mrbp Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 All of you people who are getting the hot under the collar and saying things like "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "How can you call a whole nation musically unsophisticated" etc etc You are missing the point, it's not unsophisticated and closed minded because most Thais prefer Issan music and Madonna to Miles Davis and Mozart it's because of the complete lack of interest in anything BUT Issan music and the Top 10 Most Brits listen to Boyzone and Girls Aloud but you can still guarantee that every town and city has got a large group of people who want to go deeper than the charts. Every city in the UK will have a club where the goths go, the punks go, a club were jazz funk fans go, a northern soul night, a hip hop night blah blah and each of these nights will have hundreds if not thousands of people in attendance. The same goes for most European, American, South American cities and especially somewhere like Tokyo. The same cannot be said for Thailand yet they get exposed to Western counter culture all the time. I meet so many Thais that say they love hip hop and house music but they don't mean it, they mean chart music made by black artists and house remixes of chart music nothing else. I always held out hope that I would find the funky little counter cultures but other than about ten Thai friends who are scattered all over the country there is no alternative music scene that I or any of the music industry people I know have found. So it's not that they like what they like it's that hardly anyone in Thailand says <deleted> the charts we want something different and that is the definition of lack of musical sophistication. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder surely so is ugliness, it's just as valid for me to say Issan music sounds like cats being strangled as it is for Thai people to sit down with a scowl on their face when I play my music. So TallForeigner enough with your politically correct chastising, as far as me and Smithy go there really is a lack of "decent music" in Thailand. I have lost count of the amount of times that Thais have told me themselves "WE DON'T LIKE MUSIC WE DON'T KNOW" They openly say it, they don't diplomatically say in my extensive experience most not all people from Thailand blah blah blah They just say "Thai people don't like music they don't know" and in my experience they are right to say that the majority of Thais don't want to hear any new music at all unless it is filtered through a coperate entity like MTV. So enough of this politically correct tosh. Most Thais are not open minded musically. Hammmered you are right my music is for a minority of adventurous music lovers but Thailand is the first country I have ever been to where that funky minority are non existent. Also I would hardly call Motown, Stax and all the other artists I mentioned unknown fringe music so I'm surprised the expats don't get that stuff. As for India it's a whole different ballgame, it's a lot better in Goa than it is in Himachal Pradesh for Western music but the traditional music I heard in Himachal Pradesh was sublime. The problem with my music in India is the kind of Westerners you get in India are hippy backpackers and they want psy trance and Manu Chao none of that city boy music I play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Most Thais are not open minded musically. Another manifestation of a hierarchical social structure/education system. Look at the movies in the cinemas here, same difference. I agree with you. This country is extremely intellectually incurious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswatson Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 All of you people who are getting the hot under the collar and saying things like "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "How can you call a whole nation musically unsophisticated" etc etc You are missing the point, it's not unsophisticated and closed minded because most Thais prefer Issan music and Madonna to Miles Davis and Mozart it's because of the complete lack of interest in anything BUT Issan music and the Top 10 Most Brits listen to Boyzone and Girls Aloud but you can still guarantee that every town and city has got a large group of people who want to go deeper than the charts. Every city in the UK will have a club where the goths go, the punks go, a club were jazz funk fans go, a northern soul night, a hip hop night blah blah and each of these nights will have hundreds if not thousands of people in attendance. The same goes for most European, American, South American cities and especially somewhere like Tokyo. The same cannot be said for Thailand yet they get exposed to Western counter culture all the time. I meet so many Thais that say they love hip hop and house music but they don't mean it, they mean chart music made by black artists and house remixes of chart music nothing else. I always held out hope that I would find the funky little counter cultures but other than about ten Thai friends who are scattered all over the country there is no alternative music scene that I or any of the music industry people I know have found. So it's not that they like what they like it's that hardly anyone in Thailand says <deleted> the charts we want something different and that is the definition of lack of musical sophistication. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder surely so is ugliness, it's just as valid for me to say Issan music sounds like cats being strangled as it is for Thai people to sit down with a scowl on their face when I play my music. So TallForeigner enough with your politically correct chastising, as far as me and Smithy go there really is a lack of "decent music" in Thailand. I have lost count of the amount of times that Thais have told me themselves "WE DON'T LIKE MUSIC WE DON'T KNOW" They openly say it, they don't diplomatically say in my extensive experience most not all people from Thailand blah blah blah They just say "Thai people don't like music they don't know" and in my experience they are right to say that the majority of Thais don't want to hear any new music at all unless it is filtered through a coperate entity like MTV. So enough of this politically correct tosh. Most Thais are not open minded musically. Hammmered you are right my music is for a minority of adventurous music lovers but Thailand is the first country I have ever been to where that funky minority are non existent. Also I would hardly call Motown, Stax and all the other artists I mentioned unknown fringe music so I'm surprised the expats don't get that stuff. As for India it's a whole different ballgame, it's a lot better in Goa than it is in Himachal Pradesh for Western music but the traditional music I heard in Himachal Pradesh was sublime. The problem with my music in India is the kind of Westerners you get in India are hippy backpackers and they want psy trance and Manu Chao none of that city boy music I play Agree with all of that. Some poster's have responded without really understanding the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Briefly summed up "cr%p", totally agree, and I've yet to hear one with an even passable voice. Elvis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BugJackBaron Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 It seems the OP is just upset that he can't find anywhere to listen to the particular sort of music he likes.If that's the case he should start a night somewhere playing it. There are plenty of venues in BKK that will let you come in and do night. It's certainly true that Thailand isn't as musically diverse as the the UK, USA or Europe. That said if you look about there are people doing electronic, indie, alternative etc in BKK. I think the OP needs to get out more and dig a bit deeper. The other thing to bear in mind is that Thai music tends to be more about entertainment than art or creative expression. Most Thais want to be able to sit with their friends and a bottle of whiskey singing along to songs that they know. This is Sanuk It is total crap. What I find interesting about it is that it reminds me of the horrible music in the 50s in the USA........Dorris Day and "How Much is that Doggie in the Window" stuff. It is singalong crap.......sweet and mindless crap.........nothing deep.......nothing that makes you think (maybe that is one reason for it........they don't have to think and don't like thinking). Perhaps, just perhaps.......we will see a Dylan-like figure emerge in Thailand followed by an explosion of creativity. That would be great. For now. it is total crap......even some of the songs that are supposedly good are rip offs.......I heard one the other day and thought, "Santana riff." Stolen....... A truly original song.........a truly original artist who channels songs........taps into something new (hard to do these days)..............I have never seen or heard one in Thailand. Having said that, what do we now have in the USA (for the last 20 years): Crap...........sometimes called Rap. I heard Van Morrison in an interview the other day..........he was asked what he listens to and gets inspired by today. He said that the current music scene offers him nothing new........it has all been done before.......he no longer listens to it. He went on to say that he is listening to the old songs that stimulated him in the first place........guessing some old 50s and 60s tunes given his age. Anyway..........I think I would like to see some creativity.........something new. And it frustrates me that Thais are so opposed to anything new. What's wrong with "how much is that doggy in the window?" And though I originally thought I hated rap, I have to admit that there is some good stuff there...even ice T! And by the way I am from a generation that grew up with the beatles. Thai music from the north is often sentimental, just like country music in the west. I actually believe they have a lot in common. Again, not always that bad. I think some old foggies out there need to open their ears up a little.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbp Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 Most Thais are not open minded musically. Another manifestation of a hierarchical social structure/education system. Look at the movies in the cinemas here, same difference. I agree with you. This country is extremely intellectually incurious. I think you might be right about Thai culture having something to do with it. I taught in a school and they are taught by rote from any early age. You remember what the teacher tells you and you don't ask questions or it's the big stick for you. Curiousity and questions like 'why' are seen as a challenge to the authority of the teachers so a good Thai student should not have an inquiring mind. Education in Thailand is all about obedience to authority not mind expanding inquiry and looking at things from your personal perspective. Thailand is a collective culture not an individualistic culture. You can't decide to be a republican or make a rebellious song like The Sex Pistols did or you would be imprisoned. The idea of all Brits loving the Queen or all Americans loving the President is a completely alien idea to us but the fact that all Thais are royalists points to a certain kind of collective thinking which probably has something to do with why Thais can be so homogenous musically. Music in Thailand seems to be part of that collective thing instead of individual taste. Most sophisticated modern music comes from rebelion. From blues & jazz to rock etc it's all about saying F YOU we've got our own thing. That is absent in Thailand, because rebellion is such a NO NO.....maybe thats why. just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phetaroi Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 In Thailand there is almost no market for any edgy or sophisticated music it just ain't welcomed by the Thais or the fanrangs.Why is that? Any thoughts? You're so wrong. Just today I was walking through Central World and in the background heard Doris Day singing "Que Sera, Sera". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswatson Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) I maintain my earlier post that Thai music has not been massively influenced by radically different cultures in the way Western music has been influenced by African. You can trace Thai music influence to her Asian neighbours, but it's not been impacted in the same way as "our" music has been by music from a different continent. Perhaps because of this, and the "drone-like" collectivism of Thai culture as a whole, their music is reactionary rather than progressive and does not open itself out to experimentation. European music has it's own (relatively niche) tribes e.g. so-called folk, so-called avant garde, german rock and classical orchestras, but is nonetheless as whole dominated by American-influenced structures which are assimilated from African music. Doesn't answer the question as to why Westerners in Thailand do not have a "scene". Perhaps it is because their potential mating partners don't like it and they're less likely to get quality leg-over with a grumpy partner? Edited October 28, 2009 by chriswatson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwayeagle Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I have to say that Thailand really have many good musicians.right now am staying somewhere in Esan, and when they start playing the "root" music together with "western" and their own instruments,it make me in a state of mind that not even lets say Pink Floyd could do,. The playing is going deeper and deeper in my "soul".They do it for hours. Jamming jamming.Woow.What a feeling .Goood By the way,And am so sober,who needs "booze" when they give it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bina Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 It is singalong crap.......sweet and mindless crap.........nothing deep.......nothing that makes you think (maybe that is one reason for it........they don't have to think and don't like thinking). then u must have missed siliporn's song about a 15 yr old prostiture, or the 'dear john' song about a thai going over seas to work and receiveing a dear john ive found a farang that earns more then you , song... u have to really listen to words in some of the songs, and the ones in issaan are often sly stories or stolen morlum sing changed abit... as for music, go to a greenhouse around here, and u will hear thais singing together as they work. the only others ive heard doing that are the arab workers that often sing chanting work songs. dont see too many farangs singing to themselves while they work do u? and what ever happened to the grateful dead? u have an obssession with hotel california.... but, i have horrible taste in music as i also enjoy the israeli cassette/wedding singers, the quai arabic turkish crying over how horrible life is, songs, etc. i guess my tastes in music have shrunk, no matter in what language... but husband is a pue chewit fan only, and loves to play phin music on his cheapy guitar. everything western for him is either michael jackson or rocknroll.......which he detests as it is associated with clubbing style and not sanuk (drinking whiskey and singing along to cheesy issaan crying songs).. bina israel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallForeigner Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) The OP is just representing a small minority with a very special taste. He admitted that he likes music that is a bit different from what the masses like. How arrogant is it to claim that his excentric taste is the sophisticated taste? What about the taste of people who love classical music from East and West? The OP keeps repeating his views and so do I have to repeat that his view is a proof for the OP's narrowmindedness - he really believes that if someone doesn't share his taste of music then he is musically unsophisticated. How much do you really know about the diversity about Thai music? Ok, you don't like it so probably you avoid listening to it and you most probably avoid trying to understand it and find out more about it. Probably you don't even know a fraction of the tip of an iceberg about Thai music and still you claim it is not sophisticated. I agree, Thais are not sophisticated regarding your style of music - why should they be? They most probably don't like it - same as you don't like Thai music. Now it's certainly fair to say that you are not sophisticated regarding Thai music - why should you be? Now what makes you think that the Thais should be any better or any less narrowminded than you yourself?? How comes that so many people from English-speaking countries seem to believe that a country and/or its people are weird or strange or not sophisticated if the people there have different tastes, different habits, different views, different mentalities, different clubs, different understanding of fun than the majority in his own country? Edited October 28, 2009 by TallForeigner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocStrangelove Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 The farang community in Thailand lacks in a lot of areas, but not in self delusion or arrogance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswatson Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) The OP is just representing a small minority with a very special taste. He admitted that he likes music that is a bit different from what the masses like. How arrogant is it to claim that his excentric taste is the sophisticated taste? What about the taste of people who love classical music from East and West? The OP keeps repeating his views and so do I have to repeat that his view is a proof for the OP's narrowmindedness - he really believes that if someone doesn't share his taste of music then he is musically unsophisticated. How much do you really know about the diversity about Thai music? Ok, you don't like it so probably you avoid listening to it and you most probably avoid trying to understand it and find out more about it. Probably you don't even know a fraction of the tip of an iceberg about Thai music and still you claim it is not sophisticated. I agree, Thais are not sophisticated regarding your style of music - why should they be? They most probably don't like it - same as you don't like Thai music. Now it's certainly fair to say that you are not sophisticated regarding Thai music - why should you be? Now what makes you think that the Thais should be any better or any less narrowminded than you yourself?? How comes that so many people from English-speaking countries seem to believe that a country and/or its people are weird or strange or not sophisticated if the people there have different tastes, different habits, different views, different mentalities, different clubs, different understanding of fun than the majority in his own country? What the masses don't like now, they could well like in the future. Liking something before it gets popular does not make one eccentric. It makes one a tastemaker (the raison detre for some DJ's)? In the West (and nearly everywhere else), popular music has been known to challenge the establishment. This does not happen in Thailand, does it? It's not a case of which is better - Thai or Western music? That is entirely subjective. But it is objective to ask why isn't Thai music as progressive and political as the rest of the world's music can be? Even communist Russia, China, Cuba had/has it's underground that moved above ground to become popular, as have/do African states under what is practically military dictatorships (Nigeria, South Africa, Congo etc). Edited October 28, 2009 by chriswatson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiDong Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I'm neutral. Can someone post links to Thai music, on YouTube or a similar format, that they think goes against what the OP is suggesting? Something to change his mind? Again, I'm neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiDong Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 However, the OP does have a point when he refers to people with faces-like-<deleted> when something different is played in certain establishments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiDong Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I would say that my taste in music is incredibly diverse, I love to listen to many of the artists the OP has mentioned, I have also heard a very beautiful Thai song, it's a bit morose but it's beautiful to listen to(don't know the name, have heard it several times...) The OP does have a point, Thailand is not as musically diverse as other nations. Ooops! There goes my neutral stance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I lOVE Isan music and have much better taste in Western music than the OP. To each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiDong Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I lOVE Isan music and have much better taste in Western music than the OP. To each his own. Any links to YouTube vids? I'm not provoking, I know many Thai artists may not be on YouTube, but you never know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallForeigner Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 It's a case of why isn't Thai music as progressive and political as western music can be? Well, you are right - there is a difference. Personally I never like music to be political - and if that is necessary to be progressive, then I don't like music to be progressive. I just don't like to connect music with politics. For me personally music should be something that I enjoy, something that lightens me up, that makes me feel good and that makes me think or dream about nice things or that puts me into a particular mood - and as soon as politics is involved then there is nothing left I can enjoy. Please keep politics out of music!! Not only the big majority of Thai people are so fed up with politics - why then should music be political? I certainly would disagree if you mean that music needs to be political to be sophisticated. Sometimes it's good to break conventions and come up with something new - this can be progressive. But maybe people have many other things to bother about and music, or being progressive with music is much lower on the priority list than it is with people from some Western societies. But even if the music is not progressive in the sense of breaking with traditions I still believe that there is a lot of very sophisticated and wonderfully beautiful Thai music. If you believe that you are so progressive because you like music that you believe will be trend in 20 years - well, dream on, maybe you are living in the wrong time at the wrong place to enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubbaJohnny Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Nice to see seering insight not jaded yet by late nights with mellow sensation seekers. I see sophisticates like you need more than Hotel Californication OOp North at the cutting edge of International culture clubbing The DJ alternates with Jo Jackson then a bit of compulsary Bob Marley We all know that Shamen Snoop 50 cent etc leads to hard working yoof arising from Trance demanding democracy noodles with 2 eggs . The 70s rock music led to a dangerous outbreak of flared beige loons only cured by Punk and Anarchy in very small bits of UK mainly in bathing habits and outbreak of bodage attire mainly caused bY Westwood.McClaren syndrome. Fortunately pre Goth the Banarama Duran-Durex revolution swept away sense until the oasis that was the ecstasy fuelled millenium after that its all a Blur. If it all gets too much allABBA and G Michael are for sale in an MP3 scam in the bisnis ops folder here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Honestly, the OP sounds a bit arrogant. Whilst it should be a DJ's job to create according to level of audience, and even create a scene, he complains. Years ago some of my friends merged Isan folk music with jazz. Now that was really great. But maybe it's 'closing time' http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x106s6_le...sing-time_music (with original b/w video) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiDong Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 OK OK, I agree with the OP, however, I also agree with some other posters saying that maybe we need to look a bit further, dig a bit deeper, anybody got any recommendations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joints Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Even a deaf can hear that thai music is crap. But then most music around the world is crap. I agree with JR quite a lot. Thai music is sweet and easy. I know there are a few with some depth but they are hard to find. I have seen Mr Saxman a few times and he is great. I totally agree with the op and find it hard why it seems to upset so many. It is just taste after all. Everyone it entitled to his own opinion. My thai wife has lost all interest in thai music. She never listens to it and I wonder how so many of you can stand listening to thai music in your own house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswatson Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) It's a case of why isn't Thai music as progressive and political as western music can be? Well, you are right - there is a difference. Personally I never like music to be political - and if that is necessary to be progressive, then I don't like music to be progressive. I just don't like to connect music with politics. For me personally music should be something that I enjoy, something that lightens me up, that makes me feel good and that makes me think or dream about nice things or that puts me into a particular mood - and as soon as politics is involved then there is nothing left I can enjoy. Please keep politics out of music!! Not only the big majority of Thai people are so fed up with politics - why then should music be political? I certainly would disagree if you mean that music needs to be political to be sophisticated. Sometimes it's good to break conventions and come up with something new - this can be progressive. But maybe people have many other things to bother about and music, or being progressive with music is much lower on the priority list than it is with people from some Western societies. But even if the music is not progressive in the sense of breaking with traditions I still believe that there is a lot of very sophisticated and wonderfully beautiful Thai music. If you believe that you are so progressive because you like music that you believe will be trend in 20 years - well, dream on, maybe you are living in the wrong time at the wrong place to enjoy it. I am not necessarily referring to "politics" in a literal sense. Irish folk singing century old ballads about potato famines and leaving for the US is "political". Most reggae people nod their heads to is "political". Fela Kuti is "political". It's not just about Madonna scolding us from a world-stage for emitting too much carbon before dashing off in her jet or Bono talking to Bill Gates on TV whilst wearing big glasses. If you wish to be subjective, surely "Songs Of Freedom" are the most political and joyous around (I mean, what could bring more "joy"?). I am not interested in what people consider to be "sophisticated" or "beautiful" or not. As mentioned this is subjective and you or the OP will never be able to prove otherwise. However, it is not the OP's only argument. Your view though that individuals should not waste their time or are unable to enjoy listening to music that they like, just because it isn't popular yet, is bizarre to say the least. There's a billion dollar industry out there called the music business that does just that as part of their business development and financial investment. DJ's have a place in that too (see the rise of the DJ as a brand as well as being tastemakers). This in turn drives other industries from advertising to film studios to telecommunications. Perhaps your inability to embrace new music whole heartedly is why you do not appreciate that Thai music as a progressive art form itself is stuck in a rut, no matter how beautiful it looks to you staring at it as it's going round and around and around? And as already mentioned, it's not just Western music that can afford time to be progressive (in terms of adapting outside influences beyond it's immediate borders), but African music and beyond does this. Why not Thailand? It's not their "fault". Perhaps it's just because they've never been "colonized" LOL. Edited October 28, 2009 by chriswatson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyYogi Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I don't see how anyone could dis Bob Marley. He was really a gifted songwriter and spread so much joy in the world. But, I do agree that "Hotel California" sucks. As for Thai music: I love this song by Carabao http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxz9WtWj74 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhawk Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 The farang community in Thailand lacks in a lot of areas, but not in self delusion or arrogance. Have to double that a tenth. As we are guests here, we should behave like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswatson Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) LazyYogi, forgive me, but from you avatar you look like one of the late Mr. R. Marley's biggest fans Edited October 28, 2009 by chriswatson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiDong Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I don't see how anyone could dis Bob Marley. He was really a gifted songwriter and spread so much joy in the world.But, I do agree that "Hotel California" sucks. As for Thai music: I love this song by Carabao http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxz9WtWj74 Is that the one with the cowbell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyYogi Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 LazyYogi, forgive me, but from you avatar you look like one of the late Mr. R. Marley's biggest fans Haha, actually I just found that by typing "sadhu" into google image search. Is that the one with the cowbell? I don't detect any cowbell, just a epic rock song.... You think it needs more cowbell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaiDong Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 LazyYogi, forgive me, but from you avatar you look like one of the late Mr. R. Marley's biggest fans Haha, actually I just found that by typing "sadhu" into google image search. Is that the one with the cowbell? I don't detect any cowbell, just a epic rock song.... You think it needs more cowbell? As the open-minded fellow I consider myself to be, I'm listening to it now, sounds like a pink floyd rip-off which turns a bit jokey around 2:00. Anyhow, my cowbell comment was my perception that most Carabao music I've heard has a cowbell sound in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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