Want Old Wife Out As Master In Tabien Baan And More…

[MikeyIdea]

It's a bit complicated, please read the whole thing before answering

My old wife bought a house in Suttisarn in Bangkok some 15 years ago that was on leased land.

I vaguely remember problems at the Amphor, something about that tabieen baan was blank (no one in) or maybe no owner of the house and we had to get the original purchase agreement from when the house was built to be able to get her name in. If this means that my old wife is also registered as house owner or not I have no idea.

My old wife and I have divorced since long, she moved out since I had paid, but her name is in the blue tabien baan book as master of the house (the one deciding who comes in) and she still refuses to move out

Life goes on, I re-married (not legally registered), got a child, the land lease expired and I bought the land in my daughters name (5 years old). I confirm, Chanoote to din says my daughters name as owner and I am Poo suu (help buy). I have certificate of fathership and is legal father of course

The blue tabieen baan book shows my old wife as master at the top and my new wife is second, my daughter is the third person in the book.

The relationship with my daughters mother is turning sour so in no way do I want to have her name as master of my daughers house, then I'd rather keep my old wife there… but what I most of all would like is of course to, somehow, become master of my daughters house myself.

Please confirm my "I suppose(s)" below

I suppose that the owner of the land (and if owner is a minor, her guardians) can force the master out

I suppose that owner of land doesn't necessarily have to be same as owner of house

What happens if owner of the land change, as in this case, if owner of house was my old wife, will she still be owner? Who owns the house?

I suppose I as a foreigner can be owner of a house (but not land), how would I do that? What would I need?

What's a yellow book? Can I somehow be master of my daughers house using it?

I know that since owner of land is a minor, I have to go to juvenile court to take away assets from her, but what if owner of the house is my old wife, can I get her out and get in myself without juvenile court (which the mother would block)?

What a mess

Grateful for advice

Michael

Edited October 30, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[stgrhe]

My old wife bought a house in Suttisarn in Bangkok some 15 years ago that was on leased land.

I vaguely remember problems at the Amphor, something about that tabieen baan was blank (no one in) or maybe no owner of the house and we had to get the original purchase agreement from when the house was built to be able to get her name in. If this means that my old wife is also registered as house owner or not I have no idea.

Hi Mike, the name in the Tabien Baan are only the name of the people having residence there hand has nothing to do with the ownership of the house. The ownership can be proved with the original purchase/construction contract or the land title if the house was registered on the land title document.

Talk to the local Tessaban about the problem. They can probably sort it out nicely if they get a small donation. Actually, there is no requirement that the Tabien Baan must have a name in it.

[InterestedObserver]

1. Tabien Baan has nothing to do with house ownership, it only establish who legally lives there.

2. The original land lease expired, so the house ownership should have reverted back to the original land owner.

3. Land is now in daughters name, as confirmed by Chanote. There is no current lease registered on the Chanote. There is no sale agreement of the house registered on the Chanote.

4. Your daughter now controls the house, since it is on her land and nobody else has a valid claim.

5. The original builder of the house has no further claim to the house since he/she sold the property to your daughter.

6. But your daughter is a minor and needs the Courts permission to exercise her rights over the land.

7. In theory your daughter could petition the Courts for permission to have the Amphur issue a new Tabien Baan with her, your daughter, as 'master'. How that would play out in court is anybodies guess.

8. You cannot be the 'master' in a blue Tabien Baan, although the rules may have recently changed or been amended. In any case you do not have land rights (lease or usufruct) so cannot be the 'master' of the property in question..

9. You could get a yellow Tabien Baan for yourself as a resident at that address, but of no help in this situation.

10. You could get your daughter to give you a lifetime usufruct for the property, which you should have done in the first place. You would then control everything and not have to worry about wives, current or ex. Don't know how that would play out in court either.

Just my interpretation of this real life story.

Edited November 2, 2009 by InterestedObserver

[katabeachbum]

My old wife bought a house in Suttisarn in Bangkok some 15 years ago that was on leased land.

I vaguely remember problems at the Amphor, something about that tabieen baan was blank (no one in) or maybe no owner of the house and we had to get the original purchase agreement from when the house was built to be able to get her name in. If this means that my old wife is also registered as house owner or not I have no idea.

Hi Mike, the name in the Tabien Baan are only the name of the people having residence there hand has nothing to do with the ownership of the house. The ownership can be proved with the original purchase/construction contract or the land title if the house was registered on the land title document.

Talk to the local Tessaban about the problem. They can probably sort it out nicely if they get a small donation. Actually, there is no requirement that the Tabien Baan must have a name in it.

The new owner of the property can demand Tessabaan to remove all registered residents in Tabien Baan. Normally takes 6 months. Or you can loose tabien baan and request fo a new one (30 baht). Show proof of ownership (land deed) and the new tabien baan should be without residents. Keep it that way, and get a yellow book for yourself based on the clear tabien baan.

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks for explanations

I am actually very pleased with having a minor being the owner, I can find no safer way to protect my daughters future should shit start to fly (which it already has...), a courts permission is needed to sell and the mother is hardly going to be able to fool them. Thai family very much so looks at the well being of the child.

10. You could get your daughter to give you a lifetime usufruct for the property, which you should have done in the first place.

Lease or usufruct is out-of-question, I tried getting it when I bought the land and the owner being a minor means that I first must take it to court before I can get it. It's easy to give to children and difficult to take away. The court won't allow it. That's OK since it works for mummy as well as for Daddy.

What I do have is a 3-year lease contract that the childs father and mother both signed, that's if I understand it correctly maximum that I can get without taking it to court, owner being a minor. There are 2 years left and during that time, I am 100% safe. If I can get the mother to sign again is a different matter... Am I correct that 3 years is maximum without going to court?

Thanks for explanation that whatever was the case before, house is now owned by the owner of the land>

Michael

[InterestedObserver]

Am I correct that 3 years is maximum without going to court?

Three (3) years is the maximum lease period you can have before the lease has to be registered with the land office and entered on the Chanote. But wait a minute, what did you lease 'that the childs father and mother both signed'? If you leased the house we are talking about, then I think that you are on shaky legal ground. This story is starting to confuse me, I thought you were the father. How can you lease something from yourself, not to mention the fact that the legal owner is a minor under court supervision when it comes to the property. Or am I missing something? Why do you need a lease to remain in the house in the first place?

Edited November 2, 2009 by InterestedObserver

[MikeyIdea]

Am I correct that 3 years is maximum without going to court?

Three (3) years is the maximum lease period you can have before the lease has to be registered with the land office and entered on the Chanote. But wait a minute, what did you lease 'that the childs father and mother both signed'? If you leased the house we are talking about, then I think that you are on shaky legal ground. This story is starting to confuse me, I thought you were the father. How can you lease something from yourself, not to mention the fact that the legal owner is a minor under court supervision when it comes to the property. Or am I missing something? Why do you need a lease to remain in the house in the first place?

OK, here comes clarifications

What I and the mother signed was a 3 year lease on the land that the CHILD grants daddy, and as guardians both mummy and daddy signed this. If it works then it gives daddy the right to order mummy to leave and if a custody court case were to go very wrong, then mummy doesn't have a house to live in with our daughter until the lease expires. Looking strictly to the well-being of the child, daddy and the old home could be more attractive than mummy and a small bed-sitter. I can't believe that it would ever happen considering how many times I have been beaten, kicked, spit on etc. but women out for revenge tend to find unknown resources so you never know. To answer your question: I don't need to lease to remain in the house now, but I may very well soon be…

The lawyer I used back then thought (but his own words were also – not certain) that it would hold in a Thai court. Besides, it could take so long to go to court to break it that the lease would be over by then anyway.

"the legal owner is a minor under court supervision when it comes to the property" – Yes, and I am not sure if the lease contract is valid, I only think so because the lawyer thought so… What do you think?

Michael

Edited November 4, 2009 by MikeyIdea

[InterestedObserver]

"the legal owner is a minor under court supervision when it comes to the property" – Yes, and I am not sure if the lease contract is valid, I only think so because the lawyer thought so… What do you think?

1. Clearly the minor childs parents, exercising parental power, have the legal authority to lease the property for a period of up to three (3) years without the land office or court becoming involved. What I question is the legal validity of mummy and daddy, on the childs behalf, leasing the property to daddy and then daddy kicking mummy out, as you seem to be getting ready to do. It is clearly a conflict of interest.

2. You need to loose the blue Tabien Baan and apply for a new one, hopefully with your daughter listed as 'master' and you listed on the blue Tabien Baan as her father. Other posters have reported being able to get their names in the blue book as their son or daughters father.

3. Failing that, you need to get a yellow Tabien Baan allowing you to legally live at that address as father of your daughter .

4. The lease will expire before any divorce and/or custody battle could be decided in court, then what?

Edited November 4, 2009 by InterestedObserver

[MikeyIdea]

"the legal owner is a minor under court supervision when it comes to the property" – Yes, and I am not sure if the lease contract is valid, I only think so because the lawyer thought so… What do you think?

1. Clearly the minor childs parents, exercising parental power, have the legal authority to lease the property for a period of up to three (3) years without the land office or court becoming involved. What I question is the legal validity of mummy and daddy, on the childs behalf, leasing the property to daddy and then daddy kicking mummy out, as you seem to be getting ready to do. It is clearly a conflict of interest.

2. You need to loose the blue Tabien Baan and apply for a new one, hopefully with your daughter listed as 'master' and you listed on the blue Tabien Baan as her father. Other posters have reported being able to get their names in the blue book as their son or daughters father.

3. Failing that, you need to get a yellow Tabien Baan allowing you to legally live at that address as father of your daughter .

4. The lease will expire before any divorce and/or custody battle could be decided in court, then what?

1) Conflict of interest it is but it is also very much taking the best interest of the child into consideration. I don’t hate the mother in any way, it is only that it is bad for our child to live in an environment where you don’t know from one minute to another if mummy’s reaction is going to be showing aggression that would make a swarm of African killer bees green of envy or something more civilised… And I am getting bored with living in an environment like that

2) I asked the lawyer about getting a minor in as master and he said No, not allowed. Don’t trust lawyers knowledge in Thailand though so is it true? Heard of any cases where minor is master?

3) Does having your name in tabien baan legally give you the right to live in the house to the extent that it can be used as argument to stay? I didn’t think it did

4) Any advice?

[InterestedObserver]

3) Does having your name in tabien baan legally give you the right to live in the house to the extent that it can be used as argument to stay? I didn't think it did

1. Name in Tabien Baan as childs father gives you as much legal right as the mother to live there.

2. Best interests of the child is for the Court to decide.

3. Divorce with sole custody would sort things out. Are you sure you would win?