Pad Rally To Demand Govt Rid Disputed Territory Near Temple Of Cambodians

[mca]

Could you repeat that again in English?

[Plus]

Reds were not there, no need to bring them into this topic,

As opposed to when a thread goes on about red shirt violence and then somebody pops up with how well behaved the yellow shirts are in comparison.

Feel free to complain when it happens.

So far reds have nothing to do with this incident. Unless they were manipulating the locals to erect those barricades.

[featography]

^ No, the Thai army should sit on their hands and let the Cambodian army shoot these idiots while they are on Cambodian soil.

That would not be a very good idea. If one Thai citizen whever they ar egets shot by Cambodian troops then all hel_l will break loose with a prbably instant reply from the Thai military.

The best thing would be for the Thai military to just prevent them reaching the border.

That would be a good thing? Have the army prevent the yellows from doing something senseless and then they get blamed for 'taking sides' and another can of worms gets opened?

The army is NOT the people's nanny and the silly buggers trying to make political hay out of the Preah Vihear 'reclamation' get what they deserve if they step over the border.

I mean the yellow's made the last red governments acquiescence over this temple issue sound like 'treason'. So what is their reasoning now that they have their preferred man in charge?

Not the peoples nanny? They are sure happy enough to babysit anything remotly red in Bangkok these days.

Its much safer babysitting smiling amiable Red Shirts that typically make a Rally a family outing, than trying to babysit the Yellow shirts.

[mca]

The yellows had nothing to do with the songkran mayhem but they're always put up as an example on a red shirt discussion of how ugly the red shirts are and how nice and polite the PAD are. As I've mentioned,on this forum what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If it's not then there's really no point in having any osrt of discussion really.

This isn't aimed at you Plus but lot of people on this forum have had their naive little bubble burst as to how "nice" the yellows are. Their justified loathing of Thaskin blinds them to the slightest possibility that anybody who is anti Thaksin could possibly be wrong in their actions. Yesterday put a big hole in their "red shirt thugs" argument by showing that all sides of the divide are capable of violence. Some are even attempting to find some justification for PADs actions.

Like I've said before, if they were a bunch of red shirts with exactly the same agenda and acting exactly the same way the Thaivisa wolves would be out in force denouncing them. Could you in all honesty disagree with me on that point?

[Plus]

if they were a bunch of red shirts with exactly the same agenda and acting exactly the same way

You mean if reds were peacefully marching somewhere and locals put up barricades to stop them? Apart from blue shirts that no one supports here, I can't recollect any of such cases.

I also don't think many people would support disrupting a peaceful red rally.

I think you got carried away a little bit - the villagers didn't have any rights to physically blockade PAD there. Don't forget that eventually the army negotiated a way out - let PAD read their statement at Pha Mor Ee Daeng gate and fuc_k off. The clash should have been avoided and those who provoked it should be held responsible.

Also keep in mind that Chamlong said none of the five PAD leaders had anything to do with this rally, Veera Somkwamkid has to be held solely responsible on PAD side there, not the overall movement.

[Hardy99]

I used to have respect for the PAD. Now, they're just a bunch of power-hungry clowns making fools of themselves.

Any yellows or reds that want to duke it out, let them rent a stadium, bring in whatever weapons they want, and let them all dual to the death. The last remaining living person can then write a book about it. Otherwise, I have no pateince for any of them.

I do not think the local residents that want PAD to stay away are "reds" per se, although this may force them to affiliate with the reds if the government doesn't intervene to stop the madness. If the local population is coping and able to live peacefully as this matter gets resolved, then really PAD should take the hint and not try and start a war.

Some idiot is going to step on a landmine. And some idiot is going to take a shot at a Cambodian soldier who will most likely toss a grenade back. Just plain stupidity here.

There is no reason to bring the reds in this game... they protest in peace and freedom for a democratic Thailand whilst the "yellows" are crimes who violate anything if they get the chance to do so! The only thing they want is causing troubles and make problems. Thailand is gone hurt about these yellow restless disturbers and they go on - first the goverment house, then the Aiports, now neighboring countries.. what's next ???

[Hardy99]

widespread urban support

Here's your answer what gives PAD its power. They represent significant amount of people with concerns about the country, without any sign of self-interest. They might be wrong and they might be rough, but they are sincere, and they are the best you've got.

Or you can go with elites plans on how to proceed, or the army with the likes of Saprang, or PTP led by Chalerm, or the red mob directed from Dubai.

Take you pick.

I thought the PAD were the thugs powered by the elite? not the "significant amount of people with concerns about the country". If they were concerned about the country, they wouldn't continue to create unrest, which is then shows in the evening news around the world and dropping Thailand further down the list in countries preferred by tourists, as they did when they took the airports and government buildings hostage.

I highly doubt they're "sincere" or "the best you've got". I'm pretty sure they're the worst we've got right now.

YouTube Videos from Thai TV:

YEs thats the absolutely truth you write helvetian... look around whats happening in Thailand! But how can it get better with a Minister who thinks it is pleasure to seizure Airports and bring troubles to hundreds of thousands people (Thai and foreign)... or insult and swear the neighboring PM?! I would not wonder when the power behind this stupid yellow actions is coming out from the same (FM)"corner". May be thats the reason why there is no ISA in that area to prevent Thailand from a possible war with Cambodia. Are there some people acting who like to cause big troubles to refract from the incapacity of the present government...??

Who knows... but shure it will not need much time and we can read the "news" that Dr.Thaksin is the one who pays billions of baht to the cambodians to seizure "Thai" territory, when there is a need for someone doing bad - thank god - they (present government) can always count on Mr. Thaksin, where ever he is...

[Hardy99]

Reds were not there, no need to bring them into this topic,

As opposed to when a thread goes on about red shirt violence and then somebody pops up with how well behaved the yellow shirts are in comparison.

Feel free to complain when it happens.

So far reds have nothing to do with this incident. Unless they were manipulating the locals to erect those barricades.

"So far reds have nothing to do with this incident" YES, THATS THE FACT ! and

"Unless they were manipulating the locals to erect those barricades" thats a perverse assumption!!

Will your next writing be that Mr.Thaksin has send them millions of baht to do so...

[stub]

There's still an issue of Cambodian settlers on the disputed land, and of Cambodian troops shooting any Thai that steps in there.

If Cambodia recognizes "disputed" status they should move their civilians out of there themselves, without provoking Thai nationalist feelings.

Or Thailand could just grant the residents Thai citizenship. Its not their fault which governments decided to give them id cards - purely chance based on which side of an imaginary line their birth got registered. No wonder the locals want the protesters to go away - when your family is straddling a border you don't want outsiders coming along stirring up trouble and telling you your great aunt should be evicted because the border happened to move a couple of decades ago, somehow transforming her into the enemy.

[mca]

if they were a bunch of red shirts with exactly the same agenda and acting exactly the same way

You mean if reds were peacefully marching somewhere and locals put up barricades to stop them?

I think you got carried away a little bit - the villagers didn't have any rights to physically blockade PAD there.

Didn't the PAD also break through police barriers though?

[Hardy99]

if they were a bunch of red shirts with exactly the same agenda and acting exactly the same way

You mean if reds were peacefully marching somewhere and locals put up barricades to stop them?

I think you got carried away a little bit - the villagers didn't have any rights to physically blockade PAD there.

Didn't the PAD also break through police barriers though?

mca you cant see clear anymore about the yellow color must have come in to your eyes. If two people do same it is not the same... clear! When red shirt sympathisants "rallye" they get troubles, get fined ans punished (3 farmers in Chiangrai area for "locking" a road". That happens because the present government must pay the bill for the unfair "set in" by elite support and yellow mob activities... Dou you think when the "YELLOWS" rallye the street is free for anybody who wants to pass. Two colors, two rules, two laws... (money money money....)

[Plus]

Or Thailand could just grant the residents Thai citizenship. Its not their fault which governments decided to give them id cards - purely chance based on which side of an imaginary line their birth got registered. No wonder the locals want the protesters to go away - when your family is straddling a border you don't want outsiders coming along stirring up trouble and telling you your great aunt should be evicted because the border happened to move a couple of decades ago, somehow transforming her into the enemy.

Afaik, they are squatters, they were not born there, they moved in when tourism trade boomed.

Didn't the PAD also break through police barriers though?

The police has no right to block a peaceful rally either. Also keep in mind that there was a stalemate for several hours during which provincial governor tried to persuade PAD to abandon their plan, and then hel_l broke lose.

I think local officials and the police haven't got enough experience with crowd control yet. The wanted PAD to stop, pack up, and return where they came from with nothing. Like that has ever worked with any demonstration.

[mca]

I think local officials and the police haven't got enough experience with crowd control yet. The wanted PAD to stop, pack up, and return where they came from with nothing. Like that has ever worked with any demonstration.

Something we can agree on mate.

[harpoon]

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admin removed my posting rights

[hammered]

BBC showed people with machetes and sling shots. It wasnt clear if they were locals or PAD. They looked like farmers but could have been either side.

Anyway now the spin starts

[Rumfoord]

BBC showed people with machetes and sling shots. It wasnt clear if they were locals or PAD. They looked like farmers but could have been either side.

Anyway now the spin starts

Meanwhile, 500 local villagers from Tambon Sao Thong Chai gathered at the Phumisarol village school to rally against PAD. They called on PAD leaders not to create violence in Si Sa Ket province.

Mr Veera gave police and the villagers until 1pm today to open way for PAD protesters to enter Preah Vihear national park.

If they fail to comply with the demand, PAD would use force to break to the police lines to go to Pha Mor I-Daeng as planned.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/15...r-national-park

[webfact]

Thai PM expresses regret over clashes near temple; Protesters read statements

BANGKOK, Sept 20 (TNA) -- Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said Sunday he is saddened over clashes between protesters and local residents, and police who tried to end the discord near the disputed Thai-Cambodian border zone adjacent to the ancient temple of Preah Vihear which left many persons injured on Saturday.

Meanwhile, 30 protesters of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) early Sunday read out two statements at Pha Mor E-Dang, close to the disputed area, claiming Thai sovereignty in the matter and asserting the demand that the disputed area around Preah Vihear temple belongs to Thailand.

Veera Somkwamkid, a leader of the PAD protesters, told a news conference that Thai Army chief Gen Anupong Paochinda should use martial law as a tool to push back the Cambodians to return to their homeland.

In his weekly television and radio address, Mr. Abhisit said his government is not sitting idly over the disputed 4.6-square-kilometre area and that negotiations continue with the Cambodian government which will lead to an eventual troop withdrawal from the area.

Several dozen PAD protesters and villagers living in Si Sa Ket province and police were injured in Saturday's clash.

Emphasising that Thailand has not lost its sovereignty in the area, Mr. Abhisit said the border problem is being solved through negotiations and that Thailand would be impacted if clashes occurred and it would also affect relations with its neighbour as well as the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

Both Thailand and Cambodia are ASEAN members. Security officials permitted the demonstrators to read statement so that the situation could return to normal, said Mr. Abhisit, adding that the protesters should end their activities after reading them.

Sunday morning, 30 PAD protesters marched to Pha Mor E-Dang and read three statements focusing on the PAD opposition to Cambodian nationals building houses and shops in the disputed area.

The International Court of Justice ruled in 1962 that the Preah Vihear temple belongs to Cambodia. Tensions along the Thai-Cambodian border, especially at the disputed area, have been seen after the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) granted Cambodia's application for Preah Vihear temple to be designated a World Heritage Site in July 2008. (TNA)

-- TNA 2009/09/20

[G54]

Where is our favourite 'Yellow Shirt' defender Jingthing on this topic??

OOps.

<------ me, hides behind a red shirt for protection

[Insight]

This really hasn't done the PAD any favours IMHO. The only saving grace is that it appears to be a small number of them - "splinter group" if you like, which they may argue doesn't represent the PAD's original ideology.

Damage done regardless.

[ballpoint]

Where is our favourite 'Yellow Shirt' defender Jingthing on this topic??

Can't you red shirt supporters get it into your heads that being anti red does not automatically mean being pro yellow? You don't have to support either one, and would be fully justified in condemning them both following these events. Unfortunately, the more rabid red supporters fail to see this, and adopt a belligerant "if you aint red you must be yellow" attitude, that is the single biggest cause of the current divide in the country.

Edited September 20, 2009 by ballpoint

[animatic]

I think local officials and the police haven't got enough experience with crowd control yet. The wanted PAD to stop, pack up, and return where they came from with nothing. Like that has ever worked with any demonstration.

Something we can agree on mate.

I'll second that.

The whole thing with these groups is not how they started out acting

but how they are acting in the here and now.

[EffectiveAnger]

What is this "disputed territory" everyone keeps refering to? Both countries have asked that this land division be decided upon by international courts, right? They have consistently given the temple to Cambodia. It's the entrance on the Thai border, that's the problem. The land outside of this temple is littered with landmines and it's not the big dispute. In fact, I'm reading that few people care aboutthose areas because they are so dangerous that nobody whats to go there.

What gives the PAD the right to violently break down official Royal Thai police and military barricades in an effort to trespass on Cambodian land? Not to mention the fact that they were armed with guns and all sorts of weapons. Plenty of laws broken there! Did they bring their passports with them and get Cambodian visas? Probably not. This was just raw hostility, IMO. I think they intended to use force. This certainly wouldn't be their first, second, third, fourth, fifth ... time. I've lost count of the number of times they've crossed the line from being peaceful to all out militant.

[Credo]

They should have let the villagers handle the protesters. They have more experience in herding buffaloes.

[G54]

Where is our favourite 'Yellow Shirt' defender Jingthing on this topic??

Can't you red shirt supporters get it into your heads that being anti red does not automatically mean being pro yellow? You don't have to support either one, and would be fully justified in condemning them both following these events. Unfortunately, the more rabid red supporters fail to see this, and adopt a belligerant "if you aint red you must be yellow" attitude, that is the single biggest cause of the current divide in the country.

And where have I said I am a Red shirt supporter?

I was being humorous as J seems to be on all the posts about Yellows n Reds. (Hopefully J would have seen the humour that you missed)

[webfact]

YELLOW SHIRTS RALLY

PAD vows to uphold Thai sovereignty over disputed aera

By The Nation

Published on September 21, 2009

Yellow-shirt activist Veera Somkwamkid yesterday vowed to uphold Thai sovereignty over 4.6 square kilometres of terrain near Preah Vihear Temple claimed by Cambodia. Veera also threatened to take legal action against officials condoning the encroachment.

Veera also threatened to take legal action against officials condoning the encroachment.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said his government was trying to resolve border problems via the legal process and not force.

Former premier Thaksin Shinawatra said on Twitter that Preah Vihear actually does belong to Cambodia by a decision of the International Court of Justice.

He accused the government of favouritism for letting the yellow shirts, who clashed with local villagers in Si Sa Ket on Saturday, read out a statement reaffirming Thailand's dominion over the temple area.

Local villagers had tried to block access to the area by the yellow shirts.

To pacify the rival groups, authorities allowed Veera and about 30 yellow shirts to climb up to Pha Mor-I-Daeng, a cliff inside the Phra Wiharn National Park located in Kantharalak district opposite the temple, to read the declaration.

"We Thai patriots want to declare our intent to form a people's network to restore Thai sovereignty to the surrounding areas of Prasat Phra Wiharn," Veera said.

He pledged to pursue every legal means to reclaim Thai territory. He also warned officials that they would be penalised if they were caught involved in the territorial violations.

He went on to complain against the Cambodian government for allowing Cambodian villagers and soldiers to settle and build a road on Thai soil.

He called for an immediate withdrawal by Cambodia from Thai property. He urged the Thai military to take action under martial law to repel the transgression.

The five co-leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy have remained in close contact with Veera and the people's network over the temple issue, PAD spokesman Suriyasai Katasila said.

The PAD fully backed the attempts to protect Thai territorial integrity and was not back-pedalling from Veera as alleged, he said.

The scuffle between the villagers and yellow shirts was instigated by the authorities, he said, adding that the yellow shirts were not going on the warpath to recover land lost to neighbouring countries.

"We agree with the option for a negotiated settlement of the border dispute and do not want war, but the government must be clear about the timetable and guidelines for negotiations," he said.

Abhisit said police were trying to mediate between the rival groups but the running battle broke out because the barricades were inadequate.

He insisted that Thailand has not surrendered sovereignty over the disputed areas and that the two countries have already agreed to forge a peaceful settlement.

He said his government had no hidden agenda but just the desire to safeguard Thai territory.

He admitted, however, that several border issues were too sensitive to bring up in public, so interested parties should hold discreet discussions with the government in order to update themselves on the status.

Democrat MP Boonyod Sukthinthai said Veera and the PAD should soften their stance on the temple issue in order to avoid inflaming the stand-off.

"It looks like Thais are fighting Thais and becoming the laughing stock for Cambodians," he said.

-- The Nation 2009/09/21

[tig28]

And they even stated that they would fight everyone in their way.

People "in their way" do not come with flowers, so what do you expect?

PAD shouldn't have provoked the locals with their rally, but the locals shouldn't have tried to force PAD to abandon it either.

Don't get carried away with blame game - the best scenario would have been PAD peacefully rallying on Thai soil and their concerns conveyed to the Thai and Cambodian military.

Now the opportunity is lost. Who thwarted it, and what was the purpose?

Was the point to prove that PAD is violent? That would seem like a provocation if not outright setup. I hope the locals were just stupid and didn't know what they were doing, and probably still don't.

And it would be a scandal if there was some outside influence to lure PAD into a fight. Those bloody invisible hands, or invisible bloody hands - both fit.

PLUS has certainly got some insightful points here!!!

It blindingly obvious that PAD was intent on "peacefully rallying on Thai soil" and was provoked into very restrained and controlled violence by those stupid locals --- who did not know what they were doing.

They were certainly trying to set up PAD. The likelihood/certainty of some outside influence to lure PAD into a fight is obvious to all but the blind.

Just because they live here in Si Saket is no excuse for these locals to oppose PAD who only want to help them and improve their lives.

SHAME ON THEM!

[Xangsamhua]

Democrat MP Boonyod Sukthinthai said Veera and the PAD should soften their stance on the temple issue in order to avoid inflaming the stand-off.

"It looks like Thais are fighting Thais and becoming the laughing stock for Cambodians," he said.

Hear, hear! And it makes PAD look like a bunch of jingoist goons. (But, perhaps that's just a Western way of seeing things.)

[Credo]

They are certainly showing themselves to be just as big a pain in the backside as the redshirts. Of course, the apologists will tell us that it didn't happen in Bangkok and therefore it doesn't really matter.

[Plus]

For umpteenth time - it wasn't PAD who provoked the fight, PAD had every right to demonstrate.

Who were those idiots who thought PAD had to be stopped by force?

What is this "disputed territory" everyone keeps refering to? Both countries have asked that this land division be decided upon by international courts, right? They have consistently given the temple to Cambodia. It's the entrance on the Thai border, that's the problem. The land outside of this temple is littered with landmines and it's not the big dispute.

I hope not everybody in this thread as misinformed as this poster.

The land outside the temple is PRECISELY the problem. 4.6 sq km of it. Court ruling only covered the temple itself, not the surrounding areas in dispute.

Landmines or not, but Cambodians built a settlement there together with the temple and a road.

Both countries lay claim to those areas, but only Cambodians dared to actually use them as their own.

What is wrong with PAD, or anyone else, asking the govt why that was allowed to happen and what they govt is going to do about it. Democrat's response that it is a sensitive issue that shouldn't be brought in public is reasonable, now they have to explain what they are doing to PAD leaders who would in turn convey it to the people.

[Rideau]

For umpteenth time - it wasn't PAD who provoked the fight, PAD had every right to demonstrate.

Who were those idiots who thought PAD had to be stopped by force?

What is this "disputed territory" everyone keeps refering to? Both countries have asked that this land division be decided upon by international courts, right? They have consistently given the temple to Cambodia. It's the entrance on the Thai border, that's the problem. The land outside of this temple is littered with landmines and it's not the big dispute.

I hope not everybody in this thread as misinformed as this poster.

The land outside the temple is PRECISELY the problem. 4.6 sq km of it. Court ruling only covered the temple itself, not the surrounding areas in dispute.

Landmines or not, but Cambodians built a settlement there together with the temple and a road.

Both countries lay claim to those areas, but only Cambodians dared to actually use them as their own.

What is wrong with PAD, or anyone else, asking the govt why that was allowed to happen and what they govt is going to do about it. Democrat's response that it is a sensitive issue that shouldn't be brought in public is reasonable, now they have to explain what they are doing to PAD leaders who would in turn convey it to the people.

Right on, Plus. You've got to the point!