Bangkok Post Bans Thaivisa From Using Its Content

[opalhort]

Here is one more experiment (my first one has been removed):

For example a TV member abroad posts this question:

'What English language newspapers do you have in Thailand which I can read on-line?'

And I would reply:

'We have two newspapers with the Bangkok Post being the most popular one, but there is also the Nation you can read on-line.

Here are the links:

Thaivisa.com policy for now is that no content from Bangkok Post is allowed. Please do not link. I expect this policy to be updated within the next week. - Admin

and

The Nation

'---------

Would I break any rules imposed by TV or BP or Nation?

opalhort

[opalhort]

Guess I just got the answer to my own question in my above post.

The link to the BP gets the "oops broken link...." while the link to the Nation is working OK.

opalhort

[vanalli]

You put the link in wrong. You used two "http:"s.

[vanalli]

Well, they removed it anyway. Apparently even mentioning the words "Bangkok Post" counts as reproducing content.

[Tywais]

You put the link in wrong. You used two "http:"s.

Correct, wrong link which has been removed as per current policy set out by admin. Please do not continue "testing" to see what will happen. George will update when he has the details.

[opalhort]

Please do not continue "testing" to see what will happen. George will update when he has the details.

OK, understood. Will refrain from any more comments until we hear the full clarification from admin.

opalhort

[Artisi]

Who cares, I'm sure life will go on and we will survive.

[jfchandler]

As a former career newspaperman (meaning newspaper news reporter), I'm quite interested in this topic and the implications of this situation (traditional newspapers' control over their content in an online world)....

But as a TV reader and member, frankly, I learn far more every day about life in Thailand and useful/important things to know and do here from other TV members and their postings, than I ever have from reading the BKK Post or The Nation.

And when I do read an article published in one of the traditional English-language newspapers here, like the item last week about the court verdict in the lottery scheme case, half the time I can't decipher <deleted> the article really is saying, and the other half of the time, they often don't tell me half of what I'd want to know, based on the topic at hand. The end result, hard to believe or put much faith in what you're reading.

I've never worked as a newspaper reporter here in Thailand, only back in the U.S. for a long career. So, understanding this is a different world here in terms of journalism, I have some professional sympathy for my Thai brethren... But frankly, in terms of the NEWS product they churn out day to day, a lot of it somehow ends up being C..P... I'm just not sure exactly WHY....

[opalhort]

You put the link in wrong. You used two "http:"s.

Yes you are correct. Just looked in the records. Not the first time my mouse double clicks when I do a single click, resulting in the entire link being added to the pre-loaded 'http'

Sorry about that.

opalhort

[Thai at Heart]

This whole situation proves that the internet is a step too far for this country and it's media.

[Marvo]

This whole situation proves that the internet is a step too far for this country and it's media.

I think you're not far wrong there T@H, and the "web" available in Thailand is getting smaller by the day as the Royal Thai Police block more and more sites that they consider will be a bad influence on me.

[Plus]

This whole situation proves that the internet is a step too far for this country and it's media.

There are plenty of western media outlets that restrict access to their online editions.

Why there's this need to put down Thailand for one reason or another?

[Thai at Heart]

This whole situation proves that the internet is a step too far for this country and it's media.

There are plenty of western media outlets that restrict access to their online editions.

Why there's this need to put down Thailand for one reason or another?

Because ordinarily, they don't take the rather draconian step of preventing links to their stories. Limiting access to their online editions? Some online editions are subscription, but most mainstream newspapers that I have ever encountered don't limit access, in fact they actively encourage it.

We now have the rather grandly named SONP that is trying to "protect" itself. Good luck, because the reality is that this endeavour will probably not increase the Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP's members traffic one iota. I have always tried to abide by the fair use definition which is fair when I quote things. This should be sufficient.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, is rarely the best thing to do in business. Missing the nut altogether is even more embarrassing. TV is the new kid on the block, and probably gets more hits in an hour than Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP sites in a day.

Embrace the situation and make a better website with better journalism would be a better way forward for the Post, instead of believing that by doing this, it will improve their bottom line in any way at all.

[elcent]

news and info media is going through a lot of changes/adjustments nowadays. Rather interesting, particularly with online implications.

Taking items from Bkk Post concept could be turned askew: What it some people / some web sites took items from Thaivisa.com?

For example, what if someone had an online magazine which showcased scams in Thailand, and proceeded to get 90% of their info as cut 'n paste from Thaivisa forums/discussions?

Similarly, I have a friend who is writing a book about Buddhism and psychology. He's lifted reams of info, again cut 'n paste, from Wikipedia. Such sites as Wiki and T.visa are not a whole lot different from each other (tho much different in scale), as they both have anonymous reader input, and opinions. One big difference is Wiki enables anyone to make changes to prior text, whereas T.Visa doesn't, except by moderators.

As T.Visa grows larger in scope (which I predict it will), its exposure and clout will increasingly effect other media and other web sites, similar to how Bkk Post is currently affected by T.Visa.

part of the answer is?

you take down one and thousands of others will popup instead.

that's the magic of the internet ... lol

hence the words "citizen journalism" will make the race. Don't we want to know the truth?

Edited October 3, 2009 by elcent

[cyb]

I have a moderation question, I know as per forum rules questions of moderation issues are not allowed. But this is a valid question which i believe needs public viewing.

Bangkok post has banned linking or quoting from them that is understood.

What about links to BP before the ban came into place? Are they still allowed to remain?

[Insight]

Members quoting or posting Bangkok Post content will be warned by our moderating team, and the post will be deleted without warning.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Talk about self censorship... Bending gracefully...

Who is affraid of the bad big wolf... Pathetic... this is the internet or a scout camp?

Who is your comment aimed at? I highlighted that particular paragraph as it is poorly worded and seems to contradict itself - something I presumed would be immediately obvious to most people after it had been quoted.

[dumball]

This whole situation proves that the internet is a step too far for this country and it's media.

There are plenty of western media outlets that restrict access to their online editions.

Why there's this need to put down Thailand for one reason or another?

As has been said many times before on TV , what has the cost of icecream in another country to do with what is being commented on in regards to THAILAND , this is where YOU live .

[Plus]

We now have the rather grandly named SONP that is trying to "protect" itself. Good luck, because the reality is that this endeavour will probably not increase the Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP's members traffic one iota. I have always tried to abide by the fair use definition which is fair when I quote things. This should be sufficient.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, is rarely the best thing to do in business. Missing the nut altogether is even more embarrassing. TV is the new kid on the block, and probably gets more hits in an hour than Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP sites in a day.

Embrace the situation and make a better website with better journalism would be a better way forward for the Post, instead of believing that by doing this, it will improve their bottom line in any way at all.

Do you realize that people don't go to Bangkok Post website precisely because they get most of BP's important content on Thaivisa? Do you realize that Thaivisa gets paid when people read content produced by Bangkok Post?

How can you call it a fair use???? It's maybe fair use for you, not for Bangkok Post, and certainly a profitable business for Thaivisa, not for Bangkok Post.

Bangkok Post has not prohibited links, afaik, they only say that you can't paste any of their content on any other website. Link is not content. The only allowed content is their RSS feed.

The problem is not with only Thaivisa, btw. There are plenty of "news" websites that don't produce any news, only copy-paste articles written and paid for by others. Thaivisa is different because it's a forum, but from Bangkok Post's point of view it's all the same - sections of the forum thrive on Bangkok Post produced content, even it's posted by different members, and a lot of it is posted by official moderators, too. For some of them it's a full time job - scouting Internet for news produced by others and publishing them on Thaivisa as new topics that attract thousands of clicks and advertising revenue.

Print media has a bigger problem with television productions, btw. They are fuming that most profitable TV newstalk shows don't invest anything in news production - they just buy 15 baht newspapers, read them outloud, exchange opinions, and collect millions of baht in advertising. Without the 15 baht newspapers they would have nothing to talk about in the first place. How's that a fair use for reporters who sometime risk their lives and careers to produce big front page stories on a shoestring, only for some talking head on TV earn several million baht dissecting and criticizing it.

Where is fair use in this?

And don't tell me that it's free advertising for newspapers - the brand name might be recognizable, but fewer people buy these newspapers because they get all the important content from TV.

[elcent]

We now have the rather grandly named SONP that is trying to "protect" itself. Good luck, because the reality is that this endeavour will probably not increase the Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP's members traffic one iota. I have always tried to abide by the fair use definition which is fair when I quote things. This should be sufficient.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, is rarely the best thing to do in business. Missing the nut altogether is even more embarrassing. TV is the new kid on the block, and probably gets more hits in an hour than Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP sites in a day.

Embrace the situation and make a better website with better journalism would be a better way forward for the Post, instead of believing that by doing this, it will improve their bottom line in any way at all.

Do you realize that people don't go to Bangkok Post website precisely because they get most of BP's important content on Thaivisa? Do you realize that Thaivisa gets paid when people read content produced by Bangkok Post?

How can you call it a fair use???? It's maybe fair use for you, not for Bangkok Post, and certainly a profitable business for Thaivisa, not for Bangkok Post.

Bangkok Post has not prohibited links, afaik, they only say that you can't paste any of their content on any other website. Link is not content. The only allowed content is their RSS feed.

The problem is not with only Thaivisa, btw. There are plenty of "news" websites that don't produce any news, only copy-paste articles written and paid for by others. Thaivisa is different because it's a forum, but from Bangkok Post's point of view it's all the same - sections of the forum thrive on Bangkok Post produced content, even it's posted by different members, and a lot of it is posted by official moderators, too. For some of them it's a full time job - scouting Internet for news produced by others and publishing them on Thaivisa as new topics that attract thousands of clicks and advertising revenue.

Print media has a bigger problem with television productions, btw. They are fuming that most profitable TV newstalk shows don't invest anything in news production - they just buy 15 baht newspapers, read them outloud, exchange opinions, and collect millions of baht in advertising. Without the 15 baht newspapers they would have nothing to talk about in the first place. How's that a fair use for reporters who sometime risk their lives and careers to produce big front page stories on a shoestring, only for some talking head on TV earn several million baht dissecting and criticizing it.

Where is fair use in this?

And don't tell me that it's free advertising for newspapers - the brand name might be recognizable, but fewer people buy these newspapers because they get all the important content from TV.

LOL, no thai visa - no bangkokpost, simple like that, hahahahaha ...

[Thai at Heart]

We now have the rather grandly named SONP that is trying to "protect" itself. Good luck, because the reality is that this endeavour will probably not increase the Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP's members traffic one iota. I have always tried to abide by the fair use definition which is fair when I quote things. This should be sufficient.

Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, is rarely the best thing to do in business. Missing the nut altogether is even more embarrassing. TV is the new kid on the block, and probably gets more hits in an hour than Bangkok Post or any other of the SONP sites in a day.

Embrace the situation and make a better website with better journalism would be a better way forward for the Post, instead of believing that by doing this, it will improve their bottom line in any way at all.

Do you realize that people don't go to Bangkok Post website precisely because they get most of BP's important content on Thaivisa? Do you realize that Thaivisa gets paid when people read content produced by Bangkok Post?

How can you call it a fair use???? It's maybe fair use for you, not for Bangkok Post, and certainly a profitable business for Thaivisa, not for Bangkok Post.

Bangkok Post has not prohibited links, afaik, they only say that you can't paste any of their content on any other website. Link is not content. The only allowed content is their RSS feed.

The problem is not with only Thaivisa, btw. There are plenty of "news" websites that don't produce any news, only copy-paste articles written and paid for by others. Thaivisa is different because it's a forum, but from Bangkok Post's point of view it's all the same - sections of the forum thrive on Bangkok Post produced content, even it's posted by different members, and a lot of it is posted by official moderators, too. For some of them it's a full time job - scouting Internet for news produced by others and publishing them on Thaivisa as new topics that attract thousands of clicks and advertising revenue.

Print media has a bigger problem with television productions, btw. They are fuming that most profitable TV newstalk shows don't invest anything in news production - they just buy 15 baht newspapers, read them outloud, exchange opinions, and collect millions of baht in advertising. Without the 15 baht newspapers they would have nothing to talk about in the first place. How's that a fair use for reporters who sometime risk their lives and careers to produce big front page stories on a shoestring, only for some talking head on TV earn several million baht dissecting and criticizing it.

Where is fair use in this?

And don't tell me that it's free advertising for newspapers - the brand name might be recognizable, but fewer people buy these newspapers because they get all the important content from TV.

If BP wants to see Thai Visa as competition, that is their perogative. I subscribe to BP alerts for headlines via text, which keeps me up to date. I read both the Nation and the BP online, although the websites are pretty poor. Placing their headlines and a link is considered fair use, which is fair enough. I don't subscribe to the point of view that people should be able to replicate entire articles either. I don't come to TV for news per se, although others might.

Thaivisa fills a hole in the market as a discussion forum. The BP and Nation blogs are very poor for that. Both can co-exist perfectly. It is noticeable that things get written in the "Share your thoughts" section of the BP that would never pass muster in TV and would be deleted by moderators here in a second.

I notice that you mention the television discussion forums. It has been a worldwide phenomenon to discuss the headlines in the papers for donkey's years. They take the mickey here in Thailand and read the entire article out loud. This should have been stopped ages ago.

The problem with BP or the Nation for that matter is they have virtually no investigative journalism that makes them dig up something that isn't available elsewhere. Unfortunately Thaksin saw to it that investigating something can put a newspaper out of business. The layout of the BP website is an absolute mess, the headlines sitting there as we speak are Philippines, Sondhi gets his 6 months (lunchtime), a book of illustrations about Asean (is this headline material), and Rio De Janeiro gets the Olympics (Thai related, one day late) All the local juice is hiding in the back of the local news.

TV is teamed up with the Nation, so be it. There is very little you can't find in the Nation in terms of factual reporting that isn't interchangeable in the BP. Removing quotes or headlines or in the extreme links also probably won't do any damage whatsoever to TV, but will probably end up reducing traffic on the BP.

[Plus]

Thaivisa and BP are not a competition, maybe only in a sense of Steve Balmer's joke about Microsoft competing with pirates: "They've got better price and, to be honest, a really great product".

Thaivisa partnership with the Nation really saves the day. Without those two news producers there would be no local news to discuss.

The matter is not being settled yet. BP's demand for RSS only probably stems from their agreement with their advertisers and technological capabilities. I'm sure in due time there will be better solutions, like, for example, loading BP content in our posts straight from their website, together with some ads. I've never seen anything like this, but there are plenty of sites that dynamically load outside content when you mouse over certain words. The technology is fairly simple.

[Maestro]

An off-topic post about "Thaksin Cabinet guilty of violating lottery law" has been deleted.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

An off-topic post about a website with information about television programs and the off-topic reply to it have been deleted.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

An off-topic post, starting off with a statement saying that it is off topic, has been deleted.

--

Maestro

[RKASA]

I have e mails from Bangkok Post and nothing is wrong with the normal fair use of quotes by readers and or posters in Thaivisa.  Only the admin are not allowed to steal whole items and copy paste them in treads.   Something that has never been legal.  They and nothing to do with us can work out an RSS deal over that issue.  

This has gotten totally out of whack.  Deleting a post with a ref to or a quote from Bangkok Post in terms of fair use is wrong and completely unnecessary according to the Bangkok Post.   If Thaivisa would read the Post's fair use page they would understand this,  even I understood it.

Some of this deleting I feel may be a tit for tat between Bangkok Post and Admin over the posting of complete items and is drawing members into their schoolyard fight.   Bangkok Posts has a right to protect their property from being used for commercial purposes without compensation.  

The issue was never about the fair use of news information or the users and or readers.  If I quote here something in Bangkok Post and its delete over this issue it because Thaivisa has chosen to censor Bangkok Post from its users, not because Bangkok Post won't let readers and users quote or link.

[phetaroi]

I cannot load Bangkok Post anymore these days on firefox or chrome. It just won't load. I leave it loading for 10 minutes and come back, and all I see is the header. Their traffic may be down as they have problems with their web servers orsomething. I do not have this problem with any other site and have a fast connection, though in the U.S. right now.

I think it must be you. I use Firefox and at least glance at the BP daily.

I do agree with an earlier poster. For years when I was visiting Thailand, the BP hard copy was my first choice...by far. Now the opposite is true.

The issues here are not much different than in the U.S. Newspapers are struggling big time. Several large ones have gone under. Their income is falling, and let's face it, income is what they're there for...just as is ThaiVisa.

I have to admit that neither the BP or ThaiVisa seems very creative about solving the issue -- so far --, and that is shortsighted for both. Perhaps, however, TV will, after taking more time, seek a more advantageous solution. After all, this has come up rather quickly and they may need some time to deal with the issue.

[Plus]

Could you just wait until it blows over and some normalcy restored, probably next week?

Can't you survive a day without quoting Bangkok Post?

The forum admin made it pretty clear - don't do it for now. New rules will be properly announced, why try to impose your own version of "fair use"? Just to piss off the mods?

[phetaroi]

Don't newspapers usually believe in freedom of speech? I guess just not their speech.

News organizations are as hypocritical as anyone else. Over the years in the U.S. I have watched reporters go to jail to "protect their sources" rather than cooperate with the courts and the justice system. They say they need to protect their integrity and independence.

On the other hand, NBC News regularly features a high ratings broadcast where they work directly with the police to lure men to meeting what they think are underage girls who are then arrested...while NBC films and broadcasts the whole episode.

Funny how ratings drive the relationship with the justice system in the latter case.

[Plus]

I have to admit that neither the BP or ThaiVisa seems very creative about solving the issue...

Be realistic. No one knows what the best solution for all parties is, that has to be negotiated first, and there are many other websites, not just Thaivisa, that would also want to take part and Bangkok Post needs to offer a solution suitable to all.

Then there are technical issues. BP's webmaster has to implement that solution, and that would take time, but it's even worse for TV - it buys the standard forum software from a third party and so has very limited ability to tweak it, and it's also going through the major forum upgrade, and that is not going as well as they hoped.

I have no idea how TV would implement the RSS feed into discussion board. I think in the end BP will allow members to post headlines and short quotes with direct links, but not as topic started by TV team itself. Better solutions are just beyond the local level or expertize.

[Thai at Heart]

Better solutions are just beyond the local level or expertize.

Didn't someone have a go at me for bashing Thailand earlier?