How Many Of Thailand's Prime Ministers Were/are Of Chinese Decent?

[Heng]

An interesting thread.

The Thai concept of live today and not worry about tomorrow that one can find when in Thailand is contradictory to the usual Chinese concept of saving your cash.

Going out and blowing all your cash would be alien to many Chinese.

Of course it's a generalization, but I assume 'Ethnic Chinese' Thais manage to save a bit more than the 'Thais'?

It's hard to blame them. Their rivers were always teeming with fish, and just about everything that is green and grows is edible. Difficult for anyone not to develop a lotus eater mentality over time. Fortunately (or not) it's much more dog eat dog nowadays so it's easier to maintain a competitive edge.

It's probably a combination of many things, but yeah being frugal (until you can afford not to be) and generally maintaining a longer planned event horizon are probably at the fore though.

[Heng]

Are you suggesting that those at the top of society whether it be in Thailand or elsewhere DON'T use their influence to ensure THEIR children have the best opportunities, that THEIR companies don't get the government contracts? Give me a break...

They do exactly that (of course, without the gov't contracts) at the middle area, and bottom end of society as well. Over generations, that means a rise to the top or at least forward momentum.

I've never had a shot at a gov't contract, my kids likely won't either, but perhaps my grandkids. When one's family line finally starts thinking/working/planning like that, you have a chance to run parallel and finally compete.

i've farmed out government contracts, and I've got a good chance of winning at least two this year. Got nothing to do with my influence. Got heaps to do with my experience...and perhaps due to my lack of insight into Thai culture, as someone remarked.

Of course. I was never of the opinion that one could only get contracts if connected, although of course generally that is the trend. Part of my point was that we've always done fairly well without a leg up. The other thing is that we don't have anything to offer the gov't at the moment. It's silly to think that the majority of Thai Chinese are somehow all connected and getting a piece of the action.

The closest thing we have to a concession are our pawn licenses, but we got those back in the day before they decided that they would one day no longer hand them out, and it was just a matter of waiting in line and filling out a few forms. Total cost was probably less than a hundred Baht.

[robert10]

since this topic is about PM's with Chinese blood I have to say that the mainland Chinese are a lot more intelligent since high education and studies at university studies are a high priority in Beijing.

Absurd ... and racist.

There have been some people here who've made the assertion that the Chinese have become successful not only in Thailand, but the world over and the reason being given is that they are (without debate) more honest, "hard working" people than most. I challenge this assumption. It is not a fact, but rather a biased opinion and broad overgeneralization. Moreover, if you read the links I posted, you'll see exactly how the Chinese have come into power in Thailand through Triads and illicit or criminal activities as well as nepotism and favoritism.

EA,

Strange you are calling somebody racist. Are your above comments non-racial? Your repeated posts "I'm seeing a pattern..." are nothing but poorly disguised attempts to tease out views based on ethnicity.

As for that link on triads, every society has its underbelly, and to generalise an entire people based on this, says more about you than anything else.

May all beings dwell in peace

[Heng]

How long would they have to be in Thailand before they are considered Thai and not Chinese??

Are we talking about ethnicity or nationality?

They could be chinese ethnically but have no connections with China (Nation) at all, so they are Thai. Or will they always be considered outsiders?

Hijacking this part: The reason I ask is that ethnically I am chinese (with a few different bits thrown in) but the family have been in North America since the railroad building days. So what am I? I have always wondered.....

Yeah, as mentioned, it's totally up to you. And yes, it's no different than mentioning that you're an Irish American, Italian American, Chinese American (huaren cong Mei Guo lai), etc. Culturally/traditionally speaking though China isn't just a place in Asia (you take China with you wherever you go, as it's 'the Middle Kingdom' and 'all under heaven'), but don't tell the outsiders that, they might freak out more than some of them apparently already are.

[caf]

since this topic is about PM's with Chinese blood I have to say that the mainland Chinese are a lot more intelligent since high education and studies at university studies are a high priority in Beijing.

Absurd ... and racist.

Laopo is stating his exprience, ( and i happen to agree because of the education opportunities in the wto countries) but it is not racist.

[LaoPo]

since this topic is about PM's with Chinese blood I have to say that the mainland Chinese are a lot more intelligent since high education and studies at university studies are a high priority in Beijing.

Absurd ... and racist.

IF you quote, please quote correctly, I wrote:

"The change in Thailand has to come from WITHIN but I'm afraid it will take a long time and since this topic is about PM's with Chinese blood I have to say that the mainland Chinese are a lot more intelligent since high education and studies at university studies are a high priority in Beijing."

It's obvious that I meant the Chinese government in respect to their decisions to give education a PRIORITY in their country rather than the Thai government did and implemented which Thai/Thai or Thai-Chinese PM's and their governments are/were ruling Thailand.....

You highlighted a few words from my sentence in bold and if one read those words in bold one could indeed read that I wrote that Chinese are a lot more intelligent, but I didn't say the Chinese (population) were more intelligent.

You took my words out of context and that's not very chique.

Looking for nitpicking ?

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

....

Are there 292.000 students, graduating in Thailand, per year ?

I don't know.

LaoPo

Probably closer to 400,000 graduate each year from Thai universities. Some people think this is too many, China is probably going to have the same problem.

Graduates flood labour market: The unsolvable problems

TH

Some notes to this Thaihome, since I read that link also and I have some doubts if the content could be correct:

"In 2007, the Education Council estimated that the number of new students enrolled in bachelors programs between 2007 and 2016 will be approximately 500,000 each year,...."

500.000 Bachelor degrees with graduated students in Thailand ? That's a huge number.

In another link I found a number of 139.000 Graduate Bachelor students in 2003 (studying; not sure if they Graduated or not); (unfortunately that section can't be copied but I give you the link here:

http://www.gfme.org/global_guide/pdf/245-250%20Thailand.pdf look for page 4 under: STUDENTS.

I doubt if the number of 139.000 graduate students in 2003 increased to 500.000 in 2008/09 ?

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

MushrOOm--you are who you decide you are.

Let's try to keep blatantly racist drivel to a minimum. The Chinese Triads, the Italian Mafia, the Japanese Yaksuki (or whatever they are called), have some bad apples and they do manage to get around.

The topic is interesting and we don't want to have to close it down.

Scott: I reread and reread his last posts but Mushr00m didn't say or write anything that could fit your words "blatantly racist drivel"; I am confused and I think you meant someone else ?

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

There have been some people here who’ve made the assertion that the Chinese have become successful not only in Thailand, but the world over and the reason being given is that they are (without debate) more honest, “hard working” people than most.

I challenge this assumption.

It is not a fact, but rather a biased opinion and broad overgeneralization.

Moreover, if you read the links I posted, you’ll see exactly how the Chinese have come into power in Thailand through Triads and illicit or criminal activities as well as nepotism and favoritism.

Finally you opened your own agenda for which I've been asking since you opened this topic.

The way you describe "the Chinese" is appalling because the way you write about them is pure generalization, as if all 9 million (Thai) Chinese came into power in Thailand through triads and illicit criminal activities.

Maybe chose your words more carefully EffectiveAnger?

LaoPo

[EffectiveAnger]

"In recent times, "democracy" is a word that has been thrown around more often than a ping pong ball in Patpong - and suffers about the same level of degradation.

From words in the pubs to letters in Postbag, to the reports by foreign correspondents and commentaries by the esteemed editors of various prestigious western media, everyone has an opinion on what democracy is, and that it either does not exist in Thailand, or has been battered and abused into something quite undemocratic.

From the observations of many non-Thais, opinions have ranged anywhere from disbelief to disdain and downright disgust at what is going on with the democracy of this Kingdom. With harsh words and brutal assaults, slamming and insulting the Kingdom, and with it, my fellow countrymen.

Well, allow me to address our foreign critics and help form an understanding of how we got into this mess. Though by all means, this observation is one man's humble opinion offered up to be considered, discussed and debated; nothing less, nothing more.

In the West, democracy is a tradition of over 2,000 years old, although it had taken a nap for centuries before it was rediscovered. One may trace the origin of modern democracy to the French Revolution (1782), the American Revolution (1776), or even the signing of the Magna Carta (1215). But no matter which event one would like to attribute modern democracy to, it is unarguable that Western democracy has been several centuries in the making and written by numerous conflicts and much bloodshed.

So if the West has gone through centuries of mistakes, of trials and tribulations, to arrive at a healthy, though imperfect system of modern democracy, why can't Thailand embrace the finished product, packaged with a beautiful ribbon? Well, it's not that we don't want to.

To understand where we are now, one must look at the historical evolution of Thailand since the conversion to constitutional monarchy in 1932.

From our first prime minister, Praya Manopakorn Nititada, to our latest, Somchai Wongsawat, in the 76 years since there have been 36 prime ministers, most of whom were "appointees", by the military or otherwise.

There were many reasons behind these "appointees", military or otherwise, not least of which was the influence of the superpowers and their Cold War chess match. Like the majority of the Third World, we were but a pawn served up on a platter with a side order of freedom fries by our leaders, to be exploited in the name of democracy against the rising tides of communism. Never mind the fact that we ourselves were ruled by military dictators for much of that time.

It wasn't until 1988 when we sustained a succession of "elected" leaders, starting with the government of General Chartchai Chunhawan.

Only for 20 years had the electoral process been able to sustain breathing room in this Kingdom, minus the hiccups in Black May 1992 and the 2006 coup. Is the Thai democracy young and fragile? It's a sickly, crying toddler in an incubator. So why, I ask you, would anyone look at an infant in an incubator with disdain and disgust?

Through much of our history in the 20th century, the overwhelming majority of the Thai population were peasant farmers, the backbone of the Kingdom, who wouldn't know a democracy from a tamagochi. How could they? With little to no education, their primary concerns were simply feeding and clothing their children? Democratic ideals are the luxury of the "haves", the "have nots" hold graver concerns. Is that so unbelievable? So disdainful? So disgusting?

It was only the economic boom of the late 1980s and 1990s, the advances in communication technology and globalisation, that saw the burgeoning middle class. Western education, or education period, was no longer the privilege of the elites.

Be that as it may, not unlike the period of Industrial Revolution in the West, the people were much more infatuated with the newfound riches than the ideals of democracy. Human nature: a pile of cash on the table versus some lofty ideal, which would the average Somchai and Somying one generation removed from the rice field (or the villages of Communist China) choose? Is that so disdainful, so disgusting, so unbelievable?

The infant may be wearing Gucci and the incubator may be the latest Mercedes model, but the fact is, in the 1990s Thailand's democracy was still just an infant in the incubator. As such, we were easily exploited by corrupt leaders, thrifty merchants (local and foreign) and, of course, our own greed. That is disdainful and disgusting, but which country has never gone through such a period? Like puberty, it isn't pretty, but it's a natural process of evolution.

With the Asian financial crisis of 1997, we woke up and realised that we simply exchanged "appointees", military or otherwise, for opportunistic thugs and gangsters, who knew about running a country and economy as much as we Thais know how to queue up in orderly fashion to board/deboard the Sky Train. They simply sneaked into office while the educated middle class were too busy having a bubble bath.

Then it happened. Clouds parted, Beethoven's Symphony No 3 echoed out of nowhere, the birds and the bees chanted, "hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah"! For the messiah had arrived! He was not a general, nor a gangster. He was a businessman who built a telecommunication empire with his own hands.

For a society that had embraced capitalism for only a little over a decade, we were googoo and gaagaa over him like he was some K-pop heartthrob. For the first time in the history of Thailand, the rich, the poor and those in between agreed on one thing: Thaksin Shinawatra was our man.

Chuan Leekpai was solid, but he was a plain housewife. This new guy was Paris Hilton on steroids. Is it so unbelievable, so disdainful, so disgusting? Infant in an incubator, we were lost lambs, confused and desperate, then came our shepherd, our saviour, all glittery in golden lights.

And well, you know the rest of the story.

Here we are in 2008. Duped and deceived, scarred and full of scorn. Conflict in all levels of society. Flocking to the banner of the PAD are simply people who have had enough. Sure, the leaders of the PAD are questionable. Sure, many of the PAD's tactics are unsavoury. But allow me to speak for the average Thai person - rich, middle and poor - we marched simply because we have had enough.

Similar to Black May 1992. Then we marched because we wanted no more military dictatorship, but now we march because we want no more greedy money merchants and their thuggish cronies.

Is this undermining democracy? There is no democracy to undermine. We never had it. Democracy isn't just about going to the poll and voting. Democracy isn't about smiling as you are getting screwed over once again. That may be fine for countries with healthy, but imperfect democracy. But here, in this corner of the Third World, we are tired of taking it lying down and are simply saying enough is enough.

They don't hand out democracy at the local mom and pop store, and it isn't on sale at Central or Paragon. One must fight for it.

It's an ugly fight. But is there such a thing as a pretty fight? Definitely, there isn't anything democratic about a fight, just ask the Coalition of the Willing. At least we avoid bloodshed as best we can. Granted, a lot of us aren't even sure what we're fighting for, a lot of us are simply venting frustrations and anger, but at least we're conscious and alive enough to stand up and fight.

Certainly there are and will be mistakes to overcome, trials and tribulations to triumph over in the road ahead. As I wrote in my first commentary on Sept 14, we Thais also have to look at ourselves and start the change with ourselves, not just point fingers at our corrupt leaders.

Is it so unbelievable, disdainful, disgusting? For those who are understanding, we thank you. For those who are not, please take no offence. You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country."

http://www.ubradio.net/news?i=486

This was written from a Thai national. I agree with him on all accounts, especially the points highlighted and underlined. I disagree with insults towards Thais regarding them being lazy and therefore 'allowing' the so-called 'hard working' Thai-Chinese to rule the country. This prejudice seems to be from the Farang point of view and I think it's insulting as well as completely baseless. The Thai people (as he pointed out) have been under military dictatorship forever. This is what they know. Democracy is new, very new. And what we have in this country is a chess game of cold war East against West with primarily Thai Chinese who take center stage and fight amongst themselves just as they have done in other conflicts and wars both here and in China. Thais see themselves as 'pawns' in all of this. They are angry, fighting and lost. They feel the corruption. They feel cheated! And everyone seems to be in agreement that these competing political leaders are not only corrupt and distrusted, but also something they feel almost powerless to stop.

The one pattern I'm seeing is the warring factions between East and West where there is a phenomena of rival upon rival (specifically Thai Chinese rivals) who have been forced to take sides. We like to think that the cold war is over, but I also challenge that assumption and assert that it's evolved into a new modern era of East v. West and the terms are still yet to be defined. Regardless, the West has found their protege leaders here and so has the East. When things get too messy, the military steps in and takes back the country again.

The other pattern I'm seeing has to do with the elite (in this case Thai Chinese) who come to S.E. Asia and work together by forming societies with rules that are as ancient as China itself. And by doing so, they pull their resources and dominate the communities and locals around them. Assimilation is not always their goal; the appearance of one can be deceiving (i.e. speaking the local language). Their respective Thai Chinese (i.e. Hakka, Chon Hua, Fujian, Hainan, Teochew) societies are secret and restrictive. They continuously meet with dignitaries from China. And they will openly forbid their children to marry outside of their race or even their own root ethnic identity.

[EffectiveAnger]

Back to my original question now, I've started to make a list from last to first and now arranged from first to last. Here's is the start of it so far:

1. Phraya Manopakorn Nititada born Kon Hutasingha (28 June 1932 to 21 June 1933)

Ethnicity: Appears to be Chinese, but unknown

Political Party: none

Political Stance: Anti Communist, pro Western

Education: Studied in England.

Term ended with: 1933 coup d'état thrown into exile until death

2. General Phot Phahonyothin (21 June 1933 to 16 December 1938)

Ethnicity: Teochew Chinese father and a Thai mother

Political Party: Military

Political Stance: unclear

Education: Studied in Germany and Denmark.

Term ended with:

3. Field Marshal Plaek Pibulsonggram (16 December 1938 to 1 August 1944)

Ethnicity: part Chinese

Political Party: Military

Political Stance: very anti-communist

Education: Studied in France

Term ended with:

4. Major Luang Khuang Abhaiwongse (1 August 1944 to 31 August 1945)

Ethnicity: unknown

Political Party: Military

Political Stance:

Education: Studied in France

Term ended with:

5. Tawee Boonyaket (31 August 1945 to 17 September 1945) elected

Ethnicity:

Political Party: None,

Political Stance:

Education: Studied in England and France

Term ended with: Resignation

6. M.R. Seni Pramoj (17 September 1945 to 31 January 1946)

Ethnicity: A member of the Thai royal family

Political Party: Free Thai

Political Stance: Anti-Japanese, at odds with Field Marshal Plaek Phibunsongkhram

Education: Studied in England

Term ended with: Resignation

7. Major Khuang Abhaiwongse

Ethnicity: unknown

Political Party: Military

Political Stance:

Education: Studied in France

Term ended with:

So if you think you can fill in the blanks, feel free to do so. If you say "Thai" for Ethnicity, you have to explain what you mean by that as the term "Thai" was invented by a certain prime minister in his push for nationalism on the Western model.

[LaoPo]

For someone who's a member for less than 3 weeks you have quite an anti-Chinese and/or Thai-Chinese agenda, now surfacing more clearly.

I wonder if you've ever been to China or if you've ever met any Thai-Chinese people, at their homes, in business or elsewhere.

But in the meantime you are now entering very slippery ice because:

IF you discuss Thai-Chinese PM's or Thai-Chinese in general in Thailand you will end up in bumping into the Royal Family of Thailand, which you already did by mentioning PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, the 6th Thai PM, and acting three times as Thailand's Prime Minister, member of the Thai Royal Family and a descendant of King Rama II. *

I don't know if you realized but discussions about Royalty is not allowed on Thaivisa.

When you became a member you agreed:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation and comments of a political nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

* PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, acting three times as Thailand's PM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seni_Pramoj

LaoPo

[littlebigboss]

You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country."

http://www.ubradio.net/news?i=486

This was written from a Thai national. I agree with him on all accounts, especially the points highlighted and underlined. I disagree with insults towards Thais regarding them being lazy and therefore 'allowing' the so-called 'hard working' Thai-Chinese to rule the country. This prejudice seems to be from the Farang point of view and I think it's insulting as well as completely baseless. The Thai people (as he pointed out) ....

I read two time this article and you're the only one making a difference between what you persist calling "Thai Chinese" and "Thai". As far as the author is concerned, there is only "Thais"! Your tentative to misuse this article to serve your racist theory is abject !

Furthermore, as the author reminds us, we are guest in this country, we are not here to stir racial hatred, especially when it doesn't exist. If you want to give foreigners a bad name, please go ahead, as if we really needed it ...

I already shown this thread to some Thai friends and colleagues here and they don't like it, actually some were even pretty upset. Remember we are guest here.

[LaoPo]

You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country."

http://www.ubradio.net/news?i=486

This was written from a Thai national. I agree with him on all accounts, especially the points highlighted and underlined. I disagree with insults towards Thais regarding them being lazy and therefore 'allowing' the so-called 'hard working' Thai-Chinese to rule the country. This prejudice seems to be from the Farang point of view and I think it's insulting as well as completely baseless. The Thai people (as he pointed out) ....

I read two time this article and you're the only one making a difference between what you persist calling "Thai Chinese" and "Thai". As far as the author is concerned, there is only "Thais"! Your tentative to misuse this article to serve your racist theory is abject !

Furthermore, as the author reminds us, we are guest in this country, we are not here to stir racial hatred, especially when it doesn't exist. If you want to give foreigners a bad name, please go ahead, as if we really needed it ...

I already shown this thread to some Thai friends and colleagues here and they don't like it, actually some were even pretty upset. Remember we are guest here.

Chapeau! Couldn't have said it better.

LaoPo

[Bukseeda]

You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country."

http://www.ubradio.net/news?i=486

This was written from a Thai national. I agree with him on all accounts, especially the points highlighted and underlined. I disagree with insults towards Thais regarding them being lazy and therefore 'allowing' the so-called 'hard working' Thai-Chinese to rule the country. This prejudice seems to be from the Farang point of view and I think it's insulting as well as completely baseless. The Thai people (as he pointed out) ....

I read two time this article and you're the only one making a difference between what you persist calling "Thai Chinese" and "Thai". As far as the author is concerned, there is only "Thais"! Your tentative to misuse this article to serve your racist theory is abject !

Furthermore, as the author reminds us, we are guest in this country, we are not here to stir racial hatred, especially when it doesn't exist. If you want to give foreigners a bad name, please go ahead, as if we really needed it ...

I already shown this thread to some Thai friends and colleagues here and they don't like it, actually some were even pretty upset. Remember we are guest here.

Why would you deliberately try to upset people?

My own fiancee comes from a Thai-Chinese family. There was a picture in the nation yesterday (on the website) captioned "a thai-chinese woman buys duck for...".

Whilst I don't doubt there are racist people within this forum, the vast majority are trying to engage in intelligent discussion and it doesn't help with people throwing the "you're a racist" accusation around every time someone disagrees with them.

And as for someone going on about forum rules when all a guy does is list prime ministers demonstrates, in my opinion, that he's unable to come up with a constructive argument. Absolutely pathetic.

And before anyone assumes i'm on any particular side - I'm not. In fact, I'm completely bemused and disappointed as to how this discussion has turned into mud-slinging, name-calling, and threats. Those who are responsible know exactly who they are and should be ashamed of themselves.

[EffectiveAnger]

I agree Bukseeda and it's really too bad that it came down to this. People, if you don't like the subject, you are not forced to read or comment. Just find another thread. It's that simple. There's no need to fight and keep posting diatribe over and over again.

Edited September 4, 2009 by EffectiveAnger

[LaoPo]

Why would you deliberately try to upset people?

My own fiancee comes from a Thai-Chinese family. There was a picture in the nation yesterday (on the website) captioned "a thai-chinese woman buys duck for...".

Whilst I don't doubt there are racist people within this forum, the vast majority are trying to engage in intelligent discussion and it doesn't help with people throwing the "you're a racist" accusation around every time someone disagrees with them.

And as for someone going on about forum rules when all a guy does is list prime ministers demonstrates, in my opinion, that he's unable to come up with a constructive argument. Absolutely pathetic.

And before anyone assumes i'm on any particular side - I'm not. In fact, I'm completely bemused and disappointed as to how this discussion has turned into mud-slinging, name-calling, and threats. Those who are responsible know exactly who they are and should be ashamed of themselves.

OP:

"The other pattern I'm seeing has to do with the elite (in this case Thai Chinese) who come to S.E. Asia and work together by forming societies with rules that are as ancient as China itself. And by doing so, they pull their resources and dominate the communities and locals around them. Assimilation is not always their goal; the appearance of one can be deceiving (i.e. speaking the local language). Their respective Thai Chinese (i.e. Hakka, Chon Hua, Fujian, Hainan, Teochew) societies are secret and restrictive. They continuously meet with dignitaries from China. And they will openly forbid their children to marry outside of their race or even their own root ethnic identity."

LaoPo

[CaptainNemo]

Actually you ought to research your Siamese history concerning the influence of Mon people (without wishing to get specific for obvious reasons).

Why on earth are you persisting in lecturing people about the rules about discussing something that you're discussing yourself?

(...and being extraordinarily pedantic and defensive in the process).

Frankly, this has been one of the weirdest, most meandering, and unintelligible threads I've seen in a long while.

I got eye ache trying to work out what it was supposed to be about, the topic changed so many times.

I think the jist of it is this:

"Chinese immigrants dominate Thai politics and culture to a disproportionate extent, is this a bad thing? discuss!"

The insinuation being that the Chinese culture of guanxi (connection), is corruption and nepotism is dressed up as a etiquette and cultural nicety; and of course, I have heard Japanese call them "the jews of asia" etc... and indigenous Thais and other asians regard them with strong antipathy along similar lines.

Some of us can easily spot the difference between different ethnic groups in Asia just by facial phenotypes, and Chinese-Thais do look distinct from indigenous Thais and tribal-Khmer-Thais, and Mons and Hmongs, and Malays and Karens and Padaungs etc...; and do stand out with their exceptionally long names... but there are also many Thais who profess to be Chinese, much in the way Americans claim to be Irish (e.g.: Muhammed Ali, recently), but aren't really.

I don't see many signs of familiarity with history of the Tai-Kadai speaking indigenous groups in southern China... the Zhuang (their numbers appear on RMB notes); the Nung; Shan; Tay, and Kam-Sui of Hainan etc... It's not as simple as "the Thais bobbed down for Tea in Chen-La, and booted the Khmers out and nicked their land, and 'cos they lived in [what is currently] China, they are Chinese just like Bruce Lee"... more to point, what is the point of this out of interest?

There are also other hidden agendas like the way Taksin exploits Thai history in a BNP style popular campaign to rally the rural poor against the urban Jaek, and fight proxy turf wars with the growing Euro-Thai population (our own look-khreung), and the possibility of a "farang PM"... imagine that for an Obama moment!

Who knows, someone with the right family tree might pull it off: //th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8%88%E0%B8%B8%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%88%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A3_%E0%B8%88%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%A9%E0%B9%8C

That might be more interesting that a trainspotter-like discussion about the past.

There are lots of hidden agendas here. There might even be an interesting discussion here, if someone could establish, get to, or stick to the point!

Edited September 4, 2009 by cdnvic
removed deleted quote

[ferd54]

Just as a sidenote: Coincidentally there was a documentary on China's State-run broadcaster CCTV last night about King Taskin of Siam. His father was from Swatow and the show says the reason so many Teochui went on to Thailand is because the king ecouraged and supported it.

"But sadly he passed away," the show said without providing details. The show said he is considered to be the only Chinese who became king of another country and is the only foreign king with a memorial tomb in China. It showed busloads of Thais visiting the site; they were called "Thai-based Chinese".

[robert10]

I think the jist of it is this:

"Chinese immigrants dominate Thai politics and culture to a disproportionate extent, is this a bad thing? discuss!"

The way some of these posts has been going, I thought it is more like:

"Chinese immigrants dominate Thai politics and culture totally. This is a bad thing and I will tell you why!"

Its quite a yawn how some old-fashioned bigotry exhibited here is being passed off as intelligent, impartial observations and analysis Who are these farangs kidding ?

[losworld]

Very interesting but not at all surprising. Good thing the farang is around to take the heat when things get rough.

[losworld]

This thread might be construed as not relevant, not interesting, dangerous, and is done so by some members.

However, as stated, 15% of the Thai population is considered to being of Chinese descent.

Which means that the Chinese ARE indeed a minority in Thailand, the other 85%, whoever they are, consider themselves to be real 100% Thai.

It has happened in a lot of other countries in Asia (Indonesia, Malaysia, and Burma at the moment) that on a certain point in time the "original" population did not accept the predominance of the Chinese in business, ownership, politics and so on.

The idea of the Chinese bringing jobs, business, money to the country was also heard in the countries where the Chinese were "checked" before the "checking".

Same what you hear here in Thailand and in this thread: they bring jobs, money, business.........

Even so, there might come a point the "original" population wants a bigger share of the pie, don't want to be inferior, or whatever reason may be cooked up by those who feel that it is maybe time for some realignement of business.

So maybe this thread is interesting and relevant.

My fiancee's father changed their Chinese surname to a Thai one back in teh seventies because as a recent law graduate it was easier to get work with a Thai surname back then. I think it is testament to how well the Chinese have managed to integrate into Thai society that there were no issues in Thailand after the 1997 Asian economic crisis. In other Asian countries such as Malaysia, the Chinese were often vilified.

They just haven't figured it out yet. If the Malaysians and Indonesians were smart they'd let more farangs in so they'd have someone to blame.

[Heng]

You know what the indigenous Thais need? They need a good balanced breakfast. I know in our (yes, Thai Chinese) household, there are several options everyday: Thai and continental and no one goes to school or starts work without a proper breakfast. The office staff also have access to a breakfast buffet, but these folks (before senior staff started pushing them to eat better) usually opted for the most unhealthy of choices (coffee and a piece of bread for example... or sugar donuts and condensed milk) or not eating at all. As for Thai-Thai households, you'd be surprised how many parents aren't even around when the kids go off to school, and how many don't prepare proper meals in the morning. Evening meals are typically just as bad, but overall probably more of a detriment to health (I don't know what the %'s are but look how many people buy something in a plastic bag to eat for dinner) than work and study.

Don't worry about who is prime minister, you're likely so far removed from that social level that there's nothing you can do about it. If you want to help the indigenous locals, you have to start at the bottom or lower middle of society here. Help them eat better (and perhaps drink a little less), learn to think on a longer time horizon, push them to work and study harder, to be more creative, play the lottery a little less when they can't afford it, help them with basic sanitation (it took the Thai Chinese showing up to help set up a decent system of collecting dead bodies and disposing of them properly), etc.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Heng

[samran]

Are you suggesting that those at the top of society whether it be in Thailand or elsewhere DON'T use their influence to ensure THEIR children have the best opportunities, that THEIR companies don't get the government contracts? Give me a break...

They do exactly that (of course, without the gov't contracts) at the middle area, and bottom end of society as well. Over generations, that means a rise to the top or at least forward momentum.

I've never had a shot at a gov't contract, my kids likely won't either, but perhaps my grandkids. When one's family line finally starts thinking/working/planning like that, you have a chance to run parallel and finally compete.

i've farmed out government contracts, and I've got a good chance of winning at least two this year. Got nothing to do with my influence. Got heaps to do with my experience...and perhaps due to my lack of insight into Thai culture, as someone remarked.

Of course. I was never of the opinion that one could only get contracts if connected, although of course generally that is the trend. Part of my point was that we've always done fairly well without a leg up. The other thing is that we don't have anything to offer the gov't at the moment. It's silly to think that the majority of Thai Chinese are somehow all connected and getting a piece of the action.

The closest thing we have to a concession are our pawn licenses, but we got those back in the day before they decided that they would one day no longer hand them out, and it was just a matter of waiting in line and filling out a few forms. Total cost was probably less than a hundred Baht.

Hi Heng, actually wasn't disagreeing with you, more trying to support your point.

[harrry]

For someone who's a member for less than 3 weeks you have quite an anti-Chinese and/or Thai-Chinese agenda, now surfacing more clearly.

I wonder if you've ever been to China or if you've ever met any Thai-Chinese people, at their homes, in business or elsewhere.

But in the meantime you are now entering very slippery ice because:

IF you discuss Thai-Chinese PM's or Thai-Chinese in general in Thailand you will end up in bumping into the Royal Family of Thailand, which you already did by mentioning PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, the 6th Thai PM, and acting three times as Thailand's Prime Minister, member of the Thai Royal Family and a descendant of King Rama II. *

I don't know if you realized but discussions about Royalty is not allowed on Thaivisa.

When you became a member you agreed:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation and comments of a political nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

* PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, acting three times as Thailand's PM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seni_Pramoj

LaoPo

With this post you lost the respect I had accorded you for your usually well considered posts.

[Heng]

Hi Heng, actually wasn't disagreeing with you, more trying to support your point.

Morning Samran!

[highchol]

For someone who's a member for less than 3 weeks you have quite an anti-Chinese and/or Thai-Chinese agenda, now surfacing more clearly.

I wonder if you've ever been to China or if you've ever met any Thai-Chinese people, at their homes, in business or elsewhere.

But in the meantime you are now entering very slippery ice because:

IF you discuss Thai-Chinese PM's or Thai-Chinese in general in Thailand you will end up in bumping into the Royal Family of Thailand, which you already did by mentioning PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, the 6th Thai PM, and acting three times as Thailand's Prime Minister, member of the Thai Royal Family and a descendant of King Rama II. *

I don't know if you realized but discussions about Royalty is not allowed on Thaivisa.

When you became a member you agreed:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation and comments of a political nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

* PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, acting three times as Thailand's PM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seni_Pramoj

LaoPo

With this post you lost the respect I had accorded you for your usually well considered posts.

maybe it was an accidental blow below the belt?

Edited September 4, 2009 by highchol

[otherstuff1957]

I notice that the OP was relying on Wikipedia and similar sources for his info. This might be a much more informative source: http://thevastandsinisterChineseconspiracy...vertheworld.com

[EffectiveAnger]

Don't worry about who is prime minister, you're likely so far removed from that social level that there's nothing you can do about it.

You'd be surprised! I taught the daughter of one former PM and if I had ever wanted a direct line, it certainly could have been arranged. BTW, he's one who will not go away and still plays a role here in politics.

[highchol]

I notice that the OP was relying on Wikipedia and similar sources for his info. This might be a much more informative source: http://thevastandsinisterChineseconspiracy...vertheworld.com

is there a ''secret'' key i need to press on my keyboard, cos i cant open the link