

What exactly would they have to do to "take power"? Last time I looked this was a democratic country with a democratically elected government and a functioning judiciary.

If the danger is so clear and imminent, why don't they just put the Act in force permanently because they might "steal" power away on Wednesday at 6pm next week without anyone noticing. A little birdy told me so, so better to be safe than sorry eh?

I wonder if there is a way to have elections if the Act is in effect? Now wouldn't that be convenient.

Ooops, we just slipped into being a military dictatorship and we didn't even notice it happen.

We (me and Mrs Insight) don't. We trust the police's ability to handle this right less than we trust the red's ability to stay peaceful.

During the morning drive to the office the other week we passed some red shirts on the back of a truck around Rama 9 (no doubt on the way to the petition protest). We were in the queue for a while with them in view. They were clearly enjoying a friendly bit of banter with every traffic cop they passed.

There was outrage in the UK at the police's handling of the G20 protesters - that was pretty bad, but imagine the outrage if they had been egging them on!?!

The reds have a reputation and the police have proven themselves to be inept - let the military deal with them.

[Jingthing]

Some points about polling.

This website is not a scientific polling organization. Any polls done here are for discussion purposes only. Also as most users here are foreigners even if the results were accurate they would not be of interest to Thai politicos.

Personally, I realize I am a well known poster and most know I oppose the drive to force Thaksin back to power. Even if I said nothing in a poll thread, regular readers already know that. So I make no claims to objectivity on any poll topic. None. Zero. Bupkis. Got it?

That said, in this case, the structure of the poll itself is neutral. I have done polls in the past where even the poll itself is clearly biased; again, so what? Take it or leave it for what it is.

[Jingthing]

It's amazing how obsessed people are over red and yellow that they can't even think of an alternative solution anymore. With us or against us, indeed. I suppose there's just too much face to be saved this far down the road.

OK. I'll bite. Do you seriously believe Thaksin is a person you could have a good faith negotiation with? If they gave him his money, gave him back his passport, dropped all charges and the conviction in exchange for dropping out of politics, does anyone seriously think he would be satisfied?

I'll answer my own question. Of course not. He would see such total capitulation as WEAKNESS and continue his drive to become dictator of Thailand. He is an ALL or NOTHING kind of guy and we are approaching the end game.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Jingthing

[caf]

It's amazing how obsessed people are over red and yellow that they can't even think of an alternative solution anymore. With us or against us, indeed. I suppose there's just too much face to be saved this far down the road.

OK. I'll bite. Do you seriously believe Thaksin is a person you could have a good faith negotiation with? If they gave him his money, gave him back his passport, dropped all charges and the conviction in exchange for dropping out of politics, does anyone seriously think he would be satisfied?

I'll answer my own question. Of course not. He would see such total capitulation as WEAKNESS and continue his drive to become dictator of Thailand. He is an ALL or NOTHING kind of guy and we are approaching the end game.

I was going to answer your question.

But clearly you have already decided the answer you want.

[dttk0009]

It's amazing how obsessed people are over red and yellow that they can't even think of an alternative solution anymore. With us or against us, indeed. I suppose there's just too much face to be saved this far down the road.

OK. I'll bite. Do you seriously believe Thaksin is a person you could have a good faith negotiation with? If they gave him his money, gave him back his passport, dropped all charges and the conviction in exchange for dropping out of politics, does anyone seriously think he would be satisfied?

I'll answer my own question. Of course not. He would see such total capitulation as WEAKNESS and continue his drive to become dictator of Thailand. He is an ALL or NOTHING kind of guy and we are approaching the end game.

It was my impression that almost all politicians and officials are caught up in a vicious power struggle.

Either way, it appears you missed the message of my post. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone directly, but merely claiming that politics have become very repetitive here. So repetitive that it just seems like we're watching a league of two teams, red and yellow, battle it out over and over with no other contestants. And it seems most people are ok with that. I think for Thailand there is no such thing as 'end game'. Politics here run in cycles, without much revolution or change. Or has anyone noticed an actual change over the last 4 years? I sure haven't. In fact, if I hadn't ever turned on the news in that time, I would have been completely oblivious to the political tennis game happening around me. Thailand now to me feels exactly the same way it did back when Thaksin was around.

[mania]

People who throw Molotov cocktails and attack Asean conferences with world leaders attending and attempt to assassinate PM Abhisit most certainly DO NOT want stability. This isn't romper room. Thaksin is desperate. He will do anything.

Another clue: people who get behind such outrageous tactics as the red shirts are using are most certainly NOT pro-democracy.

You are behind those folks who were shooting randomly at the airport awhile back then? I think they had yellow shirts with no military stopping them? Police either for that matter.

The power you claim Thaksin has comes only from Thai people, That should tell you something.

Your not one of those who cry foul about using force against drug dealers are you? It would be strange to now say use force against Thai working class.

[mc2]

Thailand will never really change/improve/develop until the military and so called "elite" meddlers are expunged from the political system.

That's exactly why Thaksin was booted in 2006 - he started a power shift that threatened the traditional controllers of the country.

Hopefully one day all Thais will stand up and recognize this covert dictatorship for what it is, and seek to replace it with a real and genuine democracy.

[Jingthing]

Hopefully one day all Thais will stand up and recognize this covert dictatorship for what it is, and seek to replace it with a real and genuine democracy.

Thaksin isn't the answer. He is a dictator wanna be.

[ballpoint]

You are behind those folks who were shooting randomly at the airport awhile back then? I think they had yellow shirts with no military stopping them? Police either for that matter.

The power you claim Thaksin has comes only from Thai people, That should tell you something.

Your not one of those who cry foul about using force against drug dealers are you? It would be strange to now say use force against Thai working class.

Yeah, all the bullet holes everywhere in the departure terminal. And the planes that were damaged by gunfire. And all the deaths from random bullets. It's certainly a crime that it wasn't brought to more peoples attention. Wait a minute, maybe it wasn't because it never happened.

Besides which, pointing out that the red shirts are lead by a bunch of thugs, and did throw molotov cocktails, and did kill people, and did send burning buses careering towards soldiers, and did threaten peoples homes, is a reasonable thing to do because it is true. It's not the same thing as saying you support the yellow shirts. The reds paranoia that everyone who points out their, and their great leader's, crimes must be a yellow is worthy of an anti-MaCarthy - better dead than not red! The fixation of seeing yellows under the beds seems to have deranged many of their members, and is, along with Thaksin's fixation on power and money, the major cause of the current instability. Until the red supporters realise that most who oppose them do so because of their proven track record for violence and murder, and not because they are paid up members of the yellow cheer leading team, the situation will unfortunately carry on as is.