Disgusted By Ignorance

[billbenbob]

VERY INTERESTING NOW I KNOW WHY WHEN I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT EDUCATION OF CHILDREN IN THAILAND OR THE CORRUPTION THAT IS GOING ON HERE ON A BIG SCALE MY WIFE TURNS ROUND AND SAYS TO ME NEVERMIND BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE GOT. SHE WAS AS ARE ALL CHILDREN BRAIN WASHED AT SCHOOL

[Scott]

Let's refrain from using all caps. No need to shout.

[Lickey]

I am a Teacher in a school in a school in the North East, I would love as much feedback as possible on this particular scenario.

My school this year held a merit making ceremony requesting funds from all Alumni, teachers, parents and students to finance a project that would commerate 40 years of the school being in existence.

Agreed one does not usually do grand things at 40 but at 50 and 75 with regards to institutions.

The culmination of this project was the unveiling of a 1.5 million Baht building for a group of 12 headed by one of the Assistant Director's of the school.

Incidentally he will retire next year.

My concern is that when I am in my class towards the end of it a few students who are basically poor come to me with palms open saying " 100 Baht, money, give me "

I could not understand this and now it transpires that this Assistant Director went on the tannoy system asking classes to donate as much as they have to celebrate the opening of the new building, actually it is supposed to be an office with the latest gadgets, best furniture and ...

The project cost 1.5 milion but the merit ceremony raised 1.2 million, no idea how they got the 0.3 million, something got shifted in the budget!

Sometimes after years of teaching I feel people forget in their minds and in their hear why they pursued a career to be a teacher and what motivated them.

This chap will retire and I feel it is because he has not been the Director of the School that he now wants to see his name in bright lights.

Students I observed today walked past the building and listened to the Karoke and then held their heads down and walked away not saying a word to each other.

Forgive me but the days are over when one could manipulate kids their brains are alive for the Internet is in their dreams.

I want to highlight my concerns to the Director that he had a chance to really improve the school environment by giving the 58 classrooms a decent environment but things are not that easy for I am a Falang and teach in dirty dusty chalky rooms with no aircon and sometimes no electricity.

I only hope that the Educational System will not end up on the Gillotine in years to come for revolution comes when people are made aware and able to unite and stand up for what is theft of their future promise.

I need some game plan for I really do not want to resign for my wife and I teach at this school but everytime I cycle past that building I feel truly sick at the exploitation happening to the students and teachers in my school.

So the reason this is being posted for maybe someone can point me in the right direction within the Educational sytem to highlight the anger of the students and the parents for being forced by Thai tradition to never question their teachers.

ok mate first off i want to say i am sorry you feel that you have no say in what goes on at your school because you are a falang..i am teaching english at namsom 'upper' school in north east thailand, after a couple of days of me being at the school all the teachers had a meeting to decide how best to decorate the outside of the new school block that had obviously been built before my arrival. they were all 'ooohing' and ''aaahhhing'' about various designs that a teacher had put together on photoshop when i suggested that maybe some of the money would be better spent equipping the existing school blocks with, cor i dunno, new desks, maybe some posters, equipment for the kids, ceiling fans (admittedly for my benefit as much as the kids...) a few of the teachers with better english kind of understood and lo and behold not long afterwards there were some ceiling fans put in all the classrooms! although from the sounds of it the thai teachers are well beyond the ''guilt trip' stage at your school, i think that speaking up and making them listen does sometimes (!) produce ok results. well good luck and all that mate, hope it don't affect your teaching too much. cheers, mike (lickeys son) namsom.

[Firelily]

Generally speaking, I don't think we can force change. It will have to come from inside. Farang teacher trainers have a crucial role here. I've worked with some wonderful young Thai teachers who got a good education in college and do teach the children to ask why, get them to work in groups, help them learn hands on, from real life experience. We have learnt a lot from each other and can have endless discussions - because the relationships are based on respect.

We cannot possibly walk into a foreign country, put our feet down, shake our heads in disbelief, and point out all the things that we think are totally wrong without any empathy, acceptance or understanding. Not even when we think everything is totally wrong. It is essential to choose our battles carefully, too. And then work hard, show respect, get accepted, and propose new ideas and changes in a subtle way, maybe twist it so that a Thai colleague or boss thinks it was their idea to start with. Climb back through the window when pushed out the door at the first attempt, if it is an important battle to be fought, but do so with an apologetic smile.

That's the only way that has worked for me, anyway, and as I see it, all new colleagues coming with a more aggressive attitude have ended up frustrated, miserable and hating Thailand.

[phetaroi]

Western-centric because I am western. That seems normal. And, I don't have an ethnic cringe about it as you seem to have.

Try telling a Thai that being Thai-centric is naive. No, you wouldn't would you.

I'd stack up western objectivity to Thai objectivity any day.

America is what America is because of its history.

England is what England is because of its history.

Japan is what Japan is because of its history.

Korea is what Korea is because of its history.

Thailand is what Thailand is because of its history.

There's no cringe there. It's just the way societies work. Every society is a product of its history.

I saw an American principal fail very quickly once (in an American school) because she basically came in and said, "Well that's not the way we did it at school X. Now you will do it the way we did it at school X." She forgot about the culture of her new school. The traditions...both good and bad.

I see that here a lot in these forums. A teacher (or non-teacher) comes to Thailand because it is different. Then complains because it is different.

And I might very well tell a Thai that being quite so Thai-centric is being naive. People should be open to possibilities.

You might be surprised at how open the Education Ministry is to change. They have active exchange programs with South Korea, Malaysia, and Singapore regarding issues such as technology in schools.

[femi fan]

"do you think thailand is just going to sit idly by watching itself go backwards?"

Yes.

So to you and jasreeve, on what basis do you think they are doing this? Are you talking about the country as a whole, or just their education system?

And do you mean 'backwards' literally, or just an absence of going forwards?

[femi fan]

Generally speaking, I don't think we can force change. It will have to come from inside. Farang teacher trainers have a crucial role here. I've worked with some wonderful young Thai teachers who got a good education in college and do teach the children to ask why, get them to work in groups, help them learn hands on, from real life experience. We have learnt a lot from each other and can have endless discussions - because the relationships are based on respect.

We cannot possibly walk into a foreign country, put our feet down, shake our heads in disbelief, and point out all the things that we think are totally wrong without any empathy, acceptance or understanding. Not even when we think everything is totally wrong. It is essential to choose our battles carefully, too. And then work hard, show respect, get accepted, and propose new ideas and changes in a subtle way, maybe twist it so that a Thai colleague or boss thinks it was their idea to start with. Climb back through the window when pushed out the door at the first attempt, if it is an important battle to be fought, but do so with an apologetic smile.

That's the only way that has worked for me, anyway, and as I see it, all new colleagues coming with a more aggressive attitude have ended up frustrated, miserable and hating Thailand.

I think we are the change! What i mean is that we don't need to tell anybody how to change, we represent and demonstrate what change is possible simply because we already are different when we get into teaching jobs. If we have the right attitude, do our best, then others can choose which bits of us they wish to follow and adapt to. Thais are excellent adaptors of western things - eg drinking cold red wine with ice in it!

I find that teaching works best when you act as a guide rather than the traditional ways of simply telling. That is after all the perceived problem in thai education, so if we're busy telling them how to be better we are succumbing to the very thing we're railing against. Teachers traditionally were the fulcrum of knowledge and had all the answers. That is still mostly the way in thailand, and using this method to change them isn't going to work.

Show what's possible, speak up with your own ideas but not in a overbearing manner, and let them internalise and change to their own pace. The new generation most certainly are asking 'why', and once they become the age for the next crop of teachers, then suddenly the default begins to change. As ever the internet is proving to be the people's friend in life, at the expense of the status quo and the oldies who are not used to anything except telling those below them what to do, how to do, and when to do.

Times are a changing, and even more so here in thailand. I find it difficult to see how folk don't think this is the case, hence i'd be interested to hear from them why they think thailand is a backwater and not changing, and refusing to change, and unable to change.

[PeaceBlondie]

"do you think thailand is just going to sit idly by watching itself go backwards?"

Yes.

So to you and jasreeve, on what basis do you think they are doing this? Are you talking about the country as a whole, or just their education system?

And do you mean 'backwards' literally, or just an absence of going forwards?

In my opinion, the Thai educational system improves very slowly, at a rate too slow to keep up with a forward-moving target. I'm often mistaken, but I suspect that most Thai educators aren't very concerned with how it's done elsewhere. They're not concerned or powerful enough to move the boat far forward, fast.

[Scott]

The education system is a reflection of the society and the society is a reflection of the education system. School systems are under the control of the gov't (here) and of the school board or other civil organizations in other countries--these entities ensure that children are not 'exposed' to any ideas that don't conform to the systems administering them. There are healthy doses of nationalism in the mix as well. Once they have the right mix of nationalistic interest and social indoctrination and are equipped with a functional amount of knowledge, they are ready to take their place in society.

That, unfortunately, is what schools do and why people will pay taxes to support them.

Education and social change move in tandem, more or less.

[phetaroi]

The education system is a reflection of the society and the society is a reflection of the education system. School systems are under the control of the gov't (here) and of the school board or other civil organizations in other countries--these entities ensure that children are not 'exposed' to any ideas that don't conform to the systems administering them. There are healthy doses of nationalism in the mix as well. Once they have the right mix of nationalistic interest and social indoctrination and are equipped with a functional amount of knowledge, they are ready to take their place in society.

That, unfortunately, is what schools do and why people will pay taxes to support them.

Education and social change move in tandem, more or less.

Excellent analysis. I am curious -- why did you say "unfortunately"?

[Scott]

I am not sure why I said 'unfortunately'. I think it is because a lot of people seem to think that they are going to make some sort of an 'impact' on the system and this is seldom the case. A lot of teachers make an impact on the students, but few make a lasting impact on the system.

In Thailand many of the innovative ideas--whether by Thai or Foreign teachers--are treated like a one-off novelty. Everyone will say "Good, good" but in a week or so, they want everything back to normal.

[phetaroi]

I think we are the change! What i mean is that we don't need to tell anybody how to change, we represent and demonstrate what change is possible simply because we already are different when we get into teaching jobs. If we have the right attitude, do our best, then others can choose which bits of us they wish to follow and adapt to. Thais are excellent adaptors of western things

...

I find that teaching works best when you act as a guide rather than the traditional ways of simply telling. That is after all the perceived problem in thai education, so if we're busy telling them how to be better we are succumbing to the very thing we're railing against. Teachers traditionally were the fulcrum of knowledge and had all the answers. That is still mostly the way in thailand, and using this method to change them isn't going to work.

Show what's possible, speak up with your own ideas but not in a overbearing manner, and let them internalise and change to their own pace. The new generation most certainly are asking 'why', and once they become the age for the next crop of teachers, then suddenly the default begins to change. As ever the internet is proving to be the people's friend in life, at the expense of the status quo and the oldies who are not used to anything except telling those below them what to do, how to do, and when to do.

Times are a changing, and even more so here in thailand. I find it difficult to see how folk don't think this is the case, hence i'd be interested to hear from them why they think thailand is a backwater and not changing, and refusing to change, and unable to change.

Femifan, this is one of the better posts I've seen in this forum!

As yo point out, modeling is far better than lecturing at. That's true in the classroom, as well as in meetings. And, as you imply, change in education is most often (and probably better to be ) evolutionary, rather than revolutionary.

Now, I do have to disagree...well, not really disagree...let's say worry about something you've overlooked...perhaps.

In the school in which I was principal in the States, I'd break the teaching staff down this way: 10% absolute top of the line, 20% second tier but really good, 50% good and solid, 10% needed improvement but you could work with them, 10% we had to move them out of education (so to speak).

Now I compare that with the posters in this and one other education forum here in Thailand. I've not done an actual tally, but I lump 30-40% into a group that either includes people who know little or nothing about the learning/teaching process or who, as human beings, are an embarrassment to the teaching profession and the country from which they come. Most of that group wouldn't know a best practice if they tripped over it in one of their drunken stupors.

I do have a difficult time seeing how a group of otherwise competent professionals is going to overcome the tarnishing of their profession by such a substantial cadre within their ranks. It's difficult to talk about raising educational standards (which is what this thread is really about) if many of the people within the group setting the example possess no real professional standard...other than the standard of "well this is what I think and because I'm a Western, I know best".

Now, before we go any further, I want to point out that in the above paragraph I am implying that a majority of the Western teachers here in Thailand are competent with excellent standards. Many of the posters in this and other such forums are wonderful educators. But, I'm not sure it's an overwhelming majority.

[phetaroi]

I am not sure why I said 'unfortunately'. I think it is because a lot of people seem to think that they are going to make some sort of an 'impact' on the system and this is seldom the case. A lot of teachers make an impact on the students, but few make a lasting impact on the system.

In Thailand many of the innovative ideas--whether by Thai or Foreign teachers--are treated like a one-off novelty. Everyone will say "Good, good" but in a week or so, they want everything back to normal.

I enjoy your posts, Scott.

At least at the teacher level, I'm not so sure this is such a cultural issue as is it the issue I always saw in the States: Most teachers want to teach the way they were taught...or the way their favorite teacher taught them might be a better way of putting it.

The last assistant principal I hired in the States was a disaster. Had an impressive knowledge base, but resorted to "being the boss" of the teachers, never leading. It took me a couple of years to figure it out. She was emulating the favorite principal she had previously worked under, who had given her her administrative start.

[elkangorito]

"Change" is something that many humans don't like. Usually, the ones who don't like it are the ones who have built a "comfort zone" or a "power base".

I believe that a lack of relevant & necessary change in Thailand, is a cultural issue.

Here are some partial quotes from Thai working colleagues;

"It's not Thai to do....."

"Thai people do....."

"Thai people don't do....."

On the other hand, one of my colleagues said something like this;

"I often think that how we think [Thai people] is holding us back."

The next comment was about Thainess

If you can't ask "why" because you have been programmed in this way, it is cultural.

It appears that "why" is a dangerous word. Simply look at the current or previous dictatorships. "Why" was not/is not only banned but also attracted/attracts the death penalty in many "programmed" & dictatorial countries. Please note that "culture" plays a big part in preventing change within these "problem" countries.

[phetaroi]

"Change" is something that many humans don't like. Usually, the ones who don't like it are the ones who have built a "comfort zone" or a "power base".

I believe that a lack of relevant & necessary change in Thailand, is a cultural issue.

Here are some partial quotes from Thai working colleagues;

"It's not Thai to do....."

"Thai people do....."

"Thai people don't do....."

On the other hand, one of my colleagues said something like this;

"I often think that how we think [Thai people] is holding us back."

The next comment was about Thainess

If you can't ask "why" because you have been programmed in this way, it is cultural.

It appears that "why" is a dangerous word. Simply look at the current or previous dictatorships. "Why" was not/is not only banned but also attracted/attracts the death penalty in many "programmed" & dictatorial countries. Please note that "culture" plays a big part in preventing change within these "problem" countries.

Very good post because I think you are implying that disliking change is a human condition, not just a Thai condition.

Early in my principalship in the States I got a call from a new principal who had recently joined the system complaining about how his son had been treated on his first day at our school. I apologized because it was clear something was not "right", and I assured him that I would look into his concerns. As I began to do so I found a lot of poor procedures were in place in the school, and when I would ask "why" we were doing something a certain way, the answer I would usually get was a long silence followed most often by, "Well, it's just the way we do things." By simple fiat I changed a number of procedures almost instantly and what an uproar...even though there was no logic for the way they had been doing things. In fact, changing procedures actually lightened the work load, but there was a degree of discomfort because it just wasn't "the way we do things here".

[PeaceBlondie]

A churchman wrote a book, The Seven Last Words of the Church: "We've Never Done It That Way Before." Thai culture......

[femi fan]

By simple fiat I changed a number of procedures almost instantly and what an uproar...even though there was no logic for the way they had been doing things. In fact, changing procedures actually lightened the work load, but there was a degree of discomfort because it just wasn't "the way we do things here".

It seems to be a human trait, certainly not anything the thais have a monopoly on, to treat overt change with suspicion and general unwillingness. Perhaps there are sound reasons for this, but my point here in reply to your anecdote is that i consistently find it staggering and disappointing when similar attitudes to change are held within the education system, in particular with teachers and those administered to shepherd education into the future. Education IS change, no?! Education is to me largely about helping people deal with change. If it isn't flexible enough itself, then we've got problems!

Back to your earlier post about the different teachers and different attitudes, i have found myself in the last few years as a teacher trainer. One thing i inculcate, and have to spend time doing so, is the art of asking questions. In demonstrating this (not telling them!) when i ask questions, non-experienced and experienced teachers alike (now in the shoes of a student) jump too quickly into providing answers. My point i make to them is i'm not particularly looking for the answer, rather i'm demonstrating that by asking pertinent questions we can often find answers that we would never have got without the posing of the question in the first place. I want teachers to get away from the traditional concept that they know everything (i must say that i'm talking about teaching english, science may be different for example), and to get into the habit of questioning themselves, their understanding, and just as importantly the institutions employing them.

Additionally when they ask me questions, i first give them the opportunity at trying to answer their own questions, then let their peers have a go before i give my input. I want them to think cleverly about asking questions, and then to try and find their own answers. Often just the act of asking clever questions is enough for them to find their own answers.

I say all of this because i feel lucky enough to be affecting the lives of many other teachers, and want them to become more autonomous so that they can then help their students become more autonomous. This to me is the bottom-up method to counter the fuddy duddies that run institutions, including obviously here in thailand.

I don't get many thais as my students, but it's most gratifying seeing them off into their careers (or back into them) with a positive modern approach to education here in thailand, determined to make a difference. We can't change the top strata, but we can change ourselves, and by demonstration we can very much help our students to manage their own change. Then, miraculously, those who get in the way of changes for the better will no longer be able to impose their miserable methods on the rest of us!

[femi fan]

A churchman wrote a book, The Seven Last Words of the Church: "We've Never Done It That Way Before." Thai culture......

I always think these kind of comments are unfair. Why are you singling out thai culture for what i think is pretty much a HUMAN cultural trait?

An interesting thing for all westerners who come to live in thailand to consider:

we come here, and presently we see and notice differences between the people from our country and those here in thailand. We hopefully will also be able to look at our own people (and hopefully ourselves personally) with new understandings and perceptions now that we are on the outside so to speak.

But if we don't manage the latter bit, then i think what happens is we analyse the thais and their country in ways that we've never done with our own people. This is a typical human trait too, judging others but not doing so to ourselves.

I think people see things in thais that they just don't/can't see in their own people back home. If we managed to deal with change a bit better, then we'd have no need for revolutions. Evolution would do us just fine.

[PeaceBlondie]

femmi, I agree. Western churchmen resist change; so do Thai educators. Nothing unfair in pointing out that Thais are human. I'm not singling out Thais unfairly, but we're relating our experiences of teaching Thais in Thailand. I will live here till I die. I sincerely hope that increasingly, Thais will ask why. They'll learn that "I don't know" is a good answer. Thais will learn how to question authority effectively.

[phetaroi]

It seems to be a human trait, certainly not anything the thais have a monopoly on, to treat overt change with suspicion and general unwillingness. Perhaps there are sound reasons for this, but my point here in reply to your anecdote is that i consistently find it staggering and disappointing when similar attitudes to change are held within the education system, in particular with teachers and those administered to shepherd education into the future. Education IS change, no?! Education is to me largely about helping people deal with change. If it isn't flexible enough itself, then we've got problems!

Back to your earlier post about the different teachers and different attitudes, i have found myself in the last few years as a teacher trainer. One thing i inculcate, and have to spend time doing so, is the art of asking questions. In demonstrating this (not telling them!) when i ask questions, non-experienced and experienced teachers alike (now in the shoes of a student) jump too quickly into providing answers. My point i make to them is i'm not particularly looking for the answer, rather i'm demonstrating that by asking pertinent questions we can often find answers that we would never have got without the posing of the question in the first place. I want teachers to get away from the traditional concept that they know everything (i must say that i'm talking about teaching english, science may be different for example), and to get into the habit of questioning themselves, their understanding, and just as importantly the institutions employing them.

Additionally when they ask me questions, i first give them the opportunity at trying to answer their own questions, then let their peers have a go before i give my input. I want them to think cleverly about asking questions, and then to try and find their own answers. Often just the act of asking clever questions is enough for them to find their own answers.

I say all of this because i feel lucky enough to be affecting the lives of many other teachers, and want them to become more autonomous so that they can then help their students become more autonomous. This to me is the bottom-up method to counter the fuddy duddies that run institutions, including obviously here in thailand.

I don't get many thais as my students, but it's most gratifying seeing them off into their careers (or back into them) with a positive modern approach to education here in thailand, determined to make a difference. We can't change the top strata, but we can change ourselves, and by demonstration we can very much help our students to manage their own change. Then, miraculously, those who get in the way of changes for the better will no longer be able to impose their miserable methods on the rest of us!

Hmmm. Education is change? Hmmm. Well, not sure I agree, unless you are talking about the personal change of the learner. I would say that education is more developing perspective. What I mean is that as one learns how to think, one may more wisely determine what societal norms need to change, or what norms need to be maintained.

Interesting perspective you have from being a teacher trainer. Not an easy role. It took me way back to my university days. I actually remember specifically who really taught me to think. Victor Schmidt, my glaciology professor. The first time we were on a field trip into mid-Pennsylvania (not far from Harrisburg). I asked him, "Did the glaciers get down this far?" He looked at me and said, "Open your eyes. I've given you the tools. Now you figure it out," At first I was pretty angry. How dare a teacher not answer a question by a student. But then, as I looked around I picked out a couple of landform clues that answered my question. Another time he took us to a gravel pit for "Landforms In Miniature", as he put it. We each had to develop a theory about some tiny landform we saw and then test it and determine if our theory was correct. At first I was clueless and said, "Just give me a problem to solve." Of course, he refused. Ultimately, I developed a fairly unique hypothesis that was real-world saavy...surprised even me...surprised him, too!

You're a great poster. Do you use more than one screen name?

[phetaroi]

I always think these kind of comments are unfair. Why are you singling out thai culture for what i think is pretty much a HUMAN cultural trait?

An interesting thing for all westerners who come to live in thailand to consider:

we come here, and presently we see and notice differences between the people from our country and those here in thailand. We hopefully will also be able to look at our own people (and hopefully ourselves personally) with new understandings and perceptions now that we are on the outside so to speak.

But if we don't manage the latter bit, then i think what happens is we analyse the thais and their country in ways that we've never done with our own people. This is a typical human trait too, judging others but not doing so to ourselves.

I think people see things in thais that they just don't/can't see in their own people back home. If we managed to deal with change a bit better, then we'd have no need for revolutions. Evolution would do us just fine.

Once again, I agree with you. In fact, I find many of the posters in this forum (not necessarily Peace Blondie) who decry Thais inability to change are actually having problems changing faced by the new culture in which they have chosen to live. They come from America or Britain (for example) and then moan and groan about how Thailand is different.

[femi fan]

Hmmm. Education is change? Hmmm. Well, not sure I agree, unless you are talking about the personal change of the learner. I would say that education is more developing perspective. What I mean is that as one learns how to think, one may more wisely determine what societal norms need to change, or what norms need to be maintained.

Interesting perspective you have from being a teacher trainer. Not an easy role. It took me way back to my university days. I actually remember specifically who really taught me to think. Victor Schmidt, my glaciology professor. The first time we were on a field trip into mid-Pennsylvania (not far from Harrisburg). I asked him, "Did the glaciers get down this far?" He looked at me and said, "Open your eyes. I've given you the tools. Now you figure it out," At first I was pretty angry. How dare a teacher not answer a question by a student. But then, as I looked around I picked out a couple of landform clues that answered my question. Another time he took us to a gravel pit for "Landforms In Miniature", as he put it. We each had to develop a theory about some tiny landform we saw and then test it and determine if our theory was correct. At first I was clueless and said, "Just give me a problem to solve." Of course, he refused. Ultimately, I developed a fairly unique hypothesis that was real-world saavy...surprised even me...surprised him, too!

You're a great poster. Do you use more than one screen name?

No, just the one name! And thank you.

Interesting to hear about your question and your angry reaction when the teacher didn't give you the answer! But your lesson learned demonstrates to me the beauty of transferring the learning process over to the student rather than the teacher taking all the responsibility.

It reminds me of one of my teacher students who didn't particularly want to not get answers. After going through the process i'd offer my answer. She would frequently say that it was 'common sense'. Anything can be common sense, once it's in our conscious thinking, but without the act of questioning in the first place there's no common sense!

What i meant about education being change is that as soon as we learn something new we must by default have embraced change. Those who do not like change do not put themselves into educational contexts. Those who don't like education don't deal with change so well...

I think change holds fear for many. And those working in education who have problems with change are arguably in totally the wrong profession!

[philo]

I will not cast any stones into this thread. The ripples are here already ...

There are some very good posts here - some of which points out that the feudal 'sakdina' is the root of the problem.

Then you have the 'face' thing: Go somewhere in a car, ask 5 persons 'Where is the road to 'Bahn ........' - and you will get 5 different answers (all wrong). You just don't ask (lose face because you do not know), and you just don't say 'I don't know' (same same).

So the one way dictating-accepting relationship between the teacher and the pupil assures that nobody will know how ignorant the teacher and/or the pupils are (I am not implying that all teachers/pupils are the same, what I say is that this method will not create any winners or losers - it will create 'harmony', not 'confrontations').

I am seriously interested in this question because I have two children here.

If anybody more knowledgeable than me could find the time to read this and comment, I would appreciate it very much.

I am not one for writing things that has been written before, so I will stop here but for one question: If you had children here, would you want them to 'learn to be' Thai or Farang? (given that you yourself have decided to reside here, there must be some reason why you chose to be an expat instead of staying home).

Thanks.

[Oneman]

Sometimes the road to change, sadly, is through the guillotine. At the core of Thai culture is an unwillingness to change. ... This is at the heart of the political situation. The inability or unwillingness to ask "Why?" is the number one obstruction on the road to political and social change - and especially, the educational system. It is at the heart of the current political situation. Change this, and everything else will follow in due course. ... I wrote this solely because I thought the OP deserved to know why things are the way they are.

Superb analysis.

A rare pleasure to see carefully reasoned analysis of "why things are the way they are" in Thailand.

Thank you, TongueThaied, for thinking and posting as you did.

-- Oneman

Chiangmai

[femi fan]

I will not cast any stones into this thread. The ripples are here already ...

There are some very good posts here - some of which points out that the feudal 'sakdina' is the root of the problem.

Then you have the 'face' thing: Go somewhere in a car, ask 5 persons 'Where is the road to 'Bahn ........' - and you will get 5 different answers (all wrong). You just don't ask (lose face because you do not know), and you just don't say 'I don't know' (same same).

So the one way dictating-accepting relationship between the teacher and the pupil assures that nobody will know how ignorant the teacher and/or the pupils are (I am not implying that all teachers/pupils are the same, what I say is that this method will not create any winners or losers - it will create 'harmony', not 'confrontations').

I am seriously interested in this question because I have two children here.

If anybody more knowledgeable than me could find the time to read this and comment, I would appreciate it very much.

I am not one for writing things that has been written before, so I will stop here but for one question: If you had children here, would you want them to 'learn to be' Thai or Farang? (given that you yourself have decided to reside here, there must be some reason why you chose to be an expat instead of staying home).

Thanks.

I would want them simply to try and be themselves, and to let them find their own answers to things, while at the same time recognising the inpact that society in general will have on them.

It's a long article you linked to and i've read a few paragraphs thus far, but the writer's wrong already: thais don't have thinking skills. I teach english, and i teach teachers of english, and i've taught different nationalities. Thais when they get the opportunities are at least as good as others at learning a foreign language (and bearing in mind that learning english is most likely harder for a thai than a student whose first language is similar to english) and at times it feels to me like they're actually better. Learner-centredness is at the heart of what i do, and once they have been exposed to various learning strategies in a motivating learning environment, THEY'RE OFF! My experience, and not just in the classroom, is that thai people are no less or no more intelligent than any other nationality. I also have heard too many times people claiming that thais can't do this or can't do that when they do those very things in my classrooms!

I also recall early on in my teaching career here being told by students that they prefer a class that is not serious, and would take that class before one where they might learn more, but where the teacher was serious. I also know from my research that over 90% of university students express the belief that they need their teacher to stimulate them to learn english. They like the right learning environment, and why not. Education is supposed to be for the students, so let's give them what they want.

If there are problems to overcome, and of course there are, then start with the teachers, not with the students. I so frequently hear teachers complaining about their students, but never looking in themselves to find answers. It seems to me that too many teachers are just too fixed in their ideas, and this to me is almost anti-education.

That writer also seems to be mistaking their analysis with what is actually true. Too many westerners i think make observations and judgments on thais using the wrong criteria to make those judgments. There are certain ways in the thai psyche that come first, eg krieng jai and social harmony. They are more group-oriented than their western counterparts, but instead of fighting this, we can use it to guide our own teaching.

Having just said what i did about teachers, perhaps i should get off many of their backs: they are left to swim in deep waters with little training. They get patchy professional development, and they are very very busy.

Two places to really focus on in trying to improve thai education: smaller class sizes, and the ministry of education. The latter has had no real continuity for years now. Surin in the 90s promised great things, but he only lasted a year or two. Since then i can't remember a single minister of education being worth his salt.

Oh, and finally: education is in a state of woe in most countries i think. I hear of appalling tales from thailand, US, UK, Australia, UAE.

[Scott]

Would I send my children to a Thai School?

Interesting question. I work in a bilingual program and I would have no problem in sending my children to school there. Or a similar type of program. This is especially true during the grade school years. At the high school level, I don't know. I can't really compare between western schools and Thai schools because of my absence from the West for a number of years.

Children need to learn to follow rules and instructions as well as to think analytically. Parents are quite capable of teaching children to be inquisitive and to explore. This, I believe, in Thailand is the crux of the problem. Parents don't question and questioning isn't encouraged in the culture or in the family. Schools cannot teach questioning under these circumstances.

Schools are schools and there purpose is to educate. They cannot replace parents and that is where children learn the most basic foundation of questioning and exploring the world around them.

[Scott]

Would I send my children to a Thai School?

Interesting question. I work in a bilingual program and I would have no problem in sending my children to school there. Or a similar type of program. This is especially true during the grade school years. At the high school level, I don't know. I can't really compare between western schools and Thai schools because of my absence from the West for a number of years.

Children need to learn to follow rules and instructions as well as to think analytically. Parents are quite capable of teaching children to be inquisitive and to explore. This, I believe, in Thailand is the crux of the problem. Parents don't question and questioning isn't encouraged in the culture or in the family. Schools cannot teach questioning under these circumstances.

Schools are schools and there purpose is to educate. They cannot replace parents and that is where children learn the most basic foundation of questioning and exploring the world around them.

[elkangorito]

If anybody more knowledgeable than me could find the time to read this and comment, I would appreciate it very much.

With regard to the link provided in the above quote & IMHO, the writer (in the link) seems to have a realistic view of things in Thailand. I read ALL of the content in his story, including the end comments, some of which are VERY interesting because the comments were made by Thai people.

Again IMHO, the problem is "cultural" (if one considers that there is a problem). From what I've noticed in my life, religion & culture play a HUGE part in forming the rules of any society & also keep people "under control".

I don't like either of these things.

One of the things the writer (in the link) said:

In the contest of appearance versus substance, appearance always wins in Thailand (“phak chee roy na”). There is a suggestion that the predilection for these bulky investments are underpinned by the budget approval procedures of the Budget Bureau, although it is also not unknown to hear whispers of lucrative commissions received under the table for huge construction projects (compared to say buying books).

This now directly realates to the OP's original post, as well as relate to the "further effect" of "appearance always wins in Thailand."

To me, it's simple; if Thailand wishes to join the rest of the world anytime this century, it must unchain itself from cultural constraints, lest it will suffer due to lack of internal change.

Culture is wonderful...if it is simply remembered & celebrated. It becomes a societal shackle if it is enforced (by law or by guilt). The tool used to enforce "culture" in Thailand is mostly guilt with a law or 2 (one of these laws is particularly nasty). This coincides with all of the other egotistical "rules" that preside here in the Land Of Guilt/Land Of Ego (take your pick).

Hopefully, we foreigners may have a slow but steady influence on young minds with regard to stimulating curiosity about "THE WORLD"...and everything in it. We may be the perfect catalyst to stimulate the use of that forbidden word, "WHY".

"Slow & steady wins the race" - The Tortoise.

Edited September 13, 2009 by elkangorito

[elkangorito]

Another thing I stumbled across;

Q: I agree that it’s difficult and time consuming. I don’t have a solution. How does the MoE view education in Thailand?

A: In summary, the Thai MoE’s concept of education in Thailand is to:

1. Bring Thai wisdom to students.

2. Bring foreign wisdom to students.

3. Bring local wisdom to students.

Full article on: www.ajarn.com/interview_at_moe.htm"]http://www.ajarn.com/interview_at_moe.htm[/url]

Edited September 13, 2009 by Scott
Direct link to other web boards not allowed/Scott

[phetaroi]

...

If there are problems to overcome, and of course there are, then start with the teachers, not with the students. I so frequently hear teachers complaining about their students, but never looking in themselves to find answers. It seems to me that too many teachers are just too fixed in their ideas, and this to me is almost anti-education.

...

Having just said what i did about teachers, perhaps i should get off many of their backs: they are left to swim in deep waters with little training. They get patchy professional development, and they are very very busy.

Two places to really focus on in trying to improve thai education: smaller class sizes, and the ministry of education. The latter has had no real continuity for years now. Surin in the 90s promised great things, but he only lasted a year or two. Since then i can't remember a single minister of education being worth his salt.

Oh, and finally: education is in a state of woe in most countries i think. I hear of appalling tales from thailand, US, UK, Australia, UAE.

As always, I really liked your post.

In regard to the first paragraph I reposted above...I'm in absolute agreement. There are so many problems with standardized government testing in the States, but one thing it has done is provide a tool for teachers to compare their own results with the results of their own colleagues. It has forced some soul searching.

No, don't get off their backs. I taught and administered in Virginia where the recertification requirements due every 5 years is heaven, with many options for earning points toward recertification. Many are relatively painless. Additionally, my system provided many opportunities for teachers to earn recertification points for free. The result, bitching and moaning. An occasional request for me (as an administrator) to falsify a record. Teachers sharing advice on which college course to take that required "no work", rather than one from which they could actually learn. I could go on...you get the point. One day the science department invited me (as Principal) to come to their department meeting. I already knew they topic of complaint -- "how can they expect us to teach special education students who are mainstreamed into general education if they don't provide us with any training. So, I did my research and for the past 12 months I found about a dozen courses offered by local colleges (which would have been paid for by the school system), as well as about another dozen training programs offered by the school system itself (free to teachers). Had any of our 8 science teachers taken any of the opportunities...even though they had been made aware of them...even though they all needed to earn recertification points? No. Easier to just complain.

I could tell you lots more stories about teachers not being "life-long learners" themselves...just as they will tell you dozens of stories about mean and cruel and foolish administrators. It's a mutual admiration society.

Of course, it's complicated even more here in Thailand by the often untrained Western teachers who teach because they believe it's just an easy profession.

Your comments about class size are interesting. All of us...administrators and teachers alike...bridled under the comments of one of our otherwise most popular assistant superintendents, over the issue of class sizes. Personally, I think a class size of about 24 (give or take) is perfect, but I can live with anything between 22-29. This particular assistant superintendent latched on to a body of research that seemed to indicate that learning didn't suffer until class size jumped to over 40. Technically, the studies were probably correct, although they did not take into account things like teacher burnout.

I cannot speak with any authority on the competence of Ministers of Education in Thailand. I don't know. I do know that there are many competent and dedicated educators who work in the Ministry of Education who are trying very hard to make a difference.

I'm not sure about education being in a "state of woe" in many countries. I think education is a difficult profession to critique with any authority, yet everyone feels competent to do so because everyone went to school.