Enlightenment Vs Unexpended Negative Kamma?

[Brucenkhamen]

Fabianfred earlier indicated that the Buddha said there are four types of person.....

"One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark."

To "come from the light and go to the dark" would mean one had good choices & actions in the past.

What happened to go to the dark?

What makes you, Fabianfred & myself open minded about the teachings of the dhamma compared to these people?

I'm trying to make sense of "comes from the light and goes to the dark".

Is it our legacy from past choices and actions which lead to positive genetic & environmental influences or is it chance?

I'm not familiar with the passage Fred is referring to, perhaps he'd like to quote it.

If somebody is choosing dark over light it's a choice they are making now.

What in the past is causing them to make that choice now is something we can only speculate on, and such speculation is a waste of time because they can't change that in the past they can only change it now.

So your friends don't buy the whole Buddhism thing, fine no problem, however they can still make positive choices now within the confines of their own world view. So rather than worrying about getting them converted I think you are better off just being an influence for good in their lives.

[fabianfred]

We do not choose to come from light or dark nor go to light or dark.... this is all the result of past and present karma..

as for those not ready to listen.....

The Invitation to Expound the Dhamma

From the foot of the Rājāyatana tree the Buddha proceeded to the Ajapāla banyan tree and as He was absorbed in solitary meditation the following thought occurred to Him.

"This Dhamma which I have realized is indeed profound, difficult to perceive, difficult to comprehend, tranquil, exalted, not within the sphere of logic, subtle, and is to be understood by the wise. These beings are attached to material pleasures. This causally connected 'Dependent Arising' is a subject which is difficult to comprehend. And this Nibbāna -- the cessation of the conditioned, the abandoning of all passions, the destruction of craving, the non-attachment, and the cessation -- is also a matter not easily comprehensible. If I too were to teach this Dhamma, the others would not understand me. That will be wearisome to me, that will be tiresome to me."

Then these wonderful verses unheard of before occurred to the Buddha:

"With difficulty have I comprehended the Dhamma. There is no need to proclaim it now. This Dhamma is not easily understood by those who are dominated by lust and hatred. The lust-ridden, shrouded in darkness, do not see this Dhamma, which goes against the stream, which is abstruse, profound, difficult to perceive and subtle."

As the Buddha reflected thus, he was not disposed to expound the Dhamma.

Thereupon Brahma Sahampati read the thoughts of the Buddha, and, fearing that the world might perish through not hearing the Dhamma, approached Him and invited Him to teach the Dhamma thus:

"O Lord, may the Exalted One expound the Dhamma! May the Accomplished One expound the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes, who, not hearing the Dhamma, will fall away. There will be those who understand the Dhamma."

Furthermore he remarked:

"In ancient times there arose in Magadha a Dhamma, impure, thought out by the corrupted. Open this door to the Deathless State. May they hear the Dhamma understood by the Stainless One! Just as one standing on the summit of a rocky mountain would behold the people around, even so may the All-Seeing, Wise One ascend this palace of Dhamma! May the Sorrowless One look upon the people who are plunged in grief and are overcome by birth and decay!

"Rise, O Hero, victor in battle, caravan leader, debt-free One, and wander in the World! May the Exalted One teach the Dhamma! There will be those who will understand the Dhamma."

When he said so the Exalted One spoke to him thus:

"The following thought, O Brahma, occurred to me �'This Dhamma which I have comprehended is not easily understood by those who are dominated by lust and hatred. The lust-ridden, shrouded in darkness, do not see this Dhamma, which goes against the stream, which is abstruse, profound, difficult to perceive, and subtle'. As I reflected thus, my mind turned into inaction and not to the teaching of the Dhamma."

Brahmā Sahampati appealed to the Buddha for the second time and He made the same reply.

When he appealed to the Buddha for the third time, the Exalted One, out of pity for beings, surveyed the world with His Buddha-Vision.

As He surveyed thus He saw beings with little and much dust in their eyes, with keen and dull intellect, with good and bad characteristics, beings who are easy and beings who are difficult to be taught, and few others who, with fear, view evil and a life beyond.

"As in the case of a blue, red or white lotus pond, some lotuses are born in the water, grow in the water, remain immersed in the water, and thrive plunged in the water; some are born in the water, grow in the water and remain on the surface of the water; some others are born in the water, grow in the water and remain emerging out of the water, unstained by the water. Even so, as the Exalted One surveyed the world with His Buddha-Vision, He saw beings with little and much dust in their eyes, with keen and dull intellect, with good and bad characteristics, beings who are easy and difficult to be taught, and few others who, with fear, view evil and a life beyond. And He addressed the Brahmā Sahampati in a verse thus:

"Opened to them are the Doors to the Deathless State. Let those who have ears repose confidence. Being aware of the weariness, O Brahma, I did not teach amongst men this glorious and excellent Dhamma."

The delighted Brahma, thinking that he made himself the occasion for the Exalted One to expound the Dhamma respectfully saluted Him and, passing round Him to the right, disappeared immediately.

[Brucenkhamen]

We do not choose to come from light or dark nor go to light or dark.... this is all the result of past and present karma..

This is fatalism not Buddhism. If everything was laid out for us and and pre-ordained there was no choice then there'd be no point choosing to follow Buddhism, the result would be just the same.

Kamma decides what cards we are dealt, but it's our choice how we play our hand, we can keep playing our hand the same old way that never worked in the past and keep getting the same results, or we can choose to try a better way. You appear to be saying that we must keep playing our hand the same old way that never worked in the past and keep getting the same results because it's pre-ordained.

A fatalistic idea of kamma is just an excuse to abdicate responsibility, it's dollymademedoitism not Buddhism, probably it has more to do with Hinduism.

PS: thanks for sharing the passage, I'm not sure what it has to do with the question raised but it's a good example of how the Buddha chose to teach the Dhamma despite his misgivings that it might be too difficult.

Any chance you could dig out this passage?...

Buddha said there are four types of person.....

One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark...

Edited November 5, 2009 by Brucenkhamen

[Samuian]

We do not choose to come from light or dark nor go to light or dark.... this is all the result of past and present karma..

This is fatalism not Buddhism. If everything was laid out for us and and pre-ordained there was no choice then there'd be no point choosing to follow Buddhism, the result would be just the same.

Kamma decides what cards we are dealt, but it's our choice how we play our hand, we can keep playing our hand the same old way that never worked in the past and keep getting the same results, or we can choose to try a better way. You appear to be saying that we must keep playing our hand the same old way that never worked in the past and keep getting the same results because it's pre-ordained.

A fatalistic idea of kamma is just an excuse to abdicate responsibility, it's dollymademedoitism not Buddhism, probably it has more to do with Hinduism.

PS: thanks for sharing the passage, I'm not sure what it has to do with the question raised but it's a good example of how the Buddha chose to teach the Dhamma despite his misgivings that it might be too difficult.

Any chance you could dig out this passage?...

Buddha said there are four types of person.....

One coming from the light who goes to the light... comes from the light and goes to the dark......comes from the dark and goes to the light....and comes from the dark and goes to the dark...

"it's dollymademedoitism not Buddhism, probably it has more to do with Hinduism.

Buddhism has merged or even can be considered part of "Hinduism"...there is not much new in it,

the essence is very much the same as the essence of the very truth, except Buddhism has done radically away

with all the "gods, demigods and deities" and any rrituals/services to them!

* Why do you worry without cause?

* Whom do you fear without reason?

*Who can kill you? The soul is neither born, nor does it die.

* Whatever happened, happened for the good; whatever is happening, is happening for the good; whatever will happen, will also happen for the good only.

You need not have any regrets for the past. You need not worry for the future. The present is happening...

* What did you lose that you cry about?

*What did you bring with you, which you think you have lost?

*What did you produce, which you think got destroyed? You did not bring anything - whatever you have, you received from here. Whatever you have given, you have given only here. Whatever you took, you took from God. Whatever you gave, you gave to him. You came empty handed, you will leave empty handed. What is yours today, belonged to someone else yesterday, and will belong to someone else the day after tomorrow. You are mistakenly enjoying the thought that this is yours. It is this false happiness that is the cause of your sorrows.

-Thoughts on the Gita-

The Gita has to be taken allegorically and thus I am starting to become more and more convinced that much in this kind of teachings is to be taken allegorically!

Aranyakas (Part of Vedas) are generally understood or known as the "forest treaties"!

The Buddha is the ninth Avatar according to the Srimad-Mahabaghavatam, he has brought along a new concept of attaining "buddha hood" and enlightenment, done away with rituals and th concept of "God" and opened the path to all!

At least interesting to study these scriptures, which may bring along and help a deeper understanding of the mechanics of the "Path"

According to the Gita, the root of all suffering and discord is the agitation of the mind caused by selfish desire. The only way to douse the flame of desire is by simultaneously stilling the mind through self-discipline and engaging oneself in a higher form of activity.

(Meditation, Vipassana, Yoga)

However, abstinence from action is regarded as being just as detrimental as extreme indulgence.

So basically it is not that much different at all, it is like a rose or an orchid may appeal to different characters, but their very essence is and remains the same!

Many, many branches of the same tree!

And "Gita" text regarding "Karma:

"When a man dwells in his mind on the object of sense, attachment to them is produced. From attachment springs desire and from desire comes anger."

"From anger arises bewilderment, from bewilderment loss of memory; and from loss of memory, the destruction of intelligence and from the destruction of intelligence he perishes."

Edited November 5, 2009 by Samuian

[fabianfred]

I meant that past karma which brings us to a life in comfortable circumstance (from the light...the result of good past karma) or uncomfortable circumstances (from the dark...the result of bad past karma) we cannot change...it is past....

But the present karma we can change...which will cause us to go to the light (favourable rebirth) or to the dark (unfavourable rebirth)

I definately do not state that karma is fate...that is wrong view

[rockyysdt]

Samuian is correct.

Time spent on speculation loses valuable practice time and we end up searching where the answers aren't.

I meant that past karma which brings us to a life in comfortable circumstance (from the light...the result of good past karma) or uncomfortable circumstances (from the dark...the result of bad past karma) we cannot change...it is past....

But the present karma we can change...which will cause us to go to the light (favourable rebirth) or to the dark (unfavourable rebirth)

I didn't envisage "life in comfortable circumstance" as a result of "from the light".

What l saw was inheritance of genes & environment (conditioning) in which we find ourselves wiser & more open minded.

Rather than just "life in comfortable circumstance", positive conditioning would set us up to lean towards the path.

With a propensity to lean "towards the light" or if anything remain static, the odds of falling back "to the dark" would be small.

Hence my question "Why from the light to the dark"??

But as we now we know, it doesn't really matter, as long as we practice the Dhamma.

Edited November 5, 2009 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

So your friends don't buy the whole Buddhism thing, fine no problem, however they can still make positive choices now within the confines of their own world view. So rather than worrying about getting them converted I think you are better off just being an influence for good in their lives.

Never try to convert others.

I know human nature too well.

I find it interesting to observe human behaviour.

Most of us adopt many life long beliefs, many which reside in the subconscious.

They turn a deaf ear to anything which contradicts their beliefs whilst striving for anything in support.

Unless confronted with trauma or a life threatening situation most are destined to live their lives in virtual house arrest, their beliefs representing the bars.

We aren't as free as we think with leanings controlled by our genes & early life conditioning.

I often wonder what is it about our (Thai Visa Buddhist Forum members) make up which allow us to embrace the Dhamma or spend time in practice, when others reject it?

What's our reason?

[Samuian]

Samuian is correct.

Time spent on speculation loses valuable practice time and we end up searching where the answers aren't.

I meant that past karma which brings us to a life in comfortable circumstance (from the light...the result of good past karma) or uncomfortable circumstances (from the dark...the result of bad past karma) we cannot change...it is past....

But the present karma we can change...which will cause us to go to the light (favourable rebirth) or to the dark (unfavourable rebirth)

I didn't envisage "life in comfortable circumstance" as a result of "from the light".

What l saw was inheritance of genes & environment (conditioning) in which we find ourselves wiser & more open minded.

Rather than just "life in comfortable circumstance", positive conditioning would set us up to lean towards the path.

With a propensity to lean "towards the light" or if anything remain static, the odds of falling back "to the dark" would be small.

Hence my question "Why from the light to the dark"??

But as we now we know, it doesn't really matter, as long as we practice the Dhamma.

Thank you!

Even "I" posted this, it's merely a reminder - it is so, the simple truth, nothing to be added!

...."as long as we practice the Dhamma."

Yes, all answers of the universal material, immaterial worlds are within practice, there might be even answers for questions the

mind hasn't formulated yet!

BUT! - the process of thinking, this gap, this "cave", this giant "black hole" will never be (full)filled with all answers of the smartest people of the world!

It is the minds nature to be inquisitive, it's it's very existence and that is what "it" is wrestling for, day in, day out!!

It doesn't matter if a body is deformed or beaten by heavy karma, or, or, or as long as the target and full focus is set on dhamma practice,

there can't be any fail, any wrong, any miss!

Keep focused!

Bhavachakra - The (tibetan) Wheel of life - shows this truth in perfection!

At the center is Yamantakka holding a mirror where the life cycles are reflected within.

But at the right top, a monk (Buddha) points to the Manifestation of Compassion ( here Avaloketishvara) who weeps as he beholds the mangifold sufferings six ralms and 3 spheres of existence!

This represents the link between the mundane and the transcendental and so with represents the drive within the mundane to

fulfill itself in the transcendental!

I just love this simple "chart" for the deep understanding of the "Buddhas" teachings!

click here:

it works on "mouse on over".... hover the mouse over certain areas oft he pic' and on the left will be the explanation of the partof the wheel...

[camerata]

We aren't as free as we think with leanings controlled by our genes & early life conditioning.

I often wonder what is it about our (Thai Visa Buddhist Forum members) make up which allow us to embrace the Dhamma or spend time in practice, when others reject it?

What's our reason?

Broadly speaking it's "cause and effect." The more dukkha we have, the more ready we are to accept a logical system that leads to a reduction in dukkha. If you are young and indestructible you aren't likely to be receptive. If you are successful and happy you aren't likely to be receptive, etc, etc. Another aspect of "cause and effect" is what we would call "luck" - at the time you need some help with dukkha you need the solution to cross your path, be it a book, a friend, a monk, or whatever. Many of the younger Buddhists I see on other web sites have had an abusive childhood, terrible marriage or divorce. Older people, of course, are suffering from old age, sickness and approaching death. Some just happen across a good book or a Buddhist friend, others go in search of one.

When I was 21 someone gave me Alan Watts' The Way of Zen (I subsequently read Kerouac's The Dharma Bums). I didn't find it very interesting and so missed out on Buddhism for decades, and probably wasn't ready for it anyway. Oddly enough, I recently flipped through the book and I still think it's a lousy one for beginners. If only the book I'd been given had been The Mind and the Way!

[Samuian]

<---snip>

The more dukkha we have, the more ready we are to accept a logical system that leads to a reduction in dukkha. If you are young and indestructible you aren't likely to be receptive. If you are successful and happy you aren't likely to be receptive, etc, etc. Another aspect of "cause and effect" is what we would call "luck" - at the time you need some help with dukkha you need the solution to cross your path, be it a book, a friend, a monk, or whatever. Many of the younger Buddhists I see on other web sites have had an abusive childhood, terrible marriage or divorce. Older people, of course, are suffering from old age, sickness and approaching death. Some just happen across a good book or a Buddhist friend, others go in search of one.

<--snip>

Such is life!

The wheel of karma!

Even the "lucky ones" are subject to suffering, it does take some good observance,

not even "deep insight" to realize what it is all about!

There is every reason to believe that "this is what we are here for!"

The story of the Lotus - from the ponds muddy depths in to the light, standing high above "it all"!

However I consider this all "intellectual speculation"!

to everyone intentional interested:

"Practice, practice, practice, no one, nothing else can get "you" there,

once it is inside as bright or brighter then outside, one has set foot firmly onto the "Path"!

keep on going', sit comfortably, breathing in, breathing out, watch the breath and let thoughts come and go and keep watching - breathe!

"pull this down"into every task, walking, swimming, cooking, gardening, clipping flowers....

Who watches the doer do?

Don't get fluttered', distracted by the "coordinates, maps, directions" etc. idle talk, intellectual constructions - it's the mind - GO!