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Posted
The fear of failure is critical - all great thinkers, scientists, teachers, students, anybody that ever advanced any field, has encountered failure in order to advance.

Developing skills, and providing the students with tools to develop their own skillset, is of course another key idea - A negative example I came across a few weeks ago:

I have to add though that it wasn't negative for your three students, who learned to do things by their own creativity. They didn't win, but then so what? The measure of 'success' should come from within, not from external judgments. This what i mean about education inculcating the real chance of being labeled a failure. It's all externally-based, and encourages such things as cheating and all things mediocre. And it basically says to me that it's not worth developing students' skills at self-motivating themselves, and at discovering the real joy of INTERNAL motivation.

I'm not sure what you mean by the fear of failure being critical. In my kind of education there'd be neither, not fear, not failure. I think the great thinkers will get to their destinations anyway, but it's all the average students who really could do with an education that is not tied into fear and failure.

Education that has these concepts is a failure in the first place to me. And that's the umbrella that then colours the whole system and process below it. Not good.

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Posted (edited)

But you can't give up on them!!

I agree with that. My students can take a lot from the competition that is usable in their future lives, that's positive. I'll likely give up on the competition though... The judges (three foreigners) didn't even hand out scores or comments; no visibility of their marking, no feedback to the students... Having said that, now that I better understand the competition, it may well be an opportunity to discuss many areas of the competition. Any time we can get out of the classroom into the 'heart' of a learning opportunity, we should. I took around 20 students (the ones on the public speaking course) to the competition, which we discussed in detail afterwards - so we used it to pick up experience, as well as analysing the student speeches; pros and cons. I wanted to use the judges analysis too, but there wasn't any, so we couldn't...

My 'fear of failure' comment was meant to mean that the students must not fear failure. Indeed they should see mistakes / failure as possitive, but not to the point of accepting failure. Making mistakes is a positive part of learning; understanding your mistakes, learning from them, making improvements and reinforcing. I was just agreeing with you on this point - it's a critical point.

The area of marking and grading has a strong element of failure and success: A, B, C, D, F. As you know from another thread I'm taking an MA to up my skillset, and I'm looking forward to learning ideas of how to better manage this whole area via syllabus design and grading techniques...

Edited by jasreeve17
Posted
Best of luck to you in your studies.

Thanks.

After seven years of poodling around I've finally accepted that my previous life is over and I've become a teacher, so might as well try to teach to the best of my ability.

I'm going for an MA in Applied Linguistics and English Teaching from Nottingham University. I suspect it'll be pretty hard, but well worth the effort. Should vastly improve my skillset and open up opportunities too...

Posted (edited)
I discussed this with the teachers from a couple of other unis who clearly thought I was mad and were proud about their coaching methods - these were foreign teachers by the way.

I talked to you that day. I didn't think you were mad but I was proud of our coaching, or rather 'training, teaching and learning' methods. :)

Our students write their own speeches and then present it to us so that we can comment. They also have to record themselves so that they can hear for themselves what we're talking about and then go away and work on it themselves. One thing I remember discussing with you was the rules about the notes. We've been taking students to this competition for many years, and from the beginning we've understood that students are not permitted to use notes. You hadn't come across this rule though - and I still don't know whether they are permitted or not.

Anyway, our students had their earphones in and were listening to themselves while they were waiting, but last year I talked to a girl from another university who was listening to her teacher making the speech that he (the teacher) had written for her! I knew we didn't have a winner in our team this year - but a couple of them gave their best performance of the speech at the competition and, like your group, it led to a good class discussion with those who were part of our travelling support.

To be fair to the organizers, the grand final usually produces worthy winners because it includes an inpromptu round, which really does sort things out a bit.

Unfortunately, this year they ran into difficulties that meant they couldn't hold the grand final. My problem with this in the past has been that the winners, though Thai nationals, have usually come through international schools or even use English as a first language. They addressed that problem this year but then ran into other problems. It's possible that the contest won't even be held in the future.

Edited by KhaoNiaw
Posted

KhaoNiaw,

Good teaching, like yours :D , is one thing, writing and coaching is another.

I felt particularly unhappy with the judges giving zero feedback, with no scoring visibility.

On the notes front, I checked with the Thai lady that ran the competition and she said that students will NOT be marked down for having notes (which I felt they clearly were, but without judge's comments or seeing any scores, who can tell?). I also asked if there would be a lecturn for the notes to rest on - they said they'd put one on the stage, but they never did so...

Yes, the impromtu round is really important for fairness and to see the true nature of the student's skills.

I agree with your last point. I've a couple of exceptional student's who've been abroad for a long time or speak English at home, and I didn't let them enter...

The students that came 1st and 4th talked like native speakers with identically (and well) structured speeches. I was told that they don't study public speaking until next semester at their uni...

All four winners came from the final group of 6 or 7 students, even though all of the other groups had at least one student that was on a par, but...

Again, comments upon the speeches and marking visibility is required.

I was asked to be the judge when the competition was held at my uni a couple of years ago - I gave the role to another teacher because I taught the public speaking class and didn't want to be open to any claims of bias. We made comments on every speech and made the scores openly available - this is required.

The girl that came second or third, from the home uni, spoke really nicely, had very weak content and summed up with a quote that was in contradiction to her key message. I would've been interested to see how they scored her, but again zero visibility.

I know, I just sound like a bad loser... :)

Posted
The girl that came second or third, from the home uni, spoke really nicely, had very weak content and summed up with a quote that was in contradiction to her key message. I would've been interested to see how they scored her, but again zero visibility.

I know, I just sound like a bad loser... :D

That was the one that upset my group the most too. :)

Posted
...

I've seen stuff that school students copy, and the same for uni students. The stuff i've seen left me wondering just what kind of homework was being given, and of what worth. Firstly it seemed pretty irrelevant to life, and secondly it was the kind of homework that leant itself to being copyable, cheatable. This was partly behind my point that education seems slanted towards the mindset that cheating/copying is the best way out of the boring rubbish being given to students.

I feel that if education inspires those who are in it, and i mean both teachers and learners, then such attitudes that we're talking about pretty much disappear of their own accord. The fact that cheating goes on reflects an absence of inherent motivation from the subject being studied.

Strategies and learner-enablement, and decent motivating subject matter are the prerequisites for worthwhile education.

But as you say, if society has problems inherent in it, then problems are harder to solve.

But, on the other hand, education is surely the best possible chance for leading society forward towards more beneficial changes. It needs bold teachers who are prepared to question their institutions if need be, and who are able to motivate themselves sufficiently in order to have enough energy to help learners with their own motivational forces.

Those in education who care about their students, in my opinion, need to put their students first above all else. If anyone in any job needs to question the status quo, it's teachers. So if society is holding us back, fight it! Slowly but surely of course, but never to give up. Cheating is a reflection of the education that it occurs in. For me, cheating indicates a curriculum that is boring and perceived as worthless. No-one will cheat in something that inspires them.

Overall I agree with what you have said here, but I would point out a couple of things.

Not everything that is important is interesting. At university my major was geosciences, and my interests lied in the areas of landforms and paleontology. Structural geology was a bore...to me. And yet, structural geology was the specialty that would lead to oil and gas discoveries. So it was very important, but just not "my thing".

Sometimes what doesn't seem to have much value in "real life" is just something in which the value is not obvious. There are two things that students usually miss the value in. One is learning the skill of...thinking! You can't read a chapter about thinking and then know how to think and solve problems. You have to practice it, and the means sometimes seem boring while the ends seem obscure. The second thing is acquiring a body of cultural knowledge. That may not always be interesting either, but it is the body of knowledge of your culture that makes you "a Thai" or "an American" or whatever.

Posted
My 'fear of failure' comment was meant to mean that the students must not fear failure. Indeed they should see mistakes / failure as possitive, but not to the point of accepting failure. Making mistakes is a positive part of learning; understanding your mistakes, learning from them, making improvements and reinforcing. I was just agreeing with you on this point - it's a critical point.

The area of marking and grading has a strong element of failure and success: A, B, C, D, F. As you know from another thread I'm taking an MA to up my skillset, and I'm looking forward to learning ideas of how to better manage this whole area via syllabus design and grading techniques...

Right on the target in terms of not fearing failure. The parents I worked with in Virginia misunderstood the concept. They thought their children should experience failure. Of course, that doesn't prepare them in life because in life they are bound to experience failure and need to learn how to deal with it. Rather, as you so ably point out, working around failure and thus arriving at success is the key.

I'm not quite clear what you are saying about grading and failure. Right now in my old school system in Virginia they are experimenting with not giving any grades below 50%. Even if the student hands in nothing, they get 50%. The problem I see with that is that in adult life it doesn't quite work like that. Every job I ever had -- whether it was working in the grocery store as a teen and college student, being a teacher, or being a principal -- involved being evaluated. And, I don't remember ever getting half credit for no work at all. So, I wish you'd expand just a bit about what you were saying about grading.

Posted
Overall I agree with what you have said here, but I would point out a couple of things.

Not everything that is important is interesting. At university my major was geosciences, and my interests lied in the areas of landforms and paleontology. Structural geology was a bore...to me. And yet, structural geology was the specialty that would lead to oil and gas discoveries. So it was very important, but just not "my thing".

Sometimes what doesn't seem to have much value in "real life" is just something in which the value is not obvious. There are two things that students usually miss the value in. One is learning the skill of...thinking! You can't read a chapter about thinking and then know how to think and solve problems. You have to practice it, and the means sometimes seem boring while the ends seem obscure. The second thing is acquiring a body of cultural knowledge. That may not always be interesting either, but it is the body of knowledge of your culture that makes you "a Thai" or "an American" or whatever.

I should have said interesting and/or relevant. Is that better?! I need to also add, as perceived by the learners themselves. If we, as teachers, know something is relevant and our students don't seem to perceive it that way, then that is part of our job as a teacher to help guide them into new perceptions...

And so we come to perceptions, which really is the reality for most people most of the time. So for me education partly is about helping students deal with their perceptions, help them to new ones, help them to see or value things without perceptions. You say that sometimes the value in in life is not obvious, and that's true. Education can help change that though! I think perhaps the greatest gift a teacher can provide their students is to develop their skills at uncovering their latent self-motivation, and the joy of finding the value of doing something for its own intrinsic value without any external reward.

It's why i've talked about skills and strategies in the art of learning itself. And it's why i'm instinctively against assessment, at least so far as the general assessment types found in schools, and many degree courses in universities.

An argument against much of assessment is that it blocks to whatever degree the potential of each student from manifesting itself. The potential to find their own creative skills, the potential of discovering the intrinsic rewards that can be felt by pursuing the right attitudes to life and learning. And after all, a productive and creative life is surely one where we never stop learning.

I think cheating is a result of the crippling content of assessment which in turn drives the syllabus. The backwash effect.

Posted
I'm going for an MA in Applied Linguistics and English Teaching from Nottingham University. I suspect it'll be pretty hard, but well worth the effort. Should vastly improve my skillset and open up opportunities too...

That's the exact course i did, albeit at a different UK institution.

I found the whole experience illuminating and highly motivating. I should imagine a major part of your studies will include components on psycholinguistics and sociolinguistics, and it was this that really made the course for me. To study systematically the psychology behind learning and human behaviour, and people's language use and non-use based on social influences from their society was eye-opening for me. (in particular the latter which i was able to view with an extra eye, so to speak, having been living in a completely different society, ie thailand, for a decade before - fascinating stuff!)

I should imagine from what you say about your own juncture in teaching that you'll not regret your choice for a moment, even when you seem to have a lot of stuff to do while also working.

Nottingham also has a great record for our profession, and is at the forefront of research into it. Remember to enjoy it!

Posted

Phetaroi said: "I'm not quite clear what you are saying about grading and failure. Right now in my old school system in Virginia they are experimenting with not giving any grades below 50%. Even if the student hands in nothing, they get 50%. The problem I see with that is that in adult life it doesn't quite work like that. Every job I ever had -- whether it was working in the grocery store as a teen and college student, being a teacher, or being a principal -- involved being evaluated. And, I don't remember ever getting half credit for no work at all. So, I wish you'd expand just a bit about what you were saying about grading."

Yes, evaluation is required; no work to evaluate = zero = failure. Agreed.

I suppose I was trying to say that I'm interested in better understanding / designing courses where the evaluation element is inherent rather than exam orientated. For example, courses I teach include 25% of their total score for attendance and participation. The classes are designed to be very 'hands on' - learning through doing (avoiding transition leaning wherever possible, I focus on acquisition and emergence learning. Accretion learning is obviously significantly inhibited by Thai social restraints)... Generally, the other teachers offer 10% for attendance and participation which to me is little more than a token effort towards encouraging students to attend class. If the classes are really well designed, actually using the skills we developed, then they could often be 100% participation orientated rather than using traditional mid-term tests and final tests.

If we can teach using styles where students are naturally engrossed in the subject thus don't need traditional testing / evaluating methods then we're moving forward. Of course, you're right to say that the transcript has real meaning and reflects how well the students have learned (as well as how well they were taught...), so student's who don't come to class, don't focus on learning and don't develop the required skills for their course of study, will fail.

Posted (edited)
I'm going for an MA in Applied Linguistics and English Teaching from Nottingham University. I suspect it'll be pretty hard, but well worth the effort. Should vastly improve my skillset and open up opportunities too...

That's the exact course i did, albeit at a different UK institution.

I found the whole experience illuminating and highly motivating. I should imagine a major part of your studies will include components on psycholinguistics and sociolinguistics, and it was this that really made the course for me. To study systematically the psychology behind learning and human behaviour, and people's language use and non-use based on social influences from their society was eye-opening for me. (in particular the latter which i was able to view with an extra eye, so to speak, having been living in a completely different society, ie thailand, for a decade before - fascinating stuff!)

I should imagine from what you say about your own juncture in teaching that you'll not regret your choice for a moment, even when you seem to have a lot of stuff to do while also working.

Nottingham also has a great record for our profession, and is at the forefront of research into it. Remember to enjoy it!

I'm feeling a bit daunted at this moment in time.

As you say, there are some very interesting subjects which will open whole areas of teaching to me that I didn't know existed; using these inline with practical work in Thai universities should greatly improve my abilities and benefit the students too. Win, win...

I like the flexibilty and options offered by the nottingham course.

overview_chart.pdf

Edited by jasreeve17
Posted
Yes, evaluation is required; no work to evaluate = zero = failure. Agreed.

I suppose I was trying to say that I'm interested in better understanding / designing courses where the evaluation element is inherent rather than exam orientated. For example, courses I teach include 25% of their total score for attendance and participation. The classes are designed to be very 'hands on' - learning through doing (avoiding transition leaning wherever possible, I focus on acquisition and emergence learning. Accretion learning is obviously significantly inhibited by Thai social restraints)... Generally, the other teachers offer 10% for attendance and participation which to me is little more than a token effort towards encouraging students to attend class. If the classes are really well designed, actually using the skills we developed, then they could often be 100% participation orientated rather than using traditional mid-term tests and final tests.

If we can teach using styles where students are naturally engrossed in the subject thus don't need traditional testing / evaluating methods then we're moving forward. Of course, you're right to say that the transcript has real meaning and reflects how well the students have learned (as well as how well they were taught...), so student's who don't come to class, don't focus on learning and don't develop the required skills for their course of study, will fail.

Okay...cool...got it. Yes, I agree that an EOC test/evaluation is not always the best way to determine the level of learning. In fact, it's interesting how many teachers stick to it, even though when they are the students they abhor it. Old habits die hard. Lead the way! :)

Posted
I'm feeling a bit daunted at this moment in time.

As you say, there are some very interesting subjects which will open whole areas of teaching to me that I didn't know existed; using these inline with practical work in Thai universities should greatly improve my abilities and benefit the students too. Win, win...

If you're at the beginning of the course, then that feeling would be entirely natural...!

Your vocabulary section should be most rewarding with mccarthy being at nottingham, a major contributor to lexical work through his corpus work.

As you get into the course i'd imagine you'll start to feel a lot more comfortable. I hope you get good feedback, because i think that's one of the key things a tutor can provide on this kind of masters course.

Posted

Let's keep this thread on topic. It's about cheating/plagiarism. It's very good that people are continuing their education, and I would suggest that you might want to open a new topic to discuss continuing education.

Posted
There's some interesting literature on how Chinese students view plagiarism. Clearly the views of Western academics and Chinese students do not coincide, for the reasons given by Alistair Pennycook in Borrowing Others' Words: Text, Ownership, Memory and Plagiarism (TESOL Quarterly, Vol 30, No 2, 1996), based on his research in Hong Kong. The following article by two US and a Lithuanian academic at http://www.csupomona.edu/~jis/2003/Russiko...loroSalkaus.pdf cites a survey which finds that only 35% of Chinese students regard plagiarism as cheating (though only 20+% regard it as acceptable in academic work). 50% of them say that they would use work without giving credit. I suspect Thai students' views would be similar to those of their Chinese counterparts.

Perception is not a reality.

Posted
......

The top three unis are Chula, Thammasart and Mahidol - these are smart students who know that cheating = F.

......

I have known students from these universities (and others) that traded 'flesh' for 'academical writing'. It was fun. Except from the pleasure of being together studying (copying and reformulating, that is), I learned alot about various academic fields from outlining their different papers and theses.

What was the most rewarding experience was this: If you are taught how to collect information, read it, reflect on it, question it and finally compile it your way (with proper references), then you can tutor yourself any subject. This - unfortunately - is not the case in Thailand.

Get real: I have met (female) students that I know from Siam Square in the massage parlors on Rachada. Some I have helped out, some have a Chinese 'Sugar Daddy' who has hired a (relatively bright) male student to write the paper and do a superficially tutoring on the subject (in case questions should be asked).

Everybody knows that even a 'real' PhD thesis doesn't cost more than 50-100k in Thailand.

(Edit: misspellings)

No I didn't know that. And I surely do not know of any PhD adviser who would not spot plagiarized work from a student whom s/he has worked with for years.

Posted
......

The top three unis are Chula, Thammasart and Mahidol - these are smart students who know that cheating = F.

......

I have known students from these universities (and others) that traded 'flesh' for 'academical writing'. It was fun. Except from the pleasure of being together studying (copying and reformulating, that is), I learned alot about various academic fields from outlining their different papers and theses.

What was the most rewarding experience was this: If you are taught how to collect information, read it, reflect on it, question it and finally compile it your way (with proper references), then you can tutor yourself any subject. This - unfortunately - is not the case in Thailand.

Get real: I have met (female) students that I know from Siam Square in the massage parlors on Rachada. Some I have helped out, some have a Chinese 'Sugar Daddy' who has hired a (relatively bright) male student to write the paper and do a superficially tutoring on the subject (in case questions should be asked).

Everybody knows that even a 'real' PhD thesis doesn't cost more than 50-100k in Thailand.

(Edit: misspellings)

No I didn't know that. And I surely do not know of any PhD adviser who would not spot plagiarized work from a student whom s/he has worked with for years.

I agree 100%, and said the same (but, too 'strongly' so it had to be cut).

I was once asked to write a PhD thesis. I wouldn't consider it, but I did analyse the idea: I reckoned on three months of really hard full time work to complete it. I'd want at least 250,000 baht for my work, and I'm 75% sure it'd fail...

  • 6 months later...
Posted

That's a very interesting discussion going on here. As I will be working in Bangkok soon (Chula, Faculty of Law), I guess I will face these problems as well.

Apparently, plagiarism seems to be a serious problem (also) in Thailand. What I would be interested in: What kind of programs to detect plagiarism do the top universities, such as Chulalongkorn, provide to their teachers? Is it possible to use the "good" programs like turnitin, or do you have to rely on freeware?

Posted

Its very easy to spot here as they dont even try to cover it up, one or two paragraphs of total bs followed by a page of perfect english (cut n paste is rampant here) lol. I also like editing a paper that has absolutely zero original research but is full of references to other peoples work, which would not be so bad if they had even taken the time to read it. These kids are taught from day one all the way to college that it is okay to copy and cheat. And yes this is even in the so-called good schools here.

Posted

But what about the programs?

I agree, that sometimes it is very obvious. However, there might be cases that are not clear at first sight. For that reason, such programs can be quite a help.

Posted

In my experience in western universities, attendance is almost never required for lectures, yet the OP enforces this policy (seemingly from the university itself). Then the OP doesn't like the university's policy on plagiarism (allowing the student to rewrite the paper).

This seems contradictory to me--not supporting one awful policy and supporting another--and I wonder how people feel about this selective support. By the way, I think the attendance policy originates from the government department in charge of universities, whatever it's called this week. I also wonder if they have a clear policy on plagiarism.

Posted (edited)

What this topic is still up and running... Well, the latest... Three of my English Majors, plagiarised another students paper.. oh.. they were clever, this time, they just changed the paragraphs around and changed the first three words of each paragraph. As a penalty, at this U.. the instructor handles this situation on their own.. Thus, I thought to put the fear of shame in them.. I gave them the option of a Double F.. plus a notification letter to various members of ENG department and a letter to your parents.. Option B, write three letters of apologies to the appropriate department members, and receive only one F.... AND you know what happened next...

They saw their advisors, and were instructed not to write the apology letters, for what ever reason..Actually getting the students to talk about taking responsibility for their actions was like pulling teeth..but true to form.. the students, said, "another teacher told us not to write the letters. " Thus...a tacit understanding has been breached.. However, the end result...the students were informed they made their decision and the orginal double FF policy remains... The NO LATE ASSIGNMENT will be accepted; those teachers are not the ones giving you your grades!

Thus.. after the crying and more disinformation and refusal to accept the responsibility for their actions, a glimmer of responsibility came.. May we still write the letters? Please don't send the letters to our parents, and don't give us an F.

NO MY CHILD.. you earned the F, but the letter to your parents, shall remain on hold.

Plagiarism policy is listed on course syllabus. However, the chilling remarks by the students, we did not think we would get caught.

Thus Balif, whack their PP (Cheech & Chong, 1975)

Edited by Rhys
Posted
What this topic is still up and running... Well, the latest... Three of my English Majors, plagiarised another students paper.. oh.. they were clever, this time, they just changed the paragraphs around and changed the first three words of each paragraph. As a penalty, at this U.. the instructor handles this situation on their own.. Thus, I thought to put the fear of shame in them.. I gave them the option of a Double F.. plus a notification letter to various members of ENG department and a letter to your parents.. Option B, write three letters of apologies to the appropriate department members, and receive only one F.... AND you know what happened next...

They saw their advisors, and were instructed not to write the apology letters, for what ever reason..Actually getting the students to talk about taking responsibility for their actions was like pulling teeth..but true to form.. the students, said, "another teacher told us not to write the letters. " Thus...a tacit understanding has been breached.. However, the end result...the students were informed they made their decision and the orginal double FF policy remains... The NO LATE ASSIGNMENT will be accepted; those teachers are not the ones giving you your grades!

Thus.. after the crying and more disinformation and refusal to accept the responsibility for their actions, a glimmer of responsibility came.. May we still write the letters? Please don't send the letters to our parents, and don't give us an F.

NO MY CHILD.. you earned the F, but the letter to your parents, shall remain on hold.

Plagiarism policy is listed on course syllabus. However, the chilling remarks by the students, we did not think we would get caught.

Thus Balif, whack their PP (Cheech & Chong, 1975)

I write papers for a friend who goes to school in Bangkok. Now I’m starting to feel guilty.

If anyone sees any papers contrasting Drucker’s Management by Objectives with a current Harvard Guru please accept my apologies.

It is great that you came back on this thread after so long and included the end result. It is not what I would have thought. Refreshing outcome.

  • 4 weeks later...
Posted

I teach several classes in several schools. Usually have about 300 students a semester. I use www.plagiarismdetection.org to scan my students' projects for plagiarism. This website is convenient for me as it allows creation of numerous sub-accounts and classes. Each of my students gets an account, logs in and submits his/her paper for plagiarism scan. I do not even read the papers without scanning them for plagiarism beforehand. This is my routine.

<a href="http://www.plagiarismdetection.org">PlagiarismDetection.org</a>

Posted

Thanks and welcome to the site. Plagiarism is a big problem. I once had a student who had excellent English--she was one of the highest scoring students in Thailand on the National test. She had never been out of the country, but managed to get an excellent command of the language.

I caught her reading a novel several times in class, the "DaVinci Code". She said she was bored and I am sure she was. I told her I would let her write a report on the book. She wrote an absolutely excellent book report. Several teachers were sure she had copied it from somewhere. They all took a copy and went home to their computers to check this terrible cheat. Alas, she had not--she had written it herself.

She truly enjoyed the work being done by teachers to catch her !

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