Why Can't Farangs Pronounce Pattaya?

[sbk]

One more exactly and this thread will cease to make any sense whatsoever

Tourists often get Koh Phangan wrong, Phuket, Phi Phi, pronouncing it with a f sound rather than an aspirated p sound. The transliteration of Thai into the Roman alphabet is not standardized like it is with Mandarin Chinese, so depending on who is doing the transliteration, the spelling can and does change.

I wouldn't stress too much about it. It really is a very minor thing to worry about in the grand scheme of things. Unlike, of course, how much sin sot should be paid, getting over charged for being a foreigner, and whether or not people can figure out the trolleys in the airport

[Jingthing]

The Thais don't care so why should we care?

I have never seen a Thai cringe at or correct a bad Pattaya pronunciation. Of course, they tell will you how if you ASK.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Jingthing

[bobbin]

It's the translation that's to blame.

All the signs say Pattaya in English wereas the written Thai has the name ending in sara -ar.

So the English comes out with a flat 'a' sound on the end instead of the correct elongated 'aar' sound.

If the signs were written as Pattayar then more likely it would be pronouced correctly by most people.

Nope. There is no "r" at the end of Pattaya unless spoken by some Brits. And they are wrong.

[Geekfreaklover]

The Thais don't care so why should we care?

I have never seen a Thai cringe at or correct a bad Pattaya pronunciation. Of course, they tell will you how if you ASK.

Exactly!

( sorry, couldn't resist).

[tropo]

why do almost all farangs insist on saying pa-THAI-ya when all they have to do is listen to any Thai or read the spelling in Thai. it's พัทยา phat tha yaa.

Most Farangs do not pronounce it pa-Thai-ya. That's mainly the Brits. Americans prefer Patty-ya.

It just depends on your country of origin. The Thai pronunciation is awkward for non-Thai speakers and doesn't flow off the tongue.

Bottom line, it's a bitch of a name.

[Spalpeen]

Best cut us farangs some slack. We naturally pronouce words phonetically just like we learned in school, not realizing or understanding the Romanized Thai we see is actually a transliteration of Thai. We just don't take the time to learn the system (especially if you're on a holiday). Even the word farang is often mis-pronounced, fa-rang (like he rang the bell) which is of course wrong. It's closer to fa-rung or fa-lung. Another, Pattaya Klang road is closer to Pattaya Glung and we could go on and on.....

Strangely enough, "Farang" isn't a Thai word at all, so whatever way you choose to pronounce it is OK. Up to you. My missus used to think that there was a Thai word pronounced "Eye-see-you" which meant the intensive care unit in a hospital, until I pointed out to her that she was actually saying the letters ICU. She wasn't all that pleased to find out that she had been talking Farang-speak.

[soundman]

For BM's info: (those that cannot pronouce Pattaya correctly, copy the lyrics in this song!)

[MZurf]

<br />why do almost all farangs insist on saying pa-THAI-ya when all they have to do is listen to any Thai or read the spelling in Thai. it's พัทยา phat tha yaa. <br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Why do some farangs not know that one should use a capital letter in the first word of a sentence???

[NanLaew]

Why do some farangs not know that one should use a capital letter in the first word of a sentence???

Let me guess here. You are a former taxi driver TEFL'er, no? I hear they have the highest reported incidence of multiple redundant eroteme usage.

The age old how to say Pataayaa debate. Sorted!

[oevna]

The transliteration of Thai into the Roman alphabet is not standardized like it is with Mandarin Chinese, so depending on who is doing the transliteration, the spelling can and does change.

Actually, it is standardized. There are two problems with it:

• It is used inconsistently, either to make it more likely that farang will correctly pronounce the Thai words being represented, or due to the writer being unfamiliar with the standard.
  
• The transliteration system was not designed to represent the Thai language precisely, but to approximate it. This is because the Roman script is inadequate for distinguishing between short and long duration vowels, and distinguishing between certain aspirated/non-aspirated and voiced/unvoiced consonant sounds.
  

EDIT -- How could I have forgotten... it also makes no attempt to represent tones.

Edited September 30, 2009 by oevna

[oevna]

why do almost all farangs insist on saying pa-THAI-ya when all they have to do is listen to any Thai or read the spelling in Thai. it's พัทยา phat tha yaa.

Two comments:

• This problem is not unique to English speakers trying to pronounce Thai words. It is pretty much a universal feature of speakers of one language trying to pronounce the words of any other language not closely related to one that they speak natively.
  
• Do you really expect all tourists visiting Thailand to learn to read the Thai script for their two-week holiday? Tourists visiting Thailand who do not speak, read, or write Thai, vastly outnumber expats, most of whom also can't speak, read, or write Thai. I don't find this mispronunciation very surprising.
  

I don't know why, but for some reason I seem to like expressing myself in lists today.

[oevna]

For BM's info: (those that cannot pronouce Pattaya correctly, copy the lyrics in this song!)

• Nice find!
  
• One thing I noticed is that while this song shows you how to pronounce "Pattaya" correctly, it mispronounces the English-derived names in the song (like "buffalo" for example), re-enforcing the first point in my previous post.
  

[PattayaParent]

It's the translation that's to blame.

All the signs say Pattaya in English wereas the written Thai has the name ending in sara -ar.

So the English comes out with a flat 'a' sound on the end instead of the correct elongated 'aar' sound.

If the signs were written as Pattayar then more likely it would be pronouced correctly by most people.

Nope. There is no "r" at the end of Pattaya unless spoken by some Brits. And they are wrong.

But there is a r (sara -ar) at the end of the Thai word and if you say the word Pattaya to a Thai that is not in a bar they will not understand what you mean, but if you say Pattayar they know exactly, same as a previous poster mentioned the mispronunciation of Ra-yong as Ray-ong.

Edited September 30, 2009 by PattayaParent

[bobbin]

PattayaParent

Nope again. Sara is used for vowels. "R" is a consonant.

Many British based transliterations insert an "r" to indicate a long vowel but this is an oddity unique to British speakers of English.

I remember hearing for the first time a Brit pronouncing the name of my country, Canada, and clearly hearing an "r" sound at the end.

[stevehaigh]

<br />why do almost all farangs insist on saying pa-THAI-ya when all they have to do is listen to any Thai or read the spelling in Thai. it's พัทยา phat tha yaa. <br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Why do some farangs not know that one should use a capital letter in the first word of a sentence???

exactly!

[oevna]

But there is a r (sara -ar) at the end of the Thai word and if you say the word Pattaya to a Thai that is not in a bar they will not understand what you mean, but if you say Pattayar they know exactly, same as a previous poster mentioned the mispronunciation of Ra-yong as Ray-ong.

Well, no technically there isn't an "r" (ro-reua, ร เรือ) at the end. Sometimes the long "a" vowel sound is transliterated as "ar", such as in words like "chart" ชาติ (nation) and "larb" ลาบ (Thai/Lao spicy minced meat salad). I'm guessing this is what you mean by "sara -ar".

However, this is not used consistently, e.g. "ajarn" อาจารย์ (teacher, professor) uses it in the second instance of this vowel, but not the first, and it is just as often spelled "ajahn" (with an "ah" instead of "ar"). I have never seen it spelled "arjarn", as it should be if we were to consistently stick to the convention that you suggest.

Also, the degree to which "Pattayar" would be close to the Thai pronunciation of พัทยา depends on which English-speaking country the speaker comes from. In many British English accents, "ar" would sound close to correct, however, in American and Canadian accents, the "r" would be pronounced more strongly and would sound awkward. A better solution would be to double the vowel, but this only works for "a" vs. "aa", "i" vs. "ii", and "u" vs. "uu". Doubling the vowels "e" and "o" changes their pronunciation completely in English, and so would cause even more trouble.

The problem is that the Roman script is simply not adequate for representing the Thai language, so we make do the best we can with what we've got. Thais who work in the tourism sector tend to be able to recognize English speakers' mispronunciations and understand what they mean after working in the industry for a while.

[gburns57au]

PattayaParent

Nope again. Sara is used for vowels. "R" is a consonant.

Many British based transliterations insert an "r" to indicate a long vowel but this is an oddity unique to British speakers of English.

I remember hearing for the first time a Brit pronouncing the name of my country, Canada, and clearly hearing an "r" sound at the end.

R as in Raw Reua is a consonant usually pronounced as an L

However the walking stick letter at the end is Sara AR.....a Thai vowel of which there are 21 others...

[bobbin]

PattayaParent

Nope again. Sara is used for vowels. "R" is a consonant.

Many British based transliterations insert an "r" to indicate a long vowel but this is an oddity unique to British speakers of English.

I remember hearing for the first time a Brit pronouncing the name of my country, Canada, and clearly hearing an "r" sound at the end.

R as in Raw Reua is a consonant usually pronounced as an L

However the walking stick letter at the end is Sara AR.....a Thai vowel of which there are 21 others...

No such animal as Sara "ar".

Yes, Raw Reua is often mispronounced as an "L".

Edited September 30, 2009 by bobbin

[Naam]

Why do some farangs not know that one should use a capital letter in the first word of a sentence???

says WHO?

[Naam]

Why Can't Farangs Pronounce Pattaya?

estimated clicks on this most interesting topic 7,681,596 (in about 350 years).

[Rimmer]

Seems like a lot of people care about the correct pronunciation of Pattaya I wonder why?

I also don't pronounce Kuala Lumpur correctly, but that doesn't bother me over much either.

[whatchamacallit]

why do almost all farangs insist on saying pa-THAI-ya when all they have to do is listen to any Thai or read the spelling in Thai. it's พัทยา phat tha yaa.

the same reason the Thais insist on saying loom-for-len, no-plom-plem, eskusme, soleee..... It's called an accent - you notice it in most countries in the world when they try to speak a foreign language - if this is the worse of your worries, you're a lucky man.

[tropo]

Seems like a lot of people care about the correct pronunciation of Pattaya I wonder why?

I also don't pronounce Kuala Lumpur correctly, but that doesn't bother me over much either.

Most place names around the world have foreign and local pronunciations which are always different.

Jomtien is another a good example of an English approximation of a Thai place name.

In the UK you can hear everyday English words pronounced many different ways depending on the English dialect spoken. Some accents are so thick that non-UK English speakers can not understand them.

Edited September 30, 2009 by tropo

[PattayaParent]

But there is a r (sara -ar) at the end of the Thai word and if you say the word Pattaya to a Thai that is not in a bar they will not understand what you mean, but if you say Pattayar they know exactly, same as a previous poster mentioned the mispronunciation of Ra-yong as Ray-ong.

Well, no technically there isn't an "r" (ro-reua, ร เรือ) at the end. Sometimes the long "a" vowel sound is transliterated as "ar", such as in words like "chart" ชาติ (nation) and "larb" ลาบ (Thai/Lao spicy minced meat salad). I'm guessing this is what you mean by "sara -ar".

Yes, exactly what I mean

However, this is not used consistently, e.g. "ajarn" อาจารย์ (teacher, professor) uses it in the second instance of this vowel, but not the first, and it is just as often spelled "ajahn" (with an "ah" instead of "ar"). I have never seen it spelled "arjarn", as it should be if we were to consistently stick to the convention that you suggest.

That's becasuse it's preceded by the อ but yes I have also seen the aa and ah used as well as ar.

Also, the degree to which "Pattayar" would be close to the Thai pronunciation of พัทยา depends on which English-speaking country the speaker comes from. In many British English accents, "ar" would sound close to correct, however, in American and Canadian accents, the "r" would be pronounced more strongly and would sound awkward. A better solution would be to double the vowel, but this only works for "a" vs. "aa", "i" vs. "ii", and "u" vs. "uu". Doubling the vowels "e" and "o" changes their pronunciation completely in English, and so would cause even more trouble.

I'm British English so naturally speak English the way what it was meant to be spoke

The problem is that the Roman script is simply not adequate for representing the Thai language, so we make do the best we can with what we've got. Thais who work in the tourism sector tend to be able to recognize English speakers' mispronunciations and understand what they mean after working in the industry for a while.

At least in England we can get our own back with Bicester

[oevna]

R as in Raw Reua is a consonant usually pronounced as an L

The pronunciation of ร (รอ เรือ "ro reua") is regional. In the Lao language, there is no distinction between the "R" and "L" sounds (both are pronounced as an "L"), but there are two letters for writing them, equivalent to Thai's ร ("R") and ล ("L", ลอ ลิง "lo ling"). The Isaan dialect as spoken throughout the Northeastern region is basically a dialect of the Lao language, so this feature also exists in the Isaan dialect.

Many central Thai speakers will mix the two pronunciations, but it seems to depend on where the letter appears in the word. For example, the word เร็ว "reo" meaning fast or quick is not usually pronounced as an "L" (except in the Northeast), but as an "R" in the central dialect. However, in the word ฝรั่ง "farang", it is often pronounced as an "L" like "falang" even in the central dialect. I think it is mostly a matter of laziness in that case, due to the proximity of the vowel sound following it, and the position of the tongue in the mouth when articulating the ร consonant and the following vowel sound. Sort of like the way we Americans say "samwich" (or "sammich" in some regions of the US) when we mean "sandwich". :-P

[oevna]

I'm British English so naturally speak English the way what it was meant to be spoke

And I am American, therefore I suppose I speak English the way it was not meant to be spoken.

[jombom]

''I'm British English so naturally speak English the way what it was meant to be spoke ''

So this is the bestest English then, or maybe the worsest joke.

Actually, I cannot find this post. Is it perhaps, a modification.

[oevna]

Actually, I cannot find this post. Is it perhaps, a modification.

To find it, click on the little red arrow-in-a-box thingy at the top of the quoted text. For example:

EDIT -- Never mind, I think I see what you're saying now. I think the member named PattayaParent added his replies to my comments in-line in bold text to respond to each paragraph individually, instead of breaking up my quote into multiple quoted sections.

Edited September 30, 2009 by oevna

[NanLaew]

PattayaParent

Nope again. Sara is used for vowels. "R" is a consonant.

Many British based transliterations insert an "r" to indicate a long vowel but this is an oddity unique to British speakers of English.

I remember hearing for the first time a Brit pronouncing the name of my country, Canada, and clearly hearing an "r" sound at the end.

Correction! It is an affectation of the English speaking from England to tack on the errant 'r' at the arse end of an open vowel.

The Scots never do this and as you all know, if anyone knows how to roll his R's, it's a Scotsman!

[NanLaew]

But there is a r (sara -ar) at the end of the Thai word and if you say the word Pattaya to a Thai that is not in a bar they will not understand what you mean, but if you say Pattayar they know exactly, same as a previous poster mentioned the mispronunciation of Ra-yong as Ray-ong.

Well, no technically there isn't an "r" (ro-reua, ร เรือ) at the end. Sometimes the long "a" vowel sound is transliterated as "ar", such as in words like "chart" ชาติ (nation) and "larb" ลาบ (Thai/Lao spicy minced meat salad). I'm guessing this is what you mean by "sara -ar".

Yes, exactly what I mean

However, this is not used consistently, e.g. "ajarn" อาจารย์ (teacher, professor) uses it in the second instance of this vowel, but not the first, and it is just as often spelled "ajahn" (with an "ah" instead of "ar"). I have never seen it spelled "arjarn", as it should be if we were to consistently stick to the convention that you suggest.

That's becasuse it's preceded by the อ but yes I have also seen the aa and ah used as well as ar.

Also, the degree to which "Pattayar" would be close to the Thai pronunciation of พัทยา depends on which English-speaking country the speaker comes from. In many British English accents, "ar" would sound close to correct, however, in American and Canadian accents, the "r" would be pronounced more strongly and would sound awkward. A better solution would be to double the vowel, but this only works for "a" vs. "aa", "i" vs. "ii", and "u" vs. "uu". Doubling the vowels "e" and "o" changes their pronunciation completely in English, and so would cause even more trouble.

I'm British English so naturally speak English the way what it was meant to be spoke

The problem is that the Roman script is simply not adequate for representing the Thai language, so we make do the best we can with what we've got. Thais who work in the tourism sector tend to be able to recognize English speakers' mispronunciations and understand what they mean after working in the industry for a while.

At least in England we can get our own back with Bicester

And in Scotland, we have (among others), Avoch which is pronounced "Och" .... as in 'Och aye the noo!'