Strange Situation

[chrischris]

Hello everyone.

I find myself in a very strange, almost surreal situation. If any of the forum members have any advice, however trivial or seemingly minor I would very much appreciate it. I also take on the chin the fact that it was me and me alone that created this situation. Those amongst us that have never erred or screwed up might as well look away now..........

6 years ago I fell madly in love with a lady who is now my wife. We are of similar ages and I was only holidaying in Thailand to accompany a friend who had recently suffered a bereavement. I was single at the time, 42 years old (48 now) and could not have wished for a better companion than the woman I met whilst dining out in a restaurant.

A year later, after a further 4 holidays together, I took a life decision and moved to Thailand. My then girlfriend's daughter was at the time, 6 years old. I believed that as I was to be the partner of my girlfriend then I should also offer a home and future to her daughter. And so we all set up home together. We bought a small restaurant (I did not have a great deal of money, but knew that my girlfriend was a hard worker and so off we went).

For three years we did OK. We did not make a fortune but managed to buy a small house and also had a baby girl who is now nearly 3 years old. So, in a nutshell the four of us (my wife's daughter aged now 12, my wife and our daughter) were doing OK.

Then the downturn came, the landlord put up the rent, and a few more events occurred (closing the airport etc) and all of a sudden we started to eat into our savings. Last March we had to sell our small house, and in July we closed the business.

I should say at this point that my 'adopted' daughter is not legally adopted as her 'natural' father refuses to sign the release forms, and I do not have the money to pay him.

Also, my 3 year old daughter has a British citizen certificate, and a British passport, issued two months after her birth. I was married formally 3 years ago and immediately registered the marriage in the UK

My family have never been to the UK. We never had the spare cash.

Anyway, in August I finally bit the bullet and returned to the UK. We were basically skint. I have since tried to find work but it is nigh on impossible. I have no property or assets but I do have a moderately paid job, have a rented, small house and do not intend to claim any social security.

However, my family in Thailand are also at their wits end. They have little money which does not cover schools etc, but at least they have a place to live and food. My wife works and gets around 5000 baht a month.

So, what do I do? Apparently I cannot apply for them to all come to the UK because:

a. I do not have the money for the visa applications.

b. I do not own a property - I am only renting a 2 bedroomed house.

c. At the moment I do not have a well paid job) but I'm determined that I can take care of the three of them

Apparently, I can fly back to Thailand, take my 3 year old daughter to the UK and she can live with me, (due to her British citizenship) but as for her mother or her sister, the door is closed.

So from going from a family that lived happily and was doing OK, it seems we are now destined to be separated for the foreseeable future, I must only see my daughters for 2 weeks a year if I can afford the flights etc....... or I can separate my youngest daughter from her mother and sister !!!

Does anyone have any constructive suggestions other than 'get a life loser', 'what do you expect' etc etc.

If you have managed to read this far, many thanks.

regards

Chris

[kimamey]

Unfortunately I have no advice to give but I feel really sorry for you and your family. You say you got yourself into this but it dosen't seem to have been your fault. I really don't understand why someone like you can't bring his family here to be with him when so many others less deserving manage it.

I only hope you get some good advice here and I wish you and your family better luck for the future.

[CharlieB]

Sorry to hear about your situation and I don't think you should be so hard on yourself. I can't see where you have made any horrendously stupid decisions. You tried to live the dream and unfortunately it hasn't paid off.

As for your visa 'problems'. They probably aren't as big as you think. You don't need to own your own house. If you have a rental agreement to show in an application and it has enough room for your family then you should be ok on the accomodation front. You also don't have to be earning hundreds of thousands of pounds in order to meet the financial means. As long as you have a job with a reasonable amount of money coming into your account and can cover your monthly expenses with some to spare to take care of your family then you should be ok. Your wife would also be eligible to work as soon as she got here, so she could also bring in a bit of money if needed. Not much advice I can give on the money for the visa applications. Can you get a small loan from your bank to cover the costs?

Hope you can get some hope from this. Try and make your finances look as good as you can for a few months and apply to get your family over. If you can get the money together for the applications and flights I'm sure you'll all be back together again soon.

If you do decide to go for the visa's you can post here for any particular help you require.

Edited October 5, 2009 by CharlieB

[the scouser]

The situation that the OP describes is, unfortunately, hardly strange these days. More and more folk are falling foul of the parlous economic conditions of the planet. Mind you, some sage once commented that capitalism contains within it the seeds of its own decay.

If the visa application fees can't be met, then there is no way the OP's wife and step-daughter can even apply for visas. However, providing he can show, inter alia, that in day-to-day terms there is enough income to take care of the entire family unit in the UK, then it doesn't really matter who pays the visa fees. Likewise, that the property may be only rented is no bar.

[7by7]

Indeed.

Chris, have a read through Maintenance and accommodation and you may find things aren't as bad as you fear. You need to show that, after paying your rent, you have enough to support your family, but it does not need to be much:

In 2006, the UKAIT in UKAIT 00065 KA and Others (Pakistan), strongly suggested that it would not be appropriate to have immigrant families existing on resources that were less than the Income Support level for a British family of that size

The money you live on once in the UK needs to come from your own resources, but the visa fee does not. Do you have any friends or family that could lend you the money for the visa fees?

[Geekfreaklover]

Would seem that it may be possible to have a visa issued to your wife and 3 year old daughter if you demonstrate that you have somewhere to stay and you have a job with a regular income. The immigration system is based around the idea that you will not be a drain to the system back home. But what about the 12 year old? If the father will not sign then you won't be able to travel altogether. It might be best to save up for 6 months or a year and return to thailand and apply for a visa for the mother and your dependants, which may involve paying off the bilogical father of your eldest child.

[DC1066]

Hi Chris,

Like others I think you are being too hard on yourseld - its just life mate, particularly in the current climate.

I'm no expert but I do think your problems are not as large as you think. As others have said, you don't need to own your own house, just have suitable accomodation - which can be rented - and enough income to support your wife and step-daughter 'without recourse to public funds'.

I obviously don't know in detail your financial circumstances, but visa fees and flights together could be paid by credit cards etc in the worse case scenario. Your biggest problem I guess is the situation with the father of your step-daughter. Sadly this again might just be a case of negotiation. Let him know you haven't got a lot of money but make him an offer you can afford and make him realise its all he's likely to get.

One bit of good news not yet covered though, whilst you can't claim befenfits for your wife or step daughter, you can for your natural daughter. This means child benefit, working families tax credits etc. I'd suggest you look further into this with someone who knows what they're talking aboutand you might find that your income could be improved considerably after your wife and daughters came here. Don't forget also that your wife is allowed to work on a settlement visa which could also help.

Whatever you do with it, good luck and I hope it works out.

DC

[7by7]

I should say at this point that my 'adopted' daughter is not legally adopted as her 'natural' father refuses to sign the release forms, and I do not have the money to pay him.

You do not need to legally adopt her in order to get a visa for her.

However, your wife will need to show that she has sole custody. This may have been sorted out when she divorced the girl's father, but if not then she needs to do it now.

The easy way is that both parents attend the ampur and sign some forms. This obviously requires the father's cooperation, and if he wont oblige then the other option is through the courts; a lengthy and possibly expensive process, I'm afraid.

However, I have heard that in cases where the mother can show that the father has taken no interest in the child that some ampurs will issue a sole custody document without any input from the father.

Can anyone confirm if this is so?

See also Settlement, children

[kennkate]

I should say at this point that my 'adopted' daughter is not legally adopted as her 'natural' father refuses to sign the release forms, and I do not have the money to pay him.

You do not need to legally adopt her in order to get a visa for her.

However, your wife will need to show that she has sole custody. This may have been sorted out when she divorced the girl's father, but if not then she needs to do it now.

The easy way is that both parents attend the ampur and sign some forms. This obviously requires the father's cooperation, and if he wont oblige then the other option is through the courts; a lengthy and possibly expensive process, I'm afraid.

However, I have heard that in cases where the mother can show that the father has taken no interest in the child that some ampurs will issue a sole custody document without any input from the father.

daughter

Can anyone confirm if this is so?

See also Settlement, children

My Wife obtained the sole custody document for her daughter. No problem If you get the right person to go with you to the

Ampur. or better still see the right person at the Ampur. it can be sorted without the farther ever knowing

That way it keeps it nice and simple 1500 or a bottle of whiskey

[tjthai]

chrischris

Having read your post I feel for you all. I think the advice so far has been very good, we're all pretty constructive on this thread...not the norm I know!

Sole Custody is one thing but how long has your wife been solely responsible for her daughter? If your Wife has looked after her daughter for many years (with proof) then perhaps a lawyer may be cheaper than having to pay off the Father.....I know neither option is great but it really depends on who is going to be cheaper to pay!

As others have said don't be so hard on yourself, do not beat yourself up over what has happened. I think there are many (myself most definitely included) that wish their decisions regarding life had been more succesful the first time around....be it in the UK or here in the land of smiles!

You have made the right decision for both you, your wife and your daughters. Being married and living together here in Thailand proving your relationship shouldn't be difficult so as long as you can prove adequate accomodation and income in the UK the biggest hurdle is going to be your stepdaughter and proving she needs to stay with her mother and does not have anyone that can look after her in Thailand.

We are in the process of appeal with our application for my wife (granted) and stepdaughter (refused).

Having learnt the hard way what is required (make sure you have letters and statements as proof etc from family for the application and don't rely on simply stating the true facts - burden of proof on applicant) we feel that we can now offer some words of wisdom.

Please feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this away from public scrutiny........having said that most of us on here have been through the mill (or still grinding through it!) and are alright to talk to

We wish you the very best of luck and can only say....keep posting and keep positive.

TJ

Edited October 6, 2009 by tjthai

[7by7]

With respect, TJ, Chris's situation regarding his step-daughter is a little different to yours.

From what he has posted it appears that the girl has been in the care of her mother for most, if not all, of her life; where in your case your step-daughter did spend a considerable length of time in the care of her father's family.

Therefore, although it is still important, Chris should find showing that his wife has been exercising sole responsibility simpler and easier than you did.

Having said that, I am sure that he, and others in similar situations, will find your input useful and welcome.

[chrischris]

I am extremely grateful to all of you who have either replied or simply read my post. The lightening of my mood is massive and I thank you all. The advice re: finances (tax credits, family allowance), using my credit cards as a means to a short-term way of raising finance, and above all, the 'sole custody document' is sound and has given me ample scope for further research. For info, my step-daughter has been with my wife since one year old - her biological father has not seen her for 9 years, so maybe I have a good case for this course of action. Also, you are right, I need to get things sorted out in the UK then go into battle with the immigration officers! Once again folks, many thanks, particularly for not condemning an already 'short-on confidence' man...... cheers

[kimamey]

Glad to see you've got some good advice and that it's made you feel better. After I read your post the next day I couldn't stop thinking about it and how you and your family must be suffering. You and your wife seem to be hard working people who deserve a break which I hope you get.

On the subject of finance don't get involved with loan sharks (sure you wouldn't anyway) and before you use a credit card see if there are other options like a bank loan. Might be more difficult but if you can afford to pay the interest on a credit card then you should be able to afford a loan as the interest would be less.There may be something local like a credit union.

Anyway all the best and it would be great if you could let us know how you get on.

[tjthai]

With respect, TJ, Chris's situation regarding his step-daughter is a little different to yours.

From what he has posted it appears that the girl has been in the care of her mother for most, if not all, of her life; where in your case your step-daughter did spend a considerable length of time in the care of her father's family.

7by7 I wasn't trying to compare our situations other than just saying we both have stepdaughters and where the child's application is concerned Sole Responsibility and Custody are the crucial points that need to be proved. Our situation is different, as you rightly point out, but I wanted to emphasis the need for proof.....something our application lacked at the beginning but have gathered enough (I hope) to satisfy the embassy now!

We have sent email, faxes etc but, as yet, have heard nothing.......we anxiously wait....again

TJ

[chiang mai]

I can't offer any advice above and beyond what's already been posted except to urge you to keep going with it all because with an attitude like yours you will get there in the end, good luck.

[galvheim]

I feel with you too, Chris. And as the last poster says, you will get there in the end. Allthough it can feel strange and surreal right now, just being ripped apart from the ones you love and feeling Thaland beeing as far away as the moon right now. I can understand the mountain of things having to be sorted out one by one can feel daunting and make it hard to see beyond that. It is very common, and in your case it's amplified since you have been there such a long time and away from your country so long too. Try to focus on what you have to do and be strong.

Only advice I can give you since you are on a tight budget now but stil want to keep in touch with your family is a program called FreeCall (www.freecall.com) which you can call your wife and kids for only €0.3 pr. hour, or €0,005 pr. minute to mobile-phones in Thailand. This requieres a computer, headsaet and mic, and a minimum 64-kbit up/down-stream cable, DSL internet connection (which is very little). To landlines in Thailand I thinks it is free.

Anyway, I wish you best of luck!

[7by7]

Or try Phone Cheap (0844 200 98 98). Calls are 0.5p per minute and can be made from an ordinary landline. You can call from a mobile, but may have to pay your standard rate to be connected to the 0844 number.

(I have no connection with this company.)

[alyx]

Agreed with everyone but for what it is worth I would try anything to come back to Thailand after saving a bit of money and try to open a new restaurant as you did at the beginning.

It would be difficult at the beginning but nevertheles you all would be together as life in Europe (cost of living in UK is one of the highest) would put any family in jeopardy if the means of subsistance were low whereas, in Thailand, it might be bearable

[alyx]

On the other hand, I am not familiar with it but, I think that a consequent amount is needed in the account in order to get yourself on a mariage visa and you obviously haven't had the time nor the means to save that

I wish noone to be in that difficult, agonising situation but I hope you will succeed in reuniting

[Gats]

It sounds to me like the biggest issue you have is getting the older daughter of your wife to be considerd adopted by you. Solve that first in thailand and you'll find the rest easier.

There are people who can help with this and will happily do so and there are allowances for this to happen if you can demonstrate that you have been the carer of her for many years. I had a friend who went through a similar situation recently and it took a bit of pushing, but he got there with a very moderate sallary and a lot of letter writing. He's always said to be patient and visible (ie go in personally and send enquiring letters to MPs in your area). Australia tends to see children as being a big reason for special consideration and I'd imagine the UK does too.

Some things that might help

- If you can't get the father to sign off on the child to be adopted by you. Get your wife a spouse visa first and apply for the daughter when it's granted. get advice on this as i'm no expert, but that's what my mate did and it worked well (if not long winded) as the app for the child was not a matter of your custody, but hers.. easier to prove and easier to classify

- If you can prove such an ongoing and sincere relationship, there really shouldn't be a problem (as long as you won't be destitute which can only happen on almost no income). 2 bedroom apartment is not a reason to deny you your family.

- Keep records of all your contact with your wife in this hard period too as it shows you aren't breaking up. If in internet cafes, turn logging on on your chat program and save the dialogue. Don't use prepaid phones as they don't have phone bills with loads of thai calls on them.

- Get your wife doing leg work in the meantime to get statements from all friends and family in thailand that know you looked after the older daughter. even people who did business with your restaraunt.

- Write to local MPs in your home town. Ask questions and strike up even a small off-hand dialogue in case you need more later.

- I HATE reccomending debt, but even on a moderate sallary the greedy banks will throw you a credit card for emergencies. Hold on to it and when everything's organised, go in hard.

- There are loooads of people on here with similar situations. Don't be lazy and make sure you add them all to your favs list.

- Pray. Many would disagree, but it helps me.

- Research research research... there's so much paperwork in the permanent visa app, but if you can prove your a family and you're educated and prepared, you'll get there.

Sounds like you're not to blame mate. I've been hitting myself for not being more prepared for current application with my partner, but you can't do anything but keep pushing until you're there. 1 day at a time.

[Deserted]

If you have any teaching qualifications and experience, you could go to the gulf region to work for a while. You'd be paid well and by law your employer must provide accommodation for you and your family. Since you are married, you wouldn't have any problems with your wife gaining a visa. Many people make such a move for such reasons.

Give it some thought mate.

[Sporting Dog]

Can't offer any advice but good luck, the future must be lookinga bit bleak at the moment but I'm sure you'll get thru. Small steps will get you a long way eventualy.

[cuddleypete]

chris so sorry to hear your situation keep your chin up keep reading on hear take your time and get it right (as it is not cheap to do visa etc) it will come right in the end ok

All the best to you and your family,

Have you heard of the i phone card you can call thailand cheap from mobile to mobile or landline to mobile cost £5.00 the card for 3,000 mins i think ,you can get from newsagents.

[stevymac]

my best advice to you is save up some money for flight back to thailand an just get a job teachin english, thats wot most farangs do ere an it means u can be with ur family.

[juanellis]

With regard to the child custody, my wife had to go to the amphur along with two witnesses to obtain one of these:

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/custody_cert.pdf

It was required in Thailand before she could get a passport for her children without their father's signature. The same form was used at the US embassy for their visa application.

The witnesses (a sister and an aunt) attested to the fact that the father's whereabouts were unknown and that my wife had been solely responsible for their well being. Also, she was asked by the clerk for taxi fare (500 thb!!) since it was close to quitting time and he might miss his bus and have to take a taxi home.

[7by7]

It sounds to me like the biggest issue you have is getting the older daughter of your wife to be considerd adopted by you. Solve that first in thailand and you'll find the rest easier.

Inter country adoption is a complicated issue and at best would only lengthen the procedure and be more expensive.

For starters, I'm not sure if an adoption in Thailand is recognised in the UK (see this post).

Secondly, as can be seen from SET7.18 How do adopted children qualify for settlement? onward, it is a complex area.

Thirdly, one must show that the child has not been adopted merely to facilitate entry to the UK.

It is not necessary for the OP to adopt his step-daughter in order for her to settle in the UK; as long as the custody and sole responsibility issues are sorted, then if her mum gets a visa, so will she.

[MonsieurHulot]

I don't have any constructive suggestions but I wish you and your family the best of luck.

You told us a story I can relate to.

[Pakboong]

I should say at this point that my 'adopted' daughter is not legally adopted as her 'natural' father refuses to sign the release forms, and I do not have the money to pay him.

You do not need to legally adopt her in order to get a visa for her.

However, your wife will need to show that she has sole custody. This may have been sorted out when she divorced the girl's father, but if not then she needs to do it now.

The easy way is that both parents attend the ampur and sign some forms. This obviously requires the father's cooperation, and if he wont oblige then the other option is through the courts; a lengthy and possibly expensive process, I'm afraid.

However, I have heard that in cases where the mother can show that the father has taken no interest in the child that some ampurs will issue a sole custody document without any input from the father.

daughter

Can anyone confirm if this is so?

See also Settlement, children

My Wife obtained the sole custody document for her daughter. No problem If you get the right person to go with you to the

Ampur. or better still see the right person at the Ampur. it can be sorted without the farther ever knowing

That way it keeps it nice and simple 1500 or a bottle of whiskey

My GF also got sole custody at the Amphur and it only cost her 500baht. She couldn't believe how simple it actually was.

[JayF]

Sorry I can't add much anything in the way of advice not already posted and I'm not trying to make this political, but it has to be said.

It sickens me that decent, seemingly hardworking British citizens like the OP are treated this way by our current government, while at the same time they are letting all manner of scum come crawling through the channel tunnel and welcoming them with open arms, asylum they don't need and benefit packages based on how fast they can spawn. This young girl has a British Father and a British Passport and her Mother is married to a Brit and it doesn't sound like they are living in the best situation, apparently through no real fault of their own. They should be helped to get here and welcomed to Britain, not impeded. How about turning back a few truckloads to Calais, or cutting off multi-billion pound aid packages to countries with space programmes (India) and spending the money on British people and their families genuinely in need of assistance while money is tight around the world? Or is that too politically incorrect? God it makes my blood boil. Sorry, rant over.

I really feel for you Chris, I hope you manage to sort things out for you and yours soon.

All the best.

[Eff1n2ret]

Sorry I can't add much anything in the way of advice not already posted and I'm not trying to make this political, but it has to be said.

It sickens me that decent, seemingly hardworking British citizens like the OP are treated this way by our current government, while at the same time they are letting all manner of scum come crawling through the channel tunnel and welcoming them with open arms, asylum they don't need and benefit packages based on how fast they can spawn. This young girl has a British Father and a British Passport and her Mother is married to a Brit and it doesn't sound like they are living in the best situation, apparently through no real fault of their own. They should be helped to get here and welcomed to Britain, not impeded. How about turning back a few truckloads to Calais, or cutting off multi-billion pound aid packages to countries with space programmes (India) and spending the money on British people and their families genuinely in need of assistance while money is tight around the world? Or is that too politically incorrect? God it makes my blood boil. Sorry, rant over.

I really feel for you Chris, I hope you manage to sort things out for you and yours soon.

All the best.

I can assure you that there are many on the front line of what used to be known as the Immigration Service who share exactly the same frustrations as you have expressed. Unfortunately the carpetbaggers who now run the so-called "UK Border Agency" have never worked on the front line and thus, whatever their misgivings about the current state of affairs, haven't the backbone to force a solution to the problems which you highlight. Cutting off aid to some upstart countries in various parts of the world would certainly concentrate a few minds and stop the nonsense of refusing to take their own nationals back without a passport, which is what happens at the moment, and is the real reason why there are so many who come to the UK in the near-certainty that they wont be removed.