Can Legal Workers Really Cover The Tourism Industry ?

[Alaskagrrl]

Most of us know a significant majority of Dive Tourism workers are foreign illegals. What's going to happen when they are driven out ?

I spent a year in Thailand on tourist visas and supported by my pension. Some people pulled in a few baht of pocket change, but I know I spent over $10,000 USD on everything from food, to rent, to dive equipment. A net loss financially for me and a net gain for Thailand. The money spent in Thailand by people who enjoyed professional service jacked that figure up considerably ! The places I hung around 'had a deal' with Immigration. Legally that is called 'Tacit Approval'.

Dive Professionals are highly trained and often very experienced individuals. It's not like teaching English or something, this is an industry that deals with life and death issues.

Do you think the Thais will be able to replace this trained workforce ? How quickly ? What is going to happen to the Dive Industry in the meantime ?

The first rule in being an Expat are that the rules change ! Fair enough but are the Thais REALLY prepared to fill this niche ? I don't want to appear insensitive but most Thais I've met would rather spend their time above water.

Requiring Dive Pros to 'get legal' by forming businesses, paying taxes and hiring 'no work' partners will raise the price of scuba diving through the roof in Thailand !

People (workers and tourists both) will be driven to the Philippines where the diving is much better, the living cheaper -- and they still offer Tacit Approval.

That's what I chose...

Edited September 11, 2009 by Alaskagrrl

[Mario2008]

There is nothing preventing them to go legal and get a workpermit and non-B visa, unless the labour department doesn't issue them to divemasters. I can't remember it being on the list of closed occupations.

[Alaskagrrl]

There is nothing preventing them to go legal and get a workpermit and non-B visa, unless the labour department doesn't issue them to divemasters. I can't remember it being on the list of closed occupations.

The biggest thing preventing them 'going legal' are the numbers ! It doesn't pay well enough and the work is very sporadic. Going legal is going to drive the prices up dramatically.... and drive tourists out.

I think it would be extremely difficult to get a non-B for being divemaster or instructor. They even stopped giving education visas over three months for dive school education. It can take very much longer than three months to complete full training. It's a hot issue for the Thai Govt, and not in a good way...

[Mario2008]

The minimum incoem requirement is only for an extension of stay from immigration. It is not a labour department requirement, so you can get a workpermit and a non-B visa. One would have to leave every 90 days as you can't get an extension, but would be legal.

In my opinion it is not advisable to ork illegal, certainly not as a dive instructor. If anything goes wrong during a dive you will be in serious trouble with the law.

[antony77]

You people have ruined all the reefs in Thailand by bringing in far too many SCUBA divers. Why SCUBA? the water is clear and snorkeling far less destructive. I would like to see a ban on SCUBA diving for one year and allow only snorkelling. The big fish and sharks would all come back. As for SCUBA instructors being very skilled that is a joke. You only have to take an easy course to become an instructor. Can you dive without SCUBA? How long could you hold your breath in an emergency.

[patklang]

Not an expert on this topic but you seem to be making excuses for people who are working illegaly here,even though from your own admittance,you say dealing with life or death issues.So also you might be saying that no insurance is available too,which is very bad.

Why dont we all work illegaly and stuff the rules,the answer is most dont ,and if the fees go up so be it.

[Alaskagrrl]

Sorry but I find the previous two comments uninformed and bordering on heartless !

And yes I am making excuses for people who come to a country to discover powers-that-be are saying: Fine ! Go ahead ! It's good for business for you to work ! We'll take care of Immigration ! You don't understand -- that's the way things are done here !

Thailand itself allowed the explosive growth of dive tourism, not the people servicing the industry. As well it's apparent that at least one of you have no idea of what SCUBA is all about. Sing to the wind if you think Snorkeling is equivalent tourism revenue generator.

Yes the reefs have been damaged. Name one single industry that is blameless. Remember that most of the sharks have become soup at the hands of the Thais themselves....

Dive leaders and instructors are indeed very professional people. If you think one or two weeks of intense training is easy than you are better than me. Add the fact daily grind of diving is physically demanding, personally dangerous and often just frustrating are factors that will make these people hard to replace.

As far as I can see there is going to be an upcoming shortage Thai Dive Professionals to cover an industry created by the Thai Governments practice of tacit approval. As well if the "price just goes up to be legal -- so be it" is plain shortsighted ! This reverse bubble has potential to affect Thai people extremely negatively as this industry shrinks or exports.

Its easy to sit at a keyboard and support this about-face to occur with aplomb. I've come to love some of the people who are going to be hurt badly.

Reversal in the face of non-enforcement for so many years is heartless and risky. A brain drain will occur. Wise, compassionate minds would legislate this industry into a legal existence. I think certain professional contractors should be allowed to work legally without all the business restrictions, even if only for a year or so like in Australia.

Call it the Land of Smiles if you want. In the year I stayed in Thailand I've learned that smile can quickly turn into a Grimace of Contempt for no reason other than change of political fortunes. The saddest thing is the Thai people will be hurt the most.

Expats can just move along while some of my good friends are going to be hurt by this.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Alaskagrrl

[samran]

Sorry but I find the previous two comments uninformed and bordering on heartless !

And yes I am making excuses for people who come to a country to discover powers-that-be are saying: Fine ! Go ahead ! It's good for business for you to work ! We'll take care of Immigration ! You don't understand -- that's the way things are done here !

Thailand itself allowed the explosive growth of dive tourism, not the people servicing the industry. As well it's apparent that at least one of you have no idea of what SCUBA is all about. Sing to the wind if you think Snorkeling is equivalent tourism revenue generator.

Yes the reefs have been damaged. Name one single industry that is blameless. Remember that most of the sharks have become soup at the hands of the Thais themselves....

Dive leaders and instructors are indeed very professional people. If you think one or two weeks of intense training is easy than you are better than me. Add the fact daily grind of diving is physically demanding, personally dangerous and often just frustrating are factors that will make these people hard to replace.

As far as I can see there is going to be an upcoming shortage Thai Dive Professionals to cover an industry created by the Thai Governments practice of tacit approval. As well if the "price just goes up to be legal -- so be it" is plain shortsighted ! This reverse bubble has potential to affect Thai people extremely negatively as this industry shrinks or exports.

Its easy to sit at a keyboard and support this about-face to occur with aplomb. I've come to love some of the people who are going to be hurt badly.

Reversal in the face of non-enforcement for so many years is heartless and risky. A brain drain will occur. Wise, compassionate minds would legislate this industry into a legal existence. I think certain professional contractors should be allowed to work legally without all the business restrictions, even if only for a year or so like in Australia.

Call it the Land of Smiles if you want. In the year I stayed in Thailand I've learned that smile can quickly turn into a Grimace of Contempt for no reason other than change of political fortunes. The saddest thing is the Thai people will be hurt the most.

Expats can just move along while some of my good friends are going to be hurt by this.

As others have pointed out, it is thoroughly possible for you to work legally here. Presumably you haven't really bothered to find out how this is possible, or happy just to work under the table, avoiding taxes and social security payments. Yes, thailand is losing out in more ways than one.... Any 'arrangement' between your employer and the authorities is simply a cop out on your employers behalf in getting the correct paperwork in order. Blame them as much as you blame 'the man'.... the authorities.

That your salary is crap is no ones fault except your own. Supply and demand my friend.

I also doubt that if prices go up, people will be forced away. People fly half way across the world to dive the barrier reef. Prices are necessarily high given the adherence to proper regulatory and safety laws, good equipment, and to pay and keep instructors. People still would come, and higher prices may actually mean that Thai people - the ones you so care about - might actually benefit from proper payment for their time.

Edited September 12, 2009 by samran

[Penefattore]

Sure, so I guess we are going to see a workforce migration from the bank sector (average pay 18,000 baht) to scuba diving (50,000 baht as that is the minimum salary needed for a work permit farang instructors like Alaska girl cannot afford)

[Mario2008]

Sure, so I guess we are going to see a workforce migration from the bank sector (average pay 18,000 baht) to scuba diving (50,000 baht as that is the minimum salary needed for a work permit farang instructors like Alaska girl cannot afford)

There is no minimum income requirement to get a work permit!

[samran]

Sure, so I guess we are going to see a workforce migration from the bank sector (average pay 18,000 baht) to scuba diving (50,000 baht as that is the minimum salary needed for a work permit farang instructors like Alaska girl cannot afford)

The 50,000 baht reqirememnt is if you want to extend your work permit...but, work permits are available to those on a 90 day basis without the 50K requirement. Not ideal, but keeps you legal.

The OP also pointed out " I think certain professional contractors should be allowed to work legally without all the business restrictions, even if only for a year or so like in Australia." Funny she should mention that, as Thailand has a reciprocal working holday agreement for those under 30 with Australia, meaning any Australian can come here and be a dive instructor for a year, if they wish.

[Alaskagrrl]

As others have pointed out, it is thoroughly possible for you to work legally here. Presumably you haven't really bothered to find out how this is possible, or happy just to work under the table, avoiding taxes and social security payments.

I post concern about the change of an industry and the people -- THAI PEOPLE -- that will be hurt... and you flame me as a corrupt illegal !

You people are unbelievably rude !

A 'working' dive pro might get 500 baht for a day's work, sporadic at that maybe three-four days a week if lucky. Add the legal fees to get a permit and the taxes and it's nearly impossibly to be legal. That is the industry as the Thais have structured it. Besides -- we don't get to live on "Thai Prices" (rude itself in the extreme).

Nearly seven thousand posts ? IMNSHO you need to get back in the world to understand reality details. In the meantime I would appreciate if you addressed the TOPIC and restrain from flaming a concerned messenger.

[Alaskagrrl]

There is no minimum income requirement to get a work permit!

Sure -- but I think the concept of "Economix 101" comes into play !!

[7by7]

I post concern about the change of an industry and the people -- THAI PEOPLE -- that will be hurt... and you flame me as a corrupt illegal !

You people are unbelievably rude !

No, you defend illegal working, claiming it is impossible to work legally. Mario and Samran point out that it is perfectly possible to work legally and for that you call them rude!

You have your opinion, they have theirs; live with it.

[crocodilexp]

Dear Scuba Instructor, let me summarize for you the reaction you or anyone else who dares to complain will elicit from the smug majority on Thaivisa:

You are not me, you're not in my visa category. You were violating the spirit of the unclear and ever-changing law. Get legal, it is possible on paper, easy even. If you're not making enough money (amount defined as what I make now), you do not deserve a shot at happiness in life -- not in Thailand for sure, go home now so I can have the whole place to myself. Oh, and the minor detail that tightening of regulations might some day affect me too -- doesn't matter compared to the enjoyment I derive from bashing the inferior souls like you on the internet (since I lack balls to say it to your face, and the seemingly bulletproof visa category is one of my main achievements in life).

Have a nice day.

Edited September 12, 2009 by crocodilexp

[Alaskagrrl]

Dear Scuba Instructor, let me summarize for you the reaction you or anyone else who dares to complain will elicit from the smug majority on Thaivisa:

Gosh, a real person finally. I thank you for speaking up !

And I will have a nice day, the moment I cancel my membership.

You might find like minds in Alaska -- another of the world's most wonderful places to live.

[Lite Beer]

The law requires that foreigners need a Work Permit to work in Thailand. If you choose not to follow the law that is up to you. You are the one taking the risk of facing fines, jail or deportation.

It is as simple as that. Up to you.

[isaanbrit]

Sure, so I guess we are going to see a workforce migration from the bank sector (average pay 18,000 baht) to scuba diving (50,000 baht as that is the minimum salary needed for a work permit farang instructors like Alaska girl cannot afford)

There is no minimum income requirement to get a work permit!

What????

I've been told many times that the minimum wage for brits is 50,000 baht or no WP ???

[Lite Beer]

That is the minimum for an extension of stay not a Work Permit.

[SpoliaOpima]

You might find like minds in Alaska -- another of the world's most wonderful places to live.

Ah yes Sarah Palin country where working illegally is perfectly acceptable?

Edited September 13, 2009 by SpoliaOpima

[Tatsujin]

It never ceases to amaze me just how much bashing or flaming that goes on here! lol

Within one or two posts of the original, it degenerates into a "you're wrong, I'm right, if you don't like it here, go back to where you came from" back and forth cyclic argument. At least the Mods (thank you) do a good job trying to calm things down and sticking to the facts, but some of you people really do need to get a life!

We are all here in the LOS for different reasons and under different circumstances and we all have our own opinions, if you don't agree with some of those opinions, you "can" keep your opinions to yourself

[samran]

It never ceases to amaze me just how much bashing or flaming that goes on here! lol

Within one or two posts of the original, it degenerates into a "you're wrong, I'm right, if you don't like it here, go back to where you came from" back and forth cyclic argument. At least the Mods (thank you) do a good job trying to calm things down and sticking to the facts, but some of you people really do need to get a life!

We are all here in the LOS for different reasons and under different circumstances and we all have our own opinions, if you don't agree with some of those opinions, you "can" keep your opinions to yourself

The OP is nonsensical.

In one breath she(?) states that her work is life or death related (which it is) but that also it should remain under the table so fine outstanding members of the super-farang race should be able to stay here cause no one else is going to do the job, especially the unswimming locals.

Now, if it was me who was running the country, I'd want people in positions of responsibilites such as this certified, trained, insured etc etc so the safety of the clients is best looked after. Now if this is going to cost more, then so be it.....regulation, safety, etc actually costs money.

She seems to be advocating the growth of a cowboy industry.

Other posters, like myself and Mario, have happily pointed out she can stay and work here properly...it isn't rocket science. Plenty of people on salaries lower than 50K a month work here totally legally.

That she earns a pittance is no ones fault but her own. She certainly values herself as an instructor. She may be a very fine one...problem is that she is working in a market where the guy on the next boat is going to undercut her. So she takes what the market gives her. If she wants to earn more, she can go to Florida, or figure out a way to get customers to pay her more by demonstrating the value of going with her instead some of some unregulated cowboy down the road.

The only way for her salary to go up is to regulate the industry properly, so something she doesn't seem to be advocating.

Edited September 13, 2009 by samran

[Tatsujin]

samran > couldn't agree with you more, I was referring to some of the other posters who have nothing much of substance to add to a conversation . . . much like my own post here I guess lol

Edited September 13, 2009 by Tatsujin

[p_brownstone]

I would imagine very few Tourists come to Thailand just to learn to Dive.

OK, if the opportunity is there, some will want to try – however it’s not the reason they came here in the first place.

If there are fewer Dive Schools Tourists will simply do something else with their time here.

Patrick

Oh - and OP, it's not "tacit approval", it's properly called corruption.

[JUDAS]

I would imagine very few Tourists come to Thailand just to learn to Dive.

OK, if the opportunity is there, some will want to try – however it's not the reason they came here in the first place.

If there are fewer Dive Schools Tourists will simply do something else with their time here.

Patrick

Oh - and OP, it's not "tacit approval", it's properly called corruption.

Actually, Thailand attracts around 550,000 dive tourists per year, a twenty fold increase on 1985 figures.

[p_brownstone]

I would imagine very few Tourists come to Thailand just to learn to Dive.

OK, if the opportunity is there, some will want to try – however it's not the reason they came here in the first place.

If there are fewer Dive Schools Tourists will simply do something else with their time here.

Patrick

Oh - and OP, it's not "tacit approval", it's properly called corruption.

Actually, Thailand attracts around 550,000 dive tourists per year, a twenty fold increase on 1985 figures.

Source?

Patrick

[DickFarang]

I would imagine very few Tourists come to Thailand just to learn to Dive.

OK, if the opportunity is there, some will want to try – however it's not the reason they came here in the first place.

If there are fewer Dive Schools Tourists will simply do something else with their time here.

Patrick

Oh - and OP, it's not "tacit approval", it's properly called corruption.

Actually, Thailand attracts around 550,000 dive tourists per year, a twenty fold increase on 1985 figures.

Do you mean “attracts” or “attracted” ?

I am retired in Pattaya and hardly see any tourists, except some Russians.

[abdulrahman]

It never ceases to amaze me just how much bashing or flaming that goes on here! lol

Within one or two posts of the original, it degenerates into a "you're wrong, I'm right, if you don't like it here, go back to where you came from" back and forth cyclic argument. At least the Mods (thank you) do a good job trying to calm things down and sticking to the facts, but some of you people really do need to get a life!

We are all here in the LOS for different reasons and under different circumstances and we all have our own opinions, if you don't agree with some of those opinions, you "can" keep your opinions to yourself

A very smug opinion,(and some ass kissing to follow)

Other posters, like myself and Mario, have happily pointed out she can stay and work here properly...it isn't rocket science. Plenty of people on salaries lower than 50K a month work here totally legally.

I would not work for a pittancy with a workpermit of 3 month(maybe renevable).

Or without workpermit,at the mercy of the corrupted government officials.

This people are wrong,but I feel for them,because they have no possibility to change the situation.

Oh yes,this is LOL,if you don't like something,go home.

[wolf5370]

Post #1

Dive Professionals are highly trained and often very experienced individuals. It's not like teaching English or something, this is an industry that deals with life and death issues.

Post #7

If you think one or two weeks of intense training is easy than you are better than me.

Erm, teachers may be a little upset here perhaps - with their 4+ years of university degrees, TEFL etc certification, PGCE, etc etc - V's 5 to 10 day 'intensive' course????? - Heck even the TEFL Cert is 4 weeks 'intensive' (120Hrs)!

However, on the original point (putting my hurt feelings aside - sniff) - I think either the charges should be higher to allow for you to be able to afford to be legal, or a cheaper option made available where the benefit to tourism (and hardship to cover with qualified Thais - language barriers?) is obvious/likely.

Can't see it happening though - This is Thailand, "why invest for tomorrow when you can screw for today?" (that was meant to be financially screwing, but maybe carries in a more literal sense too)

[sund]

I would imagine very few Tourists come to Thailand just to learn to Dive.

OK, if the opportunity is there, some will want to try – however it’s not the reason they came here in the first place.

If there are fewer Dive Schools Tourists will simply do something else with their time here.

Patrick

Oh - and OP, it's not "tacit approval", it's properly called corruption.

Sad to hear that you are so badly informed about the diving numbers in thailand,thailand certifies the highest numbers of divers in the world each year!

I have been working with diving all over the world and to the safety issue thailand has among the highest standards in the world.

About the workpermit issue!If you are not lucky to find a seriuos company that sponsors you for one,you can either get it by setting up your own company(if yuo do thet legal you need to have 2million in a thai bank account) So how many will want to do that when you earn from 20,000-60,000 bath/month!!!but of course there is always luupholes and then you have to worry about that if they decide to start checking up all the small companys(i think just a matter of time)

Personally i would like that the industry became more legal,Because i have a lot of friends that are struggeling to become legal they have a great passion for their job and they love the country.

i love thailand and im living here full time and have the greatest job ever and luckely i found a serius dive center that i work for that gave me my workpermit.