Foreign husbands still tied in knots

[george]

BANGKOK: The Constitution Court yesterday issued a ruling that won't make it any easier for foreign men married to Thai wives to become Thai citizens.

The ruling effectively means that men born overseas will still be subject to complicated citizenship procedures.

Foreign women married to Thai men are currently allowed to seek Thai nationality without having to go through regular channels.

Those channels are considered complicated, and they are applied to all foreign males wishing to become naturalised Thais.

Justice Minister Pongthep Thepkanchana asked the court to rule on the constitutionality of the legal provision and decide if it infringed gender equality.

"The majority of the judges ruled that it was constitutional. They also decided it did not go against any international laws," said Noppadol Hengcharoen, the Constitution Court's secretary-general.

He said the judges came to their decision after discussing the matter with experts from the Interior Ministry, the National Security Council, Foreign Minis-try and academics.

Noppadol said most of the judges pointed out that foreign men married to Thais could request Thai citizenship through a regular process that was neither too complicated nor detrimental to their family.

But any request for Thai citizenship could be rejected.

The majority judges were Kramol Tongdhamachart, Jum-phol na Songkhla, Preecha Cha-lermwanich, Phan Chantara-pan, Sak Techachan, Manit Withayatem, Suthee Sithisom-boon, Suwan Suwanwecho and Ura Wang-omklang.

The judges who found the legal clause unconstitutional were Mongkol Saratan, Sujit Boonbongkan, Suwit Theera-pong and Amorn Raksasat.

Two other judges - Jira Boon-pojanasunthorn and Saowanee Asawaroj - did not rule on the matter.

--The Nation 2003-10-10

[opalhort]

BANGKOK: The Constitution Court yesterday issued a ruling that won't make it any easier for foreign men married to Thai wives to become Thai citizens.

The ruling effectively means that men born overseas will still be subject to complicated citizenship procedures.

Foreign women married to Thai men are currently allowed to seek Thai nationality without having to go through regular channels.

Those channels are considered complicated, and they are applied to all foreign males wishing to become naturalised Thais.

Justice Minister Pongthep Thepkanchana asked the court to rule on the constitutionality of the legal provision and decide if it infringed gender equality.

"The majority of the judges ruled that it was constitutional. They also decided it did not go against any international laws," said Noppadol Hengcharoen, the Constitution Court's secretary-general.

He said the judges came to their decision after discussing the matter with experts from the Interior Ministry, the National Security Council, Foreign Minis-try and academics.

Noppadol said most of the judges pointed out that foreign men married to Thais could request Thai citizenship through a regular process that was neither too complicated nor detrimental to their family.

But any request for Thai citizenship could be rejected.

The majority judges were Kramol Tongdhamachart, Jum-phol na Songkhla, Preecha Cha-lermwanich, Phan Chantara-pan, Sak Techachan, Manit Withayatem, Suthee Sithisom-boon, Suwan Suwanwecho and Ura Wang-omklang.

The judges who found the legal clause unconstitutional were Mongkol Saratan, Sujit Boonbongkan, Suwit Theera-pong and Amorn Raksasat.

Two other judges - Jira Boon-pojanasunthorn and Saowanee Asawaroj - did not rule on the matter.

--The Nation 2003-10-10

Although I do not feel happy with this ruling, it makes perfect sense.

Just look at SOME of the postings in this forum. How many foreign men are just waiting to jump at the opportunity to become a Thai citizen in an easy way.

Gender equality: yes the ruling in the eyes of the international community appears to be wrong, but think:

The latest Thai constitution (the best one Thailand has ever had) has been written for the Thai people. It does provide for gender equality among the Thai population. It does not say anything anywhere that foreign men and women have to be treated equal.

opalhort

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Would many foreigner's really want to become Thai citizens whether it could be done easily or not ?

[easymoney]

I disagree with the ruling . It was one of the most fustrating processes I ever went through. Was it worth it ? Yes in the end as I am still reaping the benefits as I am able to compete( not on a level field but compete) Too, what would Minor group be today without Thai citizenship?.

Did Thailand benefit from me gaining citizenship? Yes ,too as after about one year I now employee 23 fellow Thais and the cheapest salary on my payroll is 20k a month. I don't have just cuties running around as I hire on ability. I now I am the odd ball out but did I gain ? You bet I did as my gross has gone up five times this year.

[sbk]

well, yes, i would be interested in gaining thai citizenship if i could keep my original nationality as well. i have been trying to find out how the rules are different for farang wives but have found out nothing concrete so far. may just ask the police in surat thani, doubt they'll know but you never know!

it would be great if someone with info on this could post!

[easymoney]

sbk depends original citizenship. I am an American and did not lose mine.You use too I think about 10  to 15 years ago if you were an American. You need to check with your respective embassy.

Again though be advised it is a nightmare process and they grant about 100 a year. Think about that if all were used for American in 100 years 10000 and in US we have over 150,000 thai (male) naturalized citizens in past 30 years.

[sbk]

I'm american too, but I am a woman and according to this phuket gazette article: citizenship for foreigners, it is a simple process for a foreign woman. does the process he describes sound like what you went through?? I may just check it out at our provincial police headquarters, did you go through the police or immigration?? thanks so much for your info, good to hear it first hand!

[samran]

<font color='#000000'>well, yes, i would be interested in gaining thai citizenship if i could keep my original nationality as well. i have been trying to find out how the rules are different for farang wives but have found out nothing concrete so far. may just ask the police in surat thani, doubt they'll know but you never know!

it would be great if someone with info on this could post!</font>

SBK,

Hopefully I don't sound to condescending or presumptuous here. I just want to share my experiences with you.

One thing that I have learnt working with the Thai civil service is there is always a way of doing things (legally too) The rules are there, you just have to find that person who knows the rules, and how they are used. Finding that person can be challenging however!!

Unfortunately in your situation, that "someone" is probably a lone immigration official who sits at Suan Phlu somewhere. If you are really keen on getting Thai citizenship (and Surat Thani comes up dry) then I think that spending a couple of days in BKK finding out how things work may be the way to go.

My suggestion is perhaps you come to BKK, treating the whole trip as a business trip. Try and tee up some interviews with officials, especially the head of the department responsible for citizenship applications if you can, dress conservatively (they'll like that), and sit down armed with your research and ask the questions you need answered.

I know Suan Phlu can be a bit of a mad house, so it is even more essential that you get to see people who work "upstairs".

Very, very often, as with most things in Thailand, simply knowing someone will get you 75% of the way to achieving your goals. This is a country built on relationships and it probably is up for you to build them in this case. Even if you are qualified for citizenship per se, simply filling out a form and hoping for results won't quite get you there.

Work on letting the right people get to know you...after all, your application will ultimately be considered by them even if you do live down south.

I know this email is pessimistic in one sense, but it is not meant to be. My experience is things can be achieved, you just have to be a bit persistent!

Good luck na krup.

[sbk]

Hi Samran, thanks for the advice, but I have since found out I must apply at the police department. We will try again, have been there twice already, to no avail, no one knows how to do their job. However, I do not give up that easily, after having lived here for 15 years I have certainly learned the value of patience. We will try once again, probably in a month or so, my husband let his passport expire (lazy bum ) so we must go to Songkhla to reapply. If, on this third trip, the chief of police cannot help; I emailed some lawyers who suggested that I need to apply in person, that a lawyer would not help , and also that we should go straight to the head of the police in the provincial hq, then next will be the Police in Bangkok, who, perhaps will have some useful suggestions.

I know how pessimistic life here can be sometimes, especially when dealing with the bureaucracy. My husband's family may be able to help, I know that having a 'friend' can often move things along. That, too, is the next step, since doing it on our own is not working. In Mexico they say, manana, here I believe it is pi na (next year)!

[penelope]

The only thing that is unconstitutional about the whole afair is the toungue yoga I have to perform to pronounce all those judges' names in one breath !

[sabaijai]

The latest Thai constitution (the best one Thailand has ever had) has been written for the Thai people. It does provide for gender equality among the Thai population. It does not say anything anywhere that foreign men and women have to be treated equal.

Opal, You're missing the point of the court challenge. It wasn't/isn't a question of the rights of foreigners living in Thailand. It's a matter of a Thai woman's right to transfer (ohn in Thai) Thai nationality to her spouse. A Thai male has this right under Thai law. A Thai woman is denied this right, in director contravention of the 1997 constitution. It really doesn't matter what you or I think about this, the lack of any provision for Thai women obviously violates the spirit of the equal rights clause of the new constitution.

What's telling in the report is that the judges felt compelled to consult with the Interior Ministry before making a decision. Proving yet again that there are no true "checks and balances" between the executive and judicial branches of government in Thailand, only the appearance of same.

Not that Thailand is alone in such imbalances, and surely this initial decision comes as no big surprise. I do hope, however, that whoever brought this case before the administrative court will consider appealing the decision.

[opalhort]

sabaijai, of course you have a point there, but I think the word 'ohn' may be misinterpreted here.

A Thai husband can sponsor the Thai nationality of a foreign wife but he can not "transfer" it. to transfer would mean that he gives up his nationality.

at least this is how I see it, but I may be wrong.

as far as "check and balance" is concerned here, of course there is close to none.

opalhort

[sabaijai]

ohn literally means 'transfer', but perhaps a looser translation such as 'confer' would be more appropriate.

Thai-Thai Raatchabandit Sathaan's first legal definition is in fact exactly the same as the English meaning of transfer, as it says "to give up one's right in favor of another" (tham hai sit tok pai pen kawng bukkhon eun).

Meanwhile the 2nd non-legal (spoken Thai) definition: ohn = yawm (willingly) mawp hai (offer, make a gift of). The first spoken definition simply means to move/transfer.

In any case the connotation is clear, it's an action of the Thai national in favour of his or her spouse. Thai men have this right. Thai women don't.