Foreigner-funded Land Ownership

[Bill97]

There also seems to be some resentment that Thai spouses receive cash from us that is not taxed in Thailand as income. (this is purely a personal observation based on conversations with various bank officials)

Iain

In fact a lot of Thais receive large amounts of cash which is not taxed in Thailand. Example, they set up a company in Singapore which owns their Thai company. Then through accounting and transfer prices, earn most or all of the profits in Singapore. Those profits are later moved to Thailand tax free in full compliance with Thai tax law.

[cmdream]

There also seems to be some resentment that Thai spouses receive cash from us that is not taxed in Thailand as income. (this is purely a personal observation based on conversations with various bank officials)

Iain

In fact a lot of Thais receive large amounts of cash which is not taxed in Thailand. Example, they set up a company in Singapore which owns their Thai company. Then through accounting and transfer prices, earn most or all of the profits in Singapore. Those profits are later moved to Thailand tax free in full compliance with Thai tax law.

Perhaps this is why things will get interesting for tax dodgers also !

[Bill97]

There also seems to be some resentment that Thai spouses receive cash from us that is not taxed in Thailand as income. (this is purely a personal observation based on conversations with various bank officials)

Iain

In fact a lot of Thais receive large amounts of cash which is not taxed in Thailand. Example, they set up a company in Singapore which owns their Thai company. Then through accounting and transfer prices, earn most or all of the profits in Singapore. Those profits are later moved to Thailand tax free in full compliance with Thai tax law.

Perhaps this is why things will get interesting for tax dodgers also !

You are quite an alarmist. First based on an article in a not very highly regarded newspaper you suggest that many people are going to loose their homes and then you state that there are tax crack downs coming based on what, someone's "personal observation of some resentment" ?

Yeh, and Thais can not have overseas bank accounts either so that is why the tens of thousands of overseas Thais are repeatedly returning to Thailand to get a suitcase full of money to take back to their overseas homes to pay their expenses.

No worries, immigration is going to throw all the foreigners out before the end of the year just like they have in every odd numbered year in the past.

[Thailand]

I have read that the term farang originates from the word "farangset" (Francais > faran-sai), which would make sense since the French were around for a long time in the region (Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam). The Arab connection seems a bit farfetched IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farang

[CaptainNemo]

I have to agree with you, Sassienie. I wish we had a bit more of Thailand's regulations in Canada. New Zealand was wise in it's laws in regards to foreign ownership of land and public access. Certain rich Americans wanted to buy up fishing rights along some famous rivers and were not allowed to do so.

How do you feel then. Ian, about Thais owning large parcels of land abroad, eg London, when we can't here. And can ordinary Thais hold currency in overseas banks. I was told they are not allowed to.

I don't much like that at all; I'd quite happily see a ban on foreigners (and immigrants) owning land in the UK, but we digress...

I thought it was the case that a lucky few well-behaved farang could avail themselves of the gift of a rai once they'd got permanent residency.

I'm not really sure what the point is, rent/leasehold can be had for agreeably low amounts as to render ownership arguably pointless.

Aren't most farang residents staying (apart from have good quality of life) to either build up savings to afford to live in their own country; or to get more spending power with what they already accumulated in their own country (...perhaps doesn't apply to the "traveller/teacher" crowd).

Surely you only get a mortgage to own something pass onto someone (and only if it's not much more expensive than renting); to accumulate a chunk of assets for retirement mostly; and to get the right to "change the wallpaper" etc..., and not be booted out. If you're married to a poo-ying with look-kreung, then it seems to me that you can get all of that, and keep your chunk of asset in another country - in something a bit more protected.

I could understand the point of getting a long cheap mortgage through "employing the wife in a family business", in order to have more rights and options than renting (i.e.: building your own barn the way you like it), as long as it was cheaper than renting...

It seems to me that the Thai Gov is quite happy for farang to buy their Mrs a barn and some rye, otherwise they'd institute and enforce some proper renting rights for foreigners, and that would probably make most farang opt for long-term renting than for getting knee deep in Thai housing shenanigans. I think in Asia in general, politics is often more about a bit of noise and symbology, and nothing really changes that muc - it's taken Japan half a century to oust their old system... a dead mens shoes democracy if ever there was one.

[cmdream]

There also seems to be some resentment that Thai spouses receive cash from us that is not taxed in Thailand as income. (this is purely a personal observation based on conversations with various bank officials)

Iain

In fact a lot of Thais receive large amounts of cash which is not taxed in Thailand. Example, they set up a company in Singapore which owns their Thai company. Then through accounting and transfer prices, earn most or all of the profits in Singapore. Those profits are later moved to Thailand tax free in full compliance with Thai tax law.

Perhaps this is why things will get interesting for tax dodgers also !

You are quite an alarmist. First based on an article in a not very highly regarded newspaper you suggest that many people are going to loose their homes and then you state that there are tax crack downs coming based on what, someone's "personal observation of some resentment" ?

Yeh, and Thais can not have overseas bank accounts either so that is why the tens of thousands of overseas Thais are repeatedly returning to Thailand to get a suitcase full of money to take back to their overseas homes to pay their expenses.

No worries, immigration is going to throw all the foreigners out before the end of the year just like they have in every odd numbered year in the past.

Since playing ostrich is a national mindset it can be contagious. This news story has been reported in other English newsprint for over a month now. The Thai committee set up to investigate transnational corporations found no infringements. My question is why a new law to address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais, with all land purchases by Thais with foreign partners being investigated by Land Department officials and a local farmland protection panel. Just a heads up to any that have their heads in the ground

and lulled into apathy, not an alarmist, this is based on fact. Yes they asked me to leave by Dec 31. 2009 see you at the airport.

[Chunkton]

> How is it you know the Thai legalities in this? Just wondering.

A former military government printed millions of booklets of the new constitution. We read it, before using it as toilet paper.

I agree with your take that t is an attack on the unpatriotic Thai women who marry foreigners.

Personally I found the military constitution a bit rough, but my constitution may not be as fortified.

[doppa]

having described the situation to my thai wife, she immiediatly went onto the thai govt. information page , to obviously check out what the govt. are telling the thais, an apparently it encourages the land office to co operate with a mixed marriage, not to ask questions where the money come from, and also not to force the arm of the couple to pay bribes, but it does say that a prepared document saying that the foreigner understands he does not own the land, but if the couple draw up a document that says all will be split 50/50 in case of seperation, the land office will accept this.

i'm sure theres a bit more to it, and as i suggested it would be useful to see a govt. page reiterating what my wife has read, in english, which if i searched surely there will be.

[elektrified]

having described the situation to my thai wife, she immiediatly went onto the thai govt. information page , to obviously check out what the govt. are telling the thais, an apparently it encourages the land office to co operate with a mixed marriage, not to ask questions where the money come from, and also not to force the arm of the couple to pay bribes, but it does say that a prepared document saying that the foreigner understands he does not own the land, but if the couple draw up a document that says all will be split 50/50 in case of seperation, the land office will accept this.

i'm sure theres a bit more to it, and as i suggested it would be useful to see a govt. page reiterating what my wife has read, in english, which if i searched surely there will be.

Indeed there is "a bit more to it" and the information you reported is old news and not completely accurate. Furthermore, things have changed. I'm sure the shysters are licking their chops at how much money they will make defending farangs who were foolish enough to buy land in a Thai's name against the governments' interpretation of the law.

[JimGant]

were foolish enough to buy land in a Thai's name against the governments' interpretation of the law.

Possibly applicable to a real 'nominee' situation, where an unrelated Thai personage buys land for a foreigner. But, for a married couple -- one of whom is Thai -- this has no reality. In my case, the wife did have enough of her own savings to honestly say she bought the land with her own money. But even if she didn't, as US citizens, married in the US, I can give her unlimited gift amounts that legally become hers under US law. For the Thai government to say otherwise would make for an interesting court case.

I would imagine most Western countries have similar laws on gifting within marriages.

Besides, we know who this law is aimed against -- and it's not us small fry in the bungalows.

[Rob5060]

I know it sounds pretty unromantic but if you got a divorce would that then solve the situation

[cmdream]

Headline in this weeks Chiang Mai News : " Land Grab accusations worsen at Bangkok seminar" if interested spend 25 Baht and read for yourself. I certainly do not want to upset the ostrich here by elaborating. Chok dee.

[tijnebijn]

My wife already bought the ground we live on before we got married ,

so my guess is it will not affect us if they really make this check and go to all

' mixed couples ' homes , which I also doubt will ever happen .

The story goes , that they are against foreigners buying HUGE plots of land

in the name of their wifes or Appointees ones ( especially those ).

That is explicitly against the law indeed , there is no way they can take the homes

from ' Thaiwoman married to foreigners ' with families and all . Would make Thailand seriously

in trouble with international treaties they are in , no I seriously doubt one should interpreted it like that .

Nothing to do with ostrich behaviour , more to do with scaremongering , which has no ground at all .

[tijnebijn]

Headline in this weeks Chiang Mai News : " Land Grab accusations worsen at Bangkok seminar" if interested spend 25 Baht and read for yourself. I certainly do not want to upset the ostrich here by elaborating. Chok dee.

Your not allowed to promote ones business on Thaivisa , aren't you the one who told here to buy

this overpriced paper before , cause you have some interest in it ?

Many members here have much more information available then that written paper ever could give to the public .

[cmdream]

Headline in this weeks Chiang Mai News : " Land Grab accusations worsen at Bangkok seminar" if interested spend 25 Baht and read for yourself. I certainly do not want to upset the ostrich here by elaborating. Chok dee.

Your not allowed to promote ones business on Thaivisa , aren't you the one who told here to buy

this overpriced paper before , cause you have some interest in it ?

Many members here have much more information available then that written paper ever could give to the public .

Wrong again, no I am not the one, better put your head back in the sand or bottle, up to you.

[CaptainNemo]

I wonder whether you can put land in trust for your dual nationality children (if you've got any, and your country is ok with it etc...)?

Edited September 3, 2009 by CaptainNemo

[elektrified]

I wonder whether you can put land in trust for your dual nationality children (if you've got any, and your country is ok with it etc...)?

How can you put something in trust that you don't own? Foreigners can't own land in Thailand, so how could one's own country be "OK with it"?

[cmsally]

Thailand has no trust laws.

I believe you can put your childrens names on the land title in addition to spouse.

[Bill97]

Thailand has no trust laws.

I believe you can put your childrens names on the land title in addition to spouse.

Correct, no trust laws in Thailand.

Also correct, you can put your children's names on a land title deed if they have Thai citizenship but probably best not to mention that they are dual citizens if that is the case.

I agree with tijnebin when he wrote "my guess is it will not affect us if they really make this check and go to all ' mixed couples ' homes , which I also doubt will ever happen ."

If this were such a big deal I expect it would be in hot discussion on the Real Estate Forum which there was not when I checked it a few days ago, yes it is mentioned but not much interest.

The incorrect information on this thread is sad with posts stating that foreigners have purchased land in their spouse's names when the that is just not possible. Land purchased in a spouse's name is land that belongs to the spouse period. Using nominees is not legal. Yes it is done but there have been situations where the nominees have ended up with the property or company and others where courts found the nominee structure to be invalid. The problems of using nominees are real.

[elektrified]

Thailand has no trust laws.

I believe you can put your childrens names on the land title in addition to spouse.

If this were such a big deal I expect it would be in hot discussion on the Real Estate Forum which there was not when I checked it a few days ago, yes it is mentioned but not much interest.

It's been debated ad nauseum in the Real Estate forum. Old news at this point.

[Naam]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

and what, pray tell, makes you associate "the bill will address..." with "land grab"? did you poke your nose, examined the result which was "land grab" plus "tell the guys to cover their asses"? or is it just the usual negative farang attitude towards anything related to Thailand and Farangs which is presented in this forum a dozen times daily?

[CaptHaddock]

In my case, the wife did have enough of her own savings to honestly say she bought the land with her own money. But even if she didn't, as US citizens, married in the US, I can give her unlimited gift amounts that legally become hers under US law. For the Thai government to say otherwise would make for an interesting court case.

Hard to know where to begin with the misconceptions here. US tax law governs liability to US taxes, not to those of any other country. Your gift to your wife is indeed exempt from US income taxes. If your gift to your Thai wife takes place in Thailand then its liability to Thai taxes depends on the laws of Thailand, whatever those may be, and not those of the US or any other country.

[Arkady]

The current efforts that I see going on to me represent a move back to the Bad Old Days: Any Thai woman who wants to own land and who happens to be married to a foreigner will now have to fight for her right to own property, and demonstrate how she obtained the money. This INCLUDES cases where the Thai woman actually does have money herself, or for example sells family land to purchase another plot: it will now all be under government/legal scrutiny because of the person she chose to marry.

My personal situation is pretty similar to the above, except that we had the good sense not to register any marriage exactly for the reason that we didn't trust the Thai government to not go back on the 1997 Constitution which cemented equal rights for Thai women. Since then we've of course seen that constitution shredded in a military coup, and in return got something doctored to cater to particular powers-that-be. And they might just get away with putting extra scrutiny on business deals by women, who may have to end up proving that the're not married to a foreigner and/or demonstrate where the money came from.

I think you are right in that there is a political undercurrent trying to revert back to the pre-1999 status, whereby ministerial regulations prevented Thai women married to foreigners and their children from owning land. However, I am not sure how they plan to achieve this without contravening the constitution which has the same anti gender discrimination wording as the 1997 Constitution. I suspect that they are going to have to focus on the agricultural aspect and purchases of agricultural land over a certain size. Even so, I see legal complications in preventing a Thai woman from accepting a gift from her husband which is tax free as conjugal property and using it to purchase as much land as she likes. In addition, they could no longer do this nowadays without applying the same law to Thai men married to foreign women and this might seriously inconvenience some Thai big shots married to foreigners. Even though there is a fast track for foreign women married to Thais to get Thai citizenship, it still takes about three years and some foreign woman don't want Thai nationality because it might oblige them to renounce their original nationality.

Whatever they do, it is unlikely that the Land Dept would want the job of investigating all purchases by Thais married to foreigners. Therefore I think the worst case would be some sort of restriction on agricultural land over a certain size, involving investigation of the wife's source of funds. To achieve this they would have to try to make it a big national security issue which would be hard to argue in the case of Thai wives, since after all they are in fact.....er Thai. Also I doubt that anything would happen to existing holdings which were legally purchased with both partners signing the affidavit at the Land Office. At least this is planned as statutory legislation before parliament which will give women's groups a chance to protest about it, rather than a sneaky amendment to Interior Ministry regulations.

I don't understand the proposed concept of immediately revoking the sale and selling the land, since there is already a procedure under the Land Code that involves the owner being given 6-12 months to sell the land. So why would the Agricultural Ministry try to usurp the Land Dept's authority and give itself a lot of unnecessary trouble as well?

Kwai, I am not sure what advantage you have derived from not registering your marriage in this respect. It is a criminal offence for both partners, if a Thai who cohabits with a foreigner purchases land without disclosing her common law marriage with a foreigner and without both partners signing the required affidavit at the Land Dept. Indeed, before 1999 it was a criminal offence for a Thai woman to buy land at all, if she had a foreign partner whether the marriage was registered or not. You are both in a much stronger legal position, if you have disclosed and signed the affidavit, than if you have tried to conceal your relationship.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Arkady

[cmdream]

Chiang Mai Mail August 25, 2009, front page article. A law is pending in the Thai legislature about Farangs who bought land in their Thai wife's name. The bill, at present in draft form, will be put before the cabinet next month and is intended to become law by the end of this year. The bill will address land ownership by foreigners married to Thais. Cover your ass guys, looks like a land grab is on its way.

and what, pray tell, makes you associate "the bill will address..." with "land grab"? did you poke your nose, examined the result which was "land grab" plus "tell the guys to cover their asses"? or is it just the usual negative farang attitude towards anything related to Thailand and Farangs which is presented in this forum a dozen times daily?

Its obvious some are too cheap charly to part with 25 B. Sept 1, Page 3 headline in CMN .

Foreigner "Land-Grab" accusations worsen at Bangkok seminar. Look before you leap pal.