House Construction

[tutsiwarrior]

I'm thinking of building a 4 bed 2 bath 2 kitchen house single storey arranged in a 'u' around a central courtyard with an interior veranda. Has anyone seen this type of construction or can anyone estimate the cost on a per square meter basis?

Also what can anyone say about problems during construction and/or drainage problems (for courtyard under slab drainpipe, etc.)?

[stevehaigh]

I'm thinking of building a 4 bed 2 bath 2 kitchen house single storey arranged in a 'u' around a central courtyard with an interior veranda. Has anyone seen this type of construction or can anyone estimate the cost on a per square meter basis?

Also what can anyone say about problems during construction and/or drainage problems (for courtyard under slab drainpipe, etc.)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there a similar thread running around at the moment. i've heard a number of estimates. i'm building for 10,000B/m2, 2 story 210sqm, nice interior finish.

don't know about drainage, depends on slop and soil type.

[ProThaiExpat]

I have always liked U shaped or complete surround courtyard houses for the privacy they provide. Very Mediteranian in feel and ideal in Thailand, it would seem to me, as they are single story and made of Thai bricks with mortar finish.

I see no reason you can't build one with average finish for 6500 Baht a square meter, with higher price for superior finish.

It seems to me an "all sides" drainage plan would work just fine, using concrete "canals" with cement covers with "slits" between.

My house ended up a meter wider on one side than the plan called for and there was a cement drainage ditch against the low outside wall that almost eliminated my walking path.

I bought cement squares for 35 Baht, (thiner ones than you see along roadways) and laid them ontop of the drainage ditch, with a cm gap between. Works wonderfully.

If you installed a concrete drainage ditch between the coutyard side house wall or veranda on all sides of the courtyard, sloped to drain to the corners and then drained from there by 3 inch or larger PVC pipes to off your property, usually a public drain or street drain, you would be in great shape and not unsigtly, as the drainsage ditch would be covered by attactive pavers or concrete steps with slight gaps between.

You would certainly want to slope the courtyard appropriately. Depending on its size, you could slope to only two draingage ditches if you wanted. Likewise, if you used rain gutters for your roof, their downdrains would likewise be a consideration to integrate into your overall plan.

[Diggerbasher]

Seven thousand per square metre should see you ok but don't go nuts on the finishing.

[monty]

6000 /sqm basic.

Then you can start to add for double outside walls, decent long lasting paint, insulated roofs, stepped ceilings with indirect lighting, central hot water system (I don't like electrics in my shower area!), western standard electrics, sliding doors in the higher quality aluminium, double glazing, and on and on...

around the 10000/sqm you probably have pretty much everything we would expect in the Western world.

But realize that the major expenses only start when the house is finished!!!

Aircon's, furniture, home entertainment, garden design,....

[jayenram]

Yes, anything from Bht 6,000 to Bht 10,000 / sqm. But don't forget, this does not include the price of the land!

[bkk_mike]

central hot water system (I don't like electrics in my shower area!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can use the standalone heaters, and still avoid electrics in the shower area.

What we've got in each bathroom is all the fixtures have hot and cold inputs, and hot comes from an individual heater in each bathroom (well away from the bath and shower).

This way, you've got hot water for the sink, bath, shower, but don't have the full expense of centralised hot water - and the hot comes on virtually instantly when you turn on the shower. (and if a heater goes, I just use one of the other bathrooms until I get it fixed...)

[jimmi]

Tutsiwarrior,

There is a great website that deals with building a house in Thailand. It has a lot of good information, the website is coolthaihouse. I would like to encourage all who have built houses in Thailand to share thier experiences and problems they had here. This will help other expats to avoid the problems other people had. I am looking for land now, and plan to start building in about a year. Good luck Tutsiwarrior, let us know how it turns out.

[tutsiwarrior]

cheers folks...just got back online after the Friday Muslim weekend.

I can grade the interior courtyard to give good drainage but wonder about under foundation pipes to evacuate to the ditch outside the house. Also covered culverts are favored by nasty critters like banded craiks that I would like to avoid. Any suggestion on this particular issue? Want to build in countryside Suphanburi so the price of land won't be too much.

cheers...tutsi

[ProThaiExpat]

Tutsi: A three inch or greater high grade PVC drainage pipe under your foundation should work well. Keep in mind that the majority of your foundation is very shallow with only your footings going down to bedrock. Your toilets are drained similarily to your septic tank.

While I have solved most of my construction problems, I am still plagued by my hot water system.

I was persuaded that a three phase electric system was best. Then bought the best automatic heating system for three phase from Siemens and installed in cabinets away from showers.

First year the hot water didn't work most of the time do to insufficient pressure. Pump installed and then the water ran boiling or cold with no in between.

Eveidently the COTO shower control valve simply rotated from hot to cold without effective mixing of hot and cold. Called installer company who rewired the heater so water never reallly got very hot, a least no scalding, however in winter water was not hot enough.

Rewirred to very hot again and living with it, but believe me, my valves are probably the problem.

As I understand it, there are pressure sesitive valves and temperature senistive valves, readily available in the west, which are mandatory in apartment houses due to the common water supply fluctuating in pressure and temperature constantly.

Now my dreams are about pulling out the automatic heater and installing a temperature adjustable heater commonly found in Thailand. Then I can adjust the full "hot" temperature to my liking. Of course, the intake and out take openings in the wall will have to be adjusted, probably with on/off valves with flexi-hoses but when I really get disgusted, will do it.

In the meantime, my showers are quite short, as the temperature desired is not maintained very long.

My suggestion to all builders is to locate your hot water heater in a cabinet in the bath with copper pipes but with a temperature control.

I spent 9k Baht for what will be replaced with a 6 Baht adjustable temperature unit. Ripping out the wall and tile to change the valves to more sophisticated temperature and pressure sensitive valves is not an option.

[badman]

Actually fitting an airtank in line with your pump will help with inconsistent pressure which will cause inconsistent temperature fluctuations, these can be bought for 6 k upwards, on a surge of water the air compresses easier than the water so there helping a more consistent pressure coming out of the faucet.

You could always make your own air tank with a meter of 4 inch pipe capped off on one end, reducer on the other end to fit onto the outlet pipe of your pump, this also stops water hammer aswell.

[Digger]

Tutsi:  A three inch or greater high grade PVC drainage pipe under your foundation should work well.  Keep in mind that the majority of your foundation is very shallow with only your footings going down to bedrock. Your toilets are drained similarily to your septic tank.

While I have solved most of my construction problems, I am still plagued by my hot water system.

I was persuaded that a three phase electric system was best.  Then bought the best automatic heating system for three phase from Siemens and installed in cabinets away from showers.

First year the hot water didn't work most of the time do to insufficient pressure.  Pump installed and then the water ran boiling or cold with no in between.

Eveidently the COTO shower control valve simply rotated from hot to cold without effective mixing of hot and cold.  Called installer company who rewired the heater so water never reallly got very hot, a least no scalding, however in winter water was not hot enough.

Rewirred to very hot again and living with it, but believe me, my valves are probably the problem.

As I understand it, there are pressure sesitive valves and temperature senistive valves, readily available in the west, which are mandatory in apartment houses due to the common water supply fluctuating in pressure and temperature constantly.

Now my dreams are about pulling out the automatic heater and installing a temperature adjustable heater commonly found in Thailand.  Then I can adjust the full "hot" temperature to my liking.  Of course, the intake and out take openings in the wall will have to be adjusted, probably with on/off valves with flexi-hoses but when I really get disgusted, will do it.

In the meantime, my showers are quite short, as the temperature desired is not maintained very long.

My suggestion to all builders is to locate your hot water heater in a cabinet in the bath with copper pipes but with a temperature control.

I spent 9k Baht for what will be replaced with a 6 Baht adjustable temperature unit.  Ripping out the wall and tile to change the valves to more sophisticated temperature and pressure sensitive valves is not an option.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had the same problem with the big siemens water heater - I called in Siemens and there engineer suggested the easiest solution was just to change the wiring for it to become a 1-phase water heater instead of the 3-phase. He changed it in minutes and now just run the hot tap and the water is perfect temperature for showering. I am not really happy with the solution but it works.

[ProThaiExpat]

Digger: Went that route but lower temperature not hot enough in winter and hotter wiring too hot for summer. I have the Seimens installation book and it shows the various wirings available, not difficult to do but why in the world they didn't provide a temperture adjustment, I can only guess, probably relying on the valve mixer to cure the problem.

Tonight, I will run the sink fixture at full hot and see if I can increase the volume of water running through the heater when I run the shower at the same time in hopes of it not heating to the max do to the water volume.

Otherwise, it will be buying another adjustable water temperature water heater, easy enough to do, and flex hose installing it to the wall outlets presently set for the Seimens configuration.

My Thai plumber reversed the valves in the wall so I get hot on the right side of the valve and cold on the left, opposite from the other bathroom. Wonder if that has anything to do with the mix function?

[jayenram]

on a surge of water the air compresses easier than the water so there helping a more consistent pressure coming out of the faucet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't realise that water compresses at all.

[tutsiwarrior]

jaye,...give the guy a break...alotta folks don't know that water is incompressible...

[Jai Dee]

Another tip for a more constant water pressure in your system is to install a 1" dia distribution system throughout the house, rather than the standard 3/4" system preferred here in Thailand. Incremental cost difference is minimal, and you can still reduce to 3/4" at the tap fittings/heaters etc, overall effect is the increased system volume does tend to counteract sudden system pressure drops.

[tutsiwarrior]

jai dee...what can you recommend regarding materials for plumbing systems? Any fittings OEMs to stay away from? The faucets we had installed in our shop house are now in bad shape...

[autonomous_unit]

Our rented condo in BKK has a little Stiebel Eltron heater on the wall in the shower, with its output hooked into a two-tap mixing faucet. Even dialed to the lowest temperature available, we have the same problem that it switches on and off with the shower becoming too hot or too cold every minute or so n the cool season, as the water pressure varies. (In the rest of the year, we do not use it at all.) I have also noticed that it seems as if the mixing ratio changes abruptly when the pressure drops and actually stays that way after the pressure returns. I do not have in-line water flow meters to verify my hypothesis.

Is it just a matter of being penny-wise and pound-foolish that the plumbing is so bad here? From the US, I am used to having vent stacks to the roof and proper water traps on all drains, plus a shock-absorber in the form of a capped vertical segment of pipe (filled with air) at the end of each water "circuit". Together with reliable sources (pressure at or above expected levels) and a pressure-regulator at the entry to the dwelling, these provide very nice service without needing larger expansion tanks etc. These are not just a matter of comfort but also reduce the stresses on all of the fittings and joints...

BTW, I believe water does compress a little in practice because it is very difficult to get all the dissolved gases out of it. :-) That is one reason hydraulic systems usually use some other fluid rather than water. The other reasons being to get a higher boiling point and to prevent corrosion. Remember, brake fluid actually gets "soft" when it absorbs water from the atmosphere!

[jayenram]

jaye,...give the guy a break...alotta folks don't know that water is incompressible...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prolly the same folks that think you can raise water more than 9.5 metres with a suction pump.

[Jai Dee]

jai dee...what can you recommend regarding materials for plumbing systems? Any fittings OEMs to stay away from? The faucets we had installed in our shop house are now in bad shape...

Tutsi,

The system I am having installed in the house I am building right now is a simple 1" PVC ringmain... a ringmain rather than a "tree" type distribution system that can tend to collect impurities at the terminal points if used infrequently. Size reduction, again in PVC, to 3/4" or 1/2" at the cold water terminal fittings (faucets, hot water heaters etc). 1/2" copper piping from the hot water heaters to the faucets in the showers, bath etc.

As far as faucet selection is concerned, I can't really recommend any, as I have yet to experience any problems. I guess a bit of common sense wrt selection will go a long way... something that is easily disassembled and cleaned, washer replacement easy etc.

If your faucets are deteriorating quickly then maybe the water quality needs looking at? There could be an excess of lime in the water supply, which could lead to calcium scale on and around the faucet valve seat. Many other things can contribute to problems like this... I wouldn't just put it down to faucet manufacturer.

[badman]

on a surge of water the air compresses easier than the water so there helping a more consistent pressure coming out of the faucet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't realise that water compresses at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it just goes to show that both you and tutsi can learn something new everyday then doesnt it, now if you would care to reread my statement above and commit it to memory....

think of brake lines on a car, and what happens when you get water or air in the line..

think of the seas and the oceans and the effect the moon has on them....

[badman]

jaye,...give the guy a break...alotta folks don't know that water is incompressible...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Prolly the same folks that think you can raise water more than 9.5 metres with a suction pump.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i believe you mean well pump, almost all the auto pumps here are well pumps, the pump i use sucks from 12 meters deep and pumps upto 32 meters high, although i have to admit to only pumping the water to 21 meters high.

also if you use smaller bore pipe to go into the well, a standard pump is a 1 inch bore, so if you went down to half inch pipe into the well you can increase the stated depth of what the pump can suck from by at least 30 percent.

normally these shallow well pumps will suck to a third of the depth that they can pump upto, thats a rough guide.....

[tutsiwarrior]

badman...fair enough, in a water/air mixture the air compresses and the water does not, ie the water specific volume does not change under the same temperature conditions...'nuff said...

[badman]

tutsi, im sure you are the expert...

Water Properties

Water is a liquid usually regarded as being incompressible, and this is a sound statement at most ordinary pressures. However, at the high pressures used for driving an abrasive jet, water compresses up to 11 percent. Figure 2 shows the compression percentage at pressures up to 100,000 pounds per square inch (PSI).

If water were not compressible, the relation between the speed of the water in the stream and the upstream pressure would be given exactly by the famous Bernoulli equation as:

obviously if you need more advice on the compressability of water feel free to use your google search engine.

http://www.thefabricator.com/Articles/Fabr...ive.cfm?ID=1061

now back to my original statement that both you and jay ridiculed

on a surge of water the air compresses easier than the water so there helping a more consistent pressure coming out of the faucet.

can you actually see anything wrong with that statement mr expert tutsi???

it would probably be more helpful to forum members if you didnt post stuff that you do not actually know about, i posted a helpfull post on how to make water pressure more consistent and how to stop water hammer, you in your idiot beliefs assumed that jay was an expert, but you didnt check, you wanted to start up your normal idiot bandwagon of nay sayers, i may go on to ask at what temperature would you need water to be to get rid of all the stuff air has in it, i may also ask you where this water is, but i wont bother.....

Edited March 30, 2005 by badman

[tutsiwarrior]

badman...relax, in your original reference we are talking about an air/water mixture in which the air does indeed compress. However, if we are talking about highly deaerated feedwater going to a boiler in a power station such is not the case. For most household purposes there is bound to be air in your water supply just as there is air in a brake fluid circuit when the system is opened for repair. Hence the spongy brake pedal after repair and the need to 'bleed' the brakes.

However I challenge you to state that water is compressible if you really believe this to be the case and face the scrutiny of anyone with a background in university level physical sciences.

[badman]

erm tutsi, now its quite obvious that the old gits here like you are allowed to attack newbies like me, but i think you will find in my post and the link i have given that water is compressable by 11 percent, well its quite obvious that you didnt have the time to read it so i shall requote it for you.

Water is a liquid usually regarded as being incompressible, and this is a sound statement at most ordinary pressures. However, at the high pressures used for driving an abrasive jet, water compresses up to 11 percent. Figure 2 shows the compression percentage at pressures up to 100,000 pounds per square inch (PSI).

now if you really want i can add that to my signature line so every time i post you will see it...

here look i have made it easier for you to comprehend, yep a nice link that shows red colored water being compressed, everybody understands pictures, dont they???

the link

anyway, we were discussing your ridicule of my helpful post.

on a surge of water the air compresses easier than the water so there helping a more consistent pressure coming out of the faucet.

now a couple of days ago you found this to be a ridiculous post, can you please explain to a non expert like me where the wrong bit is, or would you rather say that you were totally wrong in your post and that you cant read to good, you and most of the posters here are very old and cantankorous, you are not willing to accept that maybe your reading or thinking skills are not upto scratch, my post stands as a good piece of advice, your post stands as just a waste of time, but obviously you will not admit that you are wrong, so i shall do more googles and post the evidence that you are wrong, how much evidence do you want tutsi?????

l

[badman]

ok mr jay and tutsi

Question

Can you compress a liquid (water)?

Asked by: Guy Matthews

Answer

The answer is yes, You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible.

To understand what happens, remember that all matter is composed of a collection of atoms. Even though matter seems to be very solid, in actuality, the atoms are relative far apart, and matter is mostly empty space. However, due to the forces between the molecules, they strongly resist being pressed closer together, but they can be. You probably have experienced compressing something as hard as steel. Have you ever bounced a steel ball bearing off a sidewalk? When you do that, the 'bounce' is due to compressing the steel ball, just a tiny little spot that comes into contact with the sidewalk. It compresses and then springs back, causing the bounce.

The water at the bottom of the ocean is compressed by the weight of the water above it all the way to the surface, and is more dense than the water at the surface.

A consequence of compressing a fluid is that the viscosity, that is the resistance of the fluid to flow, also increases as the density increases. This is because the atoms are forced closer together, and thus cannot slip by each other as easily as they can when the fluid is at atmospheric pressure.

the link

heres a nice one for you old folks...

Materials

1 20 ml plastic syringe

1 100 ml beaker

Water

A small solid object such as a rock, marble or block.

Procedure

1. The compressibility of a substance indicates the space or lack of it, between atoms or molecules. Make predictions: can you compress a solid? a liquid? a gas?

2. Fill the syringe with air by pulling the plunger of the syringe out with out having the plunger separate from the case.

3. Place your index finger over the end of the syringe

4. Can you compress the gas by pushing the plunger down? _____. If so, how far were you able to press the plunger?

5. Place about 50 ml of water in the beaker.

6. Place the tip of the plunger in the water and then fill the syringe with water by pulling the plunger out.___________

7. Depress the plunger so that only water is in the syringe. Remove air bubbles by pointing the syringe upward, tapping it and squeezing the water out.

8. Place your finger over the edge of the syringe.

9. Can you compress the liquid? ____ If so, how far were you able to press the plunger?____________

10. Pull the plunger out of the syringe and place a woodchip or pebble in the syringe.

11. Replace the plunger and depress it until the plunger comes in contact with the solid.

12. Place your finger over the end of the syringe.

13. Can you compress the solid?______ If so, how far were you able to press the plunger?_____________

14. Which of your predictions were correct? Describe what surprised you about this activity.

the linky

so, what more can i say.....

[badman]

Another tip for a more constant water pressure in your system is to install a 1" dia distribution system throughout the house, rather than the standard 3/4" system preferred here in Thailand.  Incremental cost difference is minimal, and you can still reduce to 3/4" at the tap fittings/heaters etc, overall effect is the increased system volume does tend to counteract sudden system pressure drops.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

jaidee, that would be a great idea in theory, but as all tap fittings and hot water fittings are half inch it would make it real difficult to connect up...

most buildings in thailand use half inch pipes for everything, now i got to admit that using one inch pipes as your main feed to everything is a great idea, as the volume of water helps absorb any shock from the pump etc, BUT, when you get those three quotes to build your house will you be able to explain that to the 3 differant contractors?? do you think your thai wife who has absolutely no knowledge of construction let alone construction in a proper country can explain that, if you think she can then try explaining that the moon is made of cheese, if she understands that then she stands a chance of understanding euro usa building standards.

but i have to agree with you on using the big pipes for the mains feeds...

[jayenram]

i believe you mean well pump, almost all the auto pumps here are well pumps, the pump i use sucks from 12 meters deep and pumps upto 32 meters high, although i have to admit to only pumping the water to 21 meters high.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is physically impossible to "suck" standing ground water from a depth of 12 metres. Suction depends upon causing a vacuum to draw the water up a tube. A total vacuum is 0 bara. Atmospheric pressure is in the order of 1 bara. Therefore the differential pressure created by a vacuum is 1 bar therefore 10 metres. It is virtually impossible for a pump to create a total vacuum therefore the accepted suction lift is 9.5 metres at best.

And, badman, if you are going to PM me again, could you use a dictionary or a spellchecker?

[tutsiwarrior]

oh dear...another waste of time...now in the name of 'house construction'...

badman if you want to debate principles of physics please pm me...

otherwise...get ######ed...

mods...please keep the thread open for good suggestions from others...