Uk Tourist Visa Refusal After 8 Weeks

[brucehosking]

Wow, is 8 weeks the normal turn around for a UK tourist visa?'

(anybody happen to know how long the turn around is for NZ or Aus?)

It took my Thai wife a month or more to get a tourist visa for Australia. We still had to provide all the details of our marriage, financials, letter of support from me etc. We had only been married a couple of months. Seems like it was treated more like a spouse visa than a tourist visa. It never ceases to amaze me how a million brits and 300,000 Australians go to Thailand each year yet the numbers the other way are so off. They treat all Thais like over stayers. it makes me sick. Maybe Thailand should start demanding more from all the foreign tourists to prove they have funds to go traveling to Thailand. Might lose a few backpackers then.....the ones that show up with barely enough to pay for expenses and no travel insurance etc....Its definitely not fair. My wife is currently trying to get a working holiday visa but has now missed out since there are none left - all gone in less than two months. The embassy told her to apply for another tourist visa so we will see how that goes. I don't want to do the spouse visa and neither does she - the process is brutal. I have traveled a lot lived all over - getting all the personal information that goes with that application not to mention the cost is something i will never do. Plus we don't want to live here permanently anyway. I think its discrimination against Thais. If they get a letter of support the person offering the support should be somewhat responsible but of course I know its hard to enforce and would cost money and time etc....you can't win - you just have to keep trying....We would like to do something like 6 months here and then 6 months there for a while but if they won't give a visa its not good.....damages the relationship when you have to spend extended time apart....and if she cant get a visa then you are basically forced to go there where work is hard to get. There has to be a better way. Talk to your local MP they can go to bat for you as well - I got some help from my local MP - they called the embassy for me. Not sure if it helped or not but it came through soon after.

[SyBrown]

potter09 -

I emailed last Wednesday suggesting - very politely - that there may have been an error in the decision making progress, pointing out the relevant facts, and asking they reconsider their decision. Highly unlikely it'll have any effect, but can't hurt to try.

Scully -

Our main proof of relationship is the average five phone calls a day between us. There's also no phone call trail from her side as she rings my phone, i don't answer, then call her back as it's cheaper that way. There's no email trail as she's not got an account - doesn't have internet access and doesn't like internet cafes. We will apply a second time for sure, but after talking to her friends my girl is convinced we should wait three months until our relationship has passed the 1 year mark. However, from reading other people's postings it seems possible to get a tourist visa as long as you've been together for six months.

Yeesipha -

A 10 page introduction letter?! Wow, mine was only a page long. I thought that as the ECO are so busy I'd best keep it brief - while still pointing out the relevant facts of course. I'll make the next one a bit longer, but perhaps not 10 pages ;¬)

Sumrit -

I've known my girl for nearly ten months now, but only seven at the time of applying for the visa. As I've paid for all our travels together in cash I'm not sure how I can prove we were together during my stays in Thailand. I have photographs of course, which I submitted with the application, but specific location and date can't be proved with them. I now have ten months worth of phone bills, bank transfers etc to support the next application and the pile is growing by the month.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head about my stating in my introduction letter that we wanted to try living together for a few months. Too much information, too truthful and I shouldn't have said that. My rationale was that if she was going to stay for a long period of time we should say so rather than saying she wants to come for a month and then staying for six as it might prejudice any future applications. And if she's going to stay for a long period of time I thought I should justify that with a reason. Of course, lack of reason to return to Thailand wasn't the specific reason given for refusal, but maybe they just pick the reasons at random out of a hat.

On paper my girl has very little reason to return to Thailand. She has some land - in her father's name. She has a car - in her uncle's name. She has a job in a restaurant, but her boss demanded 20K baht for a letter stating she could return to her job after her visit to the UK. She quite rightly found that totally unreasonable and wouldn't pay him. Her family is everything to her and she loves her country so would never want to be away for too long, but just stating that doesn't seem to have much power behind it.

As several people have said, the process seems to be just too random. I know of and have read about many people who provided much less compelling evidence than myself and had known their GFs for less time yet were still successful in their applications. It's shocking really as this is real people's lives they are playing with.

A friend suggested to me - as did brucehosking - that I should talk to my MP. My instincts (which haven't been too great so far!) tell me that might be a bit of a heavy handed step to take after one tourist visa refusal. If we were refused a second time for no good reason then I think it's time to talk to the MP. Anybody have any opinions on that?

So for now the plan is to wait and see if my email about there being a mistake in the decision process has an effect. When it doesn't I'll book myself a flight for the end of October/early November. Spend a couple of weeks out there, go to visit my future family-in-law again and take another bunch of photos. Maybe I should include some local newspapers in the pictures to prove the date - like you see in ransom movies? Joking... Then we'll re-apply very early next year, probably get the help of an agent this time to get things right. I wasn't planning another visit for me or to use an agent, the extra expense is really straining the finances, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

In the meantime I'll be tending my Thai barbeque alone and making spicy papaya salad for one.

[barnaby666]

it does seem too random,, after 8 weeks of waiting my gf of 8 months has just recieved her visa.

she has no job in thailand , no house no car no land.

i have no house , rented or owned and i did'nt even use a family house for the application. (just said id be stopping at hotels)

i did'nt supply any evidence of phone calls

my covering letter was just half a page long saying that i would like a holiday together with my new gf

id visited her for just 4 times since november last year

i thought id have no chance in getting a visa, but i thought id try anyway. 8 weeks later and she has a 6 month visa.

maybe it is a lucky dip, it does seem that way, maybe i was lucky this time.

the only thing that i can think of was that im serving in the british army in afghan, i few people on the forum said that would help my case. although i admit it does seem unfair that i get more chance of a visa because im serving in the army.. i suppose it does have it's perks living in the sh*t hole that is Afghan for 6 months. i have little experience with applying for visa's but from reading the forum if i were u id wait a few months and then just re apply. or if money is'nt an issue speak to an agent. best of look for the future, i hope u get the visa.

[7by7]

To issue a visit visa the ECO needs to be satisfied on three main points:-

1) The applicant is a genuine visitor, with a genuine reason to visit the UK.

2) They will be adequately maintained and accommodated whilst in the UK, either from their own resources, those of a sponsor or a combination of both, without recourse to public funds and without working.

3) The applicant will leave the UK when, or before, their visa expires.

It is the last one that causes the most problems for those who do not have 'proper' jobs, own land, etc. However, many couples have obtained visit visas when the Thai partner has had no concrete reason to return simply on the strength of their relationship. They have demonstrated that they are a genuine couple, with firm plans for the future and so the ECO felt that they would not want to jeopardise that future by overstaying a visit visa.

For some reason, it seems that the ECO did not believe this to be so in your case. Why, I can't say without knowing what the refusal notice actually says.

ECO error? Possibly.

Insufficient evidence? Equally possible. Remember, it's not so much quantity that counts as quality.

Something else? Maybe.

You say you have contacted the ECM. This may result in the refusal being overturned, but may not. If not, then I'm afraid that's it for this application as social visit refusals cannot be appealed. Your only option would be to apply again, making sure that you address the specific concerns expressed in the refusal notice.

Contacting your MP may result in some action; but only if the refusal is due to error or maladministration. If the refusal is within the rules, there is nothing your MP can do to overturn it. Remember, too, that whilst it was civil servants who wrote the rules, it was MPs who approved them and made them law.

Please don't take offence at this next bit, I am not implying anything about your girlfriend or your relationship; I am simply supplying an example of why the ECOs can be suspicious.

It is not uncommon for a farang man to meet a girl 'professionally' in a bar. They seem to start a genuine relationship and the man returns home and keeps in contact with the girl, sending her money because she has told him she will stop working in the bar and return home.

Often, this is the case and the girl is genuine. They continue the relationship, marry and have a happy life together.

But sometimes she is not. She gets the man to sponsor a visit visa for her, the aim being that once in his country she will disappear to continue working in her chosen profession, where she can earn in a day what might take her a month to earn in Thailand.

As I said, I am not implying anything about you and your girlfriend, but this is one of the concerns that the ECOs have, especially where the couple have not known each other long yet the man is sending large (for Thailand) amounts of money to the girl.

Of course, most illegals in the UK don't work in prostitution, as this article shows.

Edited September 20, 2009 by 7by7

[TG911]

Any advice on how I can better support our next application? What else can I do other than prove that we speak several times every day, have been places together, and that I financially support her? It's just crazy, I'm not going to send money to a stranger every month am I?

At the time of application we'd been together for just 8 months, next time we apply it'll be getting on for a year so that's in our favour. But if they didn't take the evidence given over 8 months of relationship as being valid are they likely to believe that an extra 4 months of the same kind of evidence proves what they didn't believe before?

Hi SyBrown,

First sorry to hear, guess many here know the frustration and feeling of a declined visa, it just doesn't make sense from your point of view and is unfair.

After going through this and reading an lot over the years, I believe the most important part is to put yourself into the position of the ECO and try to

understand what's going through his mind when evaluating thousands of holiday fling applications ....

You say yourself that at the TIME of the application you have been together for JUST 8 month...I firmly believe that "time" is the most important factor of a successful application. I would like to see the outcome of all previously refused applications if only handed over after a longer period of time proving a relationship, let's say at least 1 year or more, instead of only 3,6 or 8 month. You got to make sure that you weed out your application from what most are holiday flings...I can see the ECO thinking, oh yeah, yet another one and puts it onto the wrong pile to the other hundreds on his desk.

Many things have already been said, just wanted to add another thought, which I think is worth thinking about.

You say of course you are not "sponsoring a stranger every month", hence it must be a genuin relationship.

On the other side ECO could be thinking, why do you need to sponsor a girl who is working, makes her own money and will return to her job after the UK holiday?

Maybe there are too many applications sponsoring girls out of a bar after having met and falling in love on holiday, there are many different views on this, but I can imagine the ECO doesn't think too positive about it.

Anyways, I'm completely on your side, just tried to shed some light into the ECO's thinking, maybe(?), what do I know.

I cut all strings short and married my girl 3 years ago, best thing I ever did, especially since that one visa application doesn't stop here. Imagine the girls would live with you in the UK, you will have a ton of future visa applications for many years to come just to go on holiday anywhere in the world.

We got a huge collection of paperwork collected over the years, never would have thought that ;-)

So, give it time and follow the rules of the game and you will be without doubt successful at the end!

All the best!

Edited September 20, 2009 by TG911

[enquirer]

"I'd be very interested to know how many Thai girls actually do a runner when they get to the UK. Very few I would imagine."

I do know one Thai woman who, while in UK on a student visa, contracted a marriage with a UK man (money changed hands) on the understanding she would be off as soon as all hoops had been jumped through and she had ILR for herself and toddler daughter (from previous relationship, born in UK).

Daughter is now 10 - we played with her yesterday - and mother is still studying and working and on benefits.

So it does happen, but this is the only example I know of. If her history is somehow in the system, I suppose it makes it harder for those who follow, including my son's wife who has just made her spouse visa application from Bangkok.

[d0om4gloom]

Forgive me, I do not know you but then neither did the imigration person who processed your application. From what you said in your original post and some of the responses you later posted it doesn't sound like you did provide evidence of a REAL relationship.

We have to believe the office was in fact refusing your gf on this specific point as thats what they told you. However, everything you said suggests that YOU were the one behind the application not your GF !!! Simply sending money and supporting someone, even visiting someone a couple of times might very well demonstrate YOUR intentions towards the relationship but it most certainly does not demonstrate HERS.

My personal advice to you both is on your next attempt just change the way you are approaching the application : 100's of pages of documents wont help you. You doing everything will not help you. In your case using an agency might help the way you present the application but generally be aware any agency will do nothing you cannot do yourself.

Its all about your GF not you.

Let me finish by saying my gf got her visa applying directly in similar circumstances to yours although i'd known her slightly longer and had visited more and longer. What i believe truly got her the visa while we know others were refused was that she was totally believeable, her story fitted and was honest.

[Lancashirelad]

Sorry, but i really can't get my head around any connection between TOURIST VISA and RELATIONSHIP.

Suppose i wish to invite a good (fictitious) Thai male friend i've only known for 3 months? Not that i do, just an example.

As for someone submitting 150 pages, i really wouldn't be suprised if it didn't get looked through.

Any visa application is about THEM not YOU. 2 - 3 pages about you is more than enough: just an outline covering letter and proof of your ability to provide accommodation & adequate finance.

Phone records: what if you use a Pay As You Go phone? Easy to call tilac cheaply like that now...... just call a private call routing co. at standard local rate.

Where's Scouse got to? He was so knowlegeable on this stuff.

OP, i hope you get a positive response to your email.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Lancashirelad

[hagler]

Perhaps the "backgrounds" done by the immigration people have caused them to refuse the visa. You may want to ask your girlfriend if she has ever been refused before or has previously made applications with any one elkse. Or does she have a family history of refusals?

The immigration people won't tell you but rest assured that they will have "red flags" on their systems.

Best of luck.

[Scully]

Perhaps the "backgrounds" done by the immigration people have caused them to refuse the visa. You may want to ask your girlfriend if she has ever been refused before or has previously made applications with any one elkse. Or does she have a family history of refusals?

The immigration people won't tell you but rest assured that they will have "red flags" on their systems.

Best of luck.

If the ops girlfriend had been refused before she would have had to state this on the application form. If she didn't tell the truth then she would have been refused the visa with a ten year ban, so highly unlikely.

Also family history of refusals should have buggger all to do with it.

Anyway I contacted my MP and his advice was a load of tripe, he told my to go down the fiance visa route. This is not what I wanted after just one year, so just beware your MP can't really do F all.

[bobrussell]

I do not agree that an MP is of no value but despite the poor publicity recently aimed at them they are usually quite busy (if they are any good) and I suspect they will not be overly impressed (or put in a lot of work) with helping to get a tourist/visit visa for someone. Family related problems, hopefully, will receive more attention and action!

We have been helped out considerably in the last 6 months by our MP!!!!

[phibunmike]

There is no right of appeal on a normal tourist visa. You can email them and point out that you included the evidence, but don't hold your breathe. Better to re-apply. Make sure you write a good covering letter outlining your relationship and pointing out the evidence. Don't expect the ECO to read through the 150 pages you handed in to find things out, you have to guide them through it, or pay the price.

My wife's first UK tourist visa application was refused; we were told, but the consular officer, that we had a the right to an appeal, which is free, but can take up to 9 months. We were advised to re-apply and supply more documentation.

The procedure is immensely annoying, and the decision making seems quite arbitrary. Actually, embarrassing. I feel sorry for the OP, I, like many others, know how angry this can make you.

Brit and 7by7 have explained well. You have to convince them that she:

1) has sufficient funds for the trip;

2) has sufficient access to funds for emergency medical care so as not to become a burden on the NHS;

3) will return to Thailand in the allotted period, i.e. has something concrete to return to;

4) will not take up illegal employment or studies whilst in UK.

Swallow your anger, learn from the first application, and beat them next time. I also included letters from my mother (looking forward to my wife's visit for a 2 week holiday) and daughter (looking forward to her holiday with us when we returned to Thailand).

Good luck,

Mike

[7by7]

Sorry, but i really can't get my head around any connection between TOURIST VISA and RELATIONSHIP

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as a 'tourist' visa!

What there is is a 'general visitor' visa; which as you can see from the application form is for those visiting the UK as a tourist, to visit friends or some other purpose not covered by any other type of non-settlement visa.

In cases where applicant and sponsor are claiming a romantic relationship, particularly where the applicant has no concrete reason to return, that there is a strong relationship often convinces the ECO that this is a genuine applicant who will not 'do a runner' and so will return.

[Lancashirelad]

As a point of interest on this one. If the applicant has had a previous request refused, but it was for a different country and they omit to mention this on the new application, is there any cross referencing goes on? Surely they cannot check with every embassy unless its all computerized?

[thaibeachlovers]

Any advice on how I can better support our next application? What else can I do other than prove that we speak several times every day, have been places together, and that I financially support her? It's just crazy, I'm not going to send money to a stranger every month am I?

At the time of application we'd been together for just 8 months, next time we apply it'll be getting on for a year so that's in our favour. But if they didn't take the evidence given over 8 months of relationship as being valid are they likely to believe that an extra 4 months of the same kind of evidence proves what they didn't believe before?

Hi SyBrown,

First sorry to hear, guess many here know the frustration and feeling of a declined visa, it just doesn't make sense from your point of view and is unfair.

After going through this and reading an lot over the years, I believe the most important part is to put yourself into the position of the ECO and try to

understand what's going through his mind when evaluating thousands of holiday fling applications ....

You say yourself that at the TIME of the application you have been together for JUST 8 month...I firmly believe that "time" is the most important factor of a successful application. I would like to see the outcome of all previously refused applications if only handed over after a longer period of time proving a relationship, let's say at least 1 year or more, instead of only 3,6 or 8 month. You got to make sure that you weed out your application from what most are holiday flings...I can see the ECO thinking, oh yeah, yet another one and puts it onto the wrong pile to the other hundreds on his desk.

Many things have already been said, just wanted to add another thought, which I think is worth thinking about.

You say of course you are not "sponsoring a stranger every month", hence it must be a genuin relationship.

On the other side ECO could be thinking, why do you need to sponsor a girl who is working, makes her own money and will return to her job after the UK holiday?

Maybe there are too many applications sponsoring girls out of a bar after having met and falling in love on holiday, there are many different views on this, but I can imagine the ECO doesn't think too positive about it.

Anyways, I'm completely on your side, just tried to shed some light into the ECO's thinking, maybe(?), what do I know.

I cut all strings short and married my girl 3 years ago, best thing I ever did, especially since that one visa application doesn't stop here. Imagine the girls would live with you in the UK, you will have a ton of future visa applications for many years to come just to go on holiday anywhere in the world.

We got a huge collection of paperwork collected over the years, never would have thought that ;-)

So, give it time and follow the rules of the game and you will be without doubt successful at the end!

All the best!

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said to look at it from the point of view of the ECO. They probably see thousands of similar applications, and as others have said, need proof that the GF has a reason to return. They have no way of knowing if the GF is genuine in the relationship or not, and the visa is about her, not the sponsor.

My GF of 6 months wants to come with me when I go back next time, but I don't think we've been together long enough to get a visa based on our relationship. I'm not even going to try till we've been together at least a year, and of that, at least 3 months continuous living together. Anything less than that, in my book, just qualifies as a holiday romance.

SyBrown, perhaps you haven't been in Thailand much, but sadly, there are probably thousands of farangs sending money to GFs who turn out to be strangers. To an official who knows nothing about you and her, other than what you told us, she might be just another Thai girl who landed a sucker ( I'm NOT saying that applies in your case, just that it happens a lot ).

Anyway, I hope it works out for you eventually, and that it is worth it.

Does anyone know the success rate of Thai women ( without visible means of income, or property ) who apply for visas without sponsors, purely as tourists?

[learningcurve]

As a point of interest on this one. If the applicant has had a previous request refused, but it was for a different country and they omit to mention this on the new application, is there any cross referencing goes on? Surely they cannot check with every embassy unless its all computerized?

If a visa is refused (from any country) the said embassy will place a small embassy stamp and reference number on the last page of the passport. The embassy's ask to see 'all previous passports'. If a passport has been lost or stolen and the ECO is suspicious, he can then conatct the other embassy's and check on any other applications, this will add time to the application process of course.

[7by7]

As Eff1n2ret says, the UK places a small stamp in the back of the passport of all applicants, with a mark to say whether the application was successful or not. Other countries may do the same.

Is there some form of international database of applicants? Probably. Do ECOs check on this database? Not every applicant, obviously; but a random selection is probable. Particularly, as Eff1n2ret says, if the applicant says they have lost their previous passport.

Question 6.3 on form VAF1:

"Have you ever been refused a visa for any country, including the UK?"

From the declaration signed by all applicants:

"I am aware that it is an offence under the Immigration Act 1971 (as amended) to make a statement which I know to be false, or not believe to be true, in order to obtain a visa/entry clearance to the UK. I am also aware that my application will be automatically refused and I may be banned from going to the UK for 10 years if I use a false document, lie or withhold relevant information."

Being refused a previous application, to the UK or anywhere else, is not grounds for refusal of a future application; lying about it is!

[ExoticMatter]

Wow, is 8 weeks the normal turn around for a UK tourist visa?'

(anybody happen to know how long the turn around is for NZ or Aus?)

No its not.A couple of the TW's family got their's in less than a week for a funeral here in the UK and have just arrived.

[Bearnagh]

This is rather less serious than some of the sorry tales above, but I thought it worth adding into the mix for your further collective edification...

My (Thai) wife and I were in VFS in Bangkok last week where she was handing in her application for a visitor's visa to the UK. I waited outside (wan't allowed in.) I spotted a sign on the wall saying something to the effect that all briefcases and satchels etc., would be searched for misuse or removal of "classified material". Fair enough I thought...

When my wife came back out after finishing her business, she told me that they (they being Thai security guards at VFS) had searched her briefcase and took her (sealed and unopened) sandwich, which she'd bought for her lunch, away from her. She didn't get it back either. The reason given: "No food to be eaten in here"!

If she'd walked into their office eating the thing I'd have understood... but a sealed packaged sandwich in the bottom of her briefcase??

Come on VFS... have you really SO LITTLE to do in your day?

[ExoticMatter]

I prefer to refer to them as VAC as in short for VACUUM

[theoldgit]

When my wife came back out after finishing her business, she told me that they (they being Thai security guards at VFS) had searched her briefcase and took her (sealed and unopened) sandwich, which she'd bought for her lunch, away from her. She didn't get it back either. The reason given: "No food to be eaten in here"!

Those security guards have to eat, they do not need to leave their posts to buy their own food when they can steal from the likes of your wife.

Me thinks that it would be a good wheeze to make them a sandwich from my own special recipe.

[DLock]

I am not officially married to my "wife", but we have had Visa's approved for USA, Australia and UK among other, usually within a week.

Some good advice on here, but one thing that I feel can't be overlooked is building the credibility of your gf, and there are a few things she can do to help herself.

By that I mean, simple things like :

- ID card that matches the address where she really lives

- Tabien Baan with her name in it, of the place where she actually lives

- Valid drivers or motorcycle license

- Actual bank account that shows regular inputs (preferably from her job, not you)

- Letter stating she had a reputable job for x months

- Letter from the bank manager that states the last 6 months average in the account (assuming she has an average)

- Copy of the bankbook

- Dress appropriately on the day of the interview or submission

- Take control of the process, dont just be a stooge.

Withe respect, this is general observations, not aimed at the OP as I have no clue if he had all these. But almost all of these cost nothing, but build a profile of someone that is responsible, is credible and not just a lucky, lazy, sponored girl.

I agree with a lot of the posters, and having been at Embassy's a few times, I see the kind of 2-week tourists and the "love of thier life" applying for visa's, dressed in shorts and singlets with tattoos exposed...on the girl that is.

It's a game of percentages in my opinion, and there are lots of small things that have a big difference. It will also come down to that person on that day, and what happend to them before they read your file. There is a human "random" element for sure.

Good luck.