How Many Of Thailand's Prime Ministers Were/are Of Chinese Decent?

[mmushr00m]

From what i could gather from reading the postings, the view is that no matter how long or how assimiliated they are, Thai Chinese are still chinese and cannot be considered Thai. Does not matter how long they have been in Thailand, they are not to be trusted as they are not REAL Thai.

BEWARE THE YELLOW PERIL!!!!

Back to my secret lair to practice kung <deleted> with my secret society brethrens while we plot to take over the country and economy and which of us to make PM.

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe Heng's right; it's mainly about starting the day with a good breakfast. I grew up pouring my own cold milk for cereal, and now start the day with only 9 grapes and Pepsi-Max. The Mayas created a vast empire subsisting on black beans and corn tortillas. The Middle Kingdom of China, and the Tai-Siamese empires, on white rice.

[thaihome]

Some notes to this Thaihome, since I read that link also and I have some doubts if the content could be correct:

"In 2007, the Education Council estimated that the number of new students enrolled in bachelors programs between 2007 and 2016 will be approximately 500,000 each year,...."

500.000 Bachelor degrees with graduated students in Thailand ? That's a huge number.

In another link I found a number of 139.000 Graduate Bachelor students in 2003 (studying; not sure if they Graduated or not); (unfortunately that section can't be copied but I give you the link here:

http://www.gfme.org/global_guide/pdf/245-250%20Thailand.pdf look for page 4 under: STUDENTS.

I doubt if the number of 139.000 graduate students in 2003 increased to 500.000 in 2008/09 ?

LaoPo

The actual quote from your link is:

In 2003 the total number of undergraduate students was 1,711,332 and the total number of graduate students was 139,532.

I don’t think that says that 139,532 graduated, but that is how many went on to post-gradate studies after receiving bachelor level degrees. If you assume the 1.7 million undergraduates are divided up equally over 4 years, that would mean approximately 427,000 graduated that year. Seems consistent with other numbers.

TH

[samran]

From what i could gather from reading the postings, the view is that no matter how long or how assimiliated they are, Thai Chinese are still chinese and cannot be considered Thai. Does not matter how long they have been in Thailand, they are not to be trusted as they are not REAL Thai.

BEWARE THE YELLOW PERIL!!!!

Back to my secret lair to practice kung <deleted> with my secret society brethrens while we plot to take over the country and economy and which of us to make PM.

So shall I meet you at the RSBC at 5pm then?

[Hawaiian]

Wonder how many posters read the IRASEC papers about Chinese communities in Southeast Asia as recommended by Effective Anger. I did. Very informative. As mentioned in my earlier post (#53), it contains information that is not usually discussed openly in Thailand. While most of the emphasis was on the history of triads in Hong Kong there were references to works by Thai authors about similar activity in Thailand. There was also mention of not disclosing certain family names as this would most likely offend some well connected people.

Some posters have accused other posters of racism. Maybe true, maybe not. For the record, my mother's father was a Chinese doctor who came to Hawaii accompanying a group of Chinese immigrants recruited to work on the sugar plantations. He met my grandmother and the rest is history.

My point is this. I learn from others. It is my prerogative to agree or not. Disagreeing with someones point of view doesn't mean

resorting to threats and innuendos. Whether someone has 11,000 or 11 posts shouldn't make a difference. Old timers on this forum should lead by good example and not belittle someone because they differ in opinion.

[Heng]

Maybe Heng's right; it's mainly about starting the day with a good breakfast. I grew up pouring my own cold milk for cereal, and now start the day with only 9 grapes and Pepsi-Max. The Mayas created a vast empire subsisting on black beans and corn tortillas. The Middle Kingdom of China, and the Tai-Siamese empires, on white rice.

Despite being Thai Chinese, I still feel a slight drive (typically after spicy meals) to free the Thais from our tyranny. Don't lose hope, some of us our here to help.

Another important one, I almost fee like a traitor for giving this one away... indigenous Thais should watch LESS television. It's a waste of time, dulls your senses, and with that your business acumen. I stopped watching tv almost entirely for a 4-5 year stretch until I felt like my coffers were sufficiently full. If I hadn't done that, I probably would still be riding the bus to work, and probably rolling up balls of sticky rice to go with my pork on a stick for lunch.

More on sticky rice later...

edit: I think "free" is too strong a word. Let's say that I feel like our grip should be loosened slightly, sometimes too strong a grip stifles the productivity/creativity of workers. Let's not get crazy.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Heng

[Orac]

- snip-

From our first prime minister, Praya Manopakorn Nititada, to our latest, Somchai Wongsawat, -snip-

Did I miss something?

[caf]

For someone who's a member for less than 3 weeks you have quite an anti-Chinese and/or Thai-Chinese agenda, now surfacing more clearly.

I wonder if you've ever been to China or if you've ever met any Thai-Chinese people, at their homes, in business or elsewhere.

But in the meantime you are now entering very slippery ice because:

IF you discuss Thai-Chinese PM's or Thai-Chinese in general in Thailand you will end up in bumping into the Royal Family of Thailand, which you already did by mentioning PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, the 6th Thai PM, and acting three times as Thailand's Prime Minister, member of the Thai Royal Family and a descendant of King Rama II. *

I don't know if you realized but discussions about Royalty is not allowed on Thaivisa.

When you became a member you agreed:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation and comments of a political nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

* PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, acting three times as Thailand's PM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seni_Pramoj

LaoPo

With this post you lost the respect I had accorded you for your usually well considered posts.

Me too. Laopo. This was an interesting thread.

[EffectiveAnger]

Despite being Thai Chinese, I still feel a slight drive (typically after spicy meals) to free the Thais from our tyranny. Don't lose hope, some of us our here to help.

Another important one, I almost fee like a traitor for giving this one away... indigenous Thais should watch LESS television. It's a waste of time, dulls your senses, and with that your business acumen. I stopped watching tv almost entirely for a 4-5 year stretch until I felt like my coffers were sufficiently full. If I hadn't done that, I probably would still be riding the bus to work, and probably rolling up balls of sticky rice to go with my pork on a stick for lunch.

More on sticky rice later...

edit: I think "free" is too strong a word. Let's say that I feel like our grip should be loosened slightly, sometimes too strong a grip stifles the productivity/creativity of workers. Let's not get crazy.

If the Indigenous ‘Thai’ people are to be free of Thai Chinese tyranny, how do you suppose they should go about obtaining that freedom? By watching less television?! Come on! We all know that that was a very bigoted and unfair stab. As for the television watching, I could certainly say the same thing towards my own countrymen (Americans such as my mother and grandparents who’ve been addicted to the TV all their lives). It’s not only the Thais who watch a lot of TV, its people all over the world who do the same, including Thai Chinese.

Your post speaks volumes about the attitude of Thai Chinese like yourself who come here of the opinion that your people are better than the locals and they need your imperialist viewpoints to enrich their lives. It sounds as if you think of the indigenous Thais as nothing more than “workers” (i.e. serfs of the Thai Chinese overlords and tax collectors). I challenge you to look deep down inside yourself and ask this question: “am I better than other people because I’m Chinese?”

What if I said the same thing as an American, but I changed just a few words and it went something like this:

Despite being a white American I still feel a slight drive (typically after spicy meals) to free the coloreds (i.e. Blacks, Asians, Latinos) from our tyranny. Don't lose hope; some of us are here to help.

Another important one, I almost fee like a traitor for giving this one away... colored people should watch LESS television. It's a waste of time, dulls your senses, and with that your business acumen. I stopped watching tv almost entirely for a 4-5 year stretch until I felt like my coffers were sufficiently full. If I hadn't done that, I probably would still be riding the bus to work, and probably eating hot dogs with mac n’ cheese for lunch.

More on hot dogs later…

edit: I think "free" is too strong a word. Let's say that I feel like our grip should be loosened slightly, sometimes too strong a grip stifles the productivity/creativity of workers. Let's not get crazy.

How's that sound to you? Don't like it do you? And I bet it even strikes a cord with my fellow PC countrymen too. Think about it.

[madjbs]

^ Oh dear

[mauGR1]

IMO EA is missing the irony of Heng post

[madjbs]

You're not kidding

[EffectiveAnger]

IMO EA is missing the irony of Heng post

Okay, do explain then.

[Moonrakers]

Maybe Heng's right; it's mainly about starting the day with a good breakfast. I grew up pouring my own cold milk for cereal, and now start the day with only 9 grapes and Pepsi-Max. The Mayas created a vast empire subsisting on black beans and corn tortillas. The Middle Kingdom of China, and the Tai-Siamese empires, on white rice.

This post would have been perfect PB, but you failed to include some lyrics to a song as you so often do.

Only 9 grapes? Red or white?

......................

[LaoPo]

Wonder how many posters read the IRASEC papers about Chinese communities in Southeast Asia as recommended by Effective Anger. I did. Very informative. As mentioned in my earlier post (#53), it contains information that is not usually discussed openly in Thailand. While most of the emphasis was on the history of triads in Hong Kong there were references to works by Thai authors about similar activity in Thailand. There was also mention of not disclosing certain family names as this would most likely offend some well connected people.

Some posters have accused other posters of racism. Maybe true, maybe not. For the record, my mother's father was a Chinese doctor who came to Hawaii accompanying a group of Chinese immigrants recruited to work on the sugar plantations. He met my grandmother and the rest is history.

My point is this. I learn from others. It is my prerogative to agree or not. Disagreeing with someones point of view doesn't mean

resorting to threats and innuendos. Whether someone has 11,000 or 11 posts shouldn't make a difference. Old timers on this forum should lead by good example and not belittle someone because they differ in opinion.

About Irasec; (link provided by the OP):

INVESTIGATING THE GREY AREAS

OF THE CHINESE COMMUNITIES IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

Proceedings of the Symposium organised by IRASEC

at the Hotel Sofitel Silom (Bangkok)

on January 2005, 6th and 7th

I don't know if the report of the Symposium is or was openly discussed in Thailand or not but if the Symposium was held in Bangkok in a 5* Hotel it isn't really a secret also, is it ?

It contains very interesting information about the Chinese communities in SE Asia and therefore in Thailand as well but to be honest, I didn't read all 170 pages because I didn't find the time yet so far. Did you read all of them ?

Also, there are subjects in said report which do not attract my interest.

LaoPo

Edited September 4, 2009 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

For someone who's a member for less than 3 weeks you have quite an anti-Chinese and/or Thai-Chinese agenda, now surfacing more clearly.

I wonder if you've ever been to China or if you've ever met any Thai-Chinese people, at their homes, in business or elsewhere.

But in the meantime you are now entering very slippery ice because:

IF you discuss Thai-Chinese PM's or Thai-Chinese in general in Thailand you will end up in bumping into the Royal Family of Thailand, which you already did by mentioning PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, the 6th Thai PM, and acting three times as Thailand's Prime Minister, member of the Thai Royal Family and a descendant of King Rama II. *

I don't know if you realized but discussions about Royalty is not allowed on Thaivisa.

When you became a member you agreed:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

1) To respect fellow members.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation and comments of a political nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/boardrules.html

* PM Mom Rajawongse (or M.R.) Seni Pramoj, acting three times as Thailand's PM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seni_Pramoj

LaoPo

With this post you lost the respect I had accorded you for your usually well considered posts.

Me too. Laopo. This was an interesting thread.

That's too bad than but I'm sorry it doesn't effect my opinion whatsoever. I'm an honest and fair person and maybe you chaps should try and read a little better, as I mentioned very clearly, addressing the OP:

"I don't know if you realized but discussions about Royalty is not allowed on Thaivisa." BECAUSE he joined Thaivisa just since a mere small 3 weeks.

It's very strange that an educated Gentleman like the OP, Mr. EffectiveAnger, joined Thaivisa only since 3 weeks, having lived for quite some time (as I understand from his posts) in Thailand (American as I read in another topic) and even knows quite a bit about politics and the hi-so, having even taught the daughter of a former PM of Thailand.

Remarkable that he's only a member since the last 3 weeks, but not impossible; could it be that the OP was a former member...?

He's been around so to speak and that's why I still find it very odd why he's so after the Chinese bloodlines or not with the Thai PM's since 1933.

He sees a pattern and asked if we see that pattern too...?

I would like to know WHAT pattern that is, but I know, that's a rhetorical question

TiT

LaoPo

[Bukseeda]

I think Heng, though differing from my own opinion sometimes, is probably the most chilled out here.

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe Heng's right; it's mainly about starting the day with a good breakfast. I grew up pouring my own cold milk for cereal, and now start the day with only 9 grapes and Pepsi-Max. The Mayas created a vast empire subsisting on black beans and corn tortillas. The Middle Kingdom of China, and the Tai-Siamese empires, on white rice.

This post would have been perfect PB, but you failed to include some lyrics to a song as you so often do.

Only 9 grapes? Red or white?

......................

"It's the end of the world as we know it"? "We won't be fooled again"? "Everything's coming up Chinese"? "Give peas a chance"?

Red grapes.

I'm not moderating this thread; just playing. I'm not alone.

[Heng]

Despite being Thai Chinese, I still feel a slight drive (typically after spicy meals) to free the Thais from our tyranny. Don't lose hope, some of us our here to help.

Another important one, I almost fee like a traitor for giving this one away... indigenous Thais should watch LESS television. It's a waste of time, dulls your senses, and with that your business acumen. I stopped watching tv almost entirely for a 4-5 year stretch until I felt like my coffers were sufficiently full. If I hadn't done that, I probably would still be riding the bus to work, and probably rolling up balls of sticky rice to go with my pork on a stick for lunch.

More on sticky rice later...

edit: I think "free" is too strong a word. Let's say that I feel like our grip should be loosened slightly, sometimes too strong a grip stifles the productivity/creativity of workers. Let's not get crazy.

If the Indigenous ‘Thai’ people are to be free of Thai Chinese tyranny, how do you suppose they should go about obtaining that freedom? By watching less television?! Come on! We all know that that was a very bigoted and unfair stab. As for the television watching, I could certainly say the same thing towards my own countrymen (Americans such as my mother and grandparents who’ve been addicted to the TV all their lives). It’s not only the Thais who watch a lot of TV, its people all over the world who do the same, including Thai Chinese.

Your post speaks volumes about the attitude of Thai Chinese like yourself who come here of the opinion that your people are better than the locals and they need your imperialist viewpoints to enrich their lives. It sounds as if you think of the indigenous Thais as nothing more than “workers” (i.e. serfs of the Thai Chinese overlords and tax collectors). I challenge you to look deep down inside yourself and ask this question: “am I better than other people because I’m Chinese?”

What if I said the same thing as an American, but I changed just a few words and it went something like this:

Despite being a white American I still feel a slight drive (typically after spicy meals) to free the coloreds (i.e. Blacks, Asians, Latinos) from our tyranny. Don't lose hope; some of us are here to help.

Another important one, I almost fee like a traitor for giving this one away... colored people should watch LESS television. It's a waste of time, dulls your senses, and with that your business acumen. I stopped watching tv almost entirely for a 4-5 year stretch until I felt like my coffers were sufficiently full. If I hadn't done that, I probably would still be riding the bus to work, and probably eating hot dogs with mac n’ cheese for lunch.

More on hot dogs later…

edit: I think "free" is too strong a word. Let's say that I feel like our grip should be loosened slightly, sometimes too strong a grip stifles the productivity/creativity of workers. Let's not get crazy.

How's that sound to you? Don't like it do you? And I bet it even strikes a cord with my fellow PC countrymen too. Think about it.

Again, if you're watching a lot of TV and still poor, you're wasting time and likely diminishing your mental capabilities. It's fine if you've already made it though. I watch plenty of television nowadays, but I've already met a good portion of my life goals.

You didn't wait for my sticky rice addendum, which I'm sure will clear things up. The indigenous Thais should also consume less sticky rice. Folks from Lao, much of the Issan population, and of course the Khmers as well are prodigious consumers of sticky rice. While it's rich in energy, it's slower and slightly more difficult for the body to digest. It makes you feel full quickly, and invariable the greater blood requirement to digest it slows you down. Over generations, I'm convinced that this results in lower IQs and a generally lazy attitude. If you look at (generalization alert... but don't worry, that dashboard light probably burned out in your car a long time ago) the countries in Asia that are generally characterized as more productive: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, even large belts of the Indian and Malaysian population (thanks to basmati rice no doubt), you'll find sticky rice lacking as a common staple, more of as a dessert item only.

If you want to turn the Thai Chinese tide, again, nutrition is one of the keys. Especially if you see indigenous kids, or even indigenous father's or mother's feeding sticky rice to luk krung offspring... little do they know that they are pretty much sentencing these kids to a life of serfdom in chains. Think about it.

[brahmburgers]

In southern Thailand, there appear to be a lot of Malays in the mix.

In my region of northernmost Thailand, besides lots of Chinese and Chinese-descent, there's significant proportion of hill tribe folks. It's been said that if you go far enough back, many hill tribers descend from Tibetan stock. However, the migration could have taken dozens of generations, and SW China is on the way. Chinese themselves comprise a wide swath of types.

Interesting that it's generally much easier for a migrant from SE China (mostly Yunan) to gain citizenship, than other Asians. The reasons probably have to do with money and knowing people in power positions - all that mixed together with discreet societies of Chinese who facilitate the process.

Other ethnic groups are less organized, and even less influence in high places, that's why most others are stymied in trying to get Thai papers. However, upon further reflection, I see many of Indian descent downtown with businesses, homes, families, and others (Jordanian, Pakistani, etc) who seem to have gotten Thai citizenship over time, so perhaps it's not just the Chinese who are so well organized in that regard.

Edited September 5, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Heng]

I think Heng, though differing from my own opinion sometimes, is probably the most chilled out here.

Thanks, but it's only because the autopilot is on.

[mmushr00m]

Heng...how dare you give away secrets!!!

Beware you dont end up in the closet with a rope around your neck and your willy.

signed. The Yellow Peril aka Secret Society aka Triad.

[robert10]

Your post speaks volumes about the attitude of Thai Chinese like yourself who come here of the opinion that your people are better than the locals and they need your imperialist viewpoints to enrich their lives. It sounds as if you think of the indigenous Thais as nothing more than "workers" (i.e. serfs of the Thai Chinese overlords and tax collectors). I challenge you to look deep down inside yourself and ask this question: "am I better than other people because I'm Chinese?"

We do well to remember that Heng doesn't speak for the entire Thai-chinese population, just as the KKK does not speak for Americans.

He speaketh for himself, and of himself

[Heng]

Another thread successfully transformed.

Do you see a pattern?

[mauGR1]

Heng...how dare you give away secrets!!!

Beware you dont end up in the closet with a rope around your neck and your willy.

signed. The Yellow Peril aka Secret Society aka Triad.

Too late..Thanks to Heng revealed secrets,the TV readers will become the next dominant class of LOS...

Heng you can come to the office for payment(sorry only Leo or Chang)

[Heng]

I am seriously considering a drink though, thanks. That's what's wonderful about ThaiVisa... you're never really drinking "alone" in your office at noon.

[robert10]

Another thread successfully transformed.

Do you see a pattern?

Yeah, Thai PMs of chinese descent do not take sticky rice

[submaniac]

Umm, this once very interesting thread got hijacked into some weird tangets. Still interesting, but a little unfocused.

Nonetheless I would like to addres Mig16's question that she posed that everybody was required to adopt Thai names. I am not an expert. However, I did get some information about it from my grandfather when I was doing a family history report in high school. Apparently for a very long time Thais did not have last names/surnames until the King ordered it. According to the stories told by my father and my grandfather, there were times when China was not popular (such as the communist revolution) and what not, and those of Chinese decedent adopted Thai names to avoid conflict. According to my father, that was apparently what happened. The family name was Ko or Ngo. Then it got changed to Viriyabhan. (depending on the spelling). This incidentally is the same family that manufactures Mercedes Benz and owns "Viriyah" insurance.

[oevna]

Somchai Wongsawat

Somchai was born at Amphoe Chawang, Nakhon Si Thammarat Province, a son of Mr Choem (Thai: เจิม) and Mrs Dap (Thai: ดับ) Wongsawat

[He appears to be of Chinese decent and with a surname that starts with “Wong” I can only assume that he has Chinese roots.]

This tendency for Chinese-Thai families to have the prefix "Wong" has interested me in the past also. I initially came to the same conclusion as you: that it might be a way to preserve some semblance of their original Chinese surname (黃 Wong or 王 Wang). However, after looking into it a bit, I am not so sure.

Wongsawat is spelled วงศ์สวัสดิ์ in Thai, and the "Wong" portion of it is a Thai word of Sanskrit origin, วงศ์ vangsha, which in Thai means "clan, family, race, lineage." Thai phonetics render the unwritten vowel between the 'v' and the 'ng' as an 'o' (pronounced like the 'o' in the word "cone," not like the 'o' in the word "stop"), and the final -sha is silenced with -์ mai garan.

Whether or not this particular word was chosen because of its similarity to a Chinese surname, I do not know. But it is worth mention that many Chinese-Thai names also contain (usually as a suffix) the words ตระกูล -trakul "family, lineage, ancestry, blood, clan," or สกุล -sakul "family, blood, tribe, blue blood, nobility; genus." These words all have in common the meaning of a family lineage, a concept that is very important in Chinese culture. I suspect this meaning has more to do with it than the similarity in sound with the name "Wong." It would be interesting, however, to see if there is any correlation between families whose original Chinese surname is Wong or Wang, with families whose name contains the prefix วงศ์ wong-. I haven't done any such investigation, but I tend to doubt it.

[oevna]

IMO EA is missing the irony of Heng post

Okay, do explain then.

Sarcasm.