Has Thailand Made Progress? Thaksin Taunts

[Siripon]

The coup was welcomed with flowers for the soldiers and people posing with their children on the tanks.

You can say that about almost every coup in the Land of Smiles. It does not prove anything.

Not true, the coup of 1991 was greeted with massive indifference, after the constitution of 1997 was promulgated no one wanted another coup. Thaksin unfortunately made that necessary.

[mca]

less cover-ups of atrocities, such as the Tak Bai incident, where nearly 100 young Muslim men died while in military custody.

Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm.

It happened in a small provincial court in Songkla which has nothing to do with Abhisit whatsoever.

Of course. But as a man (well, not just a man, he's the Prime Minister for God's sake) who is viewed by many as the potential savior of Thailand after the Thaksin years his silence was deafening on something that makes the phrase "a gross miscarriage of justice" look like a lightweight description.

Here's a link to a letter sent to the Attorney General by the Asian Human Rights Commission on the matter. Look who it's CC'd to.

http://facthai.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/ca...i-killers-ahrc/

Now if the PM can't have a "friendly word" in a few ears about how the inquiry verdict and some of the outlandish statements made might not be correct then what hope for the rest of Thailand or the future?

Red, yellow, blue, democrat, TRT, PPP, whoever. It don't mean a thing.

The boys with the tanks and their buddies hold sway here and it looks like Khun Mark hasn't forgotten it.

[reallyok]

Q: Would Thailand become more of a 'democracy' than it is now with Thaksin at the helm?

A: No.

Q: Can the current coalition government lead by the Democrat Party lead to the country to some sort of reconciliation?

A: No.

The ongoing power struggle has left this country in shambles, it's not even funny. A real mess LOS has become. I believe something dramatic will happen in the 'not too distant future' that will change Thailand forever, and for the better. I can't tell you what it is, it's just a gut feeling I have.

Enough politics for today... Time for some EPL football! LATER.

I agree with you. Been saying so for a while. Famous for it.

As for the gut feeling, you are perceiving a lot of non-obvious things, this is how intuition works. I have the same feeling, something is approaching a denouement and I think I know what it is who will be gone.

Who says that Democracy is best for Thailand. I would'nt exactly call Singapore a democracy and just look at the wondeful position that they are in . Every man jack of them are contented with life in that beautiful place.

And i believe that Thaksin and Lee are good friends. If he were to come back and use Singapore as a template, Thailand would surely be the shining light of Asia.................. So maybe , just maybe !!

[animatic]

Hitler killed many millions of innocent people for their religious beliefs and for being gay.

Thaksin tried to get rid of a few thousand speed and heroin dealers. The comparisons end there.

Anyone who tries to compare the two leaders is sick in the head.

Well, did you see the "various times in his life", line?

No of course not, or the argument might have made sense to you.

Provided you have more than a cursory knowledge of 'early Hitler'

and not just late Hitler; ie the sweep of his his rise and fall.

These T/H comparisons are from the 30's, not the early 40's.

What Hitler did later is the end lesson of WHY to never let

similar personalities gain total control of a nation.

Hubris and total control with an out of control ego are dangerous,

as Hitler shows so clearly. What direction Thaksin might have gone?...

well fortunately, so far, we won't be subjected to an answer.

But to draw parallels between one who finally went round the twist BEFORE he did,

and one who was prevented from having total control of a nation, while

surrounded by sycophants, and showing mental derangements, is not a useless exercise.

Those who refuse or can't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Have a nice life.

Comparing almost any politician to Hitler is just plain stupid.

You can pretend all you want about how he might have turned out, but you don't have a crystal ball. Thaksin has never done anything remotely as evil as Hitler and all indications are that he never would have.

Why don't you call him Darth Vader’s twin brother as long as you are just making things up?

Then why does this keep coming up? Oh that's right you think any one who does this is STUPID...

well that's great debating etiquette.

Comparing any politician to Hitler of the late 20's or 30's is a viable juxtapostion.

Just because we NOW, in hindsight, know how bad he went,

does not in ANY WAY invalidate making a comparison with him before he did.

[Ulysses G.]

Twist, spin and rationalize all you want, Thaksin is no Hitler and you are no Einstein.

[Plus]

...there is a long standing conspiracy of silence amount some of the upper echeleons of society. Under Thaksin, the noses in the trough changed and the other piggys started to squeal.

If that theory was true, than why piggies who where squeezed out after the coup haven't came up with any substantial accusations?

and implicate themselves ?

In what? Corruption after they have been shafted? It's not like they can't find receptive ears.

Yesterday PPP tried to oust ABHISIT because his Interior Minister's children hold shares in a company that got govt contracts. They say as a PM he must be held responsible.

Pathetic.

I bet they would pay millions for some real dirt on Democrats.

Here's a link to a letter sent to the Attorney General by the Asian Human Rights Commission on the matter. Look who it's CC'd to.

http://facthai.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/ca...i-killers-ahrc/

Ah, those imbeciles at AHRC. If they want Abhisit to do something, they should avoid things like

"The AHRC notes with concern that your record of prosecutions of security forces’ abuses, including large-scale killings, has not been good. In fact, it has been shameful. Neither the inquests into the killings of 28 men at Krue Se or 19 at Sabayoi in the same year [FIVE years ago - plus] has resulted in any prosecutions of government officers."

in their requests.

It's just plain common sense, of which they apparently have none.

[mca]

So nothing to say about how the post mortem whitewash happened during Aphasit's tenure then?

So nothing to say about how the main gist of those "imbeciles" letter was to do with the Tak Bai event? At least those "imbeciles" are pointing out the UN stance on how those prisoners should have been treated. At least they're asking for a prosecution and looking at the evidence they've got every right to.

Cherry pick the letter all you like to avoid the main point of it.

It's kind of ironic that the very people who are at least making an effort to cut through the crap and seek justice for the Tak Bai victims (which happened on Thaksin's watch for sure) are referred to by an anti-Thaksin poster as "imbeciles"

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If Mr T was so good for the country can some one please explain why the powers to be eventually ousted him? He was pretty canny at putting as i see it all his people friends and relatives in top places..what happened?

they were mostly incompetent.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Hitler killed many millions of innocent people for their religious beliefs and for being gay.

Thaksin tried to get rid of a few thousand speed and heroin dealers. The comparisons end there.

Anyone who tries to compare the two leaders is sick in the head.

Well, did you see the "various times in his life", line?

No of course not, or the argument might have made sense to you.

Provided you have more than a cursory knowledge of 'early Hitler'

and not just late Hitler; ie the sweep of his his rise and fall.

These T/H comparisons are from the 30's, not the early 40's.

What Hitler did later is the end lesson of WHY to never let

similar personalities gain total control of a nation.

Hubris and total control with an out of control ego are dangerous,

as Hitler shows so clearly. What direction Thaksin might have gone?...

well fortunately, so far, we won't be subjected to an answer.

But to draw parallels between one who finally went round the twist BEFORE he did,

and one who was prevented from having total control of a nation, while

surrounded by sycophants, and showing mental derangements, is not a useless exercise.

Those who refuse or can't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Have a nice life.

Comparing almost any politician to Hitler is just plain stupid.

You can pretend all you want about how he might have turned out, but you don't have a crystal ball. Thaksin has never done anything remotely as evil as Hitler and all indications are that he never would have.

Why don't you call him Darth Vader’s twin brother as long as you are just making things up?

Then why does this keep coming up? Oh that's right you think any one who does this is STUPID...

well that's great debating etiquette.

Comparing any politician to Hitler of the late 20's or 30's is a viable juxtapostion.

Just because we NOW, in hindsight, know how bad he went,

does not in ANY WAY invalidate making a comparison with him before he did.

Animatic my friend... you might look up 'Godwin's rule' on the internet. For most thinking people (and by common consent among internet-savvy folk), you committed debating hara-kiri when you mentioned Hitler or the Nazis. If it wasn't you who mentioned it, you joined the lemming procession when you climbed on the band-wagon.

The debate was won and lost a while back. Why not let the dead horse lie in peace?

[TAWP]

the problem is that doesn't seem to be any limit to the number of scumbags in the country.

Are you outing yourself?

[Plus]

So nothing to say about how the post mortem whitewash happened during Aphasit's tenure then?

I already said that provincial court in Songkla has nothing to do with Abhisit.

It's kind of ironic that the very people who are at least making an effort to cut through the crap and seek justice for the Tak Bai victims (which happened on Thaksin's watch for sure) are referred to by an anti-Thaksin poster as "imbeciles"

I don't buy "they are imbeciles, but they are our imbeciles" argument.

Their way of going about those issues is counterproductive. You can say I was cherry-picking, but I don't see anything wrong with it - you can write me a nice long letter but one abusive sentence revealing your real attitude would be enough to dismiss it and never reply.

[tenpounds]

The truth is he was the best PM EVER FOR THE POOR AND NOT SO GOOD FOR THE MIDDLE UPPER CLASS, SADLY THAILAND HAS BEEN IN TURMOIL FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS AND THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT

[spongeman]

Crackdowns are up, so some progress has been made.

[webfact]

Uppercase postings are not welcome on TV. They are considered yelling! We should avoid it.

[caf]

Crackdowns are up, so some progress has been made.

Too many now though, dont you think. So there is likely to be an announcement that there will be a crackdown on crackdowns. The big advantage in that is that it will give credibility to thailand's neighbours that it really is the HUB of crackdowns on crackdowns.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Crackdowns are up, so some progress has been made.

Too many now though, dont you think. So there is likely to be an announcement that there will be a crackdown on crackdowns. The big advantage in that is that it will give credibility to thailand's neighbours that it really is the HUB of crackdowns on crackdowns.

I believe there will be more as the succession becomes a more and more urgent issue. Some reports suggest that Prem is influencing the police chief selection and Abhisit (according to rumours already unpopular among democrats) is being ordered to crack down hard on dissenting voices. The execution of drug dealers and the LM sentence handed down to Darunee are at least as symbolically important as they are actually reflective of current policy.

This could all be a preparation for a difficult time in Thailand, and make no mistake about it: Thailands powers-that-be are quite able and willing to follow the Burma route provided they do not see huge sanctions - which they probably wouldn't in the short term.

Abhisit is doing his usual mealy-mouthed double-speak circus act in USA right now. Can anyone really take Thailand seriously when it nominates itself to the UN Human Rights panel? Surely you have to be joking. After Tak Bai, the war on drugs, routine and regular disappearances, use of LM as a political device and the standing joke which is law enforcement in Thailand?

The man has no sense of shame.

[Jingthing]

In any case Abhisit gives a MUCH better impression of Thailand internationally than the current pitiful phase of Mr T. Thaksin's era is over. The problem now is for the people to accept reality.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Jingthing

[tig28]

less cover-ups of atrocities, such as the Tak Bai incident, where nearly 100 young Muslim men died while in military custody.

Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm.

It happened in a small provincial court in Songkla which has nothing to do with Abhisit whatsoever.

The military of course had influence on neither the outcome nor Abhisits deafening silence. As PM he was obliged to "speak no evil" irrespective of what he had seen and heard.

"Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm." But asleep at the wheel.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

less cover-ups of atrocities, such as the Tak Bai incident, where nearly 100 young Muslim men died while in military custody.

Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm.

It happened in a small provincial court in Songkla which has nothing to do with Abhisit whatsoever.

The military of course had influence on neither the outcome nor Abhisits deafening silence. As PM he was obliged to "speak no evil" irrespective of what he had seen and heard.

"Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm." But asleep at the wheel.

Not asleep, but he had his orders. Abhisit is not his own man, nor that of the Thai people, he represents the interests of a very few people who quite like the way things are and don't want to change.

[mca]

Not asleep, but he had his orders. Abhisit is not his own man, nor that of the Thai people, he represents the interests of a very few people who quite like the way things are and don't want to change.

I feel sure that quite a number of the anti Thaksin posters must agree with the above despite their loathing of Thaksin.

What better way for Apahasit to lay the ghost of Thaksin and show Thailand that here was a man who could lead LOS out of the "abyss" than to announce that the inquiry was to be reopened due to an obvious miscarriage of justice (or whatever). Further announcing that heads to the very top of the armed forces would roll if found to be culpable in the crime. A double whammy. Showing the Thai people that here was a man of integrity and showing them that the Thai on Thai abuses (or murder if we're calling a spade a spade) of the Thaksin era were a thing of the past and that no matter how high you were on the food chain you'd still receive the same treatment as the "lesser mortals" when it came to justice.

All that's happened is with regards to the justice system in LOS it's business as usual for the fortunate few.

Of course I'm dreaming that there'd be some army general slopping out in the stockade. Aphasit (or come to think of it any Thai PM) is in power as long as the old school chooses it to be and not a second more.

Debonair, handsome, urbane, Oxford educated. The public face.

The bitch of a few. The reality.

Edited September 22, 2009 by mca

[scorecard]

Mr T was fortunate to preside most of his term during a economic boom and seems to take credit for this of course Thailand did well during this time as most other countries did.

i find it a little hypocritical of him to say where has the country gone since he left or forced to leave if you like, i wonder what good he did for all those farmers if any (May be some one can answer this) as from my own perspective it seems all the easily available loans did more harm than good just got them deeper in to dept.

Quote from above:

"....i wonder what good he did for all those farmers if any (May be some one can answer this)"....

This is a very good question!

I agree, what did he really do for the poor farmers? (And the taxi drivers.)

And I'm not interested in vague comments like: "He takes care of the poor people', or "he loves the poor", etc.

What did he actual do which changed their lives, or to actually move them closer to being totally self suffient, or to move them closer to having good quality student centered education for all, regardless of their location (and don't forget he was the education minister for 6 months and achieved nothing, same as his claim that he would fix Bangkok traffic in six months and achieved absolutely nothing).

Come on: red shirt folks, 111 banned politicians group, somchai and samak; provide some facts, real detailed facts.

Waiting...

[scorecard]

less cover-ups of atrocities, such as the Tak Bai incident, where nearly 100 young Muslim men died while in military custody.

Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm.

So much for it being Thaksin's fault. The army answers to the owner and feels free to change jockeys when it wishes. This is the house that Jack built.

Cannot belive some of the rubbish you write.

The army is still playing the role of safety valve, and until there is no need for a safety valve, them I'm Ok with the army being the safety valve.

It's also true that we all need to hope that the army are the good guys.

Let's be realistic, there are no guarantees of anything in life, and until democracy (the power of the people) is the ultimate control, then we need to rely on other factors to intervene where needed and hope they are sincere and honest and see the big picture.

[eurasianthai]

Quite a few of my Thai colleagues hate Thaksin and quite e few love him, but can't say it now.

So when I ask the ones who hate him, why?

Because he was corrupted.

Well, last time I checked, he sure did not make a first in Thailand, so anything else?

Answer

Conclusion, don't talk politics and democracy with quite a few Bangkok people, they do not know what it means

[KevinBloodyWilson]

less cover-ups of atrocities, such as the Tak Bai incident, where nearly 100 young Muslim men died while in military custody.

Unfortunately the white wash post mortem inquiry happened while Aphasit was at the helm.

So much for it being Thaksin's fault. The army answers to the owner and feels free to change jockeys when it wishes. This is the house that Jack built.

Cannot belive some of the rubbish you write.

The army is still playing the role of safety valve, and until there is no need for a safety valve, them I'm Ok with the army being the safety valve.

You aren't arguing with me lad, nor insulting me. You are arguing with Prem, and you are insulting Prem. It was Prem who said about the army that the King is the owner of the horse and the PM of the day (Thaksin as it was then) is only the jockey.

Also, it is common knowledge that the Thai army inserts itself into business, media, propaganda and politics - for its own ends and on behalf of certain other people.

Now I don't mind someone being uninformed, but if they are uninformed and f*cking rude, then I do object. if they are uniformed and f*cking rude and arrogant, then I doubly object.

And I don't really care what you are OK with when you demonstrate a ridiculous lack of knowledge.

If you can't do better than this, then perhaps you had better wait until you get some long trousers before demonstrating your illiteracy in a public forum. Doing this only makes you look stupid and I am sure that is not what you intended.

Try to address issues instead of throwing ad-hominems around and you won't get your ass kicked quite so much.

That's you told. Go and sin no more.

Edited September 22, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[LawnGnome]

You aren't arguing with me lad, nor insulting me. You are arguing with Prem, and you are insulting Prem. It was Prem who said about the army that the King is the owner of the horse and the PM of the day (Thaksin as it was then) is only the jockey.

Also, it is common knowledge that the Thai army inserts itself into business, media, propaganda and politics - for its own ends and on behalf of certain other people.

Now I don't mind someone being uninformed, but if they are uninformed and f*cking rude, then I do object. if they are uniformed and f*cking rude and arrogant, then I doubly object.

And I don't really care what you are OK with when you demonstrate a ridiculous lack of knowledge.

If you can't do better than this, then perhaps you had better wait until you get some long trousers before demonstrating your illiteracy in a public forum. Doing this only makes you look stupid and I am sure that is not what you intended.

Try to address issues instead of throwing ad-hominems around and you won't get your ass kicked quite so much.

That's you told. Go and sin no more.

Please remove reference to the monarch from your post.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

You aren't arguing with me lad, nor insulting me. You are arguing with Prem, and you are insulting Prem. It was Prem who said about the army that the King is the owner of the horse and the PM of the day (Thaksin as it was then) is only the jockey.

Also, it is common knowledge that the Thai army inserts itself into business, media, propaganda and politics - for its own ends and on behalf of certain other people.

Now I don't mind someone being uninformed, but if they are uninformed and f*cking rude, then I do object. if they are uniformed and f*cking rude and arrogant, then I doubly object.

And I don't really care what you are OK with when you demonstrate a ridiculous lack of knowledge.

If you can't do better than this, then perhaps you had better wait until you get some long trousers before demonstrating your illiteracy in a public forum. Doing this only makes you look stupid and I am sure that is not what you intended.

Try to address issues instead of throwing ad-hominems around and you won't get your ass kicked quite so much.

That's you told. Go and sin no more.

Please remove reference to the monarch from your post.

It's a direct quote from Prem, and it was reported in those terms by all of the English-language newspapers in Thailand at the time (and for all I know, the Thai language ones as well). I imagine it is appropriate for TV as well.

Seems a bit sensitive, am I allowed to say that Thailand has a King? Where does the line get drawn? I am sure the mods will decide if it is inappropriate, they normally make sensible decisions.

Edited September 22, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[RandyWhite]

So how is it better now? Freedom of speech is better? Freedom of the press is better? Individual liberties better? LM prosecutions are fewer? How exactly is it better now?

I think you'd refuse to see that it's better regardless of any arguments.

Freedom of speech - in T-days people were sued left and right for billions, not happening anymore.

Freedom of press - there are half a dozen anti-government publications. In T-days he sued every media outlet even slightly critical.

Justice - for the first time in history power does not give immunity anymore.

Why don't you look at it through Thaksin's lawyers eyes, they've spent six months in jail, or former EC commissioners who were jailed, or Pojamarn, who was convicted of tax fraud, or Samak who tried to fool the court with fabricated evidence, or Thaksin himself who can't escape justice despite all his money and fan clubs everywhere.

Thaksins lawyers: you mean those fall-guys for Thaksin that tried to offer that judge the snack box stuffed with cash?

RAW.

[Publicus]

Stated by the Bloody one:

You aren't arguing with me lad, nor insulting me. You are arguing with Prem, and you are insulting Prem. It was Prem who said about the army that the King is the owner of the horse and the PM of the day (Thaksin as it was then) is only the jockey.

Also, it is common knowledge that the Thai army inserts itself into business, media, propaganda and politics - for its own ends and on behalf of certain other people.

Now I don't mind someone being uninformed, but if they are uninformed and f*cking rude, then I do object. if they are uniformed and f*cking rude and arrogant, then I doubly object.

And I don't really care what you are OK with when you demonstrate a ridiculous lack of knowledge.

If you can't do better than this, then perhaps you had better wait until you get some long trousers before demonstrating your illiteracy in a public forum. Doing this only makes you look stupid and I am sure that is not what you intended.

Try to address issues instead of throwing ad-hominems around and you won't get your ass kicked quite so much.

That's you told. Go and sin no more.

Raw indeed.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Publicus

[wayfarer108]

Never forget the point at which he was overthrown. It was when he was threatening to put his cronies into power to run the army and close all possible state power opposition to his criminal activities. In short he had state power almost within his grasp. All the talk of democracy etc is a whitewash. If he came back it would be very nasty indeed. The other side knows this, but some on this forum have their liberal eyes closed wide shut.

Spot on.

If Thailand has made little or no progress since he stepped down, that's primarily a measure of how far he and his cronies dragged Thailand down.

It's like asking 'Has the USA improved since Obama took the presidency?' The answer is probably no, because the damage Bush did in eight years is going to take a long time to recover from.

Ditto for the damage Thaksin has done to Thailand.

[Ulysses G.]

Trying to start Universal Health Coverage during the middle of a major financial meltdown could be concidered idiocy and Bush had nothing to do with that.